Play-In Round 1 - September 25th - 28th - Ten teams are divided into two groups where they play a Single Round Robin format. - All matches are played in a Bo1. - Top teams in each group advance to Group Stage. - 2nd, 3rd and 4th teams in each group advance to Play-In: Round 2. - Bottom team in each group is eliminated.
Play-In Round 2 - September 29th - 30th - Six teams from Play-In: Round 1. - The 3rd and 4th placed teams of the same group of Round 1 face each other, winners compete against the 2nd placed team of the other group - All matches are played in a Bo5. - Two winners will advance to Group Stage. - Four losers will be eliminated.
Group Stage - October 3rd - 6th & 8th - 11th - Four teams from the Play-In Stage join twelve teams with direct entry from China, South Korea, Europe, North America and Southeast Asia. - All sixteen teams are divided into four groups where they play a Double -Round Robin format. - All matches are played in a Bo1. - Top two teams in each group advance to Playoffs. - Bottom two teams in each group are eliminated.
Playoffs - October 15th - 18th | 24th - 25th | 31st (Shanghai) -Eight teams play in a single-elimination bracket over five matchdays. -All matches are Bo5.
After the draw my predictions are MAD and LGD top their groups and instantly get out, TL and UoL get second, so TL vs Talon and UoL vs Supermassive for the other two spots
And with that NA's hope to advance out of groups is confirmed zero. Zero chance TSM makes it out over Fnatic/Gen.G and Fly is dead on arrival with Top and DRX.
Even with the assumption Liquid makes it out of Play Ins, they're forced into A or B, which isn't going to possible either
Group A: Looks fairly easy for G2 and SN, because 4th spot will not be a KR, CN or EU team. Group B: 2 of my top 3 teams in one group, but this isn't going to be a group of death so they shouldn't be worried. Poor RGE. Group C: FNC and GenG probably prefer each other over the likes of TES/DWG/JDG. Since LGD is likely going to be in this group, it's actually the toughest group to get out of, most evenly matched group at Worlds. Group D: TES gold lead @ 20 min vs DRX is good indicator for how likely they are going to win Worlds.
Top 2 teams EU got fairly easy draws, CN and KR likely to get 3 seeds through, NA only have one realistic chance to make it out of groups (Group C), since TL will end up in Group A (hard) or B (impossible).
On September 15 2020 22:30 Gahlo wrote: Gotta say, having 4 China and 4 EU makes group structure really rigid and predictable, kinda takes some of the spectacle off of group draws.
I agree, but I understand why they had to do it this way given no MSI and no VCS teams. Next year should be back to normal from my understanding.
Looking forward to see someone crash and burn in TSM vs Fnatic. Dream scenario would be GenGarbage sneakily replacing Gen.G and both Western teams advancing, but it's hard to be that optimistic.
Talon is having a hard time with Visas and quarantine, so they've gotten Unified and Kongyue from ahq and dee from machi as a substitute. From the looks of it Dee will have to play for Unified for a match or two as well, then the roster gets back together for the main event should they qualify.
Sucks for Talon in general, and sucks for the other teams in their group that LGD is also there so they're unlikely to get 1st and capitalize on the weakness. Also the message specifically thanks Flash Wolves, who I thought dissolved as an organization? Seems super weird they stuck around the scene but didnt even try to get into PCS
Good question, I wondered too. The macro is better on high mmr KR than the super server, and watching streams it becomes apparent there's an unholy number of otp players. Seeing Fiora and Kata every second game kind of blows. There are also a fair number of games I've seen where it really does feel like one person is either boosted or griefing.
Games are still fun to watch, there's a lot of crazy mechanics, and it's good lane practice. I'm personally surprised how Bjerg seems to win lane and even macro almost every game, nothing flashy he just plays so clean. Meanwhile Bwipo is go big or go home, he's trying the outplay even when it's dumb.
I heard it was because they were only given accounts to the Chinese server, not the Korean server? Kinda interesting as it's definitely been fun watching the superserver shenanigans like Pinoy and the Chinese streamers.
On September 20 2020 06:00 ghrur wrote: I heard it was because they were only given accounts to the Chinese server, not the Korean server? Kinda interesting as it's definitely been fun watching the superserver shenanigans like Pinoy and the Chinese streamers.
Yeah, they rely on accounts from Riot. If they wanted to play on KR they would've needed to rank up their account without the inflated MMR.
I thought it was because access to high MMR KR accounts was delayed, they would still have gotten them. After all, all the pros played on KR when it was there last time, I doubt Riot would only let them have one account in CN.
The super server is definitely fun to watch, but the macro quality is different to Challenger KR. Stomp games aren't restricted to either region though, it's funny seeing a DRX duo or Knight go 0/10.
What are we thinking pre games? I think Play in A could have any of MAD, TL and SuperMassive in any of the top 3 spots. Group B should have LGD in 1st pretty easy, with either UoL or chimera PSG in 2nd and the other in 3rd
Yeah, I can see that happening. Tbh, the single round Robin means that anyone who messes up their first few games are at a severe disadvantage. LGD shouldn't struggle, but I can see either MAD or TL losing a single game and it hounding them for the rest of the play in as they play catch up.
The only reason I'm not putting chimera PSG as definitively 3rd is because I'm scared of the UoL bot lane. This is the UoL roster that was the Vega roster that lost the spot in MSI because their bot lane was inting. Then they swapped bot lanes for Innaxe and Edward, and then swapped back when Innaxe went to S04. It definitely depends for me what matches in Play ins PSG gets unified and when they get Dee. Because with Dee theyre probably fucked against any of the other top 3 potentials
On September 25 2020 06:03 chipmonklord17 wrote: The only reason I'm not putting chimera PSG as definitively 3rd is because I'm scared of the UoL bot lane. This is the UoL roster that was the Vega roster that lost the spot in MSI because their bot lane was inting. Then they swapped bot lanes for Innaxe and Edward, and then swapped back when Innaxe went to S04. It definitely depends for me what matches in Play ins PSG gets unified and when they get Dee. Because with Dee theyre probably fucked against any of the other top 3 potentials
Their botlane is way stronger than the topside, even if they had an awful MSI 1,5 years ago against solid lane 2v2s.
And it wasn't even their intention to swap botlane, Edward just had an agreement with UoL and was forced into the team, which nearly led to the collapse xd.
Ugh this is going to be a hard one to watch, it starts at 1 am here so there’s really no way I can watch the whole thing live, I have to either stay up and watch the first hour or two or wake up early and catch the end
That's exactly why I will be watching it on YT: put the stream on pause for an hour, then rewind to when the games start so I don't have to watch useless filler. I might watch TL vs MAD live today.
MAD looked shaky, I think they went into the game with the mindset that clean, passive play will win them the game. But they picked Eve Panth... That Urgot was hilarious, he was 60 cs down @ 18 min and botched first blood, but somehow still carried hard.
I haven't watched NA this split, but I don't enjoy listening to Phreak, he sounds so bored.
On September 25 2020 18:11 DarkCore wrote: MAD looked shaky, I think they went into the game with the mindset that clean, passive play will win them the game. But they picked Eve Panth... That Urgot was hilarious, he was 60 cs down @ 18 min and botched first blood, but somehow still carried hard.
I haven't watched NA this split, but I don't enjoy listening to Phreak, he sounds so bored.
On September 25 2020 18:17 DarkCore wrote: Ah lol, who were the casters then?
Captain Flowers (who I think is super overrated and kinda meh) and Raz the guy that used to cast LPL and now is in Golden Guardians and also casted academy I think
Ah you're right, it is Captain Flowers, didn't like him in LPL either (probably because to me he sounds like Phreak haha). I like Raz though, he's knowledgeable and energetic.
Game 2 is how you would expect a major region to play vs a wild card. Gold lead wasn't actually that big, but they couldn't win any team fights.
Not a fan of MAD Eve pick, they don't seem to do much with it.
TL clearly better team. Like to think that if Camille didn't die those first 2 times and could push side properly it might have gone differently, but MAD had no real answer for Twitch (despite running a comp which was designed to murder him in fights).
Since 2nd seed from each group don't play each other, this doesn't change the likelihood of who makes it out. LGD won't play MAD, unless either loses again and ends up 3rd seed...
-Not sure on Evelynn, she’s definitely very strong but I could see her being a champ that is just significantly worse in pro. Think I’ll wait to see another team play it before putting it on the pick because MAD looked bad for several reasons.
-Lucian mid is definitely first pick material but both Lucian players greifed it today. Especially Xiye, I hate the tear build because you come online at the same time as Orianna, and Is rather have an Ori, but he Greifed it even harder going for a zeal item before IE so he’s just a tickle machine compared to his lane opponent.
-Twitch is still possibly good but I think it’s hard to say because mad was really bad, specifically when Shadow counter ganked broxah he and Kaiser let twitch tank the minion wave unmolested setting up a freeeze for himself that negated the entire lead built off the early flash force, it was a mistake you don’t even expect in solo queue, let alone worlds.
I would still maintain that this was their best solution, assuming they refused to change format from the start like every year. A format change with 3 teams from the major regions would have been ideal, but I'll give them a COVID pass
On September 26 2020 21:37 chipmonklord17 wrote: I would still maintain that this was their best solution, assuming they refused to change format from the start like every year. A format change with 3 teams from the major regions would have been ideal, but I'll give them a COVID pass
Yeah, I'm not going to hold it against Riot because this is a lot of decisions they're kind of being forced into. I just hope it's something they don't carry over to future Worlds.
I mean, with LGD floundering like this, it's good they didn't make it straight to the main tournament, so I don't mind too much. Now I do worry that MAD is going to have to play LGD, who will suddenly decide to play better when it's their final chance. Don't forget that LGD made it to Worlds by beating an OKish WE and a dumpster fire iG. They were destroyed by SN and JDG, LGD went 0-8 vs SN this split. Top 3 CN teams should be much stronger than this. 4 teams from CN and EU does look a bit too deep though, agreed.
The top half of the CN league was fairly competitive for most of the year, but outside of TES, JDG, and SN, nobody seemed to improve much in summer. That was painfully apparent because iG was winning so much, despite having glaring weaknesses, which were exposed when LGD beat them in 2 Bo5 by playing fairly normal.
Minor regions should be happy that their top seeds are better than EU and CN 4th seeds. Even if they don't achieve anything in the main event, knowing they're not miles behind major regions must be nice.
Rooting for TL, they seem to deserve it far more than LGD and MAD.
On September 27 2020 00:23 DarkCore wrote: Minor regions should be happy that their top seeds are better than EU and CN 4th seeds. Even if they don't achieve anything in the main event, knowing they're not miles behind major regions must be nice.
Rooting for TL, they seem to deserve it far more than LGD and MAD.
Hasn't that been the case recently anyway, with them nipping at the heels of 3 seeds? At least now we can stop hearing about super deep regions.
Nah, people won't ever shut up about how much talent CN/KR has, and LS will gladly tell you JAG is better than G2.
Tbh I'm surprised how poorly LGD is doing. I thought they would easily make it to the main event, and get dumpstered there, but now there's a fair chance neither LGD or MAD will make it. They're going to have to play a series vs 3rd/4th in their group, and then a tough series vs 2nd seed.
I know common sentiment is that lol 4th seeds, and people don't want to see them at world's next year... But honestly I want to see every major regions 4th seeds in play ins next year along with the 2nd seeds of wildcard regions. Give us s chance to truly judge the strength and depth of regions relative to one another. Like yeah, G2 is better than all of NA by a wide margin, but they're also better than all of EU by the same margin, too.
Kind of disappointing seeing this group stage that the other 4th seeds arn't around; Blaber would have had a field day with this play in groups jungle; is world's even world's without Faker? I wish we could have been able to see like Prime SKT era LCK 4th seeds like Jin Air against teams like C9, TSM, TL or even say a Dignitas... Be neat to really see how things stack up, instead of having to hear biased caster analysis from people like Yamato or LS who coming into this tournament would have had you believe that MAD / LGD were better than anyone from NA, and years past where there was this idea that NA and EU couldn't touch Korea. Maybe they could touch Korea, just not SKT, which... To be fair Korea couldn't touch SKT either.
I always enjoy the play in stages the most at world's. Imo they should just double it in size. Bring first and second seeds from wild cards, bring 4th seeds from all major regions and third seeds from the two "lesser" major regions. It's like March madness, falling in love with an underdog is the best part.
On September 27 2020 03:23 iCanada wrote: I know common sentiment is that lol 4th seeds, and people don't want to see them at world's next year... But honestly I want to see every major regions 4th seeds in play ins next year along with the 2nd seeds of wildcard regions. Give us s chance to truly judge the strength and depth of regions relative to one another. Like yeah, G2 is better than all of NA by a wide margin, but they're also better than all of EU by the same margin, too.
Kind of disappointing seeing this group stage that the other 4th seeds arn't around; Blaber would have had a field day with this play in groups jungle; is world's even world's without Faker? I wish we could have been able to see like Prime SKT era LCK 4th seeds like Jin Air against teams like C9, TSM, TL or even say a Dignitas... Be neat to really see how things stack up, instead of having to hear biased caster analysis from people like Yamato or LS who coming into this tournament would have had you believe that MAD / LGD were better than anyone from NA, and years past where there was this idea that NA and EU couldn't touch Korea. Maybe they could touch Korea, just not SKT, which... To be fair Korea couldn't touch SKT either.
I always enjoy the play in stages the most at world's. Imo they should just double it in size. Bring first and second seeds from wild cards, bring 4th seeds from all major regions and third seeds from the two "lesser" major regions. It's like March madness, falling in love with an underdog is the best part.
Let's just have every team from every league compete in play ins! jokes aside I agree that adding a couple more teams would improve play ins
I think having LGD and MAD there to contrast with makes a big difference. Idk, I think it's a nice touch, personally.
I guess it just really depends on how much time you have available, but I think it would be neat. If you didn't want to raise costs that much you could do the secondary teams you're adding in as an online play in to the play in.
On September 27 2020 04:17 iCanada wrote: I think having LGD and MAD there to contrast with makes a big difference. Idk, I think it's a nice touch, personally.
I guess it just really depends on how much time you have available, but I think it would be neat. If you didn't want to raise costs that much you could do the secondary teams you're adding in as an online play in to the play in.
Yeah especially for play-ins online is a super easy solution, after all it really is just a qualifier for worlds
Play ins is the only exposure many of the minor regions get at Worlds, making it online seems a bit disappointing for them.
I like the chance that 4th seeds have been given, but the game quality hasn't been particularly high. Play ins shouldn't be made bigger, it isn't the main focus and there are a lot of games people don't watch, either due to quality or because unknown teams. This year might be an anomaly, maybe 4th seeds from other years would have performed better, but I don't think really think it would be fun to see every year.
On September 27 2020 05:53 DarkCore wrote: Play ins is the only exposure many of the minor regions get at Worlds, making it online seems a bit disappointing for them.
I like the chance that 4th seeds have been given, but the game quality hasn't been particularly high. Play ins shouldn't be made bigger, it isn't the main focus and there are a lot of games people don't watch, either due to quality or because unknown teams. This year might be an anomaly, maybe 4th seeds from other years would have performed better, but I don't think really think it would be fun to see every year.
Oh I agree, im not saying that the wildcards should have to play online. I'm proposing that we get the guys who UoL, R7, legacy, and Supermassive beat, have them play online vs say Cloud9, T1, MAD, and LGD. Best of this pool gets to have MAD & LGDs spot in the play ins.
My thought was just I wasn't sure how feasible it would be to have twice as many games in play ins, have riot fly in twice as many people, deal with visas etc, secure the event for longer, pay more casters... Etc.
Idea would be less "take away wildcard exposure" and more "give all regions more chance at exposure."
To be honest, Riot is going to be faced with a serious format problem next year and will have to address it in some way. In their current state, the international competitions of the prior year effect how seeding is done the following year. Let's say best case for wildcards scenario, SuperMassive and UoL advance in 1st from their groups tomorrow/Monday, how do you rank that against the VCS teams that are literally not there? I don't think anyone would argue that GenG, who was supposed to be in play ins, would have done better than MAD or LGD, but what about the Marines? How well would team Flash have done in the Main Event given they had a stacked VCS roster?
Hopefully, if wildcard regions do well this year Riot will scrap the format we have now and just do old TI style 2 large groups that feed into a bracket stage instead of Play Ins + Worlds, but I'm doubtful.
Hypothetically speaking you could run the 12 teams current in Main Event, LCS3, PCS2, LCL1, LJL1, LLA1, CBLoL1, OPL1, TCL1, VCS1 and VCS 2 as two groups of 11, eliminate the bottom X, and have everything else feed into a (double elimination) bracket
^This. I've been clamoring for a big change in the Worlds format for years now. It's extremely dumb that the biggest tournament in one of the most watched esports in the world has only so few games to showcase how regions and their teams match against each other. Imagine you are a team that grinds the game all year long for this chance to get to play at Worlds then you get seeded in groups, play 6 Bo1 against 3 other teams and get eliminated. No 2nd chances to counteract variance in group strength, no epic storylines of redemption, nothing until next year, if you make it there again, maybe.
Hopefully they will be more open to having some sort of double-elimination bracket since LCS and LEC both have double-elim brackets in their playoffs this year. Having teams get knocked out early but making miracle runs (e.g. TSM) is super hype plus it increases the chance that the best teams actually get to the later stages of a tournament.
If PSG makes it out of Play Ins and gets destroyed with their real roster, there are going to be a lot of unhappy people and lots of what ifs. Uniboy and Kongyue aren't just substitutes, they're the primary carries every game while the rest of PSG kind of play along.
As we all talk about how shit LGD have played, we did have FPX get dunked on for all of group stage, barely scrape out, and win the whole thing last year
Don't be so pessimistic, these matches have all been seen fairly close. Won't comment on quality (outside of PSG, nobody in the group seemed good, UOL was 50/50), but I think UoL has a fair chance since they will play vs 3rd/4th seeds. It's unlikely they will get TL or SUP, whoever wins their next match is 1st seed, both have easy 2nd games, so unless a crazy tiebreaker happens, they're going to be 1st/2nd seed.
Most likely UoL will play MAD, and I'm not rooting for them, they started falling apart end of split and still haven't recovered.
On September 27 2020 23:11 iCanada wrote: My question is how awful is the rest of AHQ that Uniboy and Kongyue didn't roll over PCS? I don't get it. Those two carried so so hard in playins.
Also LGD gifted that game. Jesus. V3 somehow picked multiple losing lanes and gets hard outscaled at the same time. Some kind of awful.
Honestly this, not to rain on the parade of "but they're subs" but this PSG team is probably the best team PCS could produce and definitely a step up from their real roster
I’m glad the rules state they must revert to the main roster once they are cleared. Takes an immense weight off of everyone that a choice doesn’t exist to be made.
I wanted v3 to win the tie breaker so bad just because I still think LGD will beat anyone in a bo5 but it’s looking grim for the loser of tl vs sup, mad actually big brain by qualifying 3/4
So with LGD now in the knockout-stage of play-in, should group A teams prefer to get 3rd/4th in group over 2nd? So they can avoid LGD? Beating INTZ or Legacy and then UOL might be easier than LGD, despite the showings so far (which are a very small sample size).
On September 28 2020 04:46 Redox wrote: So with LGD now in the knockout-stage of play-in, should group A teams prefer to get 3rd/4th in group over 2nd? So they can avoid LGD? Beating INTZ or Legacy and then UOL might be easier than LGD, despite the showings so far (which are a very small sample size).
Depends on if teams think LGD sucking ass in the round robin is their actual level or a weird funk.
On September 28 2020 18:03 DarkCore wrote: TL plays boring but very clean, exactly what you need in play ins. No need to risk if you know you're the better team.
I agree usually but I don't think that last game was boring at all
Meant boring Playstyle, not boring game. They are way more fun to watch than the tragedy that is MAD. It's looking likely they won't even make it out of groups if they can't beat LGC.
MAD just inting to get 4th and avoid LGD. But honestly, they look terrible.
I always try to be cautios with taking single games too serious, but this looks like a downward spiral. Maybe they can pick themselves up with a good run in the elimination bracket.
Haha wtf TL, you lose to INTZ, then LGC beats SUP: Instead of easy first seed, you have to play a tiebreaker for it. This is even funnier than MAD and LGD being trash.
On September 28 2020 20:56 DarkCore wrote: Haha wtf TL, you lose to INTZ, then LGC beats SUP: Instead of easy first seed, you have to play a tiebreaker for it. This is even funnier than MAD and LGD being trash.
I dont see it as that big of a deal, a loss in a bo1 can always happen.
MAD and LGD having to fight their way out is way more interesting. Although what would be funny is if MAD made it into groups now while TL somehow loses. Even though it does not seem likely, TL got a good opponent with Legacy imo.
TL did poop all over Legacy once. But I think it would have been nice for TL to have locked in the 4th win vs INTZ. I think that the Renekton and Lillia picks were a bit of limit testing, tbh. Neither are really TL style picks; TL usually less strong early junglers with scaling lanes / teamfighting, but Lillia is weak early with scaling and Renekton is strong Laning with poor teamfighting.
I definitely don't agree with the BC from Micao, I don't know whos armor he plans on shredding or particularly why. Kog is going to be AP and if Camile can't dive kill a carry without the armor shred they're already pretty fucked. MAD stacking drakes is pretty scary
Yeah I was almost sure it was over when Kogmaw got to 16 with the team in leading position and top beign so far ahead. Seems like all they needed to do was split pushing and having the other 4 poke at MAD. No need to ever engage.
Yeah, one bracket looks a lot more stacked than the other. I'm expecting that in a Bo5 LGD will handily beat R7 and LGC, but I can see any of UoL/MAD/SUP winning the final spot.
If MAD gets knocked out we'll pretend they were a wildcard team and the winner of the bracket is the real European 4th seed. Moscow and Istanbul are closer to LEC studio than MAD's HQ in Madrid so it's totally believable.
Really surprised TL lost to INTZ considering how they looked against the rest of the group. Honestly I would be surprised if the othe 2 qualifiers don’t come from group B.
I hope Broxah stays as pro-active through the tournament. I don't know if his movement was instigated because the enemy's movement being so poor, or they have actually sharpened up some of their pro-activity. What do you guys think?
On September 29 2020 00:56 Slusher wrote: Really surprised TL lost to INTZ considering how they looked against the rest of the group. Honestly I would be surprised if the othe 2 qualifiers don’t come from group B.
I have mixed feelings on Lillia picks in pro.
She seems super annoying against some comps, but the moment she gets behind it's hard to make plays because she is just a bowling bot that gets blown up. I don't know the winrate on Lillia jungle so far this tournament, but it's definitely not a standout.
Might be a soloq special that doesn't translate to pro play as well simply because it's such a win more pick. The better teams group better, position better and so on.
On September 29 2020 00:56 Slusher wrote: Really surprised TL lost to INTZ considering how they looked against the rest of the group. Honestly I would be surprised if the othe 2 qualifiers don’t come from group B.
I have mixed feelings on Lillia picks in pro.
She seems super annoying against some comps, but the moment she gets behind it's hard to make plays because she is just a bowling bot that gets blown up. I don't know the winrate on Lillia jungle so far this tournament, but it's definitely not a standout.
Might be a soloq special that doesn't translate to pro play as well simply because it's such a win more pick. The better teams group better, position better and so on.
Highest p/b with a 28.6% win rate. But only 7 games.
On September 29 2020 00:56 Slusher wrote: Really surprised TL lost to INTZ considering how they looked against the rest of the group. Honestly I would be surprised if the othe 2 qualifiers don’t come from group B.
I have mixed feelings on Lillia picks in pro.
She seems super annoying against some comps, but the moment she gets behind it's hard to make plays because she is just a bowling bot that gets blown up. I don't know the winrate on Lillia jungle so far this tournament, but it's definitely not a standout.
Might be a soloq special that doesn't translate to pro play as well simply because it's such a win more pick. The better teams group better, position better and so on.
Highest p/b with a 28.6% win rate. But only 7 games.
Ori and graves are the standouts for winrate. Good presence for Ori in lane and her teamfighting has always been stellar, especially with the high presence of setup champs.
Graves is interesting though as the other high pick rate high winrate champ.
Dunno if it's reflected in the results but both Ori and Graves seem good for playing with the "I'm much better than them and need something to safely control the game" attitude.
Actually I’m going to throw in Ornn too (who was undefeated until tie breaker 2 today) if I’m to believe what the analysts who watch lpl tell me you will not get tank handshake for blind picking Ornn come group stage.
He picks Voli because he can't really play anything else. It's supposed to be a lane dominant pick but people have figured out how to play around the champ.
I do not understand how Orome on Morde can be behind in cs when Shen teleports bot lane, it's a 10cs lead. I have seen him fall beind in cs so many games while providing negative pressure on the map, biggest weakness of MAD besides terrible decision making.
Idk why Orome waited so long to ult Kakao. I replayed it slowed down, smite and death realm were cast at exactly the same time, smite barely went through. Of all the Orome fuckups so far, this one was the worst.
On September 29 2020 18:48 Redox wrote: Idk why Orome waited so long to ult Kakao. I replayed it slowed down, smite and death realm were cast at exactly the same time, smite barely went through. Of all the Orome fuckups so far, this one was the worst.
I can't believe that MAD would try to shoehorn that Wukong Senna bot lane a second time, that is some awful drafting. It didn't work the first time, and the second time SUP drafted a kill lane which was able to delete Wukong during Leo CC.
Ffs, please draft a normal(ish) comp in game 5 and just play. Give Orome a tank, Humanoid and Carzzy real carries, Kaiser a real support and Shadow one of his comfort picks. At least then they have a 50/50 chance to win.
Well on the plus side, we're guaranteed a wild card team in main stage. On the negative side I really really wish we had both UoL and SuperMassive in groups
God MAD played so badly, it really hurt. Armut destroyed Orome every single game, bad bot lane drafts, Shadow doing nothing, poor team fighting, getting caught out for no reason. So much wrong with this team, 4th seeds should be removed next year.
I think it's justified to be MAD because they had some very obvious problems in their drafting and the comps they prepared looked shaky: Senna Wukong twice, Carzzy on Senna in general, blind pick Renekton, the terrible Eve games. Then ofc the execution problems.
Tbh, MAD's performance was one of the biggest bombs in LoL this year, along with iG. MAD went from 3rd in spring playoffs, first for most of the summer season. Then they flopped by ending second in summer season, and made it to Worlds by winning a single series vs SO4, while losing vs G2 and RGE. Usually, that's a tragic run which ends with a team barely missing out on Worlds.
I mean it's justified to be disappointed in general, but people shouldn't be too harsh on Lions specifically because it seems like they are actually a weak team that overperformed greatly in the summer split and in one match against G2 in the spring split playoffs. Imagine if TL played like them. That would be a much better reason to get mad because we know we can expect better from Impact, Broxah, Jensen and CoreJJ.
I think LGC wins that if Draven didn't have lethality items. I hate that itemization, just falls off so hard compared to Crit items. Literally in that last fight Draven has base attack speed and is only doing 380 damage per auto.
When you build like that you need to win in 30 minutes or you're not a real ADC, you're urgot with a third of the HP. When you see you're on pace for a 22 minute first blood I think you have to change your itemization.
Edit: oooof. In that Kass quadra fight, TF locks in 3 straight blue cards. Unlucky. One of those lands gold and Kass dies and legacy just straight wins.
So fucking happy for UoL, really hoping they'd find their way in group A so they stood even close to a chance of getting out. But seeing them in main stage is worth it anyway.
A: After seeing how good TL played and that PSG was only second PCS seed, I think the group is tougher for G2 than anticipated. But I don't see G2 and Suning failing to make it out, TL's safe playstyle isn't going to be enough.
B: Hopefully RGE shows up and brings back some EU honor, but I don't see them getting out of groups, just hoping for closish games.
C: Should be hardest group, but only if LGD turns up. Who knows...
D: I wouldn't be surprised if UoL manage to take a game off coin flip DRX, but this group is pretty set in stone as well.
I wouldn't rate Machi based on the all star line up that Talon could use in play ins. I fully expect Machi to go 0-6, maybe they pick up a game max. Talon will go 0-6, but that's because their group is just too hard and they just immediately downgraded their roster to their real one.
I agree, but I still feel that Machi shouldn't be entirely written off yet. We never saw PSG play vs TL either, so it's hard to compare, and there's a chance a crappy G2 turns up at Worlds.
I don't know, at this point I think Suning is the biggest question mark of that group. G2 deserves the benefit of the doubt in my opinion. I think the most likely scenario is G2/Suning in 1st/2nd in some order. I see TL's angle as taking an upset on G2 and splitting with Suning so the standings end G2 5-1 TL 4-2 Suning 3-3 Machi 0-6
or vice versa with Suning being the 5-1 and G2 being the 3-3 but even that seems like a big stretch for TL, save for a Suning collapse.
So after watching all of group stage, some thoughts on drafts going into the main event.
Ornn is busted AF. Orianna is up there, but I think that also has to do with the high prevalence of setup champs. Ali in 3rd for biggest pick. Kindred or Graves also open up flexing things bot.
Kassadin is also quietly insane. Just about autowin in the hands of pretty much any of the mid laners the moment he ticks over to 16 as long as his team isn't like 20k down. I don't think many of the common worlds mid picks atm can bully him hard enough, and he wins a passive lane.
Pure tanks (aside from Ornn, he's a fightermagepaladinassassinrogue as well) don't seem to be that good in top lane. Fighters just get you too much of a pressure advantage.
Lillia I think is the biggest loser. Her setup for a fight is just too slow and inconsistent for the meta at the moment. The meta has been a lot heavier on engage rather than the slower fights Lillia likes. Fair number of examples where Lillia is fed, but still can't win fights because the other champs get blown up before Lillia can get her damage in.
On October 01 2020 10:15 Amui wrote: So after watching all of group stage, some thoughts on drafts going into the main event.
Ornn is busted AF. Orianna is up there, but I think that also has to do with the high prevalence of setup champs. Ali in 3rd for biggest pick. Kindred or Graves also open up flexing things bot.
Kassadin is also quietly insane. Just about autowin in the hands of pretty much any of the mid laners the moment he ticks over to 16 as long as his team isn't like 20k down. I don't think many of the common worlds mid picks atm can bully him hard enough, and he wins a passive lane.
Pure tanks (aside from Ornn, he's a fightermagepaladinassassinrogue as well) don't seem to be that good in top lane. Fighters just get you too much of a pressure advantage.
Lillia I think is the biggest loser. Her setup for a fight is just too slow and inconsistent for the meta at the moment. The meta has been a lot heavier on engage rather than the slower fights Lillia likes. Fair number of examples where Lillia is fed, but still can't win fights because the other champs get blown up before Lillia can get her damage in.
I've been pretty surprised with the Alistar picks, I can't remember him getting picked much in any of the major region playoffs and I don't think he has any recent buffs. At first I thought maybe it was just a comfort pick for some of the wildcard supports that I was not familiar with but so far it seems pretty decent. Overall I think its been a very fun meta to watch so far and I'm excited for what groups will bring. I'm still not sure on Lillia, I think that that she can still be super strong for some of the better teams, and it seemed as play ins went on she started seeing more success
On October 01 2020 10:15 Amui wrote: So after watching all of group stage, some thoughts on drafts going into the main event.
Ornn is busted AF. Orianna is up there, but I think that also has to do with the high prevalence of setup champs. Ali in 3rd for biggest pick. Kindred or Graves also open up flexing things bot.
Kassadin is also quietly insane. Just about autowin in the hands of pretty much any of the mid laners the moment he ticks over to 16 as long as his team isn't like 20k down. I don't think many of the common worlds mid picks atm can bully him hard enough, and he wins a passive lane.
Pure tanks (aside from Ornn, he's a fightermagepaladinassassinrogue as well) don't seem to be that good in top lane. Fighters just get you too much of a pressure advantage.
Lillia I think is the biggest loser. Her setup for a fight is just too slow and inconsistent for the meta at the moment. The meta has been a lot heavier on engage rather than the slower fights Lillia likes. Fair number of examples where Lillia is fed, but still can't win fights because the other champs get blown up before Lillia can get her damage in.
I think you should take the play ins with a grain of salt, these are pros but not the best by a long shot. Scaling comps are usually a lot more effective at that level because teams can't close games fast or clean enough. Kass is strong, but I don't think a team like TES or DWG will let him farm up until level 16, they either camp him or get a giant lead everywhere else on the map. There will be much better team fighting as well.
Orrn is very strong, agreed. He's almost impossible to push out of lane, has unusual kill pressure, and is an S tier team fighter. Why pick any other tank when Orrn scales better, is a better laner and has better CC.
Imo Lillia is going to be busted starting in Groups. She zooms around the map applying pressure, and when ahead her kiting power makes her unkillable.
On September 30 2020 21:15 DarkCore wrote: Groups draws are out:
A: After seeing how good TL played and that PSG was only second PCS seed, I think the group is tougher for G2 than anticipated. But I don't see G2 and Suning failing to make it out, TL's safe playstyle isn't going to be enough.
B: Hopefully RGE shows up and brings back some EU honor, but I don't see them getting out of groups, just hoping for closish games.
C: Should be hardest group, but only if LGD turns up. Who knows...
D: I wouldn't be surprised if UoL manage to take a game off coin flip DRX, but this group is pretty set in stone as well.
I think group A has potential for surprises. G2 is not looking as consistent as year ago. TL on good day have a shot at upset. I'm not going to discard Republic of China first seed and LPL #3 is neither pushover nor a behemoth.
FLY vs TES UoL vs DRX RGE vs PSG DWG vs JDG GenG vs LGD TSM vs Fnatic
Most are obvious. Hoping RGE shows up, but for Fnatic I am a bit pessimistic as they tend to have a slow start, and the reddit rumour that they are a catastrophe atm reminded me of that. DWG vs JDG is very 50/50, usually JDG starts off slow, but I have a feeling that when they meet again, DWG will be the better team, so this round I vote JDG.
Solo clapped hard in lane in a matchup he cannot afford to lose. His team fighting was better, but so was 369.
TES plated relatively conservative, I think if they wanted to, they could've ended by the 20 minute mark. But why risk when you know you're going to have a free Ocean soul and outscale anyway.
That draft for DRX was a Nidalee player's wet dream. Almost nothing more you can ask for... clear lane to play through with huge CC + lane priority mid, physical damage lean, and the backline carry role late game? Hell yeah. Only other thing you can ask for is a less scary matchup, as Eve can tend to blow up Nidalee if gold differential is within about 1.5K without a major vision lead.
Nice to see Pyosik cash in on it.
On October 03 2020 18:29 starkiller123 wrote: I actually saw someone predict UOL in this matchup lol
People call DRX coin flip, but they just straight up out laned UoL in the first 10 minutes and got free kills, DRX could've inted 3 fights and still be even in gold.
This group is so insanely lopsided lol, everyone knew but it still hurts to watch.
On October 03 2020 18:56 iCanada wrote: That draft for DRX was a Nidalee player's wet dream. Almost nothing more you can ask for... clear lane to play through with huge CC + lane priority mid, physical damage lean, and the backline carry role late game? Hell yeah. Only other thing you can ask for is a less scary matchup, as Eve can tend to blow up Nidalee if gold differential is within about 1.5K without a major vision lead.
I like Larsson's Lucian build. He gets the early game Dirk for lane domination, then gets Crit for lategame scaling. I hate seeing the chinsy full lethality builds, just makes him this useless piece of garbage lategame without really gaining much early game power.
Oh boy, who knew the biggest stomp so far today would come out of RGE. PSG without their subs is going to get so much flak if they get dumpstered every game.
It's sad RGE probably won't make it out of groups, I hope they take at least one game off the big 2, they look like the could.
Man, Damwon is INSANE. They played that game SO well. I don't know how they won some of those fights, like where Kanavi initiated on Beryl / Canyon with his ultimate. I'm also so impressed with how well they know their limits like baiting out the TP while barely out-fighting the 2v2 with Showmaker and Ghost. Just like, wow, this team is insane.
Hmm, another stomp. DWG look really good, but imo the big factor was they won PB pretty hard. They banned Graves and grabbed Nidalee, the S tier junglers (Lillia is only A tier), and Showmaker got his TF. Yagao didn't get one of his comfort picks. JDG botched that invade really hard (good decision by Nuguri), and then Nidalee just does her thing. A bad TP by Zoom also ruined the lane for him.
DWG had some really good team fighting, more than once I didn't understand how they made a bad situation look so lopsided in their favour.
Nope, biggest stomp comes against a world's favourite apparently.
It makes sense though that high level games are stompy; riot hard buffed snowballing and then buffed shutdown. If you don't give up shutdowns, then you just have hard snowballs.
Giving TF away in this meta will just lose you the game imo. Too much utility to have a global quick tp with point and click stun with some burst attached to it.
On October 03 2020 20:39 DarkCore wrote: Hmm, another stomp. DWG look really good, but imo the big factor was they won PB pretty hard. They banned Graves and grabbed Nidalee, the S tier junglers (Lillia is only A tier), and Showmaker got his TF. Yagao didn't get one of his comfort picks. JDG botched that invade really hard (good decision by Nuguri), and then Nidalee just does her thing. A bad TP by Zoom also ruined the lane for him.
DWG had some really good team fighting, more than once I didn't understand how they made a bad situation look so lopsided in their favour.
Nah, I don't think JDG had a worse P/B here. I think it's really the snowball getting out of control. JDG had some really good engages off of Lilia / Nautilus, and they were able to get kills on key members like Nidalee and Jhin even later into the game while being down a lot. I think they just got outplayed due to lvl 1 + 4:30 bot lane fight forcing out the Zoom TP,
On October 03 2020 20:39 DarkCore wrote: Hmm, another stomp. DWG look really good, but imo the big factor was they won PB pretty hard. They banned Graves and grabbed Nidalee, the S tier junglers (Lillia is only A tier), and Showmaker got his TF. Yagao didn't get one of his comfort picks. JDG botched that invade really hard (good decision by Nuguri), and then Nidalee just does her thing. A bad TP by Zoom also ruined the lane for him.
DWG had some really good team fighting, more than once I didn't understand how they made a bad situation look so lopsided in their favour.
And I still hate top lane Volibear, I swear it never looks good
I think a large part of top Voli looking bad is a lot of pros just flat build him wrong. Trinity force is kind of bad on him, honestly... His kit scales so well off of HP and CDR.. but lots of Pros build like Trinity into Deadmans on him, it's just a bad build. You deal less damage and are less tanky then if you build say Cleaver + IBG.
But in general, I think Volibear is just kind of a B tier champ after the nerfs. Thing is he's mostly picked because of a good lane vs Camille and a more early game power curve than say Renekton. Other choices would be like Shen which is perma banned, Maokai which I think has been under prioritized at world's, or Malphite which is a bit reliant on enemy being physical heavy.
On October 03 2020 20:58 iCanada wrote: I think a large part of top Voli looking bad is a lot of pros just flat build him wrong. Trinity force is kind of bad on him, honestly... His kit scales so well off of HP and CDR.. but lots of Pros build like Trinity into Deadmans on him, it's just a bad build. You deal less damage and are less tanky then if you build say Cleaver + IBG.
But in general, I think Volibear is just kind of a B tier champ after the nerfs. Thing is he's mostly picked because of a good lane vs Camille and a more early game power curve than say Renekton. Other choices would be like Shen which is perma banned, Maokai which I think has been under prioritized at world's, or Malphite which is a bit reliant on enemy being physical heavy.
yeah he goes even/slightly ahead vs Camille and then hard loses the rest of the game, I just think its not worth picking ever but what do I know lol
On October 03 2020 20:58 iCanada wrote: I think a large part of top Voli looking bad is a lot of pros just flat build him wrong. Trinity force is kind of bad on him, honestly... His kit scales so well off of HP and CDR.. but lots of Pros build like Trinity into Deadmans on him, it's just a bad build. You deal less damage and are less tanky then if you build say Cleaver + IBG.
But in general, I think Volibear is just kind of a B tier champ after the nerfs. Thing is he's mostly picked because of a good lane vs Camille and a more early game power curve than say Renekton. Other choices would be like Shen which is perma banned, Maokai which I think has been under prioritized at world's, or Malphite which is a bit reliant on enemy being physical heavy.
yeah he goes even/slightly ahead vs Camille and then hard loses the rest of the game, I just think its not worth picking ever but what do I know lol
Yeah, Voli is a safe lane pick, but not a safe scaling pick. Once Camille gets ahead, he becomes a liability because she runs over him in the side lane and team fights. I think he's OK when he plays vs Renekton,
It might be possible RGE contests JDG, no?
Finn is going to be destroyed by Zoom, I wouldn't be surprised if they straight up win via top gap. I'm optimistic after seeing how RGE played, they seem super hungry and full try hard mode, but JDG has few flaws they can exploit.
Why is it unsurprising that LGD vs GenG is the closest game so far, lol.
Lol I have a feeling LGD is going to totally fuck this group up, nice to finally see a close game, 5/5 liquibets so far! For some reason I picked TSM to win the last one idk what I was thinking lol. Also LCK 3-0 on day one I am happy
Dang, Selfmade's Eve is so scary. That pick onto DL just made TSM SO scared the whole game after. Also, DL built like trash. Why would you build Duskblade vs Eve instead of Edge of Night?
I think TSM respected Eve too much mid game, let Fnatic get a lead and the free Baron, then proceeded to respect her not enough near the end.
Also, like I said... Nidalee sucks into Eve. Bad first pick in the draft.
Other big thing that I think won Fnatic the game was just a huge vision advantage stemming from the level 1 and the follow-up kill level 3. Hyli nearly doubled Biofrosts vision score. And then Fnatic further abused that by committing way more gold into pinks.
Isn't vision score a bit misleading because you get more points from wards on the enemy side of the map, meaning the defending support will always fall behind due to warding their own jungle?
On October 03 2020 22:52 ghrur wrote: Dang, Selfmade's Eve is so scary. That pick onto DL just made TSM SO scared the whole game after. Also, DL built like trash. Why would you build Duskblade vs Eve instead of Edge of Night?
DL always builds like trash. Lol.
I also don't really like DL on Senna. He's always been kind of mediocre to bad at her. His worst winrate champ of all time Atleast he stopped building Berseker Greaves on her... So that's a plus. He also isn't 15 souls at 20 minutes anymore... But I think it's a huge waste of liftlift.
On October 03 2020 22:57 Sent. wrote: Isn't vision score a bit misleading because you get more points from wards on the enemy side of the map, meaning the defending support will always fall behind due to warding their own jungle?
It's a difference but it's not huge. It's like a 20% increase.
Big thing is just Ali was just behind and couldn't really contest vision alone the way Hyli was. Just all game TSM was walking into a lit up map with no vision. Just slightly behind, leads to them getting less than ideal fight starts and just being behind in rotational tempo.
I think fnatics vision game is part of what makes selfmade's Eve so gross. When you have vision control like that she's so much scarier. Compare that to say MAD, who lost the vision game every game... Much easier to pop off on her when you control vision then when you don't. Eve and Fiddlesticks are imo the best Champions in the game to learn how big an impact vision has in LoL. Honestly, if you want to get better vision control as any role I'd hard recommend playing 300 games on either champion. It's honestly the difference between being a useless wet noodle and being an omnipresent unstoppable hard carry on those Champions. Winning games on them is literally contingent on finding vision pockets.
On October 03 2020 22:48 Sent. wrote: Why did Bjerg tp back to base instead of recalling???
Guess that's what Mad Lions wanted to have when they were picking Evelynn in the play-ins
Selfmade's big dick energy
MAD made Eve look balanced, but RGE and FNC both destroyed with her, KDA of 9.00 and 8.00, UoL loss shouldn't count. Selfmade bought Banshees second and still one shot Doublelift, her ratio buffs were a tad extreme.
I kinda focused on Perkz this game, and man I wish I had not. His Ezrael Qs are painful to watch. I think G2 could be solidly ahead if he was a bit better.
I understand why G2 went in like that, as it seemed likely the push with elder was their only chance. But yeah Suning overforced, they had the game with the ocean soul if they played it slower. Though tbh its easy to say in hindsight, I also thought that last push would end it. The miscalculation was probably the Bard ult keeping the 2 towers alive so much longer.
On October 04 2020 19:04 AzAlexZ wrote: Holy Moly this game was SO POGGERS!!!!!! Suning what a domination of early game and G2 what a comeback from ocean soul deficit. EU and LCK 3-0
On October 04 2020 19:06 Redox wrote: I understand why G2 went in like that, as it seemed likely the push with elder was their only chance. But yeah Suning overforced, they had the game with the ocean soul if they played it slower. Though tbh its easy to say in hindsight, I also thought that last push would end it. The miscalculation was probably the Bard ult keeping the 2 towers alive so much longer.
I don't think SN could've won the game even with ocean soul at that point after aceing G2 if they played slow. They had to win with the push, or else they would die to TF BD the moment they tried to force a fight. The 10HP turret isn't going to stop a TF at all.
On October 04 2020 19:06 Redox wrote: I understand why G2 went in like that, as it seemed likely the push with elder was their only chance. But yeah Suning overforced, they had the game with the ocean soul if they played it slower. Though tbh its easy to say in hindsight, I also thought that last push would end it. The miscalculation was probably the Bard ult keeping the 2 towers alive so much longer.
I don't think SN could've won the game even with ocean soul at that point after aceing G2 if they played slow. They had to win with the push, or else they would die to TF BD the moment they tried to force a fight. The 10HP turret isn't going to stop a TF at all.
Yeah, G2 had triple TP with TF, Volibear, and Ezreal. They could've triple TP'd any point they saw SN try to leave the base and just end in like 5 seconds. Makes sense for SN to go for the end.
On October 04 2020 19:06 Redox wrote: I understand why G2 went in like that, as it seemed likely the push with elder was their only chance. But yeah Suning overforced, they had the game with the ocean soul if they played it slower. Though tbh its easy to say in hindsight, I also thought that last push would end it. The miscalculation was probably the Bard ult keeping the 2 towers alive so much longer.
I don't think SN could've won the game even with ocean soul at that point after aceing G2 if they played slow. They had to win with the push, or else they would die to TF BD the moment they tried to force a fight. The 10HP turret isn't going to stop a TF at all.
Yeah, watching the game I also felt that Ocean soul wasn't enough to win the game, it came down to team fight execution, and once TF had RFC and Ez got his ArPen, G2's comp could out execute. Caster's seemed to completely forget that Lee Sin becomes a dud past 30 minutes, Sofm went for tank support and relied on big plays with his ult, but those aren't going to happen easily vs the likes of G2. Syndra has trouble killing Ez and TF because she either gets gold carded or Bard/Voli jump her. G2 also had the better map pressure comp.
On October 04 2020 19:54 DarkCore wrote: It's a lot closer than I expected. Surprised that Heca managed to grab that dragon from a Graves 1 level up.
Can't tell if DWG is playing so safe because they think they can just win by out executing, or because they respect RGE.
Yeah, the Graves / Pantheon falling off a cliff in terms of scaling is pretty scary for DWG. Also, Meteos mentioned that the levels in terms of smites are pretty negligible given you can communicate to burst with your team. More surprised that Damwon didn't try to fight before the dragon was close enough for the 50/50.
Graves doesn't really fall off, no? I think late game Heca is scarier, but full damage Graves can 1vs1 ADCs easily.
RGE played well but too defensively, DWG ran around getting leads while waiting for that one single mistake by RGE to snowball completely out of control. It took 30 minutes but that Larssen catch ended the game.
Idk, I think Graves falls off somewhat because he's not that tanky late game and his range is too low. Agreed that RGE played that well. I think if Syndra doesn't get picked, they would've had a good chance to come back since Lulu maxed out, Pantheon was falling off, and RGE was continuing to scale pretty hard. DWG just too clean to win off of that.
Also, the jungle difference was insane. Canyon read Inspired like a book. He took all of Inspired's top jungle when he was going Red -> Wolves -> Raptors.
Its too bad PSG couldn't keep their subs from playins, I don't think it would change the group results but maybe it would at lest make their games a little more interesting.
Can't believe TSM actually thought they could run their Bjerg Zilean strat vs GenG, as if their coaching staff didn't watch LCS.
Everyone on TSM looked outclassed, GenG build big leads in mid and jungle, TSM got some nice kills but their comp just doesn't work vs a veteran team like GenG. CoreJJ gets to experience Ruler's Ezreal on the opposite side of the rift.
TSM's draft was hard garbage. 0 lane pressure so of course Lillia is going to just dance around in their junngle with impunity. Wouldn't have been as bad if they drafted some lane pressure and/or a better ADC for the comp, but they didn't.
Becaaaause, TSM's coaching staff is ass. They literally don't have a head coach, with Parth there as interim because he sucks so much ass at GMing that he couldn't find any coaches he like outside of one guy that they got outbid for during the offseason. They said they're trying a player driven thing like G2, but that's a fucking ass direction to go in when there isn't a history of success to allow there to be more leeway given. In the end it'll be used as an excuse to not blame anybody for the teams problems and this shit will just repeat next year.
Just finished the vods, small take aways from each game
Game 1: Broxah finished a game where his team got destroyed with 0 deaths
Game 2: Good game
Game 3: way to much talk about scaling in this thread, yes Damwon gets outscaled but they got enough out of the early game. Also the casters criticized Larssen for going void 2nd this game over dcap when Lulu had athenes and 2 melees had mercs meaning it was the highlight damage purchase against anyone but the adc.
Game 4: I think we can all agree PSG is basically a bronze player in diamond playing their decay games
Game 5: I agree with the draft kingdom posts.
Game 6: LGD is so weird, the play in teams look so bad except LGD who was bad vs play in teams. Maybe they are one of those teams that always plays at the level of their opponent, because this game didn’t feel like they were way better.
god that replay triggers me all over again. They may actually have won the fight if Boss and Ahahasik left the pit instead of trapping themselves and bursting the baron.
On October 05 2020 22:38 chipmonklord17 wrote: Deft's Draven build is one of Boris' best heists I've seen in a while
Boris plaguing Deft and DRX is not a surprise lol
I just don't understand what its supposed to do. Like I get when a team builds 2-3 Cleavers because it might be good on all of the champs building them, but I'd still consider that getting Boris'ed. But this build just doesn't accomplish anything. So you do no damage because you have tear, then you go the lethality item that gets its power from 1v1s? Why though? If you want lethality so badly just go ghost blade or edge of night for their passives, or skip the whole thing and go tear -> BT/IE, or for fucks sake skip the tear and lethality all together like a normal person on Draven
That was a fun game, agreed. The Noc pick was pretty smart, it came after DRX showed TF (the main counter) and then Quinn (she can't really split when Noc is missing, completely negates her power as a Renekton counter).
Idk how Draven lost the lane so hard, they didn't show much of the lane, except a few early engages which Draven somehow lost. Also Deft running OOM felt like he isn't too comfortable on the champ (has the mechanics, but Draven is so hard you only really see OTP play him). Then he went for that Draven build nobody really understands except that it sucks when behind.
Think if DRX wasn't baited into Quinn then the game would've looked better, but then TES probably wouldn't have drafted Noc mid, so the point is kind of moot.
On October 05 2020 22:38 chipmonklord17 wrote: Deft's Draven build is one of Boris' best heists I've seen in a while
Boris plaguing Deft and DRX is not a surprise lol
I just don't understand what its supposed to do. Like I get when a team builds 2-3 Cleavers because it might be good on all of the champs building them, but I'd still consider that getting Boris'ed. But this build just doesn't accomplish anything. So you do no damage because you have tear, then you go the lethality item that gets its power from 1v1s? Why though? If you want lethality so badly just go ghost blade or edge of night for their passives, or skip the whole thing and go tear -> BT/IE, or for fucks sake skip the tear and lethality all together like a normal person on Draven
I didn't watch the game so I dont know how it played out.
But the Muramana->(any)Lethality item is the highest DPS build in early to midgame for Draven. The "normal" build need at least 3 complete items before it's even to the Muramana build. The midgame build's items are significantly cheaper so you can pivot into a crit build after the two first items. Much stronger early game weaker lategame.
I suppose their gameplan was to win early or get an insurmountable lead in the midgame to let another lane carry the late. If he went tear first... Then yeah... If you cannot afford the Pickaxe on first back then just abandon the idea and go for regular build.
DRX lost because they didn't respect Senna range and slow. Too bad for that. Chovy showing some fancy feet though. Doran not being able to snowball his lane, was kind of sad to watch.
On October 05 2020 22:38 chipmonklord17 wrote: Deft's Draven build is one of Boris' best heists I've seen in a while
Boris plaguing Deft and DRX is not a surprise lol
I just don't understand what its supposed to do. Like I get when a team builds 2-3 Cleavers because it might be good on all of the champs building them, but I'd still consider that getting Boris'ed. But this build just doesn't accomplish anything. So you do no damage because you have tear, then you go the lethality item that gets its power from 1v1s? Why though? If you want lethality so badly just go ghost blade or edge of night for their passives, or skip the whole thing and go tear -> BT/IE, or for fucks sake skip the tear and lethality all together like a normal person on Draven
I didn't watch the game so I dont know how it played out.
But the Muramana->(any)Lethality item is the highest DPS build in early to midgame for Draven. The "normal" build need at least 3 complete items before it's even to the Muramana build. The midgame build's items are significantly cheaper so you can pivot into a crit build after the two first items. Much stronger early game weaker lategame.
I suppose their gameplan was to win early or get an insurmountable lead in the midgame to let another lane carry the late. If he went tear first... Then yeah... If you cannot afford the Pickaxe on first back then just abandon the idea and go for regular build.
But he was getting dunked on all game. Like sure go pickaxe first and see where it goes, but after you aren't winning bail out and just IE rush so you're useful. Taking what you're saying as absolute fact, he sacrificed the late game to win the early game...without winning the early game. And beyond that, the lethality item he chose was the 1v1 item whos name I can't remember. If it was ghost blade or edge of night for their passives I could maybe give it a pass, but it just felt like he was doing nothing the entire game. The build didn't match the champ identity or state of the game.
It absolutely matches the champion identity to build for lane what are you talking about? Not getting an advantage as Draven into Senna is a piloting problem, it’s not a item or champion problem
Before the tear/leathality build the most popular first item on Draven was BT unless you were snowballed out of your mind and could full complete IE on 2nd back. The tear into sanguine build is just a significantly higher dps variation on the same build.
This is how Draven has always been played and surely it’s partially why he’s rare in pro play, but this build is just flat out a buffed version of the traditional BT Rush Draven build . And if you think your Draven is good enough to punish a Senna pick in lane it’s perfectly fine, it was a piloting problem.
It’s definitely contentious, I know PSZ for example still does BT first. But the goal of the Bt build and the lethality build are the same, the lethality version is just significantly more gold efficient
I have seen many players on KR and super server streams build like Deft, it seems to be an Eastern thing. You can kind of see that when on your site too, although the Master+ sample sizes for Draven are very small tbh.
From his interview, Deft reveals he has back problems, and that probably affects his play. He also mentions that he practiced a lot of Draven, but not specifically vs Senna, and basically learned from the game that it's a bad matchup. Since he suggested the pick, he feels the loss was his fault and seemed pretty upset. He kind of hints at it, but this game was mainly lost in the draft phase, the Draven pick flopped and the surprise Noc pick nullified TF and Quinn. I still think they have a decent chance to beat TES in the next game, their rookies looked solid, Chovy can lane kingdom even someone like Knight, and Deft's mechanics were on point despite the poor performance.
On October 06 2020 17:35 Uldridge wrote: Kalista Sett seems like a fun bot combo by the way. Also, Impact seemed like he got blasted by Wunder? 60 cs in 20 minutes is not a small feat.
Intentional trade off for the 50 cs lead for Tactical during the mid game that is actually doing something for them now.
Nice job TL! It looks like they finally learned something from the spanking they've been receiving the last two games. Good early game, nice transition into mid, and contesting opponent jungle when they have tempo.
Has any team that wins a lv 1 fight lost a game so far? Not a fan of games snowballing out of control within the first 3 minutes of the game. Although this was mostly G2 forcing bad plays non stop, pretty poor play.
On October 06 2020 17:48 DarkCore wrote: Has any team that wins a lv 1 fight lost a game so far? Not a fan of games snowballing out of control within the first 3 minutes of the game. Although this was mostly G2 forcing bad plays non stop, pretty poor play.
Did SuNing have a lvl 1 advantage against G2? If not then you are right, lvl 1 advantage = 100% win
One thing this worlds really hammers home for me is how much I dislike Senna being an S tier ADC. Just a real slow safe ADC with heals and Shields.... Every game is just bot handshake farming, and then late game watching her teamfighting is just so meh. Almost no perceptible different in play between the best players in the world and random post players.
She's the Malzahar or Ornn of ADCs. Should be a niche A/ B tier carry, but instead she's more or less pick ban. Bleh.
That's why I hated when UoL drafted it tbh. Gadget had already played Ori bot before and they were against an MF with, who they could have dicked on hard with the Ori they already drafted if they flexed it bot. But instead they went Senna and got smashed.
Also shouldnt Rekkles be going lethality Senna here? Whose armor is he shredding?
On October 06 2020 22:46 DarkCore wrote: He's not good at the champ, and TSM doesn't feel comfortable playing proactively. Also that Renekton blew him up in like 1 second in the dragon pit.
LGD really needed to win this game, now we have a 3 way tie end of the first round.
Would the game have been much different if Bjerg picked Azir or Syndra (or even a weird pick like Sylas or Zoe) though?
On October 06 2020 18:51 AzAlexZ wrote: if TL didn't lose to Machi then they would have been neck and keck with G2 and Suning in this group, but oh well, let's go TL
It would be more probably for G2 to smack TL being 2-0 in a group than for TL to win with Suning, regardless of TL steamrolling their direct game.
On October 06 2020 22:46 DarkCore wrote: He's not good at the champ, and TSM doesn't feel comfortable playing proactively. Also that Renekton blew him up in like 1 second in the dragon pit.
LGD really needed to win this game, now we have a 3 way tie end of the first round.
Would the game have been much different if Bjerg picked Azir or Syndra (or even a weird pick like Sylas or Zoe) though?
Probably not, but LB is a pick where you have to be proactive and make picks, otherwise she's useless. Syndra and Azir can at least turtle up and scale. I saw him miss a few chains and he only got 2 kills, that's when you know an assassin failed their job.
On October 06 2020 21:27 chipmonklord17 wrote: That's why I hated when UoL drafted it tbh. Gadget had already played Ori bot before and they were against an MF with, who they could have dicked on hard with the Ori they already drafted if they flexed it bot. But instead they went Senna and got smashed.
Also shouldnt Rekkles be going lethality Senna here? Whose armor is he shredding?
There is no way Ori (the lowest base armor champ in the game, below kassadin with the ball unattached) dicks a lane bully adc
Furthermore uol vs fly was literally draft kingdom in favor of uol, it’s just PoE 1v9’d
Ori outranges Lucian once she gets the mana and levels in Q. She loses early but eventually can bully Lucian out of lane. Of course, if someone like Knight plays Lucian, that kind of assumption can probably be thrown out the window.
It’s considered Lucian favored because she needs Armguard and lost chapter to survive lane and often falls to far behind before that happens, unless Lucian goes tear build which is why I always say the tear build is so bad, you don’t spike during your advantage.
You don’t have to be Knight you just have to buy BF or cutlass first
On October 06 2020 21:27 chipmonklord17 wrote: That's why I hated when UoL drafted it tbh. Gadget had already played Ori bot before and they were against an MF with, who they could have dicked on hard with the Ori they already drafted if they flexed it bot. But instead they went Senna and got smashed.
Also shouldnt Rekkles be going lethality Senna here? Whose armor is he shredding?
There is no way Ori (the lowest base armor champ in the game, below kassadin with the ball unattached) dicks a lane bully adc
Furthermore uol vs fly was literally draft kingdom in favor of uol, it’s just PoE 1v9’d
I disagree about Ori vs MF, she's super immobile and would be susceptible to Ori damage on that fact alone. But I do agree PoE hard 1v9ed which is why I would have liked a different pick for Nomanz. Like they finally brought out their weird shit against top, but if they brought it out vs FQ or even DRX they could have had a chance
They already flexed Ori bot into Cait of all things, if stepping into range of Cait was possible MF should be possible too. Although the difference between the V3 adc and Turtle is probably high
On October 06 2020 22:46 DarkCore wrote: He's not good at the champ, and TSM doesn't feel comfortable playing proactively. Also that Renekton blew him up in like 1 second in the dragon pit.
LGD really needed to win this game, now we have a 3 way tie end of the first round.
Would the game have been much different if Bjerg picked Azir or Syndra (or even a weird pick like Sylas or Zoe) though?
The purpose of the LeBlanc was to pair with the Shen. LB does her splitpushy stuff and as long as Stand United is up the other team always has to send 2 people to deal with her.
On October 06 2020 22:46 DarkCore wrote: He's not good at the champ, and TSM doesn't feel comfortable playing proactively. Also that Renekton blew him up in like 1 second in the dragon pit.
LGD really needed to win this game, now we have a 3 way tie end of the first round.
Would the game have been much different if Bjerg picked Azir or Syndra (or even a weird pick like Sylas or Zoe) though?
The purpose of the LeBlanc was to pair with the Shen. LB does her splitpushy stuff and as long as Stand United is up the other team always has to send 2 people to deal with her.
but you could do that with other champs too. Sylas and Azir are both better than Leblanc there and they can both split push. If the goal was split push prowess then even Ekko and Fizz can also get the split push done.
On October 06 2020 22:46 DarkCore wrote: He's not good at the champ, and TSM doesn't feel comfortable playing proactively. Also that Renekton blew him up in like 1 second in the dragon pit.
LGD really needed to win this game, now we have a 3 way tie end of the first round.
Would the game have been much different if Bjerg picked Azir or Syndra (or even a weird pick like Sylas or Zoe) though?
The purpose of the LeBlanc was to pair with the Shen. LB does her splitpushy stuff and as long as Stand United is up the other team always has to send 2 people to deal with her.
but you could do that with other champs too. Sylas and Azir are both better than Leblanc there and they can both split push. If the goal was split push prowess then even Ekko and Fizz can also get the split push done.
Over the course of the year, Bjergsen is 1-1 on Sylas, 2-7 on Azir, 0-1 on Ekko, and he's never played Fizz. They're clearly champs either TSM doesn't want to play or, in the case of Azir, champs that haven't worked with the team.
Bjergsen is usually much better on LB than he was today.
DoinB actually gave some really interesting commentary on the LB. He said that LB is out of meta for a reason and thinks TSM just has a poor read on the meta. Basically, LB was picked to counter Ori, but LB can't oppress Ori anymore due to the jungle meta changing. Before, Ori needed to be fearful in lane due to a Lee Sin or a Reksai being in the jungle, and the jungle+mid could just come in and try to catch Ori even in lane. With Graves, though, it's very tough to catch Ori because Graves ganking power is so low, meaning it's harder for LB to get an advantage.
He also said TSM that just seems to be like a team who picks whatever they want to play whenever, without really thinking about the needs of the team comp. I pretty much agree, and think their P/Bs have just been incoherent throughout. They seem to tunnel too much on their recent champions. For example, I think vs the GenG team, given a twitch ban, Ori + Senna or Azir + Senna would've made sense and would've rounded out their comp a lot more than... Zilean + Senna.
Zilean Senna is crazy low damage for the first 20 minutes of the game, and then you're so far behind you don't actually get to scale. So it's no surprise they kind of lost every team fight with it, Rakan engages and then ???. Match history shows Ruler did more damage than the 3 TSM carries combined, 4 times the damage of Senna. Also DL did 0 damage to turrets that entire game and 200 damage to objectives (dragon, herald etc), almost surreal. Game was a stomp, but those numbers really drive home how lopsided it was, and imo more about draft than player skill.
Bjerg looked really bad on LB, everything looked so forced because he knew his team was losing hard and he needed to snowball. Post above got me interested in Bjerg's winrate, it looks like he's only had good success on TF, Syndra, Zilean and Zoe. Everyone has banned TF vs TSM so far, Syndra has been banned and picked by TSM, Zilean is troll pick, and Zoe was banned once by TSM themselves. His comfort champ pool is surprisingly easy to deal with, he hasn't had particular success with single game picks.
On October 07 2020 18:43 DarkCore wrote: Bjerg looked really bad on LB, everything looked so forced because he knew his team was losing hard and he needed to snowball. Post above got me interested in Bjerg's winrate, it looks like he's only had good success on TF, Syndra, Zilean and Zoe. Everyone has banned TF vs TSM so far, Syndra has been banned and picked by TSM, Zilean is troll pick, and Zoe was banned once by TSM themselves. His comfort champ pool is surprisingly easy to deal with, he hasn't had particular success with single game picks.
TBF if whole team is underperforming, it's hard to see him shining and Bjergsen is not the player that can carry whole team on his back like Stixxay did few years back during MSI. On international stage they are very fragile and apparently Bjergsen is not it any more durable.
They're not underperforming. They're playing exactly like they have always been. Dillydallying in the midgame will just get you completely destroyed. Most of TSM wins in LCS is because of a miracle teamfight win. They have no sense of macro. It's extremely frustrating to watch. But I guess you deserve to win if you can hold off another team that can't macro for shit and get strong enough to possibly win a fight, right?
TL looked markedly proactive in the games they won. When they lost they looked abysmally passive.
Think he meant underperforming more in the context that they're getting blasted by every opposing lineup. So Bjerg has to step up, because he seems to be the only player on his team who can hold a candle to the competition (not really though, the mid laners in his group are pretty tame, imagine if he had to play vs Caps/Knight/Yagao/Chovy/Showmaker).
TL looked proactive vs play in teams, that's not really a good indicator. G2 botched the level 1 because mad disrespect, still tried to dictate the game, and were run over because they had neither a gold lead, tempo lead and poor scaling.
I know, but at least Broxah got in the face of people. If you play Lee Sin and are invisible for the entirety of the game, there must be something going on. He feels enabled on Graves though, I like him on the champ.
As for TSM, Bjergsen has never, ever showed up for international competition. It's partly because of his inactivity they're losing I think. He reminds me of Froggen, where everyone always said he was a beast, but then almost never pops off. Is it a team thing, or is just an extremely riskaverse thing in high stakes situations? I can't really tell, but as a spectator it doesn't really come off as a positive performance, no matter how much cs you're able to be ahead of your opponent.
TSM also infuriatingly don't invest in him at all. Bjergsen has the lowest counter pick % in the entire world.
I'm incredibly frustrated with TSM, have been all year, and it isn't even because of the in game product(NA teams are going to be bad, period, time to move on) but because the front office has 0 fucking clue what they're doing and Regi isn't making any changes.
On October 07 2020 18:43 DarkCore wrote: Zilean Senna is crazy low damage for the first 20 minutes of the game, and then you're so far behind you don't actually get to scale. So it's no surprise they kind of lost every team fight with it, Rakan engages and then ???. Match history shows Ruler did more damage than the 3 TSM carries combined, 4 times the damage of Senna. Also DL did 0 damage to turrets that entire game and 200 damage to objectives (dragon, herald etc), almost surreal. Game was a stomp, but those numbers really drive home how lopsided it was, and imo more about draft than player skill.
Bjerg looked really bad on LB, everything looked so forced because he knew his team was losing hard and he needed to snowball. Post above got me interested in Bjerg's winrate, it looks like he's only had good success on TF, Syndra, Zilean and Zoe. Everyone has banned TF vs TSM so far, Syndra has been banned and picked by TSM, Zilean is troll pick, and Zoe was banned once by TSM themselves. His comfort champ pool is surprisingly easy to deal with, he hasn't had particular success with single game picks.
Funnily enough, Syndra was open in the LB game for Bjerg vs LGD. LGD and TSM have VERY similar playstyles and for some reason, TSM must've thought that LGD do it better than TSM so they wanted early game snowball of LB?
That first match loss vs Machi seems to really be screwing TL, they would've been 2-2 if not for that game and they could STILL end up first due to their first win vs G2 and also if they win vs Suning and Machi
On October 08 2020 19:39 AzAlexZ wrote: That first match loss vs Machi seems to really be screwing TL, they would've been 2-2 if not for that game and they could STILL end up first due to their first win vs G2 and also if they win vs Suning and Machi
It's almost like if they were a better team, they'd get out of groups... I have no pity for TL here. They griefed pick/bans vs Suning, and I think they're the worst team in the group. They don't deserve to advance, let alone be first lol.
Oh, TL with a nice pick/ban. I think they out-drafted Suning here. Let's see if they can convert.
On October 08 2020 20:16 Gahlo wrote: Still absolutely bizarre to me that TSM let Tactical go in the offseason and went after Kobbe.
Kobbe was a good player, then he went to NA. Wouldn't be surprised if he comes back to EU now and emulates his previous success. Sadly, top EU teams aren't lacking in ADCs.
Really feels like TL have realized that they this is their last chance, so they have to play riskier and proactive. They look so much better than TSM and FLY, despite being 3rd seed lol.
Congrats TL, they get the tiebreaker now if they beat Machi and G2 beats SN. Wouldn't be surprised if SN is pretty tilted right now, they had an easy way out of groups but this lost pretty much nullified everything.
On September 30 2020 22:38 chipmonklord17 wrote: I don't know, at this point I think Suning is the biggest question mark of that group. G2 deserves the benefit of the doubt in my opinion. I think the most likely scenario is G2/Suning in 1st/2nd in some order. I see TL's angle as taking an upset on G2 and splitting with Suning so the standings end G2 5-1 TL 4-2 Suning 3-3 Machi 0-6
or vice versa with Suning being the 5-1 and G2 being the 3-3 but even that seems like a big stretch for TL, save for a Suning collapse.
Well I didn't get it exactly I'd like to point out how stupid close to correct I got as the potential TL angle out
I still believe that SN will beat TL in the tiebreaker, I just want TL to at least be given a chance to prove themselves again. I wouldn't be surprised if SN tilts hard if they lose to G2.
Oh lol, Bin is going Ignite TP, that's some insane bm. Edit: Also Omnistone, wtf I've never seen this before.
I completely agree, I still expect G2/Suning 1st/2nd, but that was my initial "this is TL's only shot" hypothetical and it was almost spot on from their performance perspective. Its their first game from Machi that fucks everything up.
I agree this Camille is super weird, obviously it wasn't a mistake given Grasp and Omnistone aren't in the same tree so it was a purposeful decision
On October 08 2020 21:58 DarkCore wrote: I still believe that SN will beat TL in the tiebreaker, I just want TL to at least be given a chance to prove themselves again. I wouldn't be surprised if SN tilts hard if they lose to G2.
Oh lol, Bin is going Ignite TP, that's some insane bm. Edit: Also Omnistone, wtf I've never seen this before.
Grasp is only worth it in matchups where you get to actually proc it without getting slaughtered in the early game. Camille can use basically every rune so I think it was a fairly clever choice.
On October 08 2020 20:59 AdsMoFro wrote: Don't do that...don't give me hope.
Great draft from TL for once :D
Yep, I expected nothing from TL and still I'm disappointed. Losing to Machi in G1 fucked them. Went 1-1 with both SN/G2 which is as good as can be expected. Can't lose to the team everyone else 2-0'd.
I completely agree, that's why I assume it will happen. Because Fnatic will blast group C and their reward will be the one opponent they just can't beat
Still don't know what to think about G2. Sometimes they look like they still have the potential to be a top 3 team, but they might as well get 3:0d in the quarters without putting up a fight.
Can't wait to watch group C, good thing it's on Saturday so I'll get to watch it live.
Angel actually impressed me quite a bit in this group, he's probably the least talked about Suning player but aside from a couple mistakes in the first game vs G2 I thought he played extremely well. I guess playing against players like Rookie and Knight makes you look worse than you are lol
On October 09 2020 03:54 Sent. wrote: Still don't know what to think about G2. Sometimes they look like they still have the potential to be a top 3 team, but they might as well get 3:0d in the quarters without putting up a fight.
Can't wait to watch group C, good thing it's on Saturday so I'll get to watch it live.
Right, but this year there are really big standouts like DWG and TES. I don't think G2 could beat JDG in this state either, unless they brought their A+ game for 5 games.
On October 09 2020 18:42 iCanada wrote: Larssen's Ori build is troll as hell. Imagine he has like Deathcap+Ludens, he legit oneshots all of JDG except the Sett.
Yeah that was so dumb, big throw ffs. Hans was outscaled by the 25 minute mark, he doesn't do damage even with Ardent.
Shame for RGE, I think they'd have had a chance in pretty much any other group. Imo if they replace Finn with one of the better top laners in LEC they would be really scary. Larssen and Hans are really good, Inspired and Vander can have good games as well.
That JDG draft is IMO the worst draft of the entire Worlds tournament so far.
Literally I can't see JDG's win condition. They have three losing lanes, a losing jungle matchup, no engage, no functional CC (Galio has no way into a fight and no R target), no peel, no disengage, less range...
Only real win condition JDG has is like... Zoom hard smurfing? Idk, maybe it makes sense if you switch out Graves for like Nocturne or Gragas, or Karma is like Alistar / Leona, or Zoom is on like Camille / Jax.
On October 09 2020 20:36 iCanada wrote: That JDG draft is IMO the worst draft of the entire Worlds tournament so far.
Literally I can't see JDG's win condition. They have three losing lanes, a losing jungle matchup, no engage, no functional CC (Galio has no way into a fight and no R target), no peel, no disengage, less range...
Only real win condition JDG has is like... Zoom hard smurfing? Idk, maybe it makes sense if you switch out Graves for like Nocturne or Gragas, or Karma is like Alistar / Leona, or Zoom is on like Camille / Jax.
I don't understand.
The 3 AD vs Malphite comp against TL was pre bad too.
On October 09 2020 21:20 chipmonklord17 wrote: Definitely thought this group was going to be a pick 'em freebie, feels bad man
yeah Rogue turned out to be worse than I expected, not sure how much to take away from their games after they got eliminated by JDG but they looked pretty bad.
I think RGE tilted a lot from week 1 to 2, every loss broke them further. Meanwhile PSG really tried their best today, they knew they had no chance after the DWG game, but they still tried to make their fans proud with 2 great wins.
Awful year for EU when compared to the previous two years. Even if FNC get out nobody truly believes they or G2 will make it through their quarter final series.
On October 09 2020 21:31 DarkCore wrote: I think RGE tilted a lot from week 1 to 2, every loss broke them further. Meanwhile PSG really tried their best today, they knew they had no chance after the DWG game, but they still tried to make their fans proud with 2 great wins.
Awful year for EU when compared to the previous two years. Even if FNC get out nobody truly believes they or G2 will make it through their quarter final series.
Not really surprising. EU was on borrowed time until Korea got its shit together again and was never a serious threat to China anyway.
That baron play is 50/50, it depends on what makes the most out of their advantages. DWG just grabbed the 3rd dragon which is super important for them, JDG got 2 towers plus a pick.
This game is pretty close, all comes down to execution. Think the point where Sett bullies Camille is over though.
See, this is what I mean about how hard it is for JDG to facecheck. They JDG isn't first on an objective they dont really have the tools to get in without taking big risks.
Also showcases how high Camille's carry potential is right now.
Great game. I think JDG's win comes largely from the draft and good game planning to set Zoom ahead, DWG seems like the better team for sure imo. Game was "over" in terms of realistic win conditions for like 20 minutes, and DWG won several teamfights by outplaying and found fairly good picks.
JDG seems kinda shaky to me, their drafting has been very spotty. But when draft goes well I think they can be dangerous. Seem like a bit of a coinflip team, similiar to G2 Caps vs Craps.
JDG has a weakness where they lose their first game vs opponents, but then ramp up during the series. Since this was all Bo1 we didn't get to see that, unless you kind of treat their 2 games vs DWG as an extended series. Today JDG had a big lead early in the game and had to fight so hard to stop DWG from swinging it around, don't think the same would happen if reversed.
Worlds this year has had quite a few spotty drafts from supposed top teams, agreed.
I'd like to eat crow on PSG... I was quite outspoken that they didn't belong in the group stage and it was unfair that they used smurfs in the play-ins...
With River and Tanks play today, think its fair to say they belong to be here.
I still don't think they would have gotten to the group stage if they didn't have the PCS all star roster. I don't think UoL loses the tiebreaker if they ever even get to that point, and PSG vs SuperMassive bo5 could have gone either way. Not that that means they don't "belong" per say, but more of the worlds format being kinda shitty and Supermassive would have "belonged" too.
I think if anything the do they belong or not argument comes more from the fact that they were allowed to use what is effectively an all star roster to make it into groups in the first place, not whether or not their actual roster performed in the group stage itself. I don't know what Riot could have done that wouldn't have fucked up the tournament format worse than Corona already has, but it still feels kind of fucked up that PSG could have done that in the first place. Could an all star roster of TCL players make it too? Would the best 5 players in the OPL have made it against LGD? I don't know, but I do feel weird about the fact that we got to see PCS do that
After reflecting a bit on it, honestly I think that the LoL worlds formatting kind of really sucks. Notably, it makes "getting out of groups" a huge feat despite getting out of groups being a horribly unfair metric. Some teams get out of groups going 2-4, some get out of groups going 3-3, and some fail to make it out of groups going 4-2; and thats ignoring the random group draws that make some groups insanely hard and some groups laughably easy. You also have teams that preform well and show promise being eliminated before you even see them play in games that aren't BO1's.
I think they should ditch the playins entirely and just expand the size of group stage groups, and then reduce the number of groups that exist. You have always had 22 to 24 teams making worlds including playin's; just run three groups of 8 and run a single round robin. You're playing the same number of "play-in / group" games for every team, and then you have a more fair initial seeding of teams from rank 1 to rank 24 based on wins, then you just flat out cut all the teams ranked 17-24, and have a BO5 Round of 16 (could be BO3 if Riot doesn't want to add too many games) with Seed 1 vs Seed 16, Seed 2 vs Seed 15, etc. This would level the playing field in terms of groups of life / groups of death, provide a better comparative strength barometer for all regions, and eliminate things like 2017 Fnatic making it out of groups at 2-4 (vs Longzhu, Immortals & GIGABYTE Marines, LUL) while G2 is eliminated in groups despite going 4-2 (vs RNG, Samsung Galaxy, and Flashwolves?). In no world does that make sense; G2 clearly preformed better than Fnatic vs better competition, yet Fnatic make it out and G2 goes home? Then obviously Fnatic gets horrifically 3-0'd by RNG with an average game time of 21 minutes despite G2 going 1-1 with RNG and taking the winner of the entire tournament SSG to 35 minutes twice... It's absurd.
The other big plus, imo is that almost every team gets a chance to play a BO5 or BO3.
As someone that's only been watching worlds and the occasional MSI for the past several years without paying any attention to League inbetween those, I gotta ask, where did the clown fiestas go? It seems in every single match the first team to get a decent gold advantage just wins no contest.
It’s because of balance changes to jungle, the jungler who is ahead on this patch(most of this season) can lock out the behind jungler from ever getting back into the game and it creates insane pressure on all 3 lanes when your jungler basically doesn’t exist and you’re opponent knows it.
On October 10 2020 00:58 Dan HH wrote: As someone that's only been watching worlds and the occasional MSI for the past several years without paying any attention to League inbetween those, I gotta ask, where did the clown fiestas go? It seems in every single match the first team to get a decent gold advantage just wins no contest.
The game has become riduculously snowbally. Turret plates, big first blood gold combined with Rift Herald can lead to 2-5k gold in 10-15 minutes. This has incentivized more proactive playmaking early on, even if it is risky. And yeah, tbh this Worlds a lot of games have been decided in the first 5 minutes, or at least one team starts off with a strong lead. Jungle meta is strong farming champs who can clear so fast they have ample time to gank, apply lane pressure or counter jungle. If one jungler starts off poorly, they get counter jungled to death and become a non factor. Meanwhile Nidalee/Graves/Lillia are 2 levels up, 50 cs ahead by min 15, take every objective and also shove waves.
The top teams are good enough to close a game when they get that lead. Even DWG, who crushed everyone in their group, lost a game because JDG won the early skirmishes (don't get me wrong, JDG is very good and DWG attempted to get back into the game, but games become very lopsided from just one or two fights).
On October 10 2020 00:17 iCanada wrote: After reflecting a bit on it, honestly I think that the LoL worlds formatting kind of really sucks. Notably, it makes "getting out of groups" a huge feat despite getting out of groups being a horribly unfair metric. Some teams get out of groups going 2-4, some get out of groups going 3-3, and some fail to make it out of groups going 4-2; and thats ignoring the random group draws that make some groups insanely hard and some groups laughably easy. You also have teams that preform well and show promise being eliminated before you even see them play in games that aren't BO1's.
I think they should ditch the playins entirely and just expand the size of group stage groups, and then reduce the number of groups that exist. You have always had 22 to 24 teams making worlds including playin's; just run three groups of 8 and run a single round robin. You're playing the same number of "play-in / group" games for every team, and then you have a more fair initial seeding of teams from rank 1 to rank 24 based on wins, then you just flat out cut all the teams ranked 17-24, and have a BO5 Round of 16 (could be BO3 if Riot doesn't want to add too many games) with Seed 1 vs Seed 16, Seed 2 vs Seed 15, etc. This would level the playing field in terms of groups of life / groups of death, provide a better comparative strength barometer for all regions, and eliminate things like 2017 Fnatic making it out of groups at 2-4 (vs Longzhu, Immortals & GIGABYTE Marines, LUL) while G2 is eliminated in groups despite going 4-2 (vs RNG, Samsung Galaxy, and Flashwolves?). In no world does that make sense; G2 clearly preformed better than Fnatic vs better competition, yet Fnatic make it out and G2 goes home? Then obviously Fnatic gets horrifically 3-0'd by RNG with an average game time of 21 minutes despite G2 going 1-1 with RNG and taking the winner of the entire tournament SSG to 35 minutes twice... It's absurd.
The other big plus, imo is that almost every team gets a chance to play a BO5 or BO3.
oh yeah worlds format has always been shit, like today we had what 3 games that actually meant something and we easily could have had less if PSG hadn't beaten JDG. I so wish instead of double round robin bo1 we had GSL style groups with every match being a bo3 or whatever, maybe even a bo5 for the deciding match. The seeding system is also partially to blame but without more international play I don't see any better way to really do pre-tournament seeding . Unfortunately I don't see any incentive for Riot to change it.
That third drake fight. EVERY single person except selfmade is on broken blade. Bjerg has flash, bio has flash. If either of them zone out selfmade, it's impossible for him to steal it.
They're so fucking scared of making mistakes it's unreal.
TSM always does this internationally. I'm tired of them representing the LCS, to be frank. They always give up the whole map then eventually just lose. Have been doing it for like half a decade now.
But you know, this is also the team that has said frankly that they only wanted to win LCS... And they only wanted to win LCS in the summer because the spring split doesn't mean anything
Atleast TL and FLY tried to play the game... How you pick an aggressive comp and proceed to play a passive reactive style is beyond me. If you're going to play that way you should be picking shit like Cass / Kass / Jax / Aphelios. Easiest group and worst performance. Bleh.
On October 10 2020 17:55 starkiller123 wrote: even as a certified TSM hater I almost feel bad for them...almost. If only their reddit fans weren't so irritating
The logic of not liking a team because of their fans sounds fuking retarded to me. TSM fans being toxic has nothing to do with the team themselves. Hate the fans not the team please holy shit fuk outta here with this bullshit logic.
BrokenBlade is the only one on TSM with balls.... 3 players with an Ashe close and her ult ready vs a no mana Orianna and Jhin, what to do? Fleeeeeeeeeee.
Cant imagine how frustrating playing on this team must be for BB.
On October 10 2020 21:23 Jek wrote: BrokenBlade is the only one on TSM with balls.... 3 players with an Ashe close and her ult ready vs a no mana Orianna and Jhin, what to do? Fleeeeeeeeeee.
Cant imagine how frustrating playing on this team must be for BB.
Well, I'm pretty sure Spica wanted to give up on life after that 5-man Lilia ult into 0 follow-up happened.
Definitely didn't see Lulu coming, although this is super interesting because I've been thinking about Fnatic's World's win condition. I could see Fnatic pulling a Samsung Galaxy and putting Nemesis on things like Lulu (or Malz in the Samsung case) and neutralize all of the better mid lanes in the tournament for selfmade to pop off on everyone
On October 10 2020 23:12 AzAlexZ wrote: idk whether I should be more impressed or baffled that LGD had a better record in regular group stage compared to Play-ins group stage
On October 10 2020 17:55 starkiller123 wrote: even as a certified TSM hater I almost feel bad for them...almost. If only their reddit fans weren't so irritating
The logic of not liking a team because of their fans sounds fuking retarded to me. TSM fans being toxic has nothing to do with the team themselves. Hate the fans not the team please holy shit fuk outta here with this bullshit logic.
Not even a TSM fan just had to say this
well I've never liked any of their players either, plus when I started watching league they were always the favorites (at least in NA lol) and fuck cheering for the favorites
So I'm in the camp of everyone being excited we don't get G2/FNC in quarters, but would like to bring to your attention the fact that JDG/TES will more than likely be a viable quarter final match up and no one should want that to happen.
Also just watched the Spica Lillia clip, that physically hurt my soul as a fellow Lillia player
I haven’t looked at Reddit, just finished the vods but if TSM fans blame Spica after he got giga Greifed by his team on at least 3 occasions, but specifically the baron “steal” by gen g.
Then I approve of hating the team because of their fans
2 top teams meeting in quarter finals is sadly a possibility with a group stage + bracket format. A similar situation happened in 2018 when iG played KT in quarters for a very close series, and then stomped G2 and FNC afterwards.
Tbh two of JDG/DWG/TES are going to meet before the finals anyway so it doesn't matter too much if it's quarters or semis. Unless one of them gets eliminated unexpectedly...
Is the Spica clip the 5 man sleep one? His team really let him down there, along with the baron throw.
Went to sleep after the first TSM game... Jesus that 5 man Lillia sleep is the most tilting thing I've ever seen. Bjerg and DL with flash and full health bars... Literally one Lucian Q kills Ori + Ornn...
That's the most free ace I've ever seen. Microcosm of TSM at world's for a long time though... Scared to play the game.
On October 10 2020 17:55 starkiller123 wrote: even as a certified TSM hater I almost feel bad for them...almost. If only their reddit fans weren't so irritating
The logic of not liking a team because of their fans sounds fuking retarded to me. TSM fans being toxic has nothing to do with the team themselves. Hate the fans not the team please holy shit fuk outta here with this bullshit logic.
Not even a TSM fan just had to say this
well I've never liked any of their players either, plus when I started watching league they were always the favorites (at least in NA lol) and fuck cheering for the favorites
what's your stance on this for cheering for people in Starcraft 2?
That one fight where they initiated on the Pantheon was actually very wel fought by FLY. If they weren't 7k down the hole, they would've probably won that. But, they weren't, lol
Lol, I had that game running in the background and didn't even realize FLY was winning. That is pretty fun ngl, none of the top teams made it out of groups unscathed.
This is huge for DRX, they could clinch first without a tiebreaker now.
Kassadin being only 30 cs down after getting bullied so hard in lane is a little surprising. Guess he was very greedy and kept trading his lives for a few minions.
As much as a vehemently hate the worlds format and think it needs an overhaul, this is the first year in a long time where I feel like there's no 3rd/4th seed teams that "belong" in the top 8.
On October 11 2020 23:00 chipmonklord17 wrote: As much as a vehemently hate the worlds format and think it needs an overhaul, this is the first year in a long time where I feel like there's no 3rd/4th seed teams that "belong" in the top 8.
Variance is an important part of any team game though. If only the best on paper would win it would be super boring. For example the upsets are the main reason playins were fun this time. And the lack of upsets made the second half of groups rather dull.
On October 11 2020 23:00 chipmonklord17 wrote: As much as a vehemently hate the worlds format and think it needs an overhaul, this is the first year in a long time where I feel like there's no 3rd/4th seed teams that "belong" in the top 8.
Variance is an important part of any team game though. If only the best on paper would win it would be super boring. For example the upsets are the main reason playins were fun this time. And the lack of upsets made the second half of groups rather dull.
I completely agree. My only point was that most years theres at least one third place team that should actually be in the top 8 but the format fucks them. This year wasn't the case.
Also fucking rip fnatic. Also Damwon not making the finals with that bracket would be embarrassing
China and Korea have a strong chance to win the tournament without having their teams eliminated by teams from other regions. Not that it would mean much, but I bet casters will give it a lot of attention because of how easy it will be to fill time with this topic.
DWG vs G2 might actually be closer than we expect. DoinB was saying how EU seems to have an edge vs KR but weak versus CN. I just hope for a TES vs DWG finals or a competitive TES vs G2 finals instead of TES rolling over G2 3-0.
Also, I think SN vs TES will be close too given the form of the players right now.
I can see G2 beating GenG to a pulp, but DWG is a whole different caliber. G2 have had many messy games, and they did poorly vs SN. G2 really shines in series, but so does DWG.
I've been trying to understand your sentence several times, but I just can't, for the life of me, comprehend it. It feels like I'm approximating some understanding of it, but it breaks my mind every single time I reread the middle of it.
Thank you for saving me the time trying to figure out what he said, looks like autocorrect destroyed that sentence.
TES > FNC SN > JDG GEN < G2 DWG > DRX
TES > JDG DWG > G2
TES > DWG
Close to what was posted above, but imo JDG is better in long matches. SN has some prickly weaknesses (failure to close out games, not the best calls), and they are an opponent that JDG have played before, so they will play confidently. If TES or JDG don't win their series, I would be very surprised.
At that speed, I think the bigger factor is muscle memory. I have seen a GM Irelia on ARAM who jumped 5 minions in about 1 second, and Flash ulted 3 people in 1 second too. Nobody could react fast enough to stop her, I was happy I hit 50% of my Ez Qs on her. Bin was waiting for the misstep, and the rest was mindless mechanics. Either that or his brain runs twice as fast as mine.
Also super low ping and low input lag on monitor and keyboard.
His brain (reflexes) probably runs quite a bit faster than the average person (or even the amateur for fun gamer). I'd be quite interested in seeing a study which tries to tie genetics to the physiological aspect of reflexes/reaction speed.
Key words: nerve conductance/cerebellum processing/muscle precision (because correctly pointing your cursor at the right spot in very short time intervals is also very relevant)
Just like how people who are born stronger/faster/smarter than others, I'm convinced that certain signal processing mechanics are favored for certain people over others, even if they tend to be in the millisecond range of differences. So, being a pro-gamer might just mean you've got a combination of transcending reflexes and transcending muscle precision.
Edit: Of course there could be a discussion about the actual strategic insights (planning in space and time), in fight reaction and even knowing when fights 1v1s/1v2s/.../5v5s are favourable at certain points in time. But this elevates a good pro-gamer to a great pro-gamer imo. Think of what a legacy a Hai fusion with peak Faker/Uzi would have.
On October 13 2020 01:39 Uldridge wrote: His brain (reflexes) probably runs quite a bit faster than the average person (or even the amateur for fun gamer). I'd be quite interested in seeing a study which tries to tie genetics to the physiological aspect of reflexes/reaction speed.
Key words: nerve conductance/cerebellum processing/muscle precision (because correctly pointing your cursor at the right spot in very short time intervals is also very relevant)
Just like how people who are born stronger/faster/smarter than others, I'm convinced that certain signal processing mechanics are favored for certain people over others, even if they tend to be in the millisecond range of differences. So, being a pro-gamer might just mean you've got a combination of transcending reflexes and transcending muscle precision.
Edit: Of course there could be a discussion about the actual strategic insights (planning in space and time), in fight reaction and even knowing when fights 1v1s/1v2s/.../5v5s are favourable at certain points in time. But this elevates a good pro-gamer to a great pro-gamer imo. Think of what a legacy a Hai fusion with peak Faker/Uzi would have.
If I remember correctly there was a study years ago that showed that top StarCraft pros had visual and cognitive reaction speeds about 3-4 times faster than the average person. They basically had the same traits as combat pilots.
I hope we get some real banger 5 game series in quarters, I am mostly looking at the all lpl quarter and the G2 GenG one but hopefully the other two are at least somewhat competitive
If DRX doesn't win a single game, I think Deft will have a mental breakdown, and good chance the team will break apart (there's gotta be 10 offers from LPL for Chovy).
Sort of anticipated this result, kinda disappointed that I was right and it was a 3-0 (really wanted 4 games). But if DWG not being tested means they win Worlds then I'm fine with that, pick 'ems ain't lying (yet)
I'm actually quite sad that we have 2 intraregional quarter final matches. This reduces the intrigue quite a bit for me. And if none of Europe get out, we have boring stuff all the way up to the finals, right? This means potentially 4/7 matches are repeats of things we have seen already.. thats not a good ratio.
I mean, at least EU managed to still make 2 playoff spots. G2 had some shaky games albeit an easier group, and a good number of people thought it was possible FNC wouldn't make it out of such a tight group (before we watched TSM implode).
Anyone who watched LPL, LCK, LEC kind of knew they don't have a realistic chance vs DWG/TES/JDG. At least G2 seems evenly matched vs GenG so we might get one team through, but that's just a lucky draw.
Im carefully optimistc for G2 and FNC. All I hope is they deliver good games, but FNC look damn strong. I dont have a good gauge on G2 yet, because of their shakiness like you said.
With the priority of TF and the failure of Galio to really match it... I'm surprised Spartan hasn't seen any play mid seeing how he shits all over TF. Lillia or Nidalee plus Pantheon is kind of the most terrifying mid jungle duo I can imagine.
On October 16 2020 21:37 chipmonklord17 wrote: Think this is a perfect Liandries GP game given Galio is the only magic damage on Suning
I like the crit build here. The JDG comp aside from Volibear is so squishy a single barrel can win the game. SN would mostly straight up have ended the game if Bin didn't mess up his combo when JDG were clumped up together on the raptors when they were chasing them after the inhib take.
On October 16 2020 21:37 chipmonklord17 wrote: Think this is a perfect Liandries GP game given Galio is the only magic damage on Suning
I like the crit build here. The JDG comp aside from Volibear is so squishy a single barrel can win the game. SN would mostly straight up have ended the game if Bin didn't mess up his combo when JDG were clumped up together on the raptors when they were chasing them after the inhib take.
I guess in this game state it wouldn't have mattered either way and the crit build is probably better while that far ahead. I think if this game had played out "normally" (aka no level 1 sheen) it would have been a good Liandries game
Be interesting to see how Zoom's mental rebounds next game. He was looking kind he wanted to go next like 5 minutes in and he kinda just got bullied for another 30 minutes.
Honestly I'm surprised we didn't see JDG just lane swap it after seeing Bin got both of those kills. Idk, I know you lose the tower first, but I think that's favorable to having GP with 10 CS/M vs a 3 CS/M Volibear.
I mean, the game was over for him from minute 1 onwards, not tilting would be crazy mental strength. I'd rather he vents out this game and comes back next game, even 100% tryhard Zoom wasn't going to win this.
Oh yeah, 100% he was super fucked. But he definitely kind of ran it down a couple times starting with dying to the five after the rift herald where he watched four players walk over wards to dive him and he just... Died instead of leaving. Then that Flash ult solo to dive past three players onto a Bard with flash and ult...
I still would like to see the Pantheon flexed against TF. If TF continues to be first pick / ban priority, I almost think it's hard to not pick it.
I think the biggest difference was Haunfeng vs Loken. Zoom outplayed Bin for the most part, level 1 sheen aside. Mid seemed pretty coinflip and jungle was more or less mid prio snowballed.
But Huanfeng / SwordArt won lane every game and seemed like a much bigger threat while teamfighting. Kind of not close.
Agreed, Loken looked good in teamfights but they did lose lane. Zoom destroyed Bin 3 games, and the GP Sheen one wasn't his fault.
JDG was pretty underwhelming this tournament. I always thought it was because they were off to a slow start, but they didn't show up today either (meanwhile SN looked better every day).
Knight has to be the frontrunner for the Dade award after that first game.
At one point he's got a 2k gold lead over the rest of the game and still couldn't really create anything. I guess the one thing that helps his case is that honestly I think Fnatic has the best warding of every team at this tournament. It's a large part of the reason it's hard to find picks on say a Zoe and why (imo) Self Made Eve hits a little different.
To be fair, I think I saw Zoe hit just one bubble on Senna and Kindred the entire game, and it was because FNC seemed to always be prepared for it. Really great awareness by FNC.
The big problem was that JL was getting caught out so much. I think it's the 31 minute mark where you see TES ping the brush where Hyli is like crazy, but FNC still engaged and JL is suddenly standing between a Rakan and 4 people. TES was always on the defensive, which means that Zoe can't go fishing for aggressive bubbles, and every ult is risky because there's a Singed Rakan running at you, with a Galio and Senna ult close behind.
That's what I mean though. You can't dodge Zoe without vision, they just always had vision.
But still, at a certain point, when you have all the gold and get out roamed for plates in a matchup with priority and you pick up all the kills... You need to be able to step up and make a play. Especially when you have sorc shoes + spellbinder + upgraded ludens hella early. He more or less could have one shot anyone and he doesn't really land anything.
He was set up to carry, and just didn't. For supposedly the best player in the world... Idk, you have to move the needle more than that.
Man, Rekkles Hyli are dumpserting their lane again.
The gold lead that TES has is too small right now, they get outscaled pretty hard by Orrn/Kindred/Orianna. And just as I write that sentence, FNC kills Karsa and gets the second drake.
Nah, it's almost too late now for a GP barrel to make a difference. Maybe if he magically hits Orianna/Ashe/Kindred with a combo, but if one of them survives then FNC straight up outdamages TES 3vs5.
Look at Bwipo, he's tanking the entire TES team for like 10 seconds. And Karsa is dead right before every objective, there's almost 0 chance of FNC losing this right now.
Yeah it can fucking bite us in the ass now. Also, how did the meta shift so hard into botlane focus? Did the meta organically shift during the tournament, or did it shift right before the tournament?
I'd have thought TES would have picked purple side after losing on blue side twice.
Edit: I think this draft is fresh enough that top is probably happy with it. Ranged support is huge I think. That being said, with Lee, Ez & Karma... I think their lategame is kinda sketchy.
Wtf, TES almost threw at that dragon fight. Karsa so close to dying early, and JL almost gave a shutdown to Rekkles. They engaged 2vs5 ffs.
FNC is close to Soul, Lee is starting to fall off, and Orrnaments are coming out. If TES don't break the game in the next 5 minutes, this is going to get really ugly.
On October 17 2020 21:40 Uldridge wrote: No one kills Sion in a 5v5 though.
I think that's fine if you can kill the Ori.
But yeah, that was a stomp.
I think the range support that game was huge. Turned Fnatics early game lane Kingdom into another winning lane. Removed the leverage into the even mid game. In three games this far, Fnatic has lost all 6 solo lanes. If they can't win bot lane they might be in trouble.
Although other factor, like you guys said, was the khazix. Not a big fan of picking a losing jungle matchup in this meta. Troll.
You'll never kill the Ori with your carries though, since Sion is so disruptive, you have him in your backline, actually killing Jhin or Vel'koz. Who's gonna get to Ori (+ball shield and resists and Seraph's shield) and 3 other players (+Karma shield and Lee protection) keep her alive?
So the only realistic way of trying to kill Ori is with Kha and Ornn or Kha and Rakan (because you need at least 1 disruptive champ in the backline to help deal with Sion), which isn't going to cut it.
What? Velkoz worked perfectly fine, it was definitely Khazix and the enemy Karma pick significantly moreso than the Vel pick.
Also I think revealing Nemesis can play Sett mid here would be more important than flexing it to Hyli for the tournament long term imo. Assuming they can get out of this one that is
I'm getting hard flashbacks of 2018 where Bwipo(Soaz)/Caps couldnt flex the Viktor and Galio and it bit them in the ass in draft in the finals. I wouldn't have minded the Galio support or maybe even some weird AP pick like Swain support just to show that Nemesis has the ability to play Sett
@iCanada I don't. Having your protection Rekkles comps when he's performing and Selfmade being a jungle genius being able to pump out damage as well, but being a bit more self reliant, you can use Galio to help them keep people off Ashe.
Edit: sad overextend by FNC, it took so long for them to kill Senna!
I think the ghost blade pick up is about killing Karsa and not getting locked into the shit Ornn upgrade. You can't kill Nidalee on Graves if you go Cleaver.
Also the reason why I didn't like the Galio. Means Sion is unkillable or you lose every skirmish until 4 items.
I'd say counterpick Sion, there must be good counters to him, no? TES waits for the Ornn to counterpick him. Either ban, fp or go red side and counterpick toplane. You don't have many other choices, because it's this singular pick that's completely throwing FNC off.
On October 17 2020 22:39 Sent. wrote: I mean, it's just Sion. The problem was in Fnatic's damage composition, he's not worth a ban.
You solve this with Botrk/Runaans/Last whisper on Ashe and Black Cleaver on Graves. I understand the crit build path, but it's not online until 4 items once you actually also get the LW against the Sion. Fights are too front to back with the Sion for them to get damage on Senna/Jayce/Nidalee here.
Which champs would you suggest to cut through the Sion by the way?
Hard to build the Cleaver on Graves though vs Nidalee. You're giving up a lot of skirmish power.
I think the play for Fnatic is baiting the Karsa Nidalee and taking the real favored Eve matchup. Then your damage composition looks way nicer and the tank top can't just greed build Ninja Tabis + sunfire + frozen heart.
But I think that might be hard to draft; TES has been careful not to first pick Nidalee.
Well they could make it work with the same champions if Ashe and Graves built differently, but I think it's better to have some kind of AP insurance in the mid lane. I know Ori and TF were banned but Nemesis should be able to play something more threatening than Galio.
Btw I agree Velkoz wasn't a problem in the Khazix game.
On October 17 2020 22:49 iCanada wrote: Hard to build the Cleaver on Graves though vs Nidalee. You're giving up a lot of skirmish power.
I think the play for Fnatic is baiting the Karsa Nidalee and taking the real favored Eve matchup. Then your damage composition looks way nicer and the tank top can't just greed build Ninja Tabis + sunfire + frozen heart.
But I think that might be hard to draft; TES has been careful not to first pick Nidalee.
Hard to skirmish.. lol. Once you have your warrior enchant and components of a second item you're down to 5v5s at the drake. Also, Nidalee can simply avoid the fights (or vica versa) and they can just farm up and get strong anyway.
OOOOO. How spicy would a fucking TF + Noct combo be?
Looks like a lot of comfort picks from both sides. I love how Selfmade isn't afraid to bring out the Gragas. I don't really like it into Vlad though, he can dodge the cask.
GP vs Vlad is a farm lane, a good GP can bully early but it's dangerous because Vlad has the all in. At some point Vlad just runs the lane over, depends on how much farm he's managed to get.
Yeah Lee and Leona were super low, Selfmade should've gone in, would at least have been a 2 for 2. Think they're a bit wary because their engages threw the last 2 games.
Ffs JL dodged everything in that mid engage, why does he always play like a god after inting the start of a series.
I feel bad for Fnatic. If they get 3-0d or maybe take one game, people would be giving Fnatic all kinds of praise m instead, they get closer to upsetting the tournament favorites than anyone thought possible, and they're getting hard flamed for choking.
Sjokz drawing death threats on Twitter, her mentions are scary.
Yeah she should have seen that coming, people are insane and that was the legit biggest caster curse in the history of caster curses. Like obviously people shouldn't do that, but people were always going to after that level of curse
Also watching the post match press conference and no one has asked Nemesis anything. Everyone else including Mithy gets fielded questions
People are idiots, she's probably pretty upset after her hype piece backfiring, her EU fan spirit leaked and then Fnatic fell flat on their faces.
Imo if Nemesis gets replaced (maybe Larssen or Humanoid are looking for a team with a real top laner?), this team is basically a more experienced 2018 lineup. I thought he looked great in game 2 with his Ori but every other game he was outclassed, and not just because it was Knight.
I enjoy the meming on Reddit or a forum like this. I think that's totally fine, all in good fun, and is kind of the nature of being a content creator. But I think flaming someone on their personal platform is a bit different.
But I guess that's also a byproduct of going mainstream and the lowest common denominator.
I definitely thought this team had serious Samsung Galaxy 2017 vibes with a solid bot laner and amazing support, solid top and jungle with a weaker mid who has a real talent for negating the enemy mid laner. Sadly it wasn't meant to be. I wouldn't mind the runback in 2021 tbh
This GenG is still a top 8 team at Worlds, and therefore internationally. They do have some flaws (less coinflip than DRX though), but I think a lot of top teams look messy because the meta is very snowbally, so many games over before lv 3, unless the losing team goes for fairly risky plays and the winning team plays too passively.
Wtf, can't believe Ruler won that bot lane engage.
Missed all but the last half of game 3 of the series, but I expected G2 to 3-0.
I felt bad for Ruler & Rascal watching that. Both of them were just popping off 2v7, but like... its clear as hell that G2 as a five man roster just dumpstered GenG as a five man Roster.
On October 11 2020 23:44 Sent. wrote: TES > FNC SN > JDG GEN < G2 DWG > DRX
You kind sir are my savior.
I was so torn between SN and JDG, but you gave me the last push I needed. I'm now leading the office's betting tournament with a pretty hefty amount. Aside from suddenly being able to buy a new funboard "for free" I'm now looking to almost surely getting in top 2 for one of the big prizes. :D
On October 19 2020 00:06 Sent. wrote: My SN vs JDG prediction was a blind guess, glad I could help ^^
I was sitting with a slight edge to SN since JDG didn't seem that strong and SN had played really well, then you made me think more over it. SN seems like a team that's really good at riding momentum so I figured if they could just win a single game they'd win the entire series. Since they had at least 3 attempts to do so an if assumed a 50-50 chance for each I took the chance. :D
These semis are IMO going to be so hype for the same reason. DWG-G2 can go either way and I think SN actually have a legit chance too. TES might stomp, but if they throw a single game they are up for a rude awakening.
If Claps turns up vs DWG every single game, I could see it happen, assuming the rest of his team doesn't get exposed. Which tbh is realistic, since DWG isn't some win-lane-win-game team, they're all really good but they break the early mid game open through smart teamwork. Only real worry I have is Canyon vs Jankos, simply because Canyon is playing mad good this tournament.
I expect TES to stomp SN, because TES has got to be mad after that FNC series, and this is an opponent they know well. But who knows, maybe this will be the first time a dark horse reaches the finals.
I think I might bet on G2 in the semifinal, but if they do manage to win it, the final will likely look similar to last year's final, that is the Chinese team will never allow G2 to dictate what happens on the map. Like the first game of G2 vs GenG but without the latter mental booming for no reason.
I see SN taking on TES tbh. They have been growing insanely this tournament and I think TES haven't really shown any super impressive gameplay over their summer selves. In any case, the games that are left should be treats for us no matter what.
On October 19 2020 16:16 DarkCore wrote: Yeah, please no more stomps, the only decently close series in quarters this year was FNC vs TES, and that was bad for my heart.
I'm OK with g2 stomping, the rest can sweat in their series.
Top lane is going to tilt so badly one way, Fiora outscales Camille but if one gets a kill it snowballs out of control. And just as I write that, Jankos Mikyx get a good gank.
Leona 100% wr in this series so far, really a power pick with a lot of flexibility and utility... Yeah probably should try to re-main her in solo queue
On October 24 2020 22:02 AzAlexZ wrote: Leona 100% wr in this series so far, really a power pick with a lot of flexibility and utility... Yeah probably should try to re-main her in solo queue
whenever I get autofilled into support I pick Leona and collect some free LP
I this is probably the most disappointing worlds bo5 I've seen ever. It never felt like it was the better team that won, it was legit the team playing least horrible. These kinds of games are what I see in soloQ.
I remember in the post-game interview with Travis when Wunder said they thought Damwon wasn't a threat. Well looks like he got slapped, rekt, and trashed. so satisfying to see him get Giga stomped for being a cocky lil shit. Btw it was after G2 3-0 Gen.G
On October 24 2020 22:38 AzAlexZ wrote: I remember in the post-game interview with Travis when Wunder said they thought Damwon wasn't a threat. Well looks like he got slapped, rekt, and trashed. so satisfying to see him get Giga stomped for being a cocky lil shit
Wunder has always and always will be a cocky lil shit. lol
On October 24 2020 22:38 AzAlexZ wrote: I remember in the post-game interview with Travis when Wunder said they thought Damwon wasn't a threat. Well looks like he got slapped, rekt, and trashed. so satisfying to see him get Giga stomped for being a cocky lil shit
Wunder has always and always will be a cocky lil shit. lol
I know which is why I hate and love him as a player. Same with Doublelift, sometimes they back it up, other times it sounds downright arrogant, so you love to see them lose
On October 24 2020 22:38 AzAlexZ wrote: I remember in the post-game interview with Travis when Wunder said they thought Damwon wasn't a threat. Well looks like he got slapped, rekt, and trashed. so satisfying to see him get Giga stomped for being a cocky lil shit
Wunder has always and always will be a cocky lil shit. lol
I know which is why I hate and love him as a player. Same as Doublelift, sometimes they back it up, other times it sounds downright arrogant, so you love to see them lose
yeah its fun to have people like him in the scene whether you are a fan of him or not lol
Very underwhelming semis tbh. Second game and a bit of the first was nice. The last two games were very very one sided. Quite dissapointing. Hope tomorrow delivers!
Man, SN really the dark horse of this tournament, doubt even CN fans expected them to take down JDG and TES. Seems like G2 getting second in their group had a good reason.
I always rate them down but they always impress, so maybe they can actually beat DWG? My brain says no, but...
JL was really underwhelming this Worlds. Rekkles/Hyli bodied him, and Huanfeng also outclassed him today. So much inting...
pretty crazy run from Suning, I feel for Karsa especially but at least Swordart makes finals. I think DWG will win finals but I've predicted against Suning twice in the bracket so what do I know lol. Also I do think that Knight compared to his LPL form underperformed at worlds, he certainly wasn't bad but I don't think he ever looked like the best mid in the tournament.
Im just gonna say the CNCN semi was a total shitshow. Maybe being mildly better at shitshowing is the new meta, but in G1 the wrong team won, and in G2 the wrong team won, and then in G3 and 4 the right team won, but they tried really hard to not win.
Its really bad, and we need more vision or something. Like, a team with a Jax trying to force fights while Jax is pushing on your own side of the river? You do know that that is basically your dream? Right? Like the reality is he's about to take an inhib if you just fuck with the enemy for a while instead of trying to dive wolves.
Lack of vision is a defining aspect of the current meta, its the main reason rigid KR macro doesn't work anymore, you can't light the map up with wards when ahead. Some teams still place very few wards though, I think SN is one of them.
I just don't see SN standing a chance, they are good but messy. This DWG version looks like the best KR team in years, they have crazy good macro and are proactive without suiciding like monkeys (GenG this year...). Nobody on the team is a weak link, they have solid laning phase and great team fighting. Be interesting to see the Canyon SoFM match up, also the Bin Nuguri top duel since both are primarily carry players who would love to play Jax/Fiora/Sett/Camille etc.
Glad to see I'm not not only one predicting Damwon to win. Was worried I might be irrationally biased against Sunning because I bet against them in the semifinal too despite them looking better than TES earlier.
No worries, I actually feel I am also unfairly biased, SN has shown the entire tournament that they're a top team beating 2 contenders (3 if you count G2), but DWG is so clean and looks like the best team KR in years. Watching LPL this year, there was no real indication that SN would beat JDG and TES, they were a top team but still a tier below the big 2.
We've never really had a dark horse in the finals, besides S2 because of lack of information on TPA. FPX/G2 were both first seeds, FNC/iG was a first seed and everyone who watched LPL knew iG was just a monster roster, both SSG/SKT finals were expected given KR dominance.
Close game, but the DWG drake control was huge and really swung the game. Starting with that fight at Soul, the game got really messy, lots of picks which let one game dictate the next 2+ minutes.
Showmaker MVP imo, lots of great ults and zone control in team fights.
DWG was so controlled from a certain point onwards (after first baron for SN), it didn't feel like that at all. They literally left no gap open for them to engage. This could definitely go 3-0 or 3-2, very hard to call at the moment.
On October 31 2020 20:23 10bulgares wrote: Quality game 1. Bin made the game competitive for a while but in the end, Damwon managed to get rid of that Wukong ult when it mattered.
DAMWON really controlled Wukong so well (other than the one Elder fight). Had the flank locked down at all times. beryl so good
Fnatic went 1-1 vs a Korean 3rd seed that qualified off of the back of another team throwing in a game they weren’t in, i think we can pump the breaks on them>Korea
On October 31 2020 23:25 Slusher wrote: Fnatic went 1-1 vs a Korean 3rd seed that qualified off of the back of another team throwing in a game they weren’t in, I think we can pump the breaks on them>Korea
I mean G2 3-0'd (FNC 1-1) Gen.G who 3-0'd T1 who was the next best team in Korea so he's not wrong
Also gen G is Dependent on Ruler who was playing in a head bandage because his ear infection was so bad. Fnatic is a good team but looking back at the tournament they got 2nd in the worst group and lost their only bo5, this doesn’t validate saying they’re >Korea.
G2: SN look strong, feels like they have a chance this series G3: DWG crack a very difficult nut, it took time but they eventually find enough openings to close the game G4: Canyon decides being the best jungler this tournament isn't enough, and hands the final game to his team on a silver plate. Absolute destruction, probably the only SofM game this tournament where he looked completely outclassed.
KR teams should be scared shitless, this team is going to roll over DRX/GenG/T1 in LCK next year unless something crazy happens.
Does anyone else think its kind of weird that the LEC spent a year purposefully cultivating casting duos (MediVedi/Mom&Dad/whatever Quickshot and Ender called themselves) but then in the finals Riot went "nope we're doing Quickshot/Vedi". Not to shit on either of them, I thought they did a great job, but I just think it was a weird decision to not reward one of the duos they spent a year building
Yeah, G2 lost in a similar fashion to SN, they both did well in game 2, held on in game 1 and 3, and then got blasted in game 4. No surprise teams tire vs DWG, they punish every mistake while leaving so few open themselves.
In the end the best team won IMO. I haven't watched lol until worlds this year, so no clue what to expect, but after groups I was pretty confident that Damwon would win. Maybe I'll watch some LCK again next year, because watching them play really is exciting.
I'm pretty surprised at people here rating Fnatic so high, I didn't consider them to be special in any way tbh.
It's a pity that all China teams (and Korean as well) were on one side of the bracket. It's pretty hard to draw conclusions about regions this way. Pretty clear though that the rest of Korea really should learn from Damwon. (And NA should as well lol)
On November 01 2020 07:41 Yorbon wrote: In the end the best team won IMO. I haven't watched lol until worlds this year, so no clue what to expect, but after groups I was pretty confident that Damwon would win. Maybe I'll watch some LCK again next year, because watching them play really is exciting.
I'm pretty surprised at people here rating Fnatic so high, I didn't consider them to be special in any way tbh.
It's a pity that all China teams (and Korean as well) were on one side of the bracket. It's pretty hard to draw conclusions about regions this way. Pretty clear though that the rest of Korea really should learn from Damwon. (And NA should as well lol)
This Worlds was mostly predictable, outside of SN beating JDG and TES. DWG was a heavy favorite, Group A had LGD as expected, winners of each group were as predicted (albeit some debate about the exact order), G2 and FNC showed glimpses of good play but too messy/some major flaws to make it to finals etc.
Weren't we mostly pessimistic about FNC on LL? They showed glimpses of great play so we got our hopes up. After all, they had a very real chance of making it out as 1st seed over GenG, and they almost took out TES, they failed both times but people are hopeful for next year.
I think anyone saying any prediction closer than Top 3-1 FNC was hard trolling or a blind fan boy, but I still think its fair to say they were the 5th or 6th best performing team at the tournament depending on your perception of JDG. Which is pretty insane given their lackluster year and how hard Nemesis got exposed. I think the context of their run and the fact that the rumored "one of Perkz/Caps will leave G2" leaves people really hopeful for next year, because realistically if whoever leaves wants to win they'll probably join that Fnatic roster.
Also upon looking at the groups again I don't think its crazy to say TL was actually the 8th best team in the tournament given DRX made the playoffs beating Fly/UoL, while TL lost in groups but took games off of 2 of the 4 semifinalists. But of course DRX got stomped by the champions in quarters, and may have faired better against GenG/Suning/TOP. Although I doubt it
To round off the 10th World Championship, I'd like to take a trip down memory lane to one of my fav moments of Worlds history: SHRC Insec headstomping TSM with Rengar (whom if you'll remember was a MASSIVE troll pick in NA at the time). Feel free to post your own highlights/best moments/games whatever here as well.
God, that game is nostalgic . Old Irelia had such terrifying sound animations and her Q was so crisp since it had no real animation. Can't remember which iteration of Ryze this is, is it the original one before all his reworks?
Crazy that only 1 player in this game is still a pro, and that's WildTurtle. Quite a few are coaches though.
I loved this game because volibear was one of my favorite champions at the time and he was not being played and lovelin just put on a volibear clinic including multiple passive baits
Not pictured in the highlights is Dyrus at full health flashing away from lovelin at 10% health because he didn’t know lovelin had no backup
I love the nostalgia, but as a super slow catcher-upper, I have to say SWG G4 was basically the only time I've seen a Kindred use Ult consistently well ever. In pro games Kindred ult is almost always this wasted resource that seems potentially powerful, but usually is just like a worse defensive Zhonyas, where 90% of the time your team scatters and you die, so now you are on 2 cooldowns instead of 1. In G4 the Kindred Ults were really effective, and many times. I've never seen it before. Maybe someone has 2 good kindred ults in a game, but this one had like 5. 5 good kindred ults is like 20 pro games worth.
EPT
Also, Impact!
I think that's the leaderboard link, but not the invite link, I can't join it
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