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Oh wait a minute, you did post in the thread now...but what the heck is this? Nothing in response to me? I guess I wouldn't take me very seriously either but please. Don't make it obvious on yourself.
The beauty of it is, I know you're all excited from this Ace-Caller argument and think you can post that and get away with it, but let me tell you: somebody always notices. Always the person who you least suspect too. And it may not be today or tomorrow, but in the future, someone will realize. And then you truly will have nothing to say and no response can save your own future.
Sorry I must've missed your post, but it really didn't say anything anyway. I still hold by the fact that BM's plan, while certainly not great or long term is better than anything else suggested, and it will at least get us the 15 votes we need.
Inf had a good criticism when he pointed out that BMs plan is counter intuitive to the Assassin's mission, but it just lays out a good systematic way of tracking people down.
Your vote for me was just as arbitrary as my counter vote on you, and I fully intend to change it if we can all agree on someone.
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Ok I was going to post that TheLardyGoser's vote on Foolishness was just the kind of vote with with weak useless justification that can tell us of a scum who "need" to justifiy his voting with any reason. But then I saw all the other votes before him with similar reasons.
Could people post their justifications here for voting, isntead of in the voting thread?
Also, I don't how people serisouly discuted BM's assassin plan for 5+ pages. What's worth noting about assassins is that they need with the town, there's no better way to avoid lynching than being protown and those rolechecks can benefit us.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On April 19 2010 08:23 Abenson wrote:
Thank you Ace for simply stopping your relentless attacks
I also think it a good idea to wait and compile his posts.
Anyways, I think we should be focused on other issues,
Like whether we should implement the BM assassin plan
I'm against it, but I think it be best we talk over it.
Wait, what?
One: the BM assassin plan has been shown time and time again to be a terrible idea, based on a faulty premise (assassins are pro-town), that no assassin in their right mind would follow. In fact, I don't think it's been brought up for several pages.
So no, we should not be focused on this, because it's a non-issue.
Which leads me to ask: why on earth did you even bring it up? Because this:
"I'm against it, but I think it be best we talk over it."
Is hilariously unbelievable. There's no reason for you to simply raise the issue of the BM 'Plan' when it isn't on the table, if you aren't for it. But you know it's unpopular with some people, (read: everyone) and so to distance yourself from it, you purport to be not in favor. Seriously, what are you trying to pull?
***
Voted for nAi.PrOtOsS - Inactive with regards to contributing, but active with regards to defending himself.
I'll probably change my vote though, we'll see.
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TheLardyGooser/Abenson, let's stop trying to go back to that. The BM assassin plan is worthless. Here's why:
First half of the list hits the second half of the list on Night 1. Mafia puts all of their hits on list 2. We don't know who hit whom unless the Assassins step forward to roleclaim, at which point each Assassin instantly knows who all of the other Assassins are, and they all try to kill each other with no guarantee of individual victory. Therefore none of them will claim. Alternatively, the mafia can choose to put all of their hits on list 1 and then the Assassins on list 1 are revealed and quickly eliminated by their peers. Lastly, it allows for dumb ploys like a mafia claiming Assassin because the person across the list from them died.
Bill was right in a way; this plan only really works if everyone (or, rather, a large section of the game) is an Assassin because this kind of plan only works when everyone has KP to use.
TheLardyGooser, a mass roleclaim is just foolish at this point in time, because it singles out Blues to be sniped if they so decide to post honestly - and if not, then we're no better off than where we are now.
Good night, folks.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I'm fully against the BM plan. I can't see how we as town can glean any useful information from it. Lets just drop it and move onto the more important issues.
For instance, whats with all the people voting in the voting thread, and not posting a single thing about it in this thread. If you're gonna vote, at least give us a reason why. We currently have 14 votes in and very few explanations. We can't just have random people throwing votes around on a whim. We will never reach a majority vote that way. We need in-thread discussion, and we need to know peoples reasons for the way they vote.
I still think the plan should be to vote off the inactives. If people have a strong case for a player then fine, post it and convince us. But so far this is mostly blatant conjecture, as it would have to be since it's Day 1. I'm far more in favor of keeping around a scummy poster then a complete non-poster. It makes the game more fun, and chances are a scummy poster will eventually slip-up. Also, we can't hurt ourselves by voting off someone inactive, we certainly can hurt ourselves by voting off a potentially strong, active player. There is a Day 1 risk-reward analysis here. By voting off an inactive player we can only win, by voting off someone active we can win or lose. Granted we could win big by voting off someone active and mafia, but lets face it, no one has any facts right now so that seems like a long shot.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
My bad, just woke up from OSL tiebreakers. Lemme catch up on what I've missed in the last day and see what's going on.
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On April 19 2010 08:42 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 08:23 Abenson wrote:
Thank you Ace for simply stopping your relentless attacks
I also think it a good idea to wait and compile his posts.
Anyways, I think we should be focused on other issues,
Like whether we should implement the BM assassin plan
I'm against it, but I think it be best we talk over it.
Wait, what? One: the BM assassin plan has been shown time and time again to be a terrible idea, based on a faulty premise (assassins are pro-town), that no assassin in their right mind would follow. In fact, I don't think it's been brought up for several pages. So no, we should not be focused on this, because it's a non-issue. Which leads me to ask: why on earth did you even bring it up? Because this: "I'm against it, but I think it be best we talk over it." Is hilariously unbelievable. There's no reason for you to simply raise the issue of the BM 'Plan' when it isn't on the table, if you aren't for it. But you know it's unpopular with some people, (read: everyone) and so to distance yourself from it, you purport to be not in favor. Seriously, what are you trying to pull? *** Voted for nAi.PrOtOsS - Inactive with regards to contributing, but active with regards to defending himself. I'll probably change my vote though, we'll see.
So lets hear who you think is mafia. I have no idea. I am not convinced it's Caller, so why would I argue he is? Defending myself is pro-town.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Yeah, just gonna chime in a little here. I disagree on lynching an inactive. I'd rather gamble and kill off someone suspicious than take a guess at an inactive. As someone earlier mentioned, if people are inactive, then as the game drags on, people aren't going to take their word at all. Why not just gamble now and take a shot at someone who seems suspicious now? Go big or go home.
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Also with the amount of information we have currently which is absolutly nothing, the best thing we can do is to just pick the most inactive person and vote him off. If there are multiple inactive people then we should vote off the most experienced inactive people, because if they are mafia they are the least likely to make mistakes later on in the game.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On April 19 2010 08:54 Roffles wrote:
My bad, just woke up from OSL tiebreakers. Lemme catch up on what I've missed in the last day and see what's going on.
7 hours of SC is a lot :/
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Yes, you could play it safe and kill off someone who's not doing anything, but I'd still say go big or go home. I think since we have some various factions at the moment, while it might not be the greatest idea, if we could kill off one of them, we might be able to grab a whiff at allegiances this early on in the game.
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The problem with killing someone suspicious on Day 1 is that we really don't have much info to work with. Sure, if someone really put himself forward with some really bad play, but most of the time you'll end up with a townie anyway. And lynching a random inactive put some incencitive for those inactives to start posting. If they start posting, mafia can't hide among them, and we get info to work with.
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On April 19 2010 09:04 flamewheel91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 08:54 Roffles wrote:
My bad, just woke up from OSL tiebreakers. Lemme catch up on what I've missed in the last day and see what's going on. 7 hours of SC is a lot :/
+3 hours of PL that makes 10 
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Wow, a lot to catch up on -.- But here we go:
On April 19 2010 06:32 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
I thought Caller made a lot of sense, members of the mafia would want to post frequently early on so they are not lynched for being inactive but they also don't want to actually say much in their posts because the more they say the more chance of being proven scum.
Very true. But I really don't think that's the trend that is happening in this game. Mostly because people are generally lazy during Day 1; there's nothing to work with usually and posting could result in a lynch. I'm leaning more towards the inactivity = suspicion of mafia, but I guess that would put me in the spotlight as well since I haven't posted that much since the game started.
On April 19 2010 06:41 Fishball wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 06:11 Foolishness wrote:On April 18 2010 15:20 TheLardyGooser wrote:I knew Bill Murray was smart, but this plan seems fool proof. Being a fool and a total newwwb I can respect that. Altair, please leave me be when the night comes ...what the hell... I was going to "nobody cares" that post...but honestly I think voting will do a much better job. Fishball...where are you...? I was out for the second half of the day yesterday till late. I only woke up now. I'm curious why you call me out though. So BM made a list, similar to Ace's proposal in Caller's Russia Mafia, and a lot of people have already pointed out the flaws. It's hard to tell whether BM is an Assassin trying to hunt for other Assassins, or a plain townie just trying to contribute. Then we also have a small group of people jumping on Caller for being "inactive".
I'm sorry I'm talking about BM's plan again, but I just wanted to share a bit more of my thoughts...
Hmm... BM could be an assassin, but you never know with him because he's so... random XD (Not saying you're bad though BM! :D) I still see the flaws in BM's plan (Mostly because some people will not follow through with who they're supposed to kill), and I believe we should not follow through with it.
But if by some chance the majority does agree with this plan, we should only implement it for Day/Night 1. As the game progresses, I think it would be harder to role claim with that plan, mostly because, it would be very easy for any blue/red/assassin to frame others.
These questions are mostly directed at BM, but anyone could answer them if they want: How would medics/DTs/Mad Hatters do their job with your plan? Would DTs role check their targeted person? Would medics be saving anyone? Would Mad Hatters hold on to their bombs?
On April 19 2010 07:29 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 07:16 Caller wrote:On April 19 2010 07:11 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
I actually thought Caller's first post was pretty good because it rerailed the town discussion away from BM's plan, which had been beat to death. He also identified the sort of non committal passerby posts that people need to watch for and remember. However, I'm not sure how he arrived at the conclusion that Ace's strong accusations are the signs of a pro-town player. The wifom part was incorrect, and the part about inexperienced players posting more is basically an obvious truthism; pointing out something like that has no bearing on his innocence or guilt and so garners no points from me.
and why Nai Protoss all of a sudden? he's just about as useful as all the other semi-inactives. Killing him doesn't really tell us much at all, i don't think...and at least he's posting now that we're talking about him in the thread. To be honest, now that I read it again, your post wasn't as much of a WifoM as I had thought the first time. The reason I suspect nai.protoss now is because he demonstrated that while he reads the posts, he doesn't read the posts. Not only that, but he came out of nowhere to do the very thing I said not to do and left without responding to my allegations. I can see the situation very clearly (this happened to me multiple times in the previous mafia as follows): a) I make a retarded post. LMNOP and Shinbi-chan are like WTF CALLER UR A FUCKIN MORON b) They tell me to stfu and Shinbi-chan posts a load of bullcrap to derail anybody from noticing my fishy as shit posts. c) everything goes back to normal. What's to think the same thing didn't happen here? If you look at other threads you will see this is my first game. The two mafia type players you described before were the quite members that pretty much agreed with townies and offered no opinion themselves, and the experienced mafia members which appeared to be extremely pro-town. Now why would an inexperienced member of the mafia do the exact thing that you just stated as showing mafia members. No reason what so ever. An inexperienced townie however that doesn't want to get lynched for being inactive, but also is to inexperienced to actually add anything to the conversation has nothing to lose from agreeing with the "experienced townie".
Hmm... Looking at the time stamp between Caller's post and your post, I'm assuming you've had time to read his post before making a reply.
Looking at what you said, combined with Caller's post, an inexperienced mafia would be posting to get out of inactivity so he does not get lynched and would look like an inexperienced townie trying not to get lynched. After Caller's post, an inexperienced mafia would not be willing to act along with what he said. But at the same time, you have posted and given not that much opinion yourself and agreed with other people for the most part (Which is what Caller described a mafia would do). It kinda looks like you're trying to avoid the spotlight of attention, but at the same time, you're messing up so people are noticing you even more.
So this is the list of people "inactives" who have posted after Caller's post:
- Fishball (Haven't expressed much thoughts, but according to him, he's only been up for about 2 hours)
- TheLardyGooser (Pushing for a new plan)
- tree.hugger (Talks about Abenson)
- Roffles (Just woke up from OSL tiebreakers)
Actually from what I can see, I think there's a higher chance that the mafia will be hiding in the inactives at this current time.
And to Jugan: What's all this hate towards me? :O You claim that I was bashing on you, but I wasn't; I was just responding/expressing my thoughts in response your post.
I have some suspicion against nAi at this point, but it's not concrete enough for me to vote him. I'll vote once a bit more comes it. Or if nothing suspicious happens, I guess we could just pick a random inactive and lynch him? :/
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On April 19 2010 09:08 CynanMachae wrote:
The problem with killing someone suspicious on Day 1 is that we really don't have much info to work with. Sure, if someone really put himself forward with some really bad play, but most of the time you'll end up with a townie anyway. And lynching a random inactive put some incencitive for those inactives to start posting. If they start posting, mafia can't hide among them, and we get info to work with.
Sounds logical and safe.
And tiebreakers. 7 hours FML.
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On April 19 2010 09:10 KF91 wrote:Wow, a lot to catch up on -.- But here we go: Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 06:32 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
I thought Caller made a lot of sense, members of the mafia would want to post frequently early on so they are not lynched for being inactive but they also don't want to actually say much in their posts because the more they say the more chance of being proven scum. Very true. But I really don't think that's the trend that is happening in this game. Mostly because people are generally lazy during Day 1; there's nothing to work with usually and posting could result in a lynch. I'm leaning more towards the inactivity = suspicion of mafia, but I guess that would put me in the spotlight as well since I haven't posted that much since the game started. Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 06:41 Fishball wrote:On April 19 2010 06:11 Foolishness wrote:On April 18 2010 15:20 TheLardyGooser wrote:I knew Bill Murray was smart, but this plan seems fool proof. Being a fool and a total newwwb I can respect that. Altair, please leave me be when the night comes ...what the hell... I was going to "nobody cares" that post...but honestly I think voting will do a much better job. Fishball...where are you...? I was out for the second half of the day yesterday till late. I only woke up now. I'm curious why you call me out though. So BM made a list, similar to Ace's proposal in Caller's Russia Mafia, and a lot of people have already pointed out the flaws. It's hard to tell whether BM is an Assassin trying to hunt for other Assassins, or a plain townie just trying to contribute. Then we also have a small group of people jumping on Caller for being "inactive". I'm sorry I'm talking about BM's plan again, but I just wanted to share a bit more of my thoughts... Hmm... BM could be an assassin, but you never know with him because he's so... random XD (Not saying you're bad though BM! :D) I still see the flaws in BM's plan (Mostly because some people will not follow through with who they're supposed to kill), and I believe we should not follow through with it. But if by some chance the majority does agree with this plan, we should only implement it for Day/Night 1. As the game progresses, I think it would be harder to role claim with that plan, mostly because, it would be very easy for any blue/red/assassin to frame others. These questions are mostly directed at BM, but anyone could answer them if they want: How would medics/DTs/Mad Hatters do their job with your plan? Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 07:29 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:On April 19 2010 07:16 Caller wrote:On April 19 2010 07:11 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
I actually thought Caller's first post was pretty good because it rerailed the town discussion away from BM's plan, which had been beat to death. He also identified the sort of non committal passerby posts that people need to watch for and remember. However, I'm not sure how he arrived at the conclusion that Ace's strong accusations are the signs of a pro-town player. The wifom part was incorrect, and the part about inexperienced players posting more is basically an obvious truthism; pointing out something like that has no bearing on his innocence or guilt and so garners no points from me.
and why Nai Protoss all of a sudden? he's just about as useful as all the other semi-inactives. Killing him doesn't really tell us much at all, i don't think...and at least he's posting now that we're talking about him in the thread. To be honest, now that I read it again, your post wasn't as much of a WifoM as I had thought the first time. The reason I suspect nai.protoss now is because he demonstrated that while he reads the posts, he doesn't read the posts. Not only that, but he came out of nowhere to do the very thing I said not to do and left without responding to my allegations. I can see the situation very clearly (this happened to me multiple times in the previous mafia as follows): a) I make a retarded post. LMNOP and Shinbi-chan are like WTF CALLER UR A FUCKIN MORON b) They tell me to stfu and Shinbi-chan posts a load of bullcrap to derail anybody from noticing my fishy as shit posts. c) everything goes back to normal. What's to think the same thing didn't happen here? If you look at other threads you will see this is my first game. The two mafia type players you described before were the quite members that pretty much agreed with townies and offered no opinion themselves, and the experienced mafia members which appeared to be extremely pro-town. Now why would an inexperienced member of the mafia do the exact thing that you just stated as showing mafia members. No reason what so ever. An inexperienced townie however that doesn't want to get lynched for being inactive, but also is to inexperienced to actually add anything to the conversation has nothing to lose from agreeing with the "experienced townie". Hmm... Looking at the time stamp between Caller's post and your post, I'm assuming you've had time to read his post before making a reply. Looking at what you said, combined with Caller's post, an inexperienced mafia would be posting to get out of inactivity so he does not get lynched and would look like an inexperienced townie trying not to get lynched. After Caller's post, an inexperienced mafia would not be willing to act along with what he said. But at the same time, you have posted and given not that much opinion yourself and agreed with other people for the most part (Which is what Caller described a mafia would do). It kinda looks like you're trying to avoid the spotlight of attention, but at the same time, you're messing up so people are noticing you even more. So this is the list of people "inactives" who have posted after Caller's post: - Fishball (Haven't expressed much thoughts, but according to him, he's only been up for about 2 hours) - TheLardyGooser (Pushing for a new plan) - tree.hugger (Talks about Abenson) - Roffles (Just woke up from OSL tiebreakers) Actually from what I can see, I think there's a higher chance that the mafia will be hiding in the inactives at this current time. And to Jugan: What's all this hate towards me? :O You claim that I was bashing on you, but I wasn't; I was just responding/expressing my thoughts in response your post. I have some suspicion against nAi at this point, but it's not concrete enough for me to vote him. I'll vote once a bit more comes it. Or if nothing suspicious happens, I guess we could just pick a random inactive and lynch him? :/
"Would DTs role check their targeted person? Would medics be saving anyone? Would Mad Hatters hold on to their bombs? "
DTs would check whoever the personally found suspicious, and would sometimes be assassins theirselves! DTs would check the lynchee if the lyncher is offed to see if the lynchee is a mafia. Medics would protect the assassins that were trying to work with the town. Mad Hatters would put bombs on the people who were lynchees that had their lynchers killed.
I've also found Caller's play to be rather scummy. If we can't lynch Zona, I'm for lynching Caller.
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On April 19 2010 09:11 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 09:08 CynanMachae wrote:
The problem with killing someone suspicious on Day 1 is that we really don't have much info to work with. Sure, if someone really put himself forward with some really bad play, but most of the time you'll end up with a townie anyway. And lynching a random inactive put some incencitive for those inactives to start posting. If they start posting, mafia can't hide among them, and we get info to work with. Sounds logical and safe. And tiebreakers. 7 hours FML.
Yeah, I just couldn't do it man. I wanted to, but I got tired at like 6am
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On April 19 2010 09:02 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Also with the amount of information we have currently which is absolutly nothing, the best thing we can do is to just pick the most inactive person and vote him off. If there are multiple inactive people then we should vote off the most experienced inactive people, because if they are mafia they are the least likely to make mistakes later on in the game.
I completely disagree with this. I feel like nAi.Protoss is taking a stance against hunting for reds here, and that is something that we can't have. You're moving up my suspects list.
From what I've read I feel like Ace is being a little cautious and not posting as much so he's probably blue or red. I feel like Jugan is the most obvious town player I've ever seen, and I feel like Meeple/Zona might be scumbuddies (especially given the prevalence Flamewheel would show to people like this)
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On April 19 2010 09:24 Bill Murray wrote:
I've also found Caller's play to be rather scummy. If we can't lynch Zona, I'm for lynching Caller.
As far as I'm concerned this is a terrible way to go about this. Don't just say "Caller's scummy". Give us some reasons, lay down some facts. As far as I can tell, both Caller and Zona have seemed legit enough for me, at least for Day 1. Why are you so quick to vote for these players when they could be an asset in the future, and when it makes much more sense to vote out some of the least active players. Lets not do the mafia's job for them.
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I think I was misunderstood on the aspect of the BM plan I thought was a good idea. I know it won't work for getting rid of Assassins, (plus you more experienced guys seem to not view them as a threat) but at this point its the only thing out there besides the flame war between caller and nai, and random selection (which at this point is statistically more likely to kill a green than a red).
Just an idea, but could some of you fire hardened TLers offer up some good day 1 town strategies that have performed well in the past? It might help to re-focus the debate somewhat
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EPT
