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I agree with Tree Hugger 100%
We always make the wrong decision by shunning people who make "bad plans" (aka lynching them).
We should be looking for more suspicious players, and right now Chezinu, Foolishness and YM both come to mind. It's obvious that something fishy is going on. I don't know if Chezinu is trying to bait certain players or if he's just playing target practice as a townie, it just doesn't add up.
Youngminii is doing what I have done a few times myself, and I can understand his frustration, but it puts you on the spotlight very easily. There's a difference between a rational argument and an irrational bread crumbing war. The latter almost never works and you will never get "mafia" to jump on you. Typically it turns out to be the town. This is good because you "know" that they are probably pro-town, but you're painting a LARGE target on your back.
I'm a bit disturbed over this hit Foolishness took last night. We don't actually know if he took a hit, and though the numbers make sense, it could be a setup. We could be allowing a trap to manifest itself. Logically we should either lynch or check that player, but with the framer running around this isn't a bread and butter night action (wham bam thank you ma'am kinda deal).
I'm still voting for myself for now, but my vote is probably going to Chezinu if he doesn't step it up. I still want to see more contributions from Chez, Foolishness, and YM.
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This is why we should never trust the town circles -_-
It's interesting though, why he would choose to reveal it. If he is red there was absolutely no reason for him to make the fact public since mafia knows his identity anyway. There is no gain- unless he wants to incriminate foolishness along with him by exploiting his foolish lack of secrecy. So if he flips scum I will be slightly inclined to believe him as town.
If he is green facepalm to me for not thinking to remove cancer of the town when I had the opportunity yesterday.
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WTF DOUBLE POST
Actually, if BM actually flips green, then it is time to put pressure on foolishness, because frankly he should know better. I also wouldn't put much credence into position people took regarding certain person; I saw way much examples where player dogmatically and irrationally defended someone while being town. It by itself is not enough to incriminate someone, and should be only used as indicator - "oh he defended scum better iso him" instead of "omg he defended scum lynch him!"
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On August 10 2010 13:17 Amber[LighT] wrote:
I agree with Tree Hugger 100%
We always make the wrong decision by shunning people who make "bad plans" (aka lynching them).
We should be looking for more suspicious players, and right now Chezinu, Foolishness and YM both come to mind. It's obvious that something fishy is going on. I don't know if Chezinu is trying to bait certain players or if he's just playing target practice as a townie, it just doesn't add up.
Youngminii is doing what I have done a few times myself, and I can understand his frustration, but it puts you on the spotlight very easily. There's a difference between a rational argument and an irrational bread crumbing war. The latter almost never works and you will never get "mafia" to jump on you. Typically it turns out to be the town. This is good because you "know" that they are probably pro-town, but you're painting a LARGE target on your back.
I'm a bit disturbed over this hit Foolishness took last night. We don't actually know if he took a hit, and though the numbers make sense, it could be a setup. We could be allowing a trap to manifest itself. Logically we should either lynch or check that player, but with the framer running around this isn't a bread and butter night action (wham bam thank you ma'am kinda deal).
I'm still voting for myself for now, but my vote is probably going to Chezinu if he doesn't step it up. I still want to see more contributions from Chez, Foolishness, and YM.
I'm explained everything now, read my posts.
My argument against youngminii is based on a differing of attitude, lack of contribution, his slip up on his counter vote, and his bad responses to my accusation.
Pyrry's argument is solely based off of the fact that BM tried the same plan when he was mafia. Nothing about attitude, nothing about contribution, no slips up or bad reactions. I already showed that BM has been known to do crazy things as town.
Pyrry says BM did the same thing he did this game as mafia. But BM has made plenty of crazy plans when he's town, and he gets lynched for it more than anyone else. I can understand that it's the exact same plan, but that's not conclusive evidence since BM makes crazy plans every game.
Pyrry is using selective evidence for his accusation, and is further exemplifying it by extending it to me being mafia. I'm considering everything that youngminii has done up to and including his past games and all his posts this game.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On August 10 2010 13:22 Hesmyrr wrote:
WTF DOUBLE POST
Actually, if BM actually flips green, then it is time to put pressure on foolishness, because frankly he should know better. I also wouldn't put much credence into position people took regarding certain person; I saw way much examples where player dogmatically and irrationally defended someone while being town. It by itself is not enough to incriminate someone, and should be only used as indicator - "oh he defended scum better iso him" instead of "omg he defended scum lynch him!"
Hahah, other way around.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On August 10 2010 13:25 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2010 13:22 Hesmyrr wrote:
WTF DOUBLE POST
Actually, if BM actually flips green, then it is time to put pressure on foolishness, because frankly he should know better. I also wouldn't put much credence into position people took regarding certain person; I saw way much examples where player dogmatically and irrationally defended someone while being town. It by itself is not enough to incriminate someone, and should be only used as indicator - "oh he defended scum better iso him" instead of "omg he defended scum lynch him!" Hahah, other way around.
Wait, actually I'm not sure. Care to explain more? I don't follow.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On April 18 2010 04:13 Bill Murray wrote:well, the best strategy going forward has been detailed by me already Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 05:13 Bill Murray wrote: everyone is an assassin here's what we're going to do: The first half of the list is required to assassinate the 2nd half of the list. The list will be inverted the next day so everyone will get their turn to kill someone if they are an assassin. They won't want to be using their kills up every single night anyways, as they can use a Detective Check on the alternate night. I will be cutting the game list into a 1/2 order. 1s are killers, 2s are killees. It will switch the next night. If you are a killer or a killee, don't complain. In all likelihood you won't have to kill or be killed, as we are not sure how many assassins there are. If the mafia kill a killee in the night, we skip a lynch to balance it (hypothetically), but if they kill a killer then we will lynch the killee of the person that they killed the killer of. I hope this is making sense to you. If anyone has any questions about the Bill Murray plan of town success let me know. This plan will help the town as it will be putting mafia players in vulnerable "killee" positions in which they would potentially lynch the "killer". We use the assassins to win as a town. They COUNT as town people, so assassins will want the town to win. It will also be giving them chances to win the game for theirselves through killing other assassins and finding assassins that they can kill at any time during the night that we aren't asking them to kill for us. If they find an assassin, they can breadcrumb a message to us previously or something to let us know BEFORE they do the action that they will be killing an alternate person (this will guarantee that they stay town as we let them go towards their goal while we go towards our goal together). I don't want assassins to claim at first, but it will become obvious after the first 2 cycles on who they are anyways, so we can be a lot more organized after the first couple day/night cycles. On April 14 2010 04:28 Qatol wrote:On April 14 2010 04:09 ~OpZ~ wrote:
Disregard....Forgot my Finals/End of Term/HW/Needing a book read by Tuesday... Thanks so much for doing this! Can't devote enough time to play seriously = sitting it out. So nice to see.  You yourself are around the thread enough, while not even playing in it, to actually play more competently than most of the people who play. Furthermore, in the small amount of what you devote, due to the time it takes you being disproportionate in relation to the time required of others to build cases taking into acount the discrepancy in skill level, you really should play. you could still be among the best players even when devoting less time. On April 14 2010 05:04 Foolishness wrote:
If one of the assassins wins (i.e. all but one assassin are dead) does the game end? Or does it keep playing out until one of mafia/town win? I hope the latter. On April 14 2010 04:50 Jugan wrote:
instead of a picture of lightning you should have a picture of a goat. african or european? i promise consolidation if you let me edit
This is BM's plan. It details having the assassins kill each.
Nothing about getting all the blues to claim to him. I'm looking through and not seeing anything close to getting everyone to claim to BM. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Although notice that I site past games and posts as evidence while Pyrry does not.
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This is all WIFOM.
BrownBear and Foolishness are in contact with each other. Foolishness is also in separate contact with Bill Murray. If Foolishness is mafia, then he can kill BB with impunity, but BB might have taken insurance by telling someone about contact between them. So by telling Bill Murray, he buys an way out because he was under big pressure yesterday- and knowing his play tendency might have expected him to reveal it. The fact supporting this argument is that I see no reason for Foolishness to tell Bill Murray BB's role.
Of course I think other way is more probable, that Bill Murray is scum and he is taking advantage of Foolishness's mistake by revealing the fact that he came to knew BB's identity due to Foolishness. Knowing how Foolishness defended him, it would not be very hard to push for his lynch if BM flips red. Fact supporting this is I see no reason why Bill Murray would reveal he know BB's role- I honestly do not believe Bill thought revealing someone else's role was going to save him.
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On August 10 2010 13:30 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 04:13 Bill Murray wrote:well, the best strategy going forward has been detailed by me already On April 14 2010 05:13 Bill Murray wrote: everyone is an assassin here's what we're going to do: The first half of the list is required to assassinate the 2nd half of the list. The list will be inverted the next day so everyone will get their turn to kill someone if they are an assassin. They won't want to be using their kills up every single night anyways, as they can use a Detective Check on the alternate night. I will be cutting the game list into a 1/2 order. 1s are killers, 2s are killees. It will switch the next night. If you are a killer or a killee, don't complain. In all likelihood you won't have to kill or be killed, as we are not sure how many assassins there are. If the mafia kill a killee in the night, we skip a lynch to balance it (hypothetically), but if they kill a killer then we will lynch the killee of the person that they killed the killer of. I hope this is making sense to you. If anyone has any questions about the Bill Murray plan of town success let me know. This plan will help the town as it will be putting mafia players in vulnerable "killee" positions in which they would potentially lynch the "killer". We use the assassins to win as a town. They COUNT as town people, so assassins will want the town to win. It will also be giving them chances to win the game for theirselves through killing other assassins and finding assassins that they can kill at any time during the night that we aren't asking them to kill for us. If they find an assassin, they can breadcrumb a message to us previously or something to let us know BEFORE they do the action that they will be killing an alternate person (this will guarantee that they stay town as we let them go towards their goal while we go towards our goal together). I don't want assassins to claim at first, but it will become obvious after the first 2 cycles on who they are anyways, so we can be a lot more organized after the first couple day/night cycles. On April 14 2010 04:28 Qatol wrote:On April 14 2010 04:09 ~OpZ~ wrote:
Disregard....Forgot my Finals/End of Term/HW/Needing a book read by Tuesday... Thanks so much for doing this! Can't devote enough time to play seriously = sitting it out. So nice to see. You yourself are around the thread enough, while not even playing in it, to actually play more competently than most of the people who play. Furthermore, in the small amount of what you devote, due to the time it takes you being disproportionate in relation to the time required of others to build cases taking into acount the discrepancy in skill level, you really should play. you could still be among the best players even when devoting less time. On April 14 2010 05:04 Foolishness wrote:
If one of the assassins wins (i.e. all but one assassin are dead) does the game end? Or does it keep playing out until one of mafia/town win? I hope the latter. On April 14 2010 04:50 Jugan wrote:
instead of a picture of lightning you should have a picture of a goat. african or european? i promise consolidation if you let me edit This is BM's plan. It details having the assassins kill each. Nothing about getting all the blues to claim to him. I'm looking through and not seeing anything close to getting everyone to claim to BM. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Although notice that I site past games and posts as evidence while Pyrry does not.
Part of his plan was that if two people were paired up and were blue they were supposed to claim publically. It was in a different post explaining his plan. I think I posted it before. I can dig it out.
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Also, before any townies help save Bill Murray by jumping onto Youngminii:
Let's review the posts Foolishness says are scummy:
First there's something about defending Pandain. That is somewhat worrisome; see my next post for more on Pandain.
+ Show Spoiler +DT can use a proxy townie like was done last game with Zeks and lakrismamma.
Also, how did the mafia suck at blue sniping last game? They got every single blue long before the end of the game (and the end of the game was significantly shortened BECAUSE they sniped every blue). You were the one playing like a total scrub early game, linking pretty much all the blues together and accusing them as a group of scum (remember your PM parade telling everyone to lynch Subversion?).
I hope people don't use PMs to the same effect this game, I'd say stay very wary of most PMs early game (case in point: Subversion revealing to Pandain that he was DT without having checked Pandain, Pandain was in fact a miller, but still could have been very dangerous).
I never found out how Subversion's DT role got leaked, that was well and truly stupid as fuck.
Youngminii being abrasive as usual. The PM stuff was good advice that no one is following; we'll see how that turns out.
Next posts are defending Chezinu - if Chez is red, okay. Otherwise youngminii is probably just making sure we don't lynch him day 1 just for being weird. At least Chez wasn't scummy weird by asking for all blues to claim to him.
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +Maybe we are posting a bit too much (I don't think it's as much as last game lol).. Isn't the whole point of all this to generate discussion though? I mean, what else are we going to do, sit around and twiddle our thumbs?
Quality post? No. Scummy post? Nope. Might as well be quoting BM's cat image.
+ Show Spoiler +Okay apparently BM can't see what's wrong with his plan. I shall outline them for you.
If you are scum, we lose instantly.
If you are town, 6 people will lie and you won't know who lied and who didn't and you can't publicly reveal them without exposing their identity.
What are you going to do when all 6 scum claims town? Hmm? Oh right, nothing.
Do you really, really, really think every single person will claim to you? Do you know how hard organisation is, especially on a forum?
What are you going to do when the framer frames people? Uh oh.
Can't be fucked listing anymore.
It was good of him to chime in on this because BM kept pushing it which counters any idea that he was just fooling around.
Next post youngminii says he will find scum and then he doesn't seem to so much later. Obvious mafia! Or maybe he is truthful about university. Either way, not a scumtell.
Then he said he was way more involved with helping town in godfather mafia. He was also A DETECTIVE that game. Not really helpful because that is apples to oranges. You'd be better comparing to TL Mafia XXVIII since he was active in that one, but again I'm not ready to lynch him when BM is still on the table and it could be a case of less time available.
Okay, good, Foolishness does have a post from XXVIII. It's a big long post about Chaoser who didn't happen to be mafia (lol that helped us a lot).
When it comes down to it, nearly everything different about youngminii this game could be explained by him just being busier. The exceptions are weird defenses of both Chezinu and Pandain - but I'm not sure whether going after Youngminii before the others makes sense (see my upcoming post on Pandain especially).
With Bill Murray and Foolishness, there is no possible simple explanation for the differences I see.
Well, BM could be fucking around but I'd rather kill BM for fucking around than kill Youngminii for being busy.
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The reason why I like BM scum theory is that Foolishness scum one feels kind of a stretch. I think it is just as equally as probable that he was incautious with his knowledge. God knows PM land is some sort of crazy drug in TL Mafia which either cause insanity or brilliance in players.
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[QUOTE]On August 10 2010 13:17 Amber[LighT] wrote:
I agree with Tree Hugger 100%
We always make the wrong decision by shunning people who make "bad plans" (aka lynching them).
[quote]
Something tells me the TL Mafia metagame is shifting to where mafia players realize they can propose hella shady / huge potential reward plans with little risk. Several of you may understand what I mean here.
[Quote]
I'm a bit disturbed over this hit Foolishness took last night. We don't actually know if he took a hit, and though the numbers make sense, it could be a setup. We could be allowing a trap to manifest itself. Logically we should either lynch or check that player, but with the framer running around this isn't a bread and butter night action (wham bam thank you ma'am kinda deal).
[/quote]
Not to mention I am fairly certain Foolishness is GF if mafia. If Foolishness is mafia it prolly went down like this: LSB proves himself very dangerous with his great plan - if it works out he will be nearly confirmed for proposing it. Let's double up on him in case he is veteran and that's a great opportunity for a fake claim if he's not. Of course, that risks hitting a medic who then knows 3 hits were used and no vigi hits are day 1, so Foolishness is fake claiming. But wait! The plan guarantees the medic is on Xelin. What medic would like LSB enough to prot him but not enough to follow the plan? So, zero risk to mafia looking weird with a fake claim.
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On August 10 2010 13:22 Hesmyrr wrote:
WTF DOUBLE POST
Actually, if BM actually flips green, then it is time to put pressure on foolishness, because frankly he should know better. I also wouldn't put much credence into position people took regarding certain person; I saw way much examples where player dogmatically and irrationally defended someone while being town. It by itself is not enough to incriminate someone, and should be only used as indicator - "oh he defended scum better iso him" instead of "omg he defended scum lynch him!"
What why does that make foolishness look bad if BM flips green? Do you think someone like him would so openly defend another mafia member like BM? ESPECIALLY bm of all people, no mafia member in their right mind would stick their neck out to save them, though would only pile on this wagon that pyrr has going to give them town cred
Look at the evidence on young, look how young is not talking back, not doing anything at all. Has he ever done this as town? Nope.
Is his play in any way helping town? Nope. That is SOO unlike him, at this stage in the game he should be spamming big red bold letters of his scum list that he wants to die die die
i IMPLORE you to consider him over a retard like bm. Does anyone remember subversion from last game? People saying stupid shit getting lynched, rather than substantial reasons like all the evidence piled against young that points completely to a change instead to incorporate mafia behavior. IT IS JUST LIKE SCUM to give some shitty reason to stay under the radar without arousing suspicion.
You HAVE to remember there are 5 other mafia out there, if we have one of their members on the chopping block. They will be influential in trying to sway the votes as indirectly as they can possibly be while saving their team mates.
Young is our best candidate. Sure it's' always reasonable to lynch bm because he's a radical player, but he always plays radically. Young NEVER plays so anti town, or at least nothing-town. Quiet, reserved, empty arguments. It's beyond reason.
VOTE for him or give a better argument than the current one DO NOT wagon on top of him because he's bm.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On August 10 2010 13:35 Hesmyrr wrote:
This is all WIFOM.
BrownBear and Foolishness are in contact with each other. Foolishness is also in separate contact with Bill Murray. If Foolishness is mafia, then he can kill BB with impunity, but BB might have taken insurance by telling someone about contact between them. So by telling Bill Murray, he buys an way out because he was under big pressure yesterday- and knowing his play tendency might have expected him to reveal it. The fact supporting this argument is that I see no reason for Foolishness to tell Bill Murray BB's role.
Of course I think other way is more probable, that Bill Murray is scum and he is taking advantage of Foolishness's mistake by revealing the fact that he came to knew BB's identity due to Foolishness. Knowing how Foolishness defended him, it would not be very hard to push for his lynch if BM flips red. Fact supporting this is I see no reason why Bill Murray would reveal he know BB's role- I honestly do not believe Bill thought revealing someone else's role was going to save him.
Yeah this is useless, honestly. It's a gut call whichever is more likely, and of course, they could both be town, and BM could just be reckless.
Bedtime. Expecting this thread to somehow be another twenty pages when I return because Chezinu claimed Morgan Freeman or something.
Please respond to my pm's. Thank you.
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Ok guys, tree.hugger is gone let's start posting!
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Foolishness has been claiming in thread that he has been suspicious of Bill Murray (remember the two anti-Bill Murray posts he quoted; he said that he was not allied with Bill Murray).
Foolishness claimed I was stupid for thinking anyone would cough up blue roles to Bill Murray just because he asked for them.
Foolishness has now apparently coughed up BLUE ROLES to the Bill Murray who supposedly wasn't really blue fishing but joking around and supposedly wasn't allied with Foolishness at all.
This does not add up.
Lynch Bill Murray. Proceed from there.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On August 10 2010 13:53 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Foolishness has been claiming in thread that he has been suspicious of Bill Murray (remember the two anti-Bill Murray posts he quoted; he said that he was not allied with Bill Murray).
Foolishness claimed I was stupid for thinking anyone would cough up blue roles to Bill Murray just because he asked for them.
Foolishness has now apparently coughed up BLUE ROLES to the Bill Murray who supposedly wasn't really blue fishing but joking around and supposedly wasn't allied with Foolishness at all.
This does not add up.
Lynch Bill Murray. Proceed from there.
When did I call you stupid?
Be sensible and quote posts in your arguments.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
Oh and where's that post about BM's plan from the other game?
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"That's insufficient in itself, but Pyrry thinks BM is mafia mostly because of BM's ridiculous plan day 1."
Here is you thinking the plan is ridiculous, rather than scummy. So if it is ridiculous for him to collect blue names, why give him one, ya?
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On August 10 2010 13:56 Foolishness wrote:
Oh and where's that post about BM's plan from the other game?
Here is Bill Murray as Godfather asking for blues to role claim publically
-This plan was presented Day 1.
-Basically, his plan was to group people in twos. If a group of two did not contain an assassin (called ninja's in this game) they were supposed to claim publically. Think about how high the odds are there. In this game, there are 2-4 ninjas. So if we did this plan here, it is basically presenting a Day 1 plan asking 22-28 of the 30 town's people to publically claim their role.
On April 18 2010 05:33 Bill Murray wrote:
OK. Big FoS on Zona/BC for completely ignoring my valid strategy of making people pitted against each other. If we have player A vs player B we will be able to learn who the assassins are through having them strategically fight each other. If neither one is an assassin, we can have them roleclaim. I know that a lot of people on TL are against roleclaiming like this, but it is very beneficial to the town.
Good points from this:
1) we learn who the assassins are
2) assassins have an equal chance of killing other assassins
3) we will be able to see people who are unable to kill each other
This is the same approach that was attempted to be taken in Caller's last Mafiya. It was a very good strategy, and should have been followed. I feel that BC is probably town, but I'm getting serious scummy vibes from Zona. He's trying to derail the town, and is more than likely scum.
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EPT
