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On November 06 2010 10:22 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 10:18 LunarDestiny wrote:On November 06 2010 10:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote: im 100% town, the night post proved it
the only way I would believe infinitestory is 100% town is if coagulation was the blue retard. the fact that coag was red says nothing. I missed that night post. Where was it? bottom of page 155 it says that Lexpar's role is Careful Doctor, which will die if he protects a red Lexpar stated that if he died night 1, then DrH is red... which means Lexpar probably protected DrH and survived correct
lexpar protected me on the first night, didn't die as a result, and then he said I'm confirmed town but everyone was distrustful of him (to be expected)
his role is now confirmed and combined with the million other things i've done to show myself as pro town you would have to be pants on head retarded to doubt me at this point
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United States4053 Posts
On November 06 2010 10:23 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 10:21 DoctorHelvetica wrote: because i think you faked your role and your posts still seem scummy to me
let me read through your posts first geez i thought either you or pandain were mafia on day 2 when my poke didn't come through I'm more inclined to believe that you were mafia based on the posting but when you claimed DT and got coagulation killed I rejected the notion until I realized it is an easy bus and you did absolutely nothing to confirm your role and there are things about your roleclaim that make me think its more likely a lie than the truth like the rng check and the 1/4th chance versus 10%, it's inconsistent with the other known ADD role in the game not to mention it's awfully convenient that the results returned were the roles and alignments of a player any mafia would know whether or not he had DT powers, you had no information that every mafia didn't already have just information town didn't necessarily have the only reason it was 1/4 is because it randomly selects a member from the game at the time (beginning of night 2), there were 7 reds and 21 blues hence, probability of finding a red is 7/28 = 1/4
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On November 06 2010 10:24 DCLXVI wrote: Wow so DocH says: "I.S. is my #1 suspect" --why? "Wait, let me read through his posts to find out" He faked his role by offering up another mafia teammate, sure. The way someone becomes #1 suspect is to find mafia. What is this shit? simple bus and I thought his posting was scummy earlier. he was my #1 scumsuspect until he outed coagulation, that unconfirmable and inconsistent roleclaim doesn't change shit
i'll analyse him, i never back down on my word
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On November 06 2010 10:24 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 10:23 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On November 06 2010 10:21 DoctorHelvetica wrote: because i think you faked your role and your posts still seem scummy to me
let me read through your posts first geez i thought either you or pandain were mafia on day 2 when my poke didn't come through I'm more inclined to believe that you were mafia based on the posting but when you claimed DT and got coagulation killed I rejected the notion until I realized it is an easy bus and you did absolutely nothing to confirm your role and there are things about your roleclaim that make me think its more likely a lie than the truth like the rng check and the 1/4th chance versus 10%, it's inconsistent with the other known ADD role in the game not to mention it's awfully convenient that the results returned were the roles and alignments of a player any mafia would know whether or not he had DT powers, you had no information that every mafia didn't already have just information town didn't necessarily have the only reason it was 1/4 is because it randomly selects a member from the game at the time (beginning of night 2), there were 7 reds and 21 blues hence, probability of finding a red is 7/28 = 1/4
you said it had a 1/4th chance of failure if i am remembering correctly
do you not remember the way the role you faked works?
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United States4053 Posts
On November 06 2010 10:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 10:24 infinitestory wrote:On November 06 2010 10:23 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On November 06 2010 10:21 DoctorHelvetica wrote: because i think you faked your role and your posts still seem scummy to me
let me read through your posts first geez i thought either you or pandain were mafia on day 2 when my poke didn't come through I'm more inclined to believe that you were mafia based on the posting but when you claimed DT and got coagulation killed I rejected the notion until I realized it is an easy bus and you did absolutely nothing to confirm your role and there are things about your roleclaim that make me think its more likely a lie than the truth like the rng check and the 1/4th chance versus 10%, it's inconsistent with the other known ADD role in the game not to mention it's awfully convenient that the results returned were the roles and alignments of a player any mafia would know whether or not he had DT powers, you had no information that every mafia didn't already have just information town didn't necessarily have the only reason it was 1/4 is because it randomly selects a member from the game at the time (beginning of night 2), there were 7 reds and 21 blues hence, probability of finding a red is 7/28 = 1/4 you said it had a 1/4th chance of failure if i am remembering correctly do you not remember the way the role you faked works? please show me the post where i said it had a 1/4 chance of failure
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So infinitestory fake claim to kill coag? Damn, that is some high level mafia play...
Shouldn't we keep it real, and play with logic.
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You're right, I remembered incorrectly
"I get a RNG'd target to check every night. My chances of finding a red every night so far have been about 1 in 4, so I figured if I caught a scum I would consider claiming the very next day. Night 1 I got annul (and ended up playing on his tire swing all night >____> while getting 0 information). Night 2 I got Coagulation. Excellllent~ Coagulation is a mafia, and his role is Mafia Retard (I giggled when I read it too). I have no idea what the role does, since DT checks don't give the full role PM."
it seems oddly inconsistent with the mechanics of ADD Medic which had some sort of nonexistent failure mechanics
the point is no one should say you are "confirmed town" right now.
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On November 06 2010 10:28 LunarDestiny wrote: So infinitestory fake claim to kill coag? Damn, that is some high level mafia play...
Shouldn't we keep it real, and play with logic. no, buses happen all the time
i've done them as mafia before. it isn't high level, mafia talk about starting on the first day. what circumstances should they bus, who should they bus if they have to, etc.
in micro mafia i almost bus'd drag_ on the first day just so people would think I'm town
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oh shit i forgot about infinitestories early fish
nevermind, not a bus
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Yeah, just checked lexpar's post history. He posted a bunch about it too. DrH is confirmed unless he was bussed N1.
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On November 06 2010 10:10 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 09:42 infinitestory wrote:On November 06 2010 09:05 L wrote: Bomb* If the MH loses a bomb because the person it's on is lynched, does he get it back? Should there be one in the game, then yes. They would get their bomb back. wait what
changing my vote to coag
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United States4053 Posts
On November 06 2010 10:58 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 10:10 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On November 06 2010 09:42 infinitestory wrote:On November 06 2010 09:05 L wrote: Bomb* If the MH loses a bomb because the person it's on is lynched, does he get it back? Should there be one in the game, then yes. They would get their bomb back. wait what changing my vote to coag you are a bit late
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On November 06 2010 10:58 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 10:10 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On November 06 2010 09:42 infinitestory wrote:On November 06 2010 09:05 L wrote: Bomb* If the MH loses a bomb because the person it's on is lynched, does he get it back? Should there be one in the game, then yes. They would get their bomb back. wait what changing my vote to coag WTF, you were planning to change your vote to coag after learning that Mad Hatter will lose their bomb if coag is lynched?
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We need someone who is good at mafia but terrible at manipulation.
pandain is probably the best candidate under these parameters. he is an extremely organized and tactical scum hunter his analyses skills are good and he has a good level head about what needs to be done.
i have also noticed that he is a terrible lier and his posting style makes his motives extremely transparent. this would make it much easier for us to spot a slip up if he is mafia. and greatly increases the chances that he would fail at getting away with scum moves if it turns out he is a red.
DocH You basically said YOU WILL PROVE your town and then basically said "MAYBE DEPENDING ON WHAT HAPPENS I WILL PROVE IT IM NOT SURE"
I dont think pandain would be the greatest mayor However i would rather pandain then Annul and his manipulation if he is RED and i would rather pandain then fishbowl and his "EXTREMELY SHY?? circle" I would really really like for you to make me feel comfortable voting for you for mayor. but your doing a bad job so far.
Now i am sticking with pandain because he is most likely not a red trying to gain control of town based on the fact that he is not campaigning relentlessly.
Pandain is more then capable of using what tools he has at his disposal to help coordinate a good town strategy and i doubt he would run for mayor if he thought his role wasnt capable of contributing greatly as mayor.. and I FEEL HE is the most TRUSTWORTHY candidate so far BASED ON HIS ACTIONS IN THIS GAME. I Dont get the same feeling from you when your Threatening "FOS" On anyone that doesnt vote you..
IM NOT VOTING on WHOS PROMISING SOME BULLSHIT IF THEY GET MAYOR (town circle?? where??) IM VOTING ON WHO I TRUST THE MOST IN MY GUT
IS THAT REASON ENOUGH?
Dodging a lynch sounds alot like a scum role.. anyone else think so?
OK i have caught up on reading
1. DOCH naturally I still cant trust you 100% until I can see some of your claims of verifying yourself come to light. I really hope your not a red otherwise we may as well just bend over and let you get to fucking.
2. you have a moron for a bodyguard
3. Node is asking for invites to the circle? i would think twice before letting people who request in. looks like 1 red was already in the circle. he dies and now Node starts asking to get in?(could be mafia trying to get a man back inside) looks bad but not gonna dwell on it too much yet..
4. pandain I dunno what the hell you are talking about. Im not gonna keep my mouth shut if someone looks scummy just because they are not around to defend themselves.
dt needs to investigate pandain for sure considering he was running for mayor.
also the other people who wanted elected mayor bumatlarge fishball annul ghrur glasse node
also worth keeping an eye on node who is asking for people to invite him into circle.
well regardless we need to get to the bottom of the youngminii thing somehow i think thats the point hes trying to make. i still feel like there is a good possibility that his ability is either a red ability or he was saved by a red allie. i dont want this to just blow under the radar
@Glasse no your right. for the most part however your "cat like" actions are more along the lines of when the cat shits in your sock drawer. the sock drawer being this thread. Not sure if anybody analyzed Coagulation's post history extensively before, but now that he's flipped scum I believe it's worthwhile. I did not quote all of his posts but I did quote all relevant to my conclusions. Also Coag got the 1337 post.
Ok so solely based off of Coagulation's post history I've discerned the following.
1. Pandain is almost certainly scum (common opinion at this point). Coagulation supports Pandain all throughout his election and shits on the other candidates. I only quoted some of his posts but he has maaany in support of Pandain.
2. Doctor Helvetica is almost certainly innocent. Coagulation spent the entire thread accusing DocH. If he was a fellow scum then Coagulation, as the prime accuser, might have single handedly caused DocH to get lyched due to all of his attacks. Thus, the probability is low.
3. Youngminii is almost certainly town. Coag again attacks him repeatedly throughout the thread and always tries to draw attention to him.
4. Node is probably innocent and not lying. Although I thought he was suspicious before, Node's credibility is questioned by Coag more than once in the thread.
5. Glasse is probably town aligned. He badmouths Glasse a few times in the thread. Not very strong but there's nothing on Glasse to prove otherwise.
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On November 06 2010 11:02 Nemesis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 10:58 youngminii wrote:On November 06 2010 10:10 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On November 06 2010 09:42 infinitestory wrote:On November 06 2010 09:05 L wrote: Bomb* If the MH loses a bomb because the person it's on is lynched, does he get it back? Should there be one in the game, then yes. They would get their bomb back. wait what changing my vote to coag WTF, you were planning to change your vote to coag after learning that Mad Hatter will lose their bomb if coag is lynched? Edit: Nvm, it seems I didn't read the post properly
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Just wondering wouldn't DCL know that it would come back?
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United States4053 Posts
On November 06 2010 11:02 Hyperbola wrote:Show nested quote +We need someone who is good at mafia but terrible at manipulation.
pandain is probably the best candidate under these parameters. he is an extremely organized and tactical scum hunter his analyses skills are good and he has a good level head about what needs to be done.
i have also noticed that he is a terrible lier and his posting style makes his motives extremely transparent. this would make it much easier for us to spot a slip up if he is mafia. and greatly increases the chances that he would fail at getting away with scum moves if it turns out he is a red. Show nested quote + DocH You basically said YOU WILL PROVE your town and then basically said "MAYBE DEPENDING ON WHAT HAPPENS I WILL PROVE IT IM NOT SURE"
I dont think pandain would be the greatest mayor However i would rather pandain then Annul and his manipulation if he is RED and i would rather pandain then fishbowl and his "EXTREMELY SHY?? circle" I would really really like for you to make me feel comfortable voting for you for mayor. but your doing a bad job so far. Show nested quote + Now i am sticking with pandain because he is most likely not a red trying to gain control of town based on the fact that he is not campaigning relentlessly.
Pandain is more then capable of using what tools he has at his disposal to help coordinate a good town strategy and i doubt he would run for mayor if he thought his role wasnt capable of contributing greatly as mayor.. and I FEEL HE is the most TRUSTWORTHY candidate so far BASED ON HIS ACTIONS IN THIS GAME. I Dont get the same feeling from you when your Threatening "FOS" On anyone that doesnt vote you..
IM NOT VOTING on WHOS PROMISING SOME BULLSHIT IF THEY GET MAYOR (town circle?? where??) IM VOTING ON WHO I TRUST THE MOST IN MY GUT
IS THAT REASON ENOUGH? Show nested quote + OK i have caught up on reading
1. DOCH naturally I still cant trust you 100% until I can see some of your claims of verifying yourself come to light. I really hope your not a red otherwise we may as well just bend over and let you get to fucking.
2. you have a moron for a bodyguard
3. Node is asking for invites to the circle? i would think twice before letting people who request in. looks like 1 red was already in the circle. he dies and now Node starts asking to get in?(could be mafia trying to get a man back inside) looks bad but not gonna dwell on it too much yet..
4. pandain I dunno what the hell you are talking about. Im not gonna keep my mouth shut if someone looks scummy just because they are not around to defend themselves. Show nested quote + dt needs to investigate pandain for sure considering he was running for mayor.
also the other people who wanted elected mayor bumatlarge fishball annul ghrur glasse node
also worth keeping an eye on node who is asking for people to invite him into circle. Show nested quote + well regardless we need to get to the bottom of the youngminii thing somehow i think thats the point hes trying to make. i still feel like there is a good possibility that his ability is either a red ability or he was saved by a red allie. i dont want this to just blow under the radar Show nested quote + @Glasse no your right. for the most part however your "cat like" actions are more along the lines of when the cat shits in your sock drawer. the sock drawer being this thread. Not sure if anybody analyzed Coagulation's post history extensively before, but now that he's flipped scum I believe it's worthwhile. I did not quote all of his posts but I did quote all relevant to my conclusions. Also Coag got the 1337 post. Ok so solely based off of Coagulation's post history I've discerned the following. 1. Pandain is almost certainly scum (common opinion at this point). Coagulation supports Pandain all throughout his election and shits on the other candidates. I only quoted some of his posts but he has maaany in support of Pandain. 2. Doctor Helvetica is almost certainly innocent. Coagulation spent the entire thread accusing DocH. If he was a fellow scum then Coagulation, as the prime accuser, might have single handedly caused DocH to get lyched due to all of his attacks. Thus, the probability is low. 3. Youngminii is almost certainly town. Coag again attacks him repeatedly throughout the thread and always tries to draw attention to him. 4. Node is probably innocent and not lying. Although I thought he was suspicious before, Node's credibility is questioned by Coag more than once in the thread. 5. Glasse is probably town aligned. He badmouths Glasse a few times in the thread. Not very strong but there's nothing on Glasse to prove otherwise.
just at a glance, one major thing wrong is that if X shows animosity towards Y, that doesn't mean X and Y are opposite alignments. Same if X shows support for Y, that doesn't mean they're the same alignment. This is especially relevant for points 4 and 5 IMO
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On November 06 2010 11:06 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 11:02 Hyperbola wrote:We need someone who is good at mafia but terrible at manipulation.
pandain is probably the best candidate under these parameters. he is an extremely organized and tactical scum hunter his analyses skills are good and he has a good level head about what needs to be done.
i have also noticed that he is a terrible lier and his posting style makes his motives extremely transparent. this would make it much easier for us to spot a slip up if he is mafia. and greatly increases the chances that he would fail at getting away with scum moves if it turns out he is a red. DocH You basically said YOU WILL PROVE your town and then basically said "MAYBE DEPENDING ON WHAT HAPPENS I WILL PROVE IT IM NOT SURE"
I dont think pandain would be the greatest mayor However i would rather pandain then Annul and his manipulation if he is RED and i would rather pandain then fishbowl and his "EXTREMELY SHY?? circle" I would really really like for you to make me feel comfortable voting for you for mayor. but your doing a bad job so far. Now i am sticking with pandain because he is most likely not a red trying to gain control of town based on the fact that he is not campaigning relentlessly.
Pandain is more then capable of using what tools he has at his disposal to help coordinate a good town strategy and i doubt he would run for mayor if he thought his role wasnt capable of contributing greatly as mayor.. and I FEEL HE is the most TRUSTWORTHY candidate so far BASED ON HIS ACTIONS IN THIS GAME. I Dont get the same feeling from you when your Threatening "FOS" On anyone that doesnt vote you..
IM NOT VOTING on WHOS PROMISING SOME BULLSHIT IF THEY GET MAYOR (town circle?? where??) IM VOTING ON WHO I TRUST THE MOST IN MY GUT
IS THAT REASON ENOUGH? Dodging a lynch sounds alot like a scum role.. anyone else think so? OK i have caught up on reading
1. DOCH naturally I still cant trust you 100% until I can see some of your claims of verifying yourself come to light. I really hope your not a red otherwise we may as well just bend over and let you get to fucking.
2. you have a moron for a bodyguard
3. Node is asking for invites to the circle? i would think twice before letting people who request in. looks like 1 red was already in the circle. he dies and now Node starts asking to get in?(could be mafia trying to get a man back inside) looks bad but not gonna dwell on it too much yet..
4. pandain I dunno what the hell you are talking about. Im not gonna keep my mouth shut if someone looks scummy just because they are not around to defend themselves. dt needs to investigate pandain for sure considering he was running for mayor.
also the other people who wanted elected mayor bumatlarge fishball annul ghrur glasse node
also worth keeping an eye on node who is asking for people to invite him into circle. well regardless we need to get to the bottom of the youngminii thing somehow i think thats the point hes trying to make. i still feel like there is a good possibility that his ability is either a red ability or he was saved by a red allie. i dont want this to just blow under the radar @Glasse no your right. for the most part however your "cat like" actions are more along the lines of when the cat shits in your sock drawer. the sock drawer being this thread. Not sure if anybody analyzed Coagulation's post history extensively before, but now that he's flipped scum I believe it's worthwhile. I did not quote all of his posts but I did quote all relevant to my conclusions. Also Coag got the 1337 post. Ok so solely based off of Coagulation's post history I've discerned the following. 1. Pandain is almost certainly scum (common opinion at this point). Coagulation supports Pandain all throughout his election and shits on the other candidates. I only quoted some of his posts but he has maaany in support of Pandain. 2. Doctor Helvetica is almost certainly innocent. Coagulation spent the entire thread accusing DocH. If he was a fellow scum then Coagulation, as the prime accuser, might have single handedly caused DocH to get lyched due to all of his attacks. Thus, the probability is low. 3. Youngminii is almost certainly town. Coag again attacks him repeatedly throughout the thread and always tries to draw attention to him. 4. Node is probably innocent and not lying. Although I thought he was suspicious before, Node's credibility is questioned by Coag more than once in the thread. 5. Glasse is probably town aligned. He badmouths Glasse a few times in the thread. Not very strong but there's nothing on Glasse to prove otherwise. just at a glance, one major thing wrong is that if X shows animosity towards Y, that doesn't mean X and Y are opposite alignments. Same if X shows support for Y, that doesn't mean they're the same alignment. This is especially relevant for points 4 and 5 IMO I actually considered this. Not to be insulting to Coagulation, but I didn't think him the type of player to use reverse logic as you are suggesting. As for number 4, he has a decent amount of posts against Node to discourage him from joining the mailman circle and questions his credibility. I don't think someone would do that as reverse psychology for a role as sensitive as Node's.
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On November 06 2010 11:11 Hyperbola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 11:06 infinitestory wrote:On November 06 2010 11:02 Hyperbola wrote:We need someone who is good at mafia but terrible at manipulation.
pandain is probably the best candidate under these parameters. he is an extremely organized and tactical scum hunter his analyses skills are good and he has a good level head about what needs to be done.
i have also noticed that he is a terrible lier and his posting style makes his motives extremely transparent. this would make it much easier for us to spot a slip up if he is mafia. and greatly increases the chances that he would fail at getting away with scum moves if it turns out he is a red. DocH You basically said YOU WILL PROVE your town and then basically said "MAYBE DEPENDING ON WHAT HAPPENS I WILL PROVE IT IM NOT SURE"
I dont think pandain would be the greatest mayor However i would rather pandain then Annul and his manipulation if he is RED and i would rather pandain then fishbowl and his "EXTREMELY SHY?? circle" I would really really like for you to make me feel comfortable voting for you for mayor. but your doing a bad job so far. Now i am sticking with pandain because he is most likely not a red trying to gain control of town based on the fact that he is not campaigning relentlessly.
Pandain is more then capable of using what tools he has at his disposal to help coordinate a good town strategy and i doubt he would run for mayor if he thought his role wasnt capable of contributing greatly as mayor.. and I FEEL HE is the most TRUSTWORTHY candidate so far BASED ON HIS ACTIONS IN THIS GAME. I Dont get the same feeling from you when your Threatening "FOS" On anyone that doesnt vote you..
IM NOT VOTING on WHOS PROMISING SOME BULLSHIT IF THEY GET MAYOR (town circle?? where??) IM VOTING ON WHO I TRUST THE MOST IN MY GUT
IS THAT REASON ENOUGH? Dodging a lynch sounds alot like a scum role.. anyone else think so? OK i have caught up on reading
1. DOCH naturally I still cant trust you 100% until I can see some of your claims of verifying yourself come to light. I really hope your not a red otherwise we may as well just bend over and let you get to fucking.
2. you have a moron for a bodyguard
3. Node is asking for invites to the circle? i would think twice before letting people who request in. looks like 1 red was already in the circle. he dies and now Node starts asking to get in?(could be mafia trying to get a man back inside) looks bad but not gonna dwell on it too much yet..
4. pandain I dunno what the hell you are talking about. Im not gonna keep my mouth shut if someone looks scummy just because they are not around to defend themselves. dt needs to investigate pandain for sure considering he was running for mayor.
also the other people who wanted elected mayor bumatlarge fishball annul ghrur glasse node
also worth keeping an eye on node who is asking for people to invite him into circle. well regardless we need to get to the bottom of the youngminii thing somehow i think thats the point hes trying to make. i still feel like there is a good possibility that his ability is either a red ability or he was saved by a red allie. i dont want this to just blow under the radar @Glasse no your right. for the most part however your "cat like" actions are more along the lines of when the cat shits in your sock drawer. the sock drawer being this thread. Not sure if anybody analyzed Coagulation's post history extensively before, but now that he's flipped scum I believe it's worthwhile. I did not quote all of his posts but I did quote all relevant to my conclusions. Also Coag got the 1337 post. Ok so solely based off of Coagulation's post history I've discerned the following. 1. Pandain is almost certainly scum (common opinion at this point). Coagulation supports Pandain all throughout his election and shits on the other candidates. I only quoted some of his posts but he has maaany in support of Pandain. 2. Doctor Helvetica is almost certainly innocent. Coagulation spent the entire thread accusing DocH. If he was a fellow scum then Coagulation, as the prime accuser, might have single handedly caused DocH to get lyched due to all of his attacks. Thus, the probability is low. 3. Youngminii is almost certainly town. Coag again attacks him repeatedly throughout the thread and always tries to draw attention to him. 4. Node is probably innocent and not lying. Although I thought he was suspicious before, Node's credibility is questioned by Coag more than once in the thread. 5. Glasse is probably town aligned. He badmouths Glasse a few times in the thread. Not very strong but there's nothing on Glasse to prove otherwise. just at a glance, one major thing wrong is that if X shows animosity towards Y, that doesn't mean X and Y are opposite alignments. Same if X shows support for Y, that doesn't mean they're the same alignment. This is especially relevant for points 4 and 5 IMO I actually considered this. Not to be insulting to Coagulation, but I didn't think him the type of player to use reverse logic as you are suggesting. As for number 4, he has a decent amount of posts against Node to discourage him from joining the mailman circle and questions his credibility. I don't think someone would do that as reverse psychology for a role as sensitive as Node's. That is called WIFOM. Remember that Coag is not alone in his posting. So even if he might not be smart enough to think of that himself, his mafia friends probably are and could have easily told him to do so.
I don't think we can conclude anything based on coag's post at this point.
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coagulation isn't good enough to play mind games
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