EPTMicro-MAFIA (The First) - Page 2
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On March 26 2010 12:16 Ace wrote: ??? You must not know me ^_^ I'm one of the few people who'd lynch a DT or medic claiming Day 1 in a second. Why is that? | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On March 26 2010 12:24 Versatile wrote: he hates 1st day roleclaims. they can't be substantiated until a death occurs for the most part. We all have times when we "hate" how others play, but in the end the whole premise of the game is you "play to win" not "play to eliminate those you feel are idiots". | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On March 26 2010 12:25 Ace wrote: because they can't be proven and they usually have no reason to claim. If you're a Medic especially, argue your way to hell and back until you are 100% positive no one is going to change and you are sure you've made lots of rational pro-town arguments. If you RC you die that night anyway. If you live because people change their minds you live to make a possible protection. 1. He didn't role-claim until he was pretty sure to be getting lynched. Of course, I agree with you that a stronger player would have tried to argue their way out of being lynched instead. Still, this claim did not come out of the blue. 2. If a medic claims it's still better to let the mafia waste the KP, no? Why waste the lynch instead and let the mafia kill someone else? So I am far from convinced it makes sense to kill someone who claims blue. I am not saying claiming on day 1 is the smart thing to do, but given that some player does it, I see no rational reason to vote them off. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
The Mafia knowing this, has a really good option not to kill the medic because the town will lynch him the next day. If the medic lives that night, the town can't go back and say "well maybe the Mafia decided not to hit him". Why would we? We'd be back in Day 1 a player short and in the same position. Next day there still isn't any good reason for the town to lynch him, unless the mafia happened to kill a medic during the night making it plainly obvious he was lying. Otherwise the same logic applies: let the mafia waste the KP and/or wait for a DT check or a competing medic claim/death to clarify things/provide more information. Then there's the classic argument of why would Mafia claim Medic when they are about to die - why not? The optimal play is staying alive.If scum feels a medic claim will confound the town, let him live another day and be able to weasel away with it then he's winning. If a red role-claims they are taking a major risk: the "real" blue is out there looking to nail them. This is a better position for town than what we have now. If the "real" medic somehow dies the town automatically knows the initial role-claim was false and bam, we have a red. The bottom line is that there is no reason for the town to risk killing a blue. Even if the mafia lets them live to spread confusion, or even if the claim was false and he was red, the town has more information. Again, I feel like you know all this and we're just going through the motions here. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
There IS a good reason for the town to lynch him. Look, if the Mafia never hit a medic but always get their kills through the real medic is essentially useless. It seems wrong to assume an untrustworthy medic is useless. As long as they are alive, the medic can still protect people each night. Worst case scenario: they protect scum, and people still get killed, no worse than having no medic. However, there is a chance they will protect someone the mafia would hit, particularly in such a small game where it’s not THAT hard to keep track of who is doing what. What is the town going to do? Blame the medic? They can't because they aren't even sure the medic is legit There are no PMs in this game, everyone plays in the open & the medic decides what to do/who to protect. It thus makes very little difference if the town thinks the medic is "legit". Do you think the REAL medic is going to roleclaim?! Seriously? Which is going to definitely result in a dead medic that night - the same thing you want to avoid. If a red lied and the “real” medic is still alive there are plenty of scenarios where it makes sense for them to RC. For example… if there is only one red left in the game - the fake claimer. Mafia don't waste KP killing medics - thats exactly what they want. Medics aren't there to take bullets that is just absurd thinking. Once the medic is about to be lynched anyway they might as well try to take a bullet - it's better than dying for no reason what-so-ever. Play to win, not to get even, right? Then in a small game as this, you want the DT to RC the medic which just helps what I'm trying to tell you - the DT must not believe the medic claim. Else why would he "waste a rolecheck" right? :D I never said the DT should RC immediately. There are scenarios down the road when, if the DT is still alive and the guy who claims medic is acting really shifty or there is a limited set of suspects it might make sense to RC them. You don't ever let unconfirmed power roles run around. You don't let players live "because they might be blue". Unless they have very convincing arguments then they shouldn't be left alive. There IS no better position for the town. If you have an outted medic and the Mafia know they can get kills off with the medic still living THE TOWN LOSES. Point blank. Because the longer the medic lives in the open with the claim the more sketchy the medic looks. If a shifty medic lives a few more nights he gets to protect people + we don't waste a lynching. I guess if I live tonight, role claim DT tomorrow and say I got an innocent result on Fishball I deserve to live right? Because I might be a blue and no one counter-claimed me. As I explained before, if anyone role-claims blue I would assume they are indeed blue, or red, but at any rate not green. At this point you've sort of made too many confusing arguments for my taste, so I would be leaning towards red. The one thing making me hesitant is this: On March 22 2010 02:34 L wrote: I think this game is going to be worth watching from the outside to see Ace and Vivi go at it. Of course, if what's going on here is a pre-existing grudge it would mean you aren't doing the town (or yourself) any favors. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I am going by this, unless I screwed up the counting: - The earliest the mafia can win is night 3. The chance of this occurring randomly is approximately 24%. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On March 27 2010 00:01 haster27 wrote: Lol I think nobody is paying attention to this thread that much to have pulled off maneuver that tried to save vivi57. Either way, I thought it did not matter b/c he was going to get Mafia-killed right after anyway, and we did not have any secondary clear suspect to go against. We also didn't have a clear no. 1 suspect though. The important thing is: do you think it was the right call to lynch him after he claimed blue? | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
Anyway, to this: On March 27 2010 00:58 Ace wrote: at the end of the day, you voted for Vivi to die and you weren't here to "save" him. I stick by my decision that he should have been dead no matter what he claims because he's terrible regardless. We can talk about and I can show you multiple examples of why you don't trust Day 1 medic claims after this is over. Whether you trust the claim is not the point. Especially with this set-up: killing a suspected red on day one keeps KP unchanged; killing a medic, bad. The downside >> upside as far as I can tell. Anyway. Nobody else seems to care, so... it is what it is. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
Silence is good for mafia at this point. | ||
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citi.zen
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On March 27 2010 03:43 Versatile wrote: thoughts? i wasn't around when the roleclaim occurred, and he was already lynched when i got back. what more is there to say? Do you think it was the right decision? Would you have changed your vote had you been online? Why/why not? | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
Rather, given vivi did claim (instead of defending himself) - what should a good pro-town player have done? Vote them off or not? Is getting rid of a weak player worth wasting a lynching and losing a medic? + Show Spoiler + As a side note, Vivi didn't intend to claim as a deliberate strategy, he only did it when it became pretty clear he was getting lynched anyway. This addresses both #1 and #2 in your post. Of course, I still think he should have argued his way out of it rather than flap his hands and say byebye - I told you so at the last moment. | ||
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citi.zen
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citi.zen
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+ Show Spoiler + On March 26 2010 13:46 citi.zen wrote: Next day there still isn't any good reason for the town to lynch him, unless the mafia happened to kill a medic during the night making it plainly obvious he was lying. Otherwise the same logic applies: let the mafia waste the KP and/or wait for a DT check or a competing medic claim/death to clarify things/provide more information. If a red role-claims they are taking a major risk: the "real" blue is out there looking to nail them. This is a better position for town than what we have now. If the "real" medic somehow dies the town automatically knows the initial role-claim was false and bam, we have a red. The bottom line is that there is no reason for the town to risk killing a blue. Even if the mafia lets them live to spread confusion, or even if the claim was false and he was red, the town has more information. Again, I feel like you know all this and we're just going through the motions here. On March 26 2010 22:56 citi.zen wrote: It seems wrong to assume an untrustworthy medic is useless. As long as they are alive, the medic can still protect people each night. Worst case scenario: they protect scum, and people still get killed, no worse than having no medic. However, there is a chance they will protect someone the mafia would hit, particularly in such a small game where it’s not THAT hard to keep track of who is doing what. There are no PMs in this game, everyone plays in the open & the medic decides what to do/who to protect. It thus makes very little difference if the town thinks the medic is "legit". If a red lied and the “real” medic is still alive there are plenty of scenarios where it makes sense for them to RC. For example… if there is only one red left in the game - the fake claimer. Once the medic is about to be lynched anyway they might as well try to take a bullet - it's better than dying for no reason what-so-ever. Play to win, not to get even, right? I never said the DT should RC immediately. There are scenarios down the road when, if the DT is still alive and the guy who claims medic is acting really shifty or there is a limited set of suspects it might make sense to RC them. If a shifty medic lives a few more nights he gets to protect people + we don't waste a lynching. As I explained before, if anyone role-claims blue I would assume they are indeed blue, or red, but at any rate not green. At this point you've sort of made too many confusing arguments for my taste, so I would be leaning towards red. The one thing making me hesitant is this: Of course, if what's going on here is a pre-existing grudge it would mean you aren't doing the town (or yourself) any favors. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On March 27 2010 10:07 Versatile wrote: yeah, yo. i voted for you citizen. what the are you questioning us for again? aren't you the person who was online and could have saved him? I won't make another comment on your reading skills so others don't say I am being unnecessarily harsh, but here: On March 26 2010 11:50 citi.zen wrote: As far as I go, he claimed medic at the wrong time: I left work, came home and spent time with the family, until the kid went to sleep.When I did see his post and had time to digest it I decided it made sense to switch. Unfortunately it was too late. I don't get how other people who were active in this and/or the other mafia game during this time did not reach the same conclusion. It's pretty rare to lynch someone who claims blue, in any mafia game, no? Ace, haster27, Fishball, Abenson, johnnyspazz (other thread) were all active after Vivi's claim but missed that. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On March 27 2010 10:17 Versatile wrote: didn't see that. i skip over most of your posts. i've decided they're useless. : ) Might as well stop pretending to reply to them then, no? Much appreciated. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On March 27 2010 10:37 Ace wrote: I find it funny that you voted to lynch Vivi but are trying to lay the blame game on everyone else. Hilarious. I sure did. Before he role-claimed. I am not trying to place the blame on anyone, just to get the town to think and contribute. "Play to win" and all that. Or not, we could just sit here silent and follow the other game. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
@ Ace - I am not surprised at all. I argued with two people: Versatile and yourself. She died. I look suspicious. You are alive. As stated multiple times, I also disagree with your statement that lynching Vivi was the right call, even after you saw he claimed medic. It's all in the thread, town-aligned players would read those exchanges. I'll say this: take my posts out and you have nothing going on in this thread. Make up your own mids what, if anything, that means about my alignment. If we screw up the day 2 lynch it's 3 v 2 on day 3, so all 3 town players would need to agree to vote for the same red player. Maybe it's time to start contributing. ##Vote Ace## | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
You already know just like everyone else that Vivi claiming Medic wasn't going to change my vote. I've already explain that. Yup. You did explain, and I told you why I think your reasoning was questionable. The debate ended with you saying that you would explain further, but only after "this" is over: On March 27 2010 00:58 Ace wrote: at the end of the day, you voted for Vivi to die and you weren't here to "save" him. I stick by my decision that he should have been dead no matter what he claims because he's terrible regardless. We can talk about and I can show you multiple examples of why you don't trust Day 1 medic claims after this is over. Ok... suit yourself. Next sentence please. On the other hand YOU could have saved him. You didn't change your vote and now want to make it look like I'm at fault. I've stood by my decision wholeheartedly while you are not even acknowledging you yourself are a cause of his death. More sketchy logic/selective reading. Of course, I already answered this in detail, twice in fact, and directly to Ace. Yet he continues to "forget".For the sake of playing along, here is what I said: On March 26 2010 11:50 citi.zen wrote: As far as I go, he claimed medic at the wrong time: I left work, came home and spent time with the family, until the kid went to sleep.When I did see his post and had time to digest it I decided it made sense to switch. Unfortunately it was too late. I don't get how other people who were active in this and/or the other mafia game during this time did not reach the same conclusion. It's pretty rare to lynch someone who claims blue, in any mafia game, no? Ace, haster27, Fishball, Abenson, johnnyspazz (other thread) were all active after Vivi's claim but missed that. And no, even if my vote switch were on time, I still could not have saved Vivi by myself, since in the event of a tie the first person with 3 votes still gets lynched. Likewise if you take my posts out of this thread game activity drops also. Of course, "game activity drops" if you take any posts out of the thread. This is a moot point, different from my stronger claim: On March 27 2010 11:42 citi.zen wrote: I'll say this: take my posts out and you have nothing going on in this thread. Make up your own mids what, if anything, that means about my alignment. This is of course my own assessment - you all need to make up your own minds here. | ||
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