- Sixteen Teams -Group Stage: -Teams are divided into four groups of four: -Double Round Robin -Matches are best of one -Top two teams from each group advance to Knockout Stage -Knockout Stage -Single elimination -Matches are best of five - LoL esports wiki link
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Group A: ROX/G2/CLG/ANX Group B: SKT/FW/C9/I May Group C: EDG/AHQ/H2k/Intz Group D: TSM/RNG/SSG/Splyce
I can see both Samsung and C9 making runs in their groups, but call me a believer in Mata's ability to learn Braum in the month between playoffs and Worlds.
Group A: Rox, G2, CLG, that wildcard team I don't see CLG making it out of the group unless G2 commits sudoku again. If both teams play their best G2 should win easily.
Group B: SKT, FW, C9, IMay I don't know why but I just don't believe in C9 and TSM. I know it's irrational but there is something about those teams that makes me think "they're good enough to win LCS but they'll never do well at Worlds".
On September 29 2016 04:03 Sent. wrote: Group A: Rox, G2, CLG, that wildcard team I don't see CLG making it out of the group unless G2 commits sudoku again. If both teams play their best G2 should win easily.
Group B: SKT, FW, C9, IMay I don't know why but I just don't believe in C9 and TSM. I know it's irrational but there is something about those teams that makes me think "they're good enough to win LCS but they'll never do well at Worlds".
Got a 1:2 bet in my favor with a friend that all korean teams will top their group. Good bet or nah? Skt/rox are favored anyways and I just need ssg to get #1 which is fairly reasonable.
On September 29 2016 23:35 dsyxelic wrote: Got a 1:2 bet in my favor with a friend that all korean teams will top their group. Good bet or nah? Skt/rox are favored anyways and I just need ssg to get #1 which is fairly reasonable.
see if you can stall out till after tsm plays rng to get some intel
On September 30 2016 05:51 Redox wrote: Pretty sad about the schedule. Will be the first time I will not be able to watch Worlds live.
Hell, I'm on east coast NA and the times aren't good for me either.
how come? im east coast and it works out pretty well for me. done with classes for the day, and not too late since i can sleep at ~1 and watch everything.
ofc sometimes ill be busy but pretty convenient timing
On September 30 2016 05:51 Redox wrote: Pretty sad about the schedule. Will be the first time I will not be able to watch Worlds live.
Hell, I'm on east coast NA and the times aren't good for me either.
how come? im east coast and it works out pretty well for me. done with classes for the day, and not too late since i can sleep at ~1 and watch everything.
ofc sometimes ill be busy but pretty convenient timing
Over the past month or so the latest I've stayed up is 1am once. Every other day I've went to bed from 10:30 to midnight. The TSM game is set to start at 1:30 if they stay on schedule. Based on gametime the day is already almost 20 minutes behind schedule.
Yeah, this Olaf steamrolling everyone doesn't surprise me. Go mobis on Elise, I don't know what you're bringing. Not even ganking more than the Olaf. Xmithie is pretty on point.
Although I am rooting more for EU teams I like CLG doing well. They always get rated so low by everyone but then they show up again. And G2 cockyness sucks.
On September 30 2016 09:08 Kinie wrote: Why is there no tear on Jayce by 22 minutes?
He went flat ARP early, must have liked it more in practice or something
Yeah, get the Serated Dirk then go back and get Tear, just blow Poppy out of lane. He was up like 50cs by time lane phase ended, he could've been up 60-70 by lane phase and just hard carried G2 with his gold lead.
On September 30 2016 09:08 Kinie wrote: Why is there no tear on Jayce by 22 minutes?
He went flat ARP early, must have liked it more in practice or something
Yeah, get the Serated Dirk then go back and get Tear, just blow Poppy out of lane. He was up like 50cs by time lane phase ended, he could've been up 60-70 by lane phase and just hard carried G2 with his gold lead.
they just woulda lost worse if he bought a tear at any point.
On September 30 2016 09:07 Redox wrote: I feel this game was decided by one top laner TPing, the other not. Twice.
On September 30 2016 09:08 Kinie wrote: Why is there no tear on Jayce by 22 minutes?
He went flat ARP early, must have liked it more in practice or something
Yeah, get the Serated Dirk then go back and get Tear, just blow Poppy out of lane. He was up like 50cs by time lane phase ended, he could've been up 60-70 by lane phase and just hard carried G2 with his gold lead.
they just woulda lost worse if he bought a tear at any point.
Can Korea ever go without underestimating and take every single match seriously no matter the opponent? If they did that then there wouldn't be these kinds of hilarious fuck ups. Also, I just want these kinds of games to go by quick but ROX is making that difficult . . .
Korean commentators are saying that Doublelift is playing without his summoners. MaTa is a superlative player, but Doublelift was certainly making him look good. I thought the game would be decided by whether Bjergsen was good enough to expose Xiaohu like Rookie or Faker managed to do before, Bjergsen showcased his class, but I think this was a game where MaTa proved that there were mountains beyond mountains.
On September 30 2016 15:29 Letmelose wrote: Korean commentators are saying that Doublelift is playing without his summoners. MaTa is a superlative player, but Doublelift was certainly making him look good. I thought the game would be decided by whether Bjergsen was good enough to expose Xiaohu like Rookie or Faker managed to do before, Bjergsen showcased his class, but I think this was a game where MaTa proved that there were mountains beyond mountains.
Haven't gone back to rewatch it(and don't want to, dear lord) but somebody on reddit said that Mata was flashpulving Dlift every time, so that makes it super difficult for him to try and escape because by the time he'd get control back again he's either dead or grounded by Cass.
On September 30 2016 15:29 Letmelose wrote: Korean commentators are saying that Doublelift is playing without his summoners. MaTa is a superlative player, but Doublelift was certainly making him look good. I thought the game would be decided by whether Bjergsen was good enough to expose Xiaohu like Rookie or Faker managed to do before, Bjergsen showcased his class, but I think this was a game where MaTa proved that there were mountains beyond mountains.
Haven't gone back to rewatch it(and don't want to, dear lord) but somebody on reddit said that Mata was flashpulving Dlift every time, so that makes it super difficult for him to try and escape because by the time he'd get control back again he's either dead or grounded by Cass.
I don't think Doublelift was thinking about the win conditions of the game, nor did he respect the engage potential of Alistar, even after being punished for it multiple times, and the thing is he seemed more tilted by it than anything rather than reacting to it better over time. I don't know, it's just that Doublelift has this historical tendency to randomly feed against top class supports on the big stage whether its Madlife, GorillA, or MaTa. I don't know, the rest of the team impressed me, but if this was a solo-que game I was in, I would have flamed the bottom lane to no ends, it was that tilting for me.
On October 01 2016 01:48 Jek wrote: How were yesterdays matches? Any worth watching?
I watched the European games and TSM vs RNG, none of them were particularly exciting. CLG vs G2 was very one-sided. H2K vs AHQ was boring. Splyce picked Kled and had an interesting strategy but the game was just okay. TSM vs RNG was good.
On September 30 2016 15:29 Letmelose wrote: Korean commentators are saying that Doublelift is playing without his summoners. MaTa is a superlative player, but Doublelift was certainly making him look good. I thought the game would be decided by whether Bjergsen was good enough to expose Xiaohu like Rookie or Faker managed to do before, Bjergsen showcased his class, but I think this was a game where MaTa proved that there were mountains beyond mountains.
Haven't gone back to rewatch it(and don't want to, dear lord) but somebody on reddit said that Mata was flashpulving Dlift every time, so that makes it super difficult for him to try and escape because by the time he'd get control back again he's either dead or grounded by Cass.
I don't think Doublelift was thinking about the win conditions of the game, nor did he respect the engage potential of Alistar, even after being punished for it multiple times, and the thing is he seemed more tilted by it than anything rather than reacting to it better over time. I don't know, it's just that Doublelift has this historical tendency to randomly feed against top class supports on the big stage whether its Madlife, GorillA, or MaTa. I don't know, the rest of the team impressed me, but if this was a solo-que game I was in, I would have flamed the bottom lane to no ends, it was that tilting for me.
Looked like the normal TSM getting flustered after things not going to plan then just completely tilting. RNG played it incredibly well and executed every chance TSM gave them but man TSM didn't even try make it hard. TSM bot lane kept trying to contest vision alone in the river which they lost long ago for some reason. Neither top nor mid really used the advantage gained to accomplish much so most of Svens pressure amounted to nothing.
For some reason TSM kept thinking that they could go bot and contest for vision when they got stomped pretty hard in lane phase by Mata.
Honestly, Mata almost single-handedly won this game for RNG with his flash pulverizes and headbutts. Pretty much every team fight was him getting a pulverize on Bjerg or Dlift followed by Cassi throwing out her miasma and stopping any flash or escape movement skill, and them getting 100-0'd by focus fire.
The one time TSM had a chance to fight and win a teamfight Dlift and Bjerg were dead by the time Hauntzer completed his TP to flank ult RNG's backline (at the dragon pit). After that point there was no way TSM could win a teamfight barring an amazing Lee flank w/ Ori ball on top and Kennen racing in during the shockwave to ult and stun everyone.
The Jhin pick was worthless, I'd rather they stuck with Ezreal and just play a more skirmishing team comp with Lee, Ori, and Kennen getting pick-offs when RNG went to ward their jungle or try to farm in the jungle.
On September 30 2016 15:29 Letmelose wrote: Korean commentators are saying that Doublelift is playing without his summoners. MaTa is a superlative player, but Doublelift was certainly making him look good. I thought the game would be decided by whether Bjergsen was good enough to expose Xiaohu like Rookie or Faker managed to do before, Bjergsen showcased his class, but I think this was a game where MaTa proved that there were mountains beyond mountains.
Haven't gone back to rewatch it(and don't want to, dear lord) but somebody on reddit said that Mata was flashpulving Dlift every time, so that makes it super difficult for him to try and escape because by the time he'd get control back again he's either dead or grounded by Cass.
I don't think Doublelift was thinking about the win conditions of the game, nor did he respect the engage potential of Alistar, even after being punished for it multiple times, and the thing is he seemed more tilted by it than anything rather than reacting to it better over time. I don't know, it's just that Doublelift has this historical tendency to randomly feed against top class supports on the big stage whether its Madlife, GorillA, or MaTa. I don't know, the rest of the team impressed me, but if this was a solo-que game I was in, I would have flamed the bottom lane to no ends, it was that tilting for me.
literally the only impressive one on TSM yesterday was sven. yeah bjerg had a CS advantage but he didn't put any pressure on anyone with it, whiffed 3+ ults, didn't ward and got caught out badly at the end. biofrost face checked some stuff he shouldn't have. hauntzer didn't have any plays to make either
Yeah, Faker is drawing so much jungler pressure without even blowing flash. Just singlehandedly stopping meteos from doing anything useful other than zoning.
I think if Faker had 1vs2ed up there, C9 might as well have typed ff. Meteos doing OK, but he lacked presence early in the game. Jensen fed pretty hard though, not much he could do mid lane.
On October 01 2016 08:53 Amui wrote: I think this was the hardest stomp yet this tournament. Which is saying something when both wildcard teams already played.
This match looked like what EDG/INTZ was "supposed" to
On October 01 2016 08:51 DarkCore wrote: I think if Faker had 1vs2ed up there, C9 might as well have typed ff. Meteos doing OK, but he lacked presence early in the game. Jensen fed pretty hard though, not much he could do mid lane.
Dont know if its Meteos playing bad or Faker playing well but Lee wasted like two early ganks in mid without landing a q on Syndra
On October 01 2016 08:53 Amui wrote: I think this was the hardest stomp yet this tournament. Which is saying something when both wildcard teams already played.
Yeah this SKT looks pretty terrifying. It's the no mistake (when they play serious), perfect rotations SKT that wins Worlds. Which makes me really wonder if Tigers can take them on, or we end up with another slaughter in the finals.
Dont know if its Meteos playing bad or Faker playing well but Lee wasted like two early ganks in mid without landing a q on Syndra
Faker is notorious for dodging abilities, always playing mind games.
Well yeah, it's too early to say for sure, but all their players are obviously in top form, and they look very well rehearsed with their game plans. This was a standard SKT game, get an advantage and drive it home in a seemingly scripted manner. No other team (one game sample though) has shown anything remotely on par with that, except for glimpses with the Tigers, who were practically trolling with the number of free kills they gave.
I'm actually interested in what he meant by internal issues. Could it relate to the fact that bengi is playing? I might of course be thinking too much.
Something I'm surprised they didn't talk about, Sneaky and Smoothie were actually pretty good that game and should give the rest of the bot lanes a run for their money. While I didn't think they had a good chance of beating SKT I don't think this is worrying about their chances against IMay and FW
Hey guys, almost a year since I last watched lol for real and the worlds (and INTZ) hype got to me! Sorry about the question, but do we have any heavy favourites? I will try to read some of the threads to catch up!
On October 01 2016 06:26 ParadeofMadness wrote: Looking forward to SSG smashing TSM. Can't wait for the great hope of the west, a Top 5 ADC and NALCS Rookie MVP get analized.
Is this what it's liked when a girl says she wants to try anal and you end up getting pegged instead?
I think that cut of Yamatocannon saying we have the tools to play at the highest level of league of legends only for it to cut to their bot lane getting donked on is my second favorite cut after Wild Turtle laughing when someone on his team said they're going to win the series because better than C9.
As expected this year EU are trash :D. Too bad fnatic sank, because now NA probably > EU. If CN are in form this could be interesting to watch even at bad EU hours. SKT'll win the whole thing as usual I hope. Go SKT, EDG and TSM I guess.
Finally got time to watch vods from past few days.
Why is EDG playing Pawn? I get he is "better" than scout and has a better career more experience etc etc. but he is out of practice. Pawn barely played last season. And EDG with scout didn't drop a single match. You don't change a winning formula. Scout should start mid lane until he losses a match. But as long as he keeps winning they shouldn't sub out their winning team.
As surprising as this fiesta was these two groups would be the easiest possible groups for a wildcard region to make it out. Like swap C9/Splyce with either INTZ/ANX and the wildcards would be fucked
Best thing about this tournament so far has been the performance of the wild cards. I am aware CLG played poorly and way too loose. But it is still awesome to see how ballsy these underdogs play. And there were some great plays in there.
Maybe I'm just being cynical, but it is hard for me to be impressed by Kennen ults after protobelt became an item. The fact it was so good was mostly because G2 clustered up so so obscenely closely and delivered the perfect opportunity to Smeb. The actual execution beyond realizing the opportunity is there is minimal.
On October 02 2016 10:27 zer0das wrote: Maybe I'm just being cynical, but it is hard for me to be impressed by Kennen ults after protobelt became an item. The fact it was so good was mostly because G2 clustered up so so obscenely closely and delivered the perfect opportunity to Smeb. The actual execution beyond realizing the opportunity is there is minimal.
If I saw it correctly, I actually think kuro also was a hero in that fight, as the three people with flash up all were silenced during the kennen ult. The brilliance of the fight was imo the combination of kuro and smeb, where smeb went in at exactly the right moment, while the silence was not yet active, but unavoidable, to maximize its effect.
Anyone else notice how disturbingly bad C9's Zhonya's timing was? Like they consistently shot off skillshots too early against FW enemies coming out of Zhonya's.
On October 02 2016 11:57 GrandInquisitor wrote: Anyone else notice how disturbingly bad C9's Zhonya's timing was? Like they consistently shot off skillshots too early against FW enemies coming out of Zhonya's.
Didn't matter! We got dis bois.
But yeah, it was pretty bad. Which pretty much describes this entire game.
On October 02 2016 11:57 GrandInquisitor wrote: Anyone else notice how disturbingly bad C9's Zhonya's timing was? Like they consistently shot off skillshots too early against FW enemies coming out of Zhonya's.
No worries you can't miss caitlyn trap on a zhonyad target
I really don't know why they put DL on Jhin. He has never looked good on it, even when they win. He also looks like he is under performing in general as well.
On October 02 2016 12:57 dsyxelic wrote: fw should learn from skt, how to close
clean game.
Umm ... Rox should learn how to close from SKT. Skt are the closing kings. Thier entire history is basically summed up by that one game in S3 worlds where they pushed to inhib at around 20 minutes from T1 mid.
just got done watching the TSM replay, TSMs bot lane has been their very clear weak point in this tournament, I'm not even sure if TSM gets behind if Double doesn't donate fire drake and baron to Splyce.
I tend to agree with the other posts that say Jihn might be the reason for this? but maybe DL just isn't world class anymore, I mean he is a s1 player.
On October 03 2016 00:40 Slusher wrote: just got done watching the TSM replay, TSMs bot lane has been their very clear weak point in this tournament, I'm not even sure if TSM gets behind if Double doesn't donate fire drake and baron to Splyce.
I tend to agree with the other posts that say Jihn might be the reason for this? but maybe DL just isn't world class anymore, I mean he is a s1 player.
The problems with double's Jihn could be solved with Gold mechanics, he just always walks through chokes as if he is on Lucian.
TSM vs Splyce had some hilariously bad decision making on both sides. Wunder didn't have zhonya 42 minutes in and went in when his team was not close enough to follow instantly, wtf
On October 03 2016 00:40 Slusher wrote: DL just isn't world class
ftfy
More seriously, I think biofrost is a really weak support compared to average supports at worlds. I'm not really impressed by his pathing just before teamfights, taking too much risks without any real gain. On DL getting caught out, I believe it was in the beginning of s6 that he got criticized for it as well, and responded by saying he was following shotcalls. So that might be a possible cause. (just speculating ofc)
I've just watched the rng vs tsm game again, and the common theme surrounding tsm's loss was the vision game. Nearly every time DL was picked off, was when tsm was overextended without the appropriate vision. Additionally, I think DL plays Jhin too far forward compared to the rest of the team.
I think Liftlift dying 1v1 to Malz was overstated.
I think Splyce even having like half their teams gold in a position to kill Double 1v1 means that splyce was playing suboptimally.
Notice how after every single time, Splyce got no objectives? How do you get an objective when you parked half your gold a map away from any objective you can take? No free standing towers top, mid tier 1 was down... Great so Double was dead, but all objectives were still contested 4v4. An even or behind 4v4 for SPY because Malz was ungodly fed.
I don't think SKT or ROX even sends Malz up there. They'd have sent Kennen instead, and no way DL dies to Kennen 1v1 on Jhin. He prolly doesn't kill him either, but he isn't in a position to die. I assume they put him there instead of Rumble because Jhin can cancel Kennen TP.
Notice how after every single time, Splyce got no objectives?
??????????????? they got a fire drake and a baron off of Dlift being in bad positions, their lead was super managable, esp considering scaling until these picks happened.
On October 03 2016 00:40 Slusher wrote: just got done watching the TSM replay, TSMs bot lane has been their very clear weak point in this tournament, I'm not even sure if TSM gets behind if Double doesn't donate fire drake and baron to Splyce.
I tend to agree with the other posts that say Jihn might be the reason for this? but maybe DL just isn't world class anymore, I mean he is a s1 player.
According to DL, Bjergsen is sick and literally can't speak. Since DL and Bjerg do the shotcalling, I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't paying enough attention to what he's doing to make up for that.
On October 03 2016 00:40 Slusher wrote: just got done watching the TSM replay, TSMs bot lane has been their very clear weak point in this tournament, I'm not even sure if TSM gets behind if Double doesn't donate fire drake and baron to Splyce.
I tend to agree with the other posts that say Jihn might be the reason for this? but maybe DL just isn't world class anymore, I mean he is a s1 player.
According to DL, Bjergsen is sick and literally can't speak. Since DL and Bjerg do the shotcalling, I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't paying enough attention to what he's doing to make up for that.
to me that just sounds like excuses. every team has lots of sick members right now. we'll see next week if supposedly everyone gets healthy and it makes a difference
Notice how after every single time, Splyce got no objectives?
??????????????? they got a fire drake and a baron off of Dlift being in bad positions, their lead was super managable, esp considering scaling until these picks happened.
On October 03 2016 08:05 chipmonklord17 wrote: Rooting for the wildcards tonight. They definitely have beatable opponents and could solidify themselves as a contender for their groups
Same. Want to see more upsets. :D
Although I still dont see them as serious contenders.
On October 03 2016 08:05 chipmonklord17 wrote: Rooting for the wildcards tonight. They definitely have beatable opponents and could solidify themselves as a contender for their groups
Same. Want to see more upsets. :D
Although I still dont see them as serious contenders.
I wouldn't say they're serious contenders until they pull off at least one more win. But these are definitely groups they could handle, especially when compared to groups B and D
Vander worse than soloq support. Thats like number 1 rule against Jhin to get the fuck away from him if he can q 4 shot one shot you. I don't even comment that facecheck.
I guess if you cant beat 3vs2 you embrace it LUL. Deft should post on facebook after the game
Every time that Korea loses I just see major draft issues. The real question is: will anybody else be dumb enough to give CLG the Caitlyn-dragon-thunder-cow comp?
A table summarizing the distribution of damage dealt amongst all the teams. Of course, the sample size is super low, but it does show the general tendencies of these teams.
For example,
Group A: ANX is the least reliant on their AD carry for damage out of all the teams in the tournament as of yet, and is the only team in the group that doesn't rely heavily on their AD carry for their source of damage.
Group B: IMay and Flash Wolves are heavily reliant on their mid-laners for damage, whereas Faker for SK Telecom T1 in contrast has not managed to put up the numbers he was able to in the past, and ranks as one of the lowest mid-laners in terms of damage dealt within the team.
Group C: This is the group where the top laners shine, with the likes of Ziv leading the score for the percentage of damage dealt within the team amongst all the top laners at this tournament. In contrast, EDG is completely skewed in the other side of the spectrum, with Deft leading the table in terms of percentage of damage dealt within the team.
Group D: Hauntzer is the only top laner in the group to spearhead the team in terms of damage dealt, and as expected, Uzi is the main source of damage for RNG.
I think if you come to embrace the ever present bugs and glitches that negatively influence the game, the overall tone and atmosphere of the tournament has been pleasantly uplifting, especially the story of the rise of the wildcard regions, an investment of sorts that Riot Games had the foresight to implement all the way back in 2013. I'm eager to see how the meta-game evolves, and hope to see some high quality games between the teams that understand it the best in the bracket stages.
That formatting triggers me. It would be much better if each cell was colored according to whether it is above or below average for that role. For example, the interesting part of the ANX row isn't that their mid has the most damage % on the team, but that their support/jungle is way above average and their top/ADC is way below average.
More than that, the real advanced metric here should be (Damage %age) / (Gold %age). Who's doing better with more gold? Who's doing worse?
It's a slow day at work so depending on how nerd sniped I get I might track down all the match histories to put together this data.
On October 04 2016 01:34 GrandInquisitor wrote: That formatting triggers me. It would be much better if each cell was colored according to whether it is above or below average for that role. For example, the interesting part of the ANX row isn't that their mid has the most damage % on the team, but that their support/jungle is way above average and their top/ADC is way below average.
More than that, the real advanced metric here should be (Damage %age) / (Gold %age). Who's doing better with more gold? Who's doing worse?
It's a slow day at work so depending on how nerd sniped I get I might track down all the match histories to put together this data.
Don't bother. I believe as the number of games accumulate, people will be able to draw general trends.
I was thinking about H2K's performances and I think whoever prepares their early game deserves the most blame.
Against AHQ Jankos at level 1 facechecked solo into Olaf's axe and had to burn his flash. Then he moves bot and is about to tower dive 3v2 but realizes he doesn't have flash and backs off. Few moments later Odo gives up first blood 1v2.
Against EDG Vander facecheks the tribush at level 1 and ruins the lane. He died to Jhin's 4th shot instead of recalling.
In both games they made inexcusable mistakes at level 1 and didn't adjust their play to minimize the loses. I don't know if it's choking, bad luck or lack of preparation but they need to make sure those things won't happen again.
In re guards to damage distribution by % Faker did 25.8% of his teams damage to bang's 31.7% in their match vs c9. But watching the game it's pretty clear Faker's lead is dictating what kind of plays c9 can go for.
I think a stat like this suffers extraordinarily from small sample size because context matters too much across 3 games (2 champions in this case)
On October 03 2016 18:02 geript wrote: Every time that Korea loses I just see major draft issues. The real question is: will anybody else be dumb enough to give CLG the Caitlyn-dragon-thunder-cow comp?
Draft issues and the ability to stall from behind forever. I can't read Korean, but Inven probably isn't freaking out that much.
On October 04 2016 04:50 ticklishmusic wrote: i feel like this is the most games koreans have dropped ever at worlds though.
It isn't. Most of the time they dropped ~3 games in groups. Then they drop games in bracket stage. So unless this keeps up it's pretty par for the course. The format is just designed to generate most hype by obscuring strength until next phase.
Example is season 4 where they dropped 8 in total to non-Koreans. NWS, may your legacy never be overtaken. Although Samsung may try hard to be worse than them lol.
I don't get much of a read on week1 as far as Koreans are concerned. Just seems like typical not taking week 1 seriously.
Rox for example played nocturne once in the lck and it was vs a bottom place team. Gorilla is known for saying Soraka is one of his favorite champions. Pretty sure that was a pick whatever you want to play comp.
On October 04 2016 06:01 Slusher wrote: I don't get much of a read on week1 as far as Koreans are concerned. Just seems like typical not taking week 1 seriously.
Rox for example played nocturne once in the lck and it was vs a bottom place team. Gorilla is known for saying Soraka is one of his favorite champions. Pretty sure that was a pick whatever you want to play comp.
Agreed, I don't think ROX and SKT were even trying in their games, which is quite telling considering they went 2-1 and they weren't even trying.
Korea not trying their hardest and not taking other regions/teams seriously is nothing new. Why try your hardest when your opponents aren't worth it? Wait until your facing a team that calls for tryhard mode. They do it all the time.
I don't think it's that they are sandbagging, it's that they don't want to reveal too much about their pick/ban strategies at this point. Kkoma and all of the other coaches have like a sealed box called like TRYHARD PICK/BAN STRATS that the players are forbidden to look at until they really, really need to win a particular game.
This is incidentally one of the reasons NA did so poorly last year. They went whole hog and just laid everything on the table, naked as you can be, in week 1. When week 2 rolled around, they tried to do the same thing, but everyone else had figured them out. I hope for their sake they spend the intervening days working on adapting their pick/ban to what they've seen in week 1.
When asked why seemingly elite CN teams like LGD were so inconsistent, nearly every Chinese "expert" said sandbagging instead of discussing and pointing out flaws in those teams.
This was the equivalent of at the halfway mark of S6 Summer Monte, Papa, DoA, Achillos, and half the posters on this forum that watch OGN saying "SKT is sandbagging" instead of discussing thier junglers or wolf being the facecheck king, etc.
It's very interesting to see the huge disparity among top laners. NA has both the most expensive top laner (Hauntzer) and the cheapest top laner (Darshan). Next most disparity is among ADCs. Other than chawy and xiaohu, Mid is very compressed, just like Jungle and Support.
BANG FOR THE BUCK (high damage %, low gold %)
The top/ADC outliers at the top of the graph are Ziv Deft. Right below them are Athena/Maple in mid lane. In the jungle, Bengi gets less gold than any other jungler but does pretty well for himself damage-wise. A special shout-out to Doublelift who has the least gold out of any ADC but is average in damage.
EXPENSIVE LUXURIES (high damage %, high gold %)
On the far right, Uzi takes up way more gold than anyone else on any team, but at least mostly justifies that investment. The same is true for Likkrit and CoreJJ on support, PvPStejos on jungle, and Hauntzer/Odoamne top.
CHEAP AND YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR (low damage %, low gold %)
xiaohu stands alone as far as mid laners with basically no gold invested into him, and he does exactly as you'd expect in terms of damage. Darshan is the same, with both the lowest gold % and damage %. (Yes, even less than Mouse.)
THROWING MONEY AWAY (low damage %, high gold %)
By contrast, Expect has the highest gold % out of any top laner but is fourth to last in terms of damage %. Chawy is similar though not quite as egregious. ClearLove is the richest jungler but only average damage-wise.
While I think your chart is interesting and a cool read, I feel the contrast you painted using mouse shows just how bad damage% suffers extraordinarily under small sample size(as a measurement of quality of play)
mouse had a 16.9% to darshan's 16.4 (curious if our math is the same) but I told you Darshan had 2 poppy games (pure tank) and 1 Gnar game (1 damage item tank) while Mouse played Poppy once(pure tank) while logging 2 games of a greedy double damage item Irelia it paints mouse's "lead" in an entirely different light.
Agreed. This chart assumes that you only care about funneling gold to players so that they can do damage. It completely ignores all other things that gold can do: help you tank, or fight for vision.
In that sense I think it is most useful for ADCs and Mids. Those roles have almost no excuse for spending their gold anywhere else.
It's very interesting to see the huge disparity among top laners. NA has both the most expensive top laner (Hauntzer) and the cheapest top laner (Darshan). Next most disparity is among ADCs. Other than chawy and xiaohu, Mid is very compressed, just like Jungle and Support.
BANG FOR THE BUCK (high damage %, low gold %)
The top/ADC outliers at the top of the graph are Ziv Deft. Right below them are Athena/Maple in mid lane. In the jungle, Bengi gets less gold than any other jungler but does pretty well for himself damage-wise. A special shout-out to Doublelift who has the least gold out of any ADC but is average in damage.
EXPENSIVE LUXURIES (high damage %, high gold %)
On the far right, Uzi takes up way more gold than anyone else on any team, but at least mostly justifies that investment. The same is true for Likkrit and CoreJJ on support, PvPStejos on jungle, and Hauntzer/Odoamne top.
CHEAP AND YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR (low damage %, low gold %)
xiaohu stands alone as far as mid laners with basically no gold invested into him, and he does exactly as you'd expect in terms of damage. Darshan is the same, with both the lowest gold % and damage %. (Yes, even less than Mouse.)
THROWING MONEY AWAY (low damage %, high gold %)
By contrast, Expect has the highest gold % out of any top laner but is fourth to last in terms of damage %. Chawy is similar though not quite as egregious. ClearLove is the richest jungler but only average damage-wise.
This is cool, but pretty worthless imo. They've played 3 games so far. Statistically speaking, you can't draw anything from this. I only, it'd be more interesting to see if and/or how damage share and gold share have changed for teams in comparison to their last 10 games. It would also be interesting to see damage share and gold share of the opposing laner; it could give us an idea if specific players warp their opponents gold share in a meaningful in game benefit. That said, I'd be far more interested to learn gold share by minute mark per team as that would give an idea of how teams try to distribute their power share.
Ok, for as weeb as it was, the animation was pretty solid. I had the audio muted though because holy shit I can only handle so much Sailor Moon, and the visuals were dripping with it.
This comp is gonna need some pretty precise play from CLG. No tank and not much engage. Graves/Viktor/Sivir can really rip through CLG if they misposition
On October 07 2016 09:24 GolemMadness wrote: This comp is gonna need some pretty precise play from CLG. No tank and not much engage. Graves/Viktor/Sivir can really rip through CLG if they misposition
It seems kinda bad to me to play such a delicate team comp on a high pressure day. If anything they could have played this first week. Nox is not a team that you can take lightly and you are in the middle of a 3 way tie to make it past groups.
On October 07 2016 09:51 lilwisper wrote: What I don't get is if CLG wanted to play a poke comp, isn't there like dozens of comps better than this?
trundle/elise/varus or jayce (but lol huhi)/lucian/nami
trundle top would have rounded out this poke comp so much better
huhi limits so many options because he's so bad.
jayce/elise/karma/lucian/braum would have been a bit more stable if we're just switching out 1 champ. gives a tankier support, blocks a shit ton of projectiles from anx comp, and lots of ways to proc stuns fast (jayce elise lucian)
Heh Rusty used exact same words as me to describe Perkz' performance. Would be surprised if he can recover but who knows what pressure falling off can do.
On October 07 2016 12:39 lilwisper wrote: A "wildcard" is the first to qualify. I am still letting that sink in.
I'm curious as to how, if at all, that will change Riot's plans for 2017. They were already giving World's seeds "dynamically" based on MSI performance, so I'm curious as to how they treat this
On October 07 2016 12:39 lilwisper wrote: A "wildcard" is the first to qualify. I am still letting that sink in.
I'm curious as to how, if at all, that will change Riot's plans for 2017. They were already giving World's seeds "dynamically" based on MSI performance, so I'm curious as to how they treat this
I wouldn't be surprised that in the future we have a 3rd wildcard team in Worlds.
On October 07 2016 12:39 lilwisper wrote: A "wildcard" is the first to qualify. I am still letting that sink in.
I'm curious as to how, if at all, that will change Riot's plans for 2017. They were already giving World's seeds "dynamically" based on MSI performance, so I'm curious as to how they treat this
I wouldn't be surprised that in the future we have a 3rd wildcard team in Worlds.
Was someone saying riot's chinese translator sucked? I'm watching the LPL stream and the girl doing the translations for the PvPStejos interview is actually super fluent in both english/chinese o_O
Just wanted to pop in to say, doesn't LS look like Michael Jackson? And not the normal, hot, black Michael Jackson. The white, dying, scary, womanly Michael Jackson... who practiced kissing with his monkey, Bubbles.
I think this draft is pretty good for CLG. Put Huhi on something pretty tough to mess up, Stixxay has Caitlyn, they have good engage and disengage, and some decent early pressure with Olaf.
On October 07 2016 14:06 plasmidghost wrote: I just realized CLG's mid was Malzahar, my third-most favorite hero when I quit playing in 2013, has there been any significant reworks to him?
Yes. His W is now part of his ult and his passive became his current W. His passive is a "shield" that will protect him from damage/CC for a short period of time.
On October 07 2016 14:06 plasmidghost wrote: I just realized CLG's mid was Malzahar, my third-most favorite hero when I quit playing in 2013, has there been any significant reworks to him?
Yes. His W is now part of his ult and his passive became his current W. His passive is a "shield" that will protect him from damage/CC for a short period of time.
On October 07 2016 14:06 plasmidghost wrote: I just realized CLG's mid was Malzahar, my third-most favorite hero when I quit playing in 2013, has there been any significant reworks to him?
Yes. His W is now part of his ult and his passive became his current W. His passive is a "shield" that will protect him from damage/CC for a short period of time.
I feel like Alistar has become the most underrated pick at world's. Going into this game, it was picked 11 times and won 9 of them, but it seems like people aren't really talking about him like he's a top pick
Huhi over extended and died losing CLG Baron and firedrake.
Game over man.
I wish CLG just played that slowly and reactively. If they had darshan continue bodying Smeb top they would have been golden. Late game on even footing Caitlyn was untouchable by ROX. That was their MSI comp, ROX couldn't do anything about Cait.
CLG just had to play a smarter comp against Nox and they would have made it. I don't feel sorry for them too much. I hope Nox runs rampant in the knockout stage.
On October 07 2016 15:15 Scip wrote: Im somewhat worried that ANX don't have the stamina to hold their own in a BO5
I think I really depends on which #1 they get. So long as they avoid a Korean team I think they're 45-55 at worst. RNG could be an issue too. I'd like to see ANX play a bit more normal and less gimmicks; or a least different cheese.
On October 07 2016 15:27 Kinie wrote: Were any of the last 3 games (before the tiebreaker) worth watching? Sounds like ANX beat ROX to force the tie breaker to begin with?
And I assume CLG just threw their game via poor draft choices (picking a comp for themselves that they don't know how to play)?
Yeah the Nox vs Rox that went over an hour is worth every second. Game of the year for me.
On October 07 2016 15:27 Kinie wrote: Were any of the last 3 games (before the tiebreaker) worth watching? Sounds like ANX beat ROX to force the tie breaker to begin with?
And I assume CLG just threw their game via poor draft choices (picking a comp for themselves that they don't know how to play)?
Huhi is an Aurelion Sol one-trick Aphro lost will to live Other 3 looked like they wanted to win, which was unfortunate.
Tiebreaker made it look like ROX didn't tryhard in normal matches, before that game I'd say there is no way they're going to win the whole thing but now I'm convinced that they were just hiding their "power level"
On October 07 2016 15:27 Kinie wrote: Were any of the last 3 games (before the tiebreaker) worth watching? Sounds like ANX beat ROX to force the tie breaker to begin with?
And I assume CLG just threw their game via poor draft choices (picking a comp for themselves that they don't know how to play)?
Huhi is an Aurelion Sol one-trick Aphro lost will to live Other 3 looked like they wanted to win, which was unfortunate.
Underrated storyline: Darshan totally non-impactful. Last game vs. Rox, no clutch wallbangs, just king of running around tanking and smashing Q.
On October 07 2016 15:27 Kinie wrote: Were any of the last 3 games (before the tiebreaker) worth watching? Sounds like ANX beat ROX to force the tie breaker to begin with?
And I assume CLG just threw their game via poor draft choices (picking a comp for themselves that they don't know how to play)?
Huhi is an Aurelion Sol one-trick Aphro lost will to live Other 3 looked like they wanted to win, which was unfortunate.
This has always been the case with CLG. Aphro is really good, but he chokes just as much as anyone else on that team. They always have mindset issues, and CLG hasn't fixed that issue since it's inception basically.
No idea how some CLG fans still keep defending Huhi though.
On October 08 2016 02:56 Sent. wrote: Tiebreaker made it look like ROX didn't tryhard in normal matches, before that game I'd say there is no way they're going to win the whole thing but now I'm convinced that they were just hiding their "power level"
This is nothing new with Korean teams. They don't go hard and play seriously unless they have to.
On October 08 2016 02:56 Sent. wrote: Tiebreaker made it look like ROX didn't tryhard in normal matches, before that game I'd say there is no way they're going to win the whole thing but now I'm convinced that they were just hiding their "power level"
I sincerely doubt it. CLG played pretty poorly. I was following the jungler cams and Stixxay is hugging the wrong side of the lane if he wants to push hard without getting flash cocooned when CLG didn't have any river vision. Just gets first blooded for free out of sloppiness. Aphro kept getting picked off like crazy, Huhi doing the same late game (what the hell is a Malz doing so far forward with inner towers down? with no vision and no teammates nearby? he kept doing it too, when the enemy team has moo cow. Really disrespectful.). And Aphromoo getting picked off so easily made the rest of CLG indecisive when it mattered (the 2nd dragon), so instead of challenging for dragon or getting a tower (at least mostly down) they got neither. And if he didn't get blown up instantly, they would probably still would have been even.
Aphromoo looked pretty lackluster on ranged supports in general and off his game. CLG just gave away so much for free for no reason at all.
H2K used their early lead to spend 10 minutes dancing around baron instead of taking inner towers and then they let support Karma steal it, this is embarassing
On October 08 2016 02:56 Sent. wrote: Tiebreaker made it look like ROX didn't tryhard in normal matches, before that game I'd say there is no way they're going to win the whole thing but now I'm convinced that they were just hiding their "power level"
This is nothing new with Korean teams. They don't go hard and play seriously unless they have to.
What a bs. ROX would be out if it wasnt for a huge throw from G2 and a 50/50 smite win.
On October 08 2016 09:56 Sent. wrote: H2K used their early lead to spend 10 minutes dancing around baron instead of taking inner towers and then they let support Karma steal it, this is embarassing
H2k played the baron setup very well. Fucking up blocking one Karma Q does not change that.
Mmmm I think I misunderstood the mystery gift stuff for baron steals and penta's. They don't give you a free mystery gift straight up, but only if you buy a mystery gift with RP?
On October 08 2016 10:10 Disengaged wrote: Mmmm I think I misunderstood the mystery gift stuff for baron steals and penta's. They don't give you a free mystery gift straight up, but only if you buy a mystery gift with RP?
It just gives you a higher chance of getting better stuff if you do get a mystery gift.
On October 08 2016 10:10 Disengaged wrote: Mmmm I think I misunderstood the mystery gift stuff for baron steals and penta's. They don't give you a free mystery gift straight up, but only if you buy a mystery gift with RP?
It just gives you a higher chance of getting better stuff if you do get a mystery gift.
On October 08 2016 11:24 Sent. wrote: I thought theyre already guaranteed to play in tiebreakers at least, even if they lose to INTZ they will still be 1-1 against each team
Yep. They've guaranteed tiebreaker's to get out at the very minimum.
On October 08 2016 02:56 Sent. wrote: Tiebreaker made it look like ROX didn't tryhard in normal matches, before that game I'd say there is no way they're going to win the whole thing but now I'm convinced that they were just hiding their "power level"
This is nothing new with Korean teams. They don't go hard and play seriously unless they have to.
What a bs. ROX would be out if it wasnt for a huge throw from G2 and a 50/50 smite win.
I think its a regional difference in what you value. Losing slowly like ROX did in the 2 games they lost, and clawing back a win like vs. G2 are much more highly correlated with future success (in OGN) than winning because of what happens pre-15-20 minutes.
Can someone explain to me what all the different dragons are like elder, ocean, infernal, etc., what buffs they give you, and how it's determined which order they spawm? The Leaguepedia page hasn't been updated since season 5
On October 08 2016 13:56 plasmidghost wrote: Can someone explain to me what all the different dragons are like elder, ocean, infernal, etc., what buffs they give you, and how it's determined which order they spawm? The Leaguepedia page hasn't been updated since season 5
On October 08 2016 13:56 plasmidghost wrote: Can someone explain to me what all the different dragons are like elder, ocean, infernal, etc., what buffs they give you, and how it's determined which order they spawm? The Leaguepedia page hasn't been updated since season 5
On October 08 2016 14:09 Amui wrote: The GA's were really a waste of an item slot. With the comp AHQ had, they die once, then they die twice.
This so much.
AHQ played so bad as whole.
Why teamfight with a splitpush comp against a teamfight comp?
AN getting GA was pointless; it's not like you'll be staying around to lifesteal back once you revive.
Mountain getting baited in again and again by anyone not Deft/Meiko and getting smashed because he used his skills to initiate and can't get out.
Ziv wasting his advantage and the opportunity to take bot inhib when Mouse TPed to Baron and chose to TP in too and AHQ just gets smashed in the teamfight.
Westdoor got some good picks but poor positioning in teamfights. Also for the love of TFs just split push instead of looking for a pick/fight everytime. I actually thought the ulti top to escape and netting AHQ the sivir ult and mid turret was well worth but they look to fight everytime why T_T.
Albis probably had the least mistakes but not much he can do as a support.
On October 08 2016 13:56 plasmidghost wrote: Can someone explain to me what all the different dragons are like elder, ocean, infernal, etc., what buffs they give you, and how it's determined which order they spawm? The Leaguepedia page hasn't been updated since season 5
So what's Mouse's deal? Was he a good laneswap player or something? I didn't watch LPL but surely they didn't go 18-0 with Mouse being so bad. If he was a good laneswap player, it's kinda bs that the meta change fucked EDG and there's nothing they could really do about it
I feel like LPL just isn't very good. Seems like every year they come to the world stage and every year they do poorly. At least since the Korean exodus.
On October 08 2016 18:29 Numy wrote: I feel like LPL just isn't very good. Seems like every year they come to the world stage and every year they do poorly. At least since the Korean exodus.
except for MSI 2015. also royal looked really good last week so we'll see how this week goes
On October 08 2016 18:29 Numy wrote: I feel like LPL just isn't very good. Seems like every year they come to the world stage and every year they do poorly. At least since the Korean exodus.
except for MSI 2015. also royal looked really good last week so we'll see how this week goes
They didn't look really good overall. To be fair no team has looked really good in all their games so far.
Also yay finally H2K didn't choke when it mattered. I can't believe it actually happened even if it was in such a bad group.
On October 08 2016 18:29 Numy wrote: I feel like LPL just isn't very good. Seems like every year they come to the world stage and every year they do poorly. At least since the Korean exodus.
except for MSI 2015. also royal looked really good last week so we'll see how this week goes
Royal only looked really good in one game and MSI 2015 from what I recall wasn't the greatest showing. EDG barely scraped a win off a struggling SKT that threw 2 games running the Hoon instead of Faker only to manage to pull out a rather clever strat to deal with game 5 LB pick. I guess at the end of the day I'll give them props for MSI. It was vintage Pawn lol.
Just need to face reality imo. If you not part of LCK then well you're not good at league! :D
On October 08 2016 16:46 MattBarry wrote: So what's Mouse's deal? Was he a good laneswap player or something? I didn't watch LPL but surely they didn't go 18-0 with Mouse being so bad. If he was a good laneswap player, it's kinda bs that the meta change fucked EDG and there's nothing they could really do about it
Yeah lane swap made s huge difference. You can't lose to an early gank top if your top laner spends levels 1-4 grouped with support adc and jungle pushing down towers. And now carry tops are rewarded but previously in lane swap meta tank tops did well. If you take maokai you are not going to die in lane because maokai. And tank ecko is not dieing a lot either.
Mouse used to play a pretty good Maokai and Gangplank, but between meta and nerfs I suppose Gangplank doesn't fit into the current compositions. Dont really understand why they haven't went for Maokai in some of the games (instead of Poppy for instance).
edit: dont remember the exact compositions in his Poppy games, but picking a tank with more or less the same role which he has shown to play really really well seems a bit odd.
On October 09 2016 06:09 Kinie wrote: I feel like the issue was it was a very mid-game focused comp that lost a mid-game fight, lost Baron, and then got out-scaled.
All tsm had to do was pick an adc with good range that works with karma+zilean like trist/caitlyn and they woulve've easily won.
On October 09 2016 06:06 chipmonklord17 wrote: So who here is hoping for TSM dropping to Samsung, Samsung dropping to RNG, and RNG dropping to TSM for the full 4-2, 1-1 splits
I'd settle for the "everyone goes 1-2" but splyce who goes 3-0 option at this point as well
isnt vlad vs syndra suicide ? i remember before rework this matchup was impossible cant imagine its different now with less sustain and syndra being even stronger
On October 09 2016 07:28 kongoline wrote: isnt vlad vs syndra suicide ? i remember before rework this matchup was impossible cant imagine its different now with less sustain and syndra being even stronger
On October 09 2016 07:16 dsyxelic wrote: go splyce, secure that quarters for ssg
Nah guys, embrace the tiebreakers, Splyce needs to win here and beat SSG, RNG beats SSG, TSM beats RNG and we go into tiebreak city
pls im tired of tiebreaks
On October 09 2016 07:28 kongoline wrote: isnt vlad vs syndra suicide ? i remember before rework this matchup was impossible cant imagine its different now with less sustain and syndra being even stronger
vlad is actually a popular counterpick into syndra in this meta
On October 09 2016 10:02 Sent. wrote: Is it just Quikshot or do people really think this year's TSM is a bigger "Western hope" than last year's Fnatic?
in NA they do. people having been hyping this dream team all year long
On October 09 2016 10:02 Sent. wrote: Is it just Quikshot or do people really think this year's TSM is a bigger "Western hope" than last year's Fnatic?
Just quickshot but of course they have to hype up the most popular org for NA
Ok seriously how TSM gave away this baron and then decided to "contest" afterwards with 3 was one of the worst macro decisions I have seen at this tournament.
On October 09 2016 10:02 Sent. wrote: Is it just Quikshot or do people really think this year's TSM is a bigger "Western hope" than last year's Fnatic?
Just quickshot but of course they have to hype up the most popular org for NA
Fnatic was a far better "Western Hope" by far
Actually I have read that quite frequently on reddit fwiw.
Pretty sure Bjergsen could have killed them all when RNG blew everything on Sven and whiffed Spacedrake's+Nami ults. He could just have thrown one E, walk back until E was up again and trigger the E spread and then kaboom goodbye RNG. The AoE Ryze and Jayce could have thrown out in that choke would have been disgusting.
Well, there goes me hyping TSM ever again. This had to be one of their best iterations yet and still they fall flat. I have to say this group was quite tough though.
Just a few bad decisions early game cost them so badly. Gold lead was never that overbearing, but Hauntzer really can't do anything on that jayce pick.
On October 09 2016 10:28 Poopi wrote: Yeah overhyped TSM can't even qualify into bracket :o. Worlds without fnatic S5 truly are a waste of time for foreigners. Gratz RNG
Doublelift had a mediocre game, I don't think Lucian was the right pick after Uzi picked Ezreal+Nami for the lane domination. Aurelion Sol also wrecked TSM's initiation attempts, and Looper played lineman on the Poppy to stop TSM's limited initiation. Bjerg couldn't carry hard enough. The pick/ban phase from TSM was also questionable, why ban Caitlyn when you can just force RNG to pick between Sol vs. Caitlyn on first pick. I also don't agree with Jayce pick, especially in first phase.
Honestly, this group was super hard and other than Splyce, any team could've won, it just ended up being that Samsung and RNG showed up and TSM didn't.
On October 09 2016 10:26 chipmonklord17 wrote: Bjerg with the strange ult to end the game
His ults were really strange all game and not very impactful. He ulted to mid lane after escaping them when they were trying to pick him off when there wasn't any point to doing so (he could have walked back nearly as quickly???), so when Haunterz pushes bottom they're like "thanks for the free baron." Really weird play all game.
The same fucking thing happened as last year. NA does well week 1 but disappoints in week 2. It's like the entire region just goes on vacation in between the two weeks and doesn't prepare like the other teams do.
This game was lost starting from pick/ban. You know RNG is going to funnel everything they have into Uzi. You can't let their mid pick Aurelion Sol and protect him. And when he picks Ezreal/Nami you need a gameplan to shut him down. They had no plan. They instead first picked Jayce - has any Jayce been impactful so far in Worlds?
On October 09 2016 10:28 Poopi wrote: Yeah overhyped TSM can't even qualify into bracket :o. Worlds without fnatic S5 truly are a waste of time for foreigners. Gratz RNG
ANX ANX ANX
The russians have a shot against KR? I don't know any of their players, do they play on EU East? If so how come they were able to qualify... EU West disappointing as expected, H2K gives an illusion of hope with onFire Ryu but it won't last.
On October 09 2016 10:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: Has any Jayce been impactful so far in Worlds?
As near as I can tell, no. But that's because every team that's tried to pick Jayce and do a heavy poke/siege comp gets blasted in the early game and can't snowball their team comp into mid game and shove the enemy team off turrets because the other team gets Elise/Lee/Rek'Sai and dive Jayce hardcore.
On October 09 2016 10:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: The same fucking thing happened as last year. NA does well week 1 but disappoints in week 2. It's like the entire region just goes on vacation in between the two weeks and doesn't prepare like the other teams do.
This game was lost starting from pick/ban. You know RNG is going to funnel everything they have into Uzi. You can't let their mid pick Aurelion Sol and protect him. And when he picks Ezreal/Nami you need a gameplan to shut him down. They had no plan.
Na spends all the downtime before worlds just to find one good comp (per team) and then they forget people adjust.
On October 09 2016 10:30 Kinie wrote: Doublelift had a mediocre game, I don't think Lucian was the right pick after Uzi picked Ezreal+Nami for the lane domination. Aurelion Sol also wrecked TSM's initiation attempts, and Looper played lineman on the Poppy to stop TSM's limited initiation. Bjerg couldn't carry hard enough. The pick/ban phase from TSM was also questionable, why ban Caitlyn when you can just force RNG to pick between Sol vs. Caitlyn on first pick. I also don't agree with Jayce pick, especially in first phase.
Honestly, this group was super hard and other than Splyce, any team could've won, it just ended up being that Samsung and RNG showed up and TSM didn't.
This. I mean you see they have sol (you ban this all the time but not in your most important game, that's another disscussion). Why not have an ad with range? DL can play ashe trust fairly well. I know that triple was the big factor but still.
On October 09 2016 10:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: The same fucking thing happened as last year. NA does well week 1 but disappoints in week 2. It's like the entire region just goes on vacation in between the two weeks and doesn't prepare like the other teams do.
This game was lost starting from pick/ban. You know RNG is going to funnel everything they have into Uzi. You can't let their mid pick Aurelion Sol and protect him. And when he picks Ezreal/Nami you need a gameplan to shut him down. They had no plan.
Na spends all the downtime before worlds just to find one good comp (per team) and then they forget people adjust.
In all seriousness, can all just be normal statistical variance.
Reggie was the coach for TSM, right? Get someone else to do pick/pan, this whole Worlds TSM's pick/ban has been questionable at best, and out-right bad at worst.
On October 09 2016 10:37 Sent. wrote: Cait and Jhin were banned and I wouldn't trust Doublelift's Jinx, he had to pick Lucian
Cait was banned by TSM, why do that? Force RNG to pick between Sol or Caitlyn, or hell, do the exact same thing RNG did and have TSM get Zyra + Cait in first rotation on TSM's side if RNG does first pick Aurelion Sol and just body RNG's bot lane, because they would probably default to Ezreal + Nami, and we saw how one-sided that matchup is.
On October 09 2016 10:38 Kinie wrote: Reggie was the coach for TSM, right? Get someone else to do pick/pan, this whole Worlds TSM's pick/ban has been questionable at best, and out-right bad at worst.
On October 09 2016 10:38 Kinie wrote: Reggie was the coach for TSM, right? Get someone else to do pick/pan, this whole Worlds TSM's pick/ban has been questionable at best, and out-right bad at worst.
It's like NA dumps its identity at the worse times. CLG did it on Thursday vs Nox. What the hell was that comp? And today tsm leaves sol up who they have been allergic to since the champ came out. Bjerg was auto pausing the second the game starts.
I hope the TSM roster sticks together. They all seem pretty capable, and they seem to mesh well. I think they'll get better next split if they keep training like this. Maybe they'll burn out though. :/
Everything about LS is annoying but I actually like listening to him when I'm in a good mood because sometimes he brings up interesting things while LCS casters tend to repeat the same shit which gets boring after a while.
On October 09 2016 10:38 Kinie wrote: Reggie was the coach for TSM, right? Get someone else to do pick/pan, this whole Worlds TSM's pick/ban has been questionable at best, and out-right bad at worst.
Parth was coach.
Then what made them focus on banning Syndra (Bjerg's best champ so far this tourney) and Caitlyn (a strong ADC) on red side and leave up Aurelion Sol? Were they thinking RNG wouldn't first pick it and then take it + Braum on red side first rotation?
Again, this whole tourney TSM's pick/ban has been very suspect.
The core players I think are fine and should stick together for another year, but there has to be some sort of change (once again) in coaching staff, whether it's who does pick/ban, or getting the players to know how to pick up these new champions and how to play against them (whether that's laning phase, team fighting, or identifying lane counters).
Again, group D was the group of death, 100%. TSM got the hardest draw out of any #1 team of their region and it showed; they went 1-1 vs. Samsung, 0-2 vs. RNG, and beat up on Splyce twice. And both of the losses to RNG were arguably losses due to pick/ban.
On October 09 2016 10:45 Sent. wrote: Yeah I totally agree that TSM's pick ban was suboptimal but after Ezreal was locked in they had no choice but to pick Lucian.
Is that due to DL not having another good ADC, or just TSM feeling that there isn't any other ADC worth playing right now, with top 4 being Jhin > Ezreal = Caitlyn > Lucian?
What about Ashe, or Sivir? We've seen Sivir do a fair bit in the groups stage so far. If DL picked Sivir they could probably do better in lane phase and then in team fights if DL gets a lucky ricochet crit RNG's pack line gets decimated.
Now just need skt fw and imay to run a train on c9
Honestly at this point NA should have its 3rd spot dropped and give it to either IWC or the FW/AHQ league. NA does nothing with it.
It's an issue of NA being big fish in little pond for top 3 teams and not fostering any sort of growth out of the region. Compare that to Korea where the top 3-5 teams could go to Worlds and compete for the title, and China constantly sending EDG and RNG to throw down with the Koreans to see if they can finally compete. EU was able to compete until G2 decided to pull an NA and just dumpster everyone in their region and then not show up for Worlds.
I believe Flash Wolves can 3-0 tomorrow and take 2nd place in the group
vs IMay: They have to play against a sub support because Road is suspended. vs. C9: Ban out Meteos jungles and camp the shit out of Jensen mid vs. SKT: 4-0 track record and SKT's kryptonite
On October 09 2016 10:38 Kinie wrote: Reggie was the coach for TSM, right? Get someone else to do pick/pan, this whole Worlds TSM's pick/ban has been questionable at best, and out-right bad at worst.
Parth was coach.
Then what made them focus on banning Syndra (Bjerg's best champ so far this tourney) and Caitlyn (a strong ADC) on red side and leave up Aurelion Sol? Were they thinking RNG wouldn't first pick it and then take it + Braum on red side first rotation?
Again, this whole tourney TSM's pick/ban has been very suspect.
The core players I think are fine and should stick together for another year, but there has to be some sort of change (once again) in coaching staff, whether it's who does pick/ban, or getting the players to know how to pick up these new champions and how to play against them (whether that's laning phase, team fighting, or identifying lane counters).
Again, group D was the group of death, 100%. TSM got the hardest draw out of any #1 team of their region and it showed; they went 1-1 vs. Samsung, 0-2 vs. RNG, and beat up on Splyce twice. And both of the losses to RNG were arguably losses due to pick/ban.
On October 09 2016 10:45 Sent. wrote: Yeah I totally agree that TSM's pick ban was suboptimal but after Ezreal was locked in they had no choice but to pick Lucian.
Is that due to DL not having another good ADC, or just TSM feeling that there isn't any other ADC worth playing right now, with top 4 being Jhin > Ezreal = Caitlyn > Lucian?
What about Ashe, or Sivir? We've seen Sivir do a fair bit in the groups stage so far. If DL picked Sivir they could probably do better in lane phase and then in team fights if DL gets a lucky ricochet crit RNG's pack line gets decimated.
First brick gold makes getting dumpstered in lane a big problem, prolly afraid to pick sivir into nami. I mean it's uzi if you pick a weak lane he will punish you.
On October 09 2016 10:38 Kinie wrote: Reggie was the coach for TSM, right? Get someone else to do pick/pan, this whole Worlds TSM's pick/ban has been questionable at best, and out-right bad at worst.
Parth was coach.
Then what made them focus on banning Syndra (Bjerg's best champ so far this tourney) and Caitlyn (a strong ADC) on red side and leave up Aurelion Sol? Were they thinking RNG wouldn't first pick it and then take it + Braum on red side first rotation?
Again, this whole tourney TSM's pick/ban has been very suspect.
The core players I think are fine and should stick together for another year, but there has to be some sort of change (once again) in coaching staff, whether it's who does pick/ban, or getting the players to know how to pick up these new champions and how to play against them (whether that's laning phase, team fighting, or identifying lane counters).
Again, group D was the group of death, 100%. TSM got the hardest draw out of any #1 team of their region and it showed; they went 1-1 vs. Samsung, 0-2 vs. RNG, and beat up on Splyce twice. And both of the losses to RNG were arguably losses due to pick/ban.
On October 09 2016 10:45 Sent. wrote: Yeah I totally agree that TSM's pick ban was suboptimal but after Ezreal was locked in they had no choice but to pick Lucian.
Is that due to DL not having another good ADC, or just TSM feeling that there isn't any other ADC worth playing right now, with top 4 being Jhin > Ezreal = Caitlyn > Lucian?
What about Ashe, or Sivir? We've seen Sivir do a fair bit in the groups stage so far. If DL picked Sivir they could probably do better in lane phase and then in team fights if DL gets a lucky ricochet crit RNG's pack line gets decimated.
He used to play Ashe and Sivir and I don't remember him being particularly bad on those two but that was long time ago so maybe it's different now. Sivir would be a good pick but I think they picked Lucian because A) Doublelift insisted or B) they didn't trust him to play something without an escape.
Now just need skt fw and imay to run a train on c9
Honestly at this point NA should have its 3rd spot dropped and give it to either IWC or the FW/AHQ league. NA does nothing with it.
Should take away Europe's #1 and #3 seeds while you're at it and give them to Russia, Brazil, and Turkey. They'd probably do something with them.
Think historically...
I mean one team doing well doesn't particularly offset the rest of Europe as a region. And a third of league history had the awful format of regional champions playing 0 games when everyone else had played 8. Anyways, Europe sucks right now so that's all that really matters. You got one team slipping through and a European team masquerading as a wild card doing something (I'm sure Teamliquid would love the chance to do that- oops too late they imploded as a team).
On October 09 2016 10:38 Kinie wrote: Reggie was the coach for TSM, right? Get someone else to do pick/pan, this whole Worlds TSM's pick/ban has been questionable at best, and out-right bad at worst.
Parth was coach.
Then what made them focus on banning Syndra (Bjerg's best champ so far this tourney) and Caitlyn (a strong ADC) on red side and leave up Aurelion Sol? Were they thinking RNG wouldn't first pick it and then take it + Braum on red side first rotation?
Again, this whole tourney TSM's pick/ban has been very suspect.
The core players I think are fine and should stick together for another year, but there has to be some sort of change (once again) in coaching staff, whether it's who does pick/ban, or getting the players to know how to pick up these new champions and how to play against them (whether that's laning phase, team fighting, or identifying lane counters).
Again, group D was the group of death, 100%. TSM got the hardest draw out of any #1 team of their region and it showed; they went 1-1 vs. Samsung, 0-2 vs. RNG, and beat up on Splyce twice. And both of the losses to RNG were arguably losses due to pick/ban.
On October 09 2016 10:45 Sent. wrote: Yeah I totally agree that TSM's pick ban was suboptimal but after Ezreal was locked in they had no choice but to pick Lucian.
Is that due to DL not having another good ADC, or just TSM feeling that there isn't any other ADC worth playing right now, with top 4 being Jhin > Ezreal = Caitlyn > Lucian?
What about Ashe, or Sivir? We've seen Sivir do a fair bit in the groups stage so far. If DL picked Sivir they could probably do better in lane phase and then in team fights if DL gets a lucky ricochet crit RNG's pack line gets decimated.
First brick gold makes getting dumpstered in lane a big problem, prolly afraid to pick sivir into nami. I mean it's uzi if you pick a weak lane he will punish you.
First brick gold is the dumbest thing Riot's done to competitive in a long time.
There's also the issue that the junglers in the Worlds meta are really strong early lane junglers who can farm fast and engage in the 3 or 4 man dives on top, mid, or bot. Once lane phase ends they fall out of relevancy and just devolve into front liners with minor pick potential (or you're Lee Sin and are relying on an Insec kick to win your team the fight).
I thought Sivir + Braum goes equal with Ezreal + Nami because of spell shield, and that it's just reliant on your jungler and support to provide enough vision outside of bot lane to give fair warning of an impending dive.
I would love to see Bjergsen and Forgiven on a korean team with a (some?) english speaking koreans. Bjergsen has hit a wall in terms of team success and Forgiven is someone who is not only great (in the west) but doesn't seem he'd mind the korean way of training. Weren't Forgiven and Froggen rumored to being looked at to be imported to Korea at one point? Regardless of their results I think it'd be fun to see something like this.
On October 09 2016 11:48 Ethelis wrote: I would love to see Bjergsen and Forgiven on a korean team with a (some?) english speaking koreans. Bjergsen has hit a wall in terms of team success and Forgiven is someone who is not only great (in the west) but doesn't seem he'd mind the korean way of training. Weren't Forgiven and Froggen rumored to being looked at to be imported to Korea at one point? Regardless of their results I think it'd be fun to see something like this.
Forgiven is just as overrated as doublelift. No idea where that forgiven hype comes from.
On October 09 2016 10:28 Poopi wrote: Yeah overhyped TSM can't even qualify into bracket :o. Worlds without fnatic S5 truly are a waste of time for foreigners. Gratz RNG
ANX ANX ANX
The russians have a shot against KR? I don't know any of their players, do they play on EU East? If so how come they were able to qualify... EU West disappointing as expected, H2K gives an illusion of hope with onFire Ryu but it won't last.
They've beaten ROX Tigers already in one of the tournament's best games in my opinion. I think a large part of their succes is just how unpredictable they are, which makes their games so much more fun to watch.
On October 09 2016 10:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: The same fucking thing happened as last year. NA does well week 1 but disappoints in week 2. It's like the entire region just goes on vacation in between the two weeks and doesn't prepare like the other teams do.
This game was lost starting from pick/ban. You know RNG is going to funnel everything they have into Uzi. You can't let their mid pick Aurelion Sol and protect him. And when he picks Ezreal/Nami you need a gameplan to shut him down. They had no plan. They instead first picked Jayce - has any Jayce been impactful so far in Worlds?
Jayce top is a classic Scrim Hero champ. He gets massive CS leads because he forces backs with ranged W and can't get engaged on 1v1 by melees because of his knock away. However, he is basically a poke champion at heart, which makes him a stupid TP carrier.
This TSM vs. RNG game demonstrates the problem to a T. On the first baron Haunter was pushing botlane and ended up taking 2 towers without TPing as RNG gets baron. But what if he did TP? He has to TP 15 seconds before the fight because you want to get off at least 2 QEs before you fight.
Edit:
Also RiotPls delete Aurelion Sol. Nothing worse than a noskill champ being must ban.
On October 09 2016 10:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: The same fucking thing happened as last year. NA does well week 1 but disappoints in week 2. It's like the entire region just goes on vacation in between the two weeks and doesn't prepare like the other teams do.
This game was lost starting from pick/ban. You know RNG is going to funnel everything they have into Uzi. You can't let their mid pick Aurelion Sol and protect him. And when he picks Ezreal/Nami you need a gameplan to shut him down. They had no plan. They instead first picked Jayce - has any Jayce been impactful so far in Worlds?
Jayce top is a classic Scrim Hero champ. He gets massive CS leads because he forces backs with ranged W and can't get engaged on 1v1 by melees because of his knock away. However, he is basically a poke champion at heart, which makes him a stupid TP carrier.
This TSM vs. RNG game demonstrates the problem to a T. On the first baron Haunter was pushing botlane and ended up taking 2 towers without TPing as RNG gets baron. But what if he did TP? He has to TP 15 seconds before the fight because you want to get off at least 2 QEs before you fight.
Edit:
Also RiotPls delete Aurelion Sol. Nothing worse than a noskill champ being must ban.
perhaps next year.
its a slight improvement on mordekaiser from last year. darius was quite stupid as well in terms of no skill.
edit:
on another note, this is the weakest #1 seed teams have looked at worlds
rox - closed out strong but their group stage was far from stable g2 - no explanation needed fw - currently 1-2, not looking too good for them tsm - eliminated
edit: edg - 2nd to eu's 2nd seed with a game lost to last place WC
On October 09 2016 10:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: The same fucking thing happened as last year. NA does well week 1 but disappoints in week 2. It's like the entire region just goes on vacation in between the two weeks and doesn't prepare like the other teams do.
This game was lost starting from pick/ban. You know RNG is going to funnel everything they have into Uzi. You can't let their mid pick Aurelion Sol and protect him. And when he picks Ezreal/Nami you need a gameplan to shut him down. They had no plan. They instead first picked Jayce - has any Jayce been impactful so far in Worlds?
Jayce top is a classic Scrim Hero champ. He gets massive CS leads because he forces backs with ranged W and can't get engaged on 1v1 by melees because of his knock away. However, he is basically a poke champion at heart, which makes him a stupid TP carrier.
This TSM vs. RNG game demonstrates the problem to a T. On the first baron Haunter was pushing botlane and ended up taking 2 towers without TPing as RNG gets baron. But what if he did TP? He has to TP 15 seconds before the fight because you want to get off at least 2 QEs before you fight.
Edit:
Also RiotPls delete Aurelion Sol. Nothing worse than a noskill champ being must ban.
perhaps next year.
its a slight improvement on mordekaiser from last year. darius was quite stupid as well in terms of no skill.
edit:
on another note, this is the weakest #1 seed teams have looked at worlds
rox - closed out strong but their group stage was far from stable g2 - no explanation needed fw - currently 1-2, not looking too good for them tsm - eliminated
To be fair, this is also a year where the #1 and #2 seeds aren't that far away in skill. The last two years gave us SSW who could only lose to themselves and SSB and the super contender SKT. There hasn't been a super dominant team in Korea; SKT was strong but in decline and Rox kept falling off towards end of season. KT was the best team end of summer but lost to Rox and SSG but a hair. In EU and NA the #1/#2 difference hasn't been what the records have suggested. I haven't followed Taiwan/China this year to talk about those differences reasonably, but coming into worlds there were obvious flaws for each team. Then NA has this tendency to do random and terrible P/B that put them super behind.
On October 09 2016 10:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: The same fucking thing happened as last year. NA does well week 1 but disappoints in week 2. It's like the entire region just goes on vacation in between the two weeks and doesn't prepare like the other teams do.
This game was lost starting from pick/ban. You know RNG is going to funnel everything they have into Uzi. You can't let their mid pick Aurelion Sol and protect him. And when he picks Ezreal/Nami you need a gameplan to shut him down. They had no plan. They instead first picked Jayce - has any Jayce been impactful so far in Worlds?
Jayce top is a classic Scrim Hero champ. He gets massive CS leads because he forces backs with ranged W and can't get engaged on 1v1 by melees because of his knock away. However, he is basically a poke champion at heart, which makes him a stupid TP carrier.
This TSM vs. RNG game demonstrates the problem to a T. On the first baron Haunter was pushing botlane and ended up taking 2 towers without TPing as RNG gets baron. But what if he did TP? He has to TP 15 seconds before the fight because you want to get off at least 2 QEs before you fight.
Edit:
Also RiotPls delete Aurelion Sol. Nothing worse than a noskill champ being must ban.
perhaps next year.
its a slight improvement on mordekaiser from last year. darius was quite stupid as well in terms of no skill.
edit:
on another note, this is the weakest #1 seed teams have looked at worlds
rox - closed out strong but their group stage was far from stable g2 - no explanation needed fw - currently 1-2, not looking too good for them tsm - eliminated
To be fair, this is also a year where the #1 and #2 seeds aren't that far away in skill. The last two years gave us SSW who could only lose to themselves and SSB and the super contender SKT. There hasn't been a super dominant team in Korea; SKT was strong but in decline and Rox kept falling off towards end of season. KT was the best team end of summer but lost to Rox and SSG but a hair. In EU and NA the #1/#2 difference hasn't been what the records have suggested. I haven't followed Taiwan/China this year to talk about those differences reasonably, but coming into worlds there were obvious flaws for each team. Then NA has this tendency to do random and terrible P/B that put them super behind.
In terms of China it was pretty clear that #1 was EDG right from the start of summer split, and it was a 3 man competition between RNG, Snake, and WE for who would be #2 and the supposed #3. I-May just spiked hard core at the end in the gauntlet and upset Snake and WE for the last slot, while RNG got in on circuit points thanks to two solid finishes in spring and summer splits.
SKT, KT, SSG, and ROX were all top 4 teams in Korea, with a pretty decent drop-off after those four. EU was just G2 stomping fools because of literal 0 competition, and NA had a similar problem of once the top 3 teams were decided (TSM, CLG, C9) the drop-off to the last 7 teams was so massive that the top 3 could only get better by scrimming each other, which can only get you so far.
Right now I'd argue that, in terms of overall league strength, it's Korea > China = NA > EU, with LMS and LCL probably in the nebulous area of, "better than EU but worse than NA." And sure, you might think me crazy for thinking that China's top teams are about as equal as the top NA teams, but this group stage so far makes me think that - in an ideal world where both regions have their teams in good health, good cooperation, good pick/ban and a good read on the meta (all things that can vary WILDLY) - the skill level of the players is about equal and we would probably see a lot of trading of games back and forth.
That sounds harsh, but in prior years it used to be Korea >>>>> China >>> NA = EU, with LMS and LCL also in that nebulous area of, "about as equal to NA and EU." The gap has closed, but now we have to see if the infrastructure put into place in TSM, C9, and CLG holds in the off-season, and if other teams start to pick it up and have it's players focus more on scrim/practice schedule and less on streaming.
Every year it's the exact same thing. You always hear about people ignoring history but often think that's just history before they were born. Nope. League of Legends show people will ignore the very history they witnessed time after time. It's incredible.
On October 09 2016 10:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: The same fucking thing happened as last year. NA does well week 1 but disappoints in week 2. It's like the entire region just goes on vacation in between the two weeks and doesn't prepare like the other teams do.
This game was lost starting from pick/ban. You know RNG is going to funnel everything they have into Uzi. You can't let their mid pick Aurelion Sol and protect him. And when he picks Ezreal/Nami you need a gameplan to shut him down. They had no plan. They instead first picked Jayce - has any Jayce been impactful so far in Worlds?
Jayce top is a classic Scrim Hero champ. He gets massive CS leads because he forces backs with ranged W and can't get engaged on 1v1 by melees because of his knock away. However, he is basically a poke champion at heart, which makes him a stupid TP carrier.
This TSM vs. RNG game demonstrates the problem to a T. On the first baron Haunter was pushing botlane and ended up taking 2 towers without TPing as RNG gets baron. But what if he did TP? He has to TP 15 seconds before the fight because you want to get off at least 2 QEs before you fight.
Edit:
Also RiotPls delete Aurelion Sol. Nothing worse than a noskill champ being must ban.
perhaps next year.
its a slight improvement on mordekaiser from last year. darius was quite stupid as well in terms of no skill.
edit:
on another note, this is the weakest #1 seed teams have looked at worlds
rox - closed out strong but their group stage was far from stable g2 - no explanation needed fw - currently 1-2, not looking too good for them tsm - eliminated
To be fair, this is also a year where the #1 and #2 seeds aren't that far away in skill. The last two years gave us SSW who could only lose to themselves and SSB and the super contender SKT. There hasn't been a super dominant team in Korea; SKT was strong but in decline and Rox kept falling off towards end of season. KT was the best team end of summer but lost to Rox and SSG but a hair. In EU and NA the #1/#2 difference hasn't been what the records have suggested. I haven't followed Taiwan/China this year to talk about those differences reasonably, but coming into worlds there were obvious flaws for each team. Then NA has this tendency to do random and terrible P/B that put them super behind.
In terms of China it was pretty clear that #1 was EDG right from the start of summer split, and it was a 3 man competition between RNG, Snake, and WE for who would be #2 and the supposed #3. I-May just spiked hard core at the end in the gauntlet and upset Snake and WE for the last slot, while RNG got in on circuit points thanks to two solid finishes in spring and summer splits.
SKT, KT, SSG, and ROX were all top 4 teams in Korea, with a pretty decent drop-off after those four. EU was just G2 stomping fools because of literal 0 competition, and NA had a similar problem of once the top 3 teams were decided (TSM, CLG, C9) the drop-off to the last 7 teams was so massive that the top 3 could only get better by scrimming each other, which can only get you so far.
Right now I'd argue that, in terms of overall league strength, it's Korea > China = NA > EU, with LMS and LCL probably in the nebulous area of, "better than EU but worse than NA." And sure, you might think me crazy for thinking that China's top teams are about as equal as the top NA teams, but this group stage so far makes me think that - in an ideal world where both regions have their teams in good health, good cooperation, good pick/ban and a good read on the meta (all things that can vary WILDLY) - the skill level of the players is about equal and we would probably see a lot of trading of games back and forth.
That sounds harsh, but in prior years it used to be Korea >>>>> China >>> NA = EU, with LMS and LCL also in that nebulous area of, "about as equal to NA and EU." The gap has closed, but now we have to see if the infrastructure put into place in TSM, C9, and CLG holds in the off-season, and if other teams start to pick it up and have it's players focus more on scrim/practice schedule and less on streaming.
Its TSM
Gap
IMT/CLG/C9
Gap
The rest
I don't want to said it but RNG get stomped 3 times by Samsung twice and splyce, at least tsm has close games.
On October 09 2016 11:48 Ethelis wrote: I would love to see Bjergsen and Forgiven on a korean team with a (some?) english speaking koreans. Bjergsen has hit a wall in terms of team success and Forgiven is someone who is not only great (in the west) but doesn't seem he'd mind the korean way of training. Weren't Forgiven and Froggen rumored to being looked at to be imported to Korea at one point? Regardless of their results I think it'd be fun to see something like this.
Forgiven is just as overrated as doublelift. No idea where that forgiven hype comes from.
Same reason as Doublelift, "personality". Constantly involved in Twitter drama, gives spicy interviews etc. And with Forgiven you get the "edgy" bonus because he was supposed to be toxic which the kids love. Then you have players like Stixxay and others who are probably more effective in game but noone cares about them because they just play. Imo its kinda sad.
I hope for next year's worlds they just have an extra season of LCK... Worlds is supposed to be the highest level of League of Legends, and other regions are simply far inferior to Korea.
On October 10 2016 00:09 Kyo Yuy wrote: I hope for next year's worlds they just have an extra season of LCK... Worlds is supposed to be the highest level of League of Legends, and other regions are simply far inferior to Korea.
ROX couldn't even 6-0 his group, doesn't look dominant at all. I wish one region could just 18-0 even tho it's bo1.
On October 09 2016 11:48 Ethelis wrote: I would love to see Bjergsen and Forgiven on a korean team with a (some?) english speaking koreans. Bjergsen has hit a wall in terms of team success and Forgiven is someone who is not only great (in the west) but doesn't seem he'd mind the korean way of training. Weren't Forgiven and Froggen rumored to being looked at to be imported to Korea at one point? Regardless of their results I think it'd be fun to see something like this.
Forgiven is just as overrated as doublelift. No idea where that forgiven hype comes from.
Same reason as Doublelift, "personality". Constantly involved in Twitter drama, gives spicy interviews etc. And with Forgiven you get the "edgy" bonus because he was supposed to be toxic which the kids love. Then you have players like Stixxay and others who are probably more effective in game but noone cares about them because they just play. Imo its kinda sad.
Stixxay is considered boring for a reason and its because he does basically the same thing every game to varying levels of effectiveness. He is a bit like the NA Rekkles in playstyle, just less good on Ezreal (which is where Rekkles got his hype from, good EZ play).
On October 09 2016 11:48 Ethelis wrote: I would love to see Bjergsen and Forgiven on a korean team with a (some?) english speaking koreans. Bjergsen has hit a wall in terms of team success and Forgiven is someone who is not only great (in the west) but doesn't seem he'd mind the korean way of training. Weren't Forgiven and Froggen rumored to being looked at to be imported to Korea at one point? Regardless of their results I think it'd be fun to see something like this.
Forgiven is just as overrated as doublelift. No idea where that forgiven hype comes from.
Same reason as Doublelift, "personality". Constantly involved in Twitter drama, gives spicy interviews etc. And with Forgiven you get the "edgy" bonus because he was supposed to be toxic which the kids love. Then you have players like Stixxay and others who are probably more effective in game but noone cares about them because they just play. Imo its kinda sad.
Stixxay more effective ayy lmao. And people hating on players for their personalities and not for their gameplay is just as sad.
Also the lucian picks both games were so fucking awful. Rather sad they went with it even if it is dlift's champ.
I could see riot actually growing the competition to a wc size event with 24 in the groups and 16 in the knockouts. If anything the wildcard regions look like they need more slots and you can't just take away slots from the west no matter how bad they play.
On October 10 2016 03:54 Sermokala wrote: I could see riot actually growing the competition to a wc size event with 24 in the groups and 16 in the knockouts. If anything the wildcard regions look like they need more slots and you can't just take away slots from the west no matter how bad they play.
That would probably be the ideal way to do it. 4 groups of 6 with a double round robin. Groups are now big enough that any losses are well deserved, and rankings would be more stable with 10 games each vs. 6.
I don't want to said it but RNG get stomped 3 times by Samsung twice and splyce, at least tsm has close games.
But the gap between TSM and IMT/CLG/C9 is much smaller than the gap between top 4 and every other NA LCS team.
And that's why I said that (overall) China = NA in terms of skill/talent: a lot of the losses NA teams have had so far at Worlds have been close ones with only one or two stomps, while RNG and EDG have both stomped people and been stomped by people, while I-May kind of flounders about.
On October 10 2016 06:55 zer0das wrote: It's really depressing how little impact Duke has but he's still pretty rich because he got first turret.
what ? duke is clapping impact creating pressure forcing c9 to cover
Everyone on SKT is doing that. Faker is clapping Jensen mid forcing him back. Bang/Wolf managed to outplay from the disadvantage that Meteos caused in botlane.
Reason Meteos CS is so high is partly due to him going from lane to lane so the CS doesn't get wasted.
I'm a little worried this is gonna tilt C9 and lead to them dropping the remaining 2 games :/ That SKT comp just looked so frustrating to play against.
Why did Impact not go yolo dive in at the end when Smoothie flash headbutt into SKT? That was their best chance to win. I don't think they would have, but that was about as good an engage as they were going to get.
I feel they should have just given up the inhib, timed out the elder dragon buff, and looked to find a better chance to engage.
On October 10 2016 07:18 Kinie wrote: Why did Impact not go yolo dive in at the end when Smoothie flash headbutt into SKT? That was their best chance to win. I don't think they would have, but that was about as good an engage as they were going to get.
On October 10 2016 07:18 Kinie wrote: Why did Impact not go yolo dive in at the end when Smoothie flash headbutt into SKT? That was their best chance to win. I don't think they would have, but that was about as good an engage as they were going to get.
He was respecting the Zyra way too much imo.
Yeah, I think so. But I'd rather go flash + protobelt + E into ulti than just dash about with the E and not go in.
SKT did focus hardcore on the vision though with their sieges, and Blank actually showed up to play for a change.
On October 10 2016 07:18 Kinie wrote: Why did Impact not go yolo dive in at the end when Smoothie flash headbutt into SKT? That was their best chance to win. I don't think they would have, but that was about as good an engage as they were going to get.
I feel they should have just given up the inhib, timed out the elder dragon buff, and looked to find a better chance to engage.
SKT was very spread out so I guess he thought it's not going to work and their only hope was defending the nexus 4v5 but Sneaky got caught.
On October 10 2016 07:17 BrownBear wrote: I'm a little worried this is gonna tilt C9 and lead to them dropping the remaining 2 games :/ That SKT comp just looked so frustrating to play against.
It shouldn't. Honestly very few team are as good as SKT in baiting CD.
Many times they took away Alistar's Flash/Ult and Olaf's ult before committing to an objective.
Really great pressure and discipline from them in the mid/late-game.
Now if only their P/B and early game aren't so nerve-wrecking.
I think I would;'ve tried to go in as kennen, but impact was not the main cause of the engage failing imo. Smoothie went in too early so was useless. Also about every flash of skt was up.
So something I just realized that C9 could've done as they show the Ryze engage replay in mid:
If Jensen and Impact went in and immediately used Zhonyas (which he didn't have but should have considered buying) they would have avoided Zyra ult, the inital hit of Viktor ult, and waste basically all of SKT's burst damage. Then Smoothie follows up with headbutt pulverize and then Impact comes out of Zhonyas with Kennen ult and just stuns all of SKT.
SKT didn't look very dominant but they didn't really looked beatable past the early game... their comp wasn't very fun to see but a NA terrible week 2 like last year would be so fun that I really wanted SKT to win.
On October 10 2016 07:24 Kavas wrote: Lee Sin simple champion.
Really Crumbzz?
He said that previously SKT would put Blank on a simple champion and not something as complex as Lee Sin, but they had faith in the jungler that he would show up, and he did.
Tbh, I did expect ryze to do little damage given how bad the flanks worked out. It's not a complete excuse, but i think it's less bad than numbers suggest.
Edit: uh oh, meteos on a mechanically intensive champ.
On October 10 2016 07:28 Kinie wrote: So something I just realized that C9 could've done as they show the Ryze engage replay in mid:
If Jensen and Impact went in and immediately used Zhonyas (which he didn't have but should have considered buying) they would have avoided Zyra ult, the inital hit of Viktor ult, and waste basically all of SKT's burst damage. Then Smoothie follows up with headbutt pulverize and then Impact comes out of Zhonyas with Kennen ult and just stuns all of SKT.
Uhhh, Jensen just dies first?
Nice idea for a Misaya play but SKT had vision of the start of the port. I think they would have noticed if Impact just Zhonyas and didn't ult.
Doing it after the port might make the timing tricky.
I think I like C9's draft more than FW's. Poppy's a bit scary because it's a very easy champ to play and covers up MMD's weaknesses, but if Meteos bodies mid and bot with Nidalee it shouldn't matter.
Jensen got caught out, now it's up to C9 trying to beat I-May and maybe them being able to get into a tie-breaker for the last slot, assuming that FW beat SKT.
Edit:
If Jensen can't get Syndra he just seems too heavy to do anything, and the nerves seem to be getting to Sneaky and Meteos.
On October 10 2016 08:24 iCanada wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is the win percentage of teams in a back to back match?
Taking into account just the last day of groups A, C and D, the win percentage of the team already having played a game just before that, including tiebrakers, is 50%. (4-4) (Unnless i made a mistake in counting)
I think I'll stop watching now and watch the vods later. I hate those periods of nothingness between group stages and quarterfinals, I'll use those vods to fill the void.
So C9 has to beat I-May and have FW lose to SKT to get in without a tie-breaker. If they lose it's up to SKT to force a tie-breaker by beating FW. If FW do beat SKT and C9 win their game vs. I-May then it's a tie-breaker for second place between FW and C9. If C9 lose and SKT lose then it's FW getting into quarters.
On October 10 2016 08:24 iCanada wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is the win percentage of teams in a back to back match?
Taking into account just the last day of groups A, C and D, the win percentage of the team already having played a game just before that, including tiebrakers, is 50%. (4-4) (Unnless i made a mistake in counting)
Huh.
Perhaps it isn't a factor.
I dunno, I don't like how they have certain teams playing twice in a row. Makes it feel like a cheap old school LAN in someones basement.
On October 10 2016 08:24 iCanada wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is the win percentage of teams in a back to back match?
Taking into account just the last day of groups A, C and D, the win percentage of the team already having played a game just before that, including tiebrakers, is 50%. (4-4) (Unnless i made a mistake in counting)
Huh.
Perhaps it isn't a factor.
I dunno, I don't like how they have certain teams playing twice in a row. Makes it feel like a cheap old school LAN in someones basement.
The group stage format is very awkward and I hope they figure something out for next year.
On October 10 2016 08:24 iCanada wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is the win percentage of teams in a back to back match?
Taking into account just the last day of groups A, C and D, the win percentage of the team already having played a game just before that, including tiebrakers, is 50%. (4-4) (Unnless i made a mistake in counting)
Huh.
Perhaps it isn't a factor.
I dunno, I don't like how they have certain teams playing twice in a row. Makes it feel like a cheap old school LAN in someones basement.
I mean, in a BO3 sometimes people have to play 3 games back to back and in a BO5 sometimes and I don't want to scare you but teams can be forced to play 5 GAMES BACK TO BACK HOLY SHIT OMGWTFBBQ + Show Spoiler +
On October 10 2016 07:17 BrownBear wrote: I'm a little worried this is gonna tilt C9 and lead to them dropping the remaining 2 games :/ That SKT comp just looked so frustrating to play against.
It shouldn't. Honestly very few team are as good as SKT in baiting CD.
Many times they took away Alistar's Flash/Ult and Olaf's ult before committing to an objective.
Really great pressure and discipline from them in the mid/late-game.
Now if only their P/B and early game aren't so nerve-wrecking.
I wanted to believe, but after that FW game I think C9 gets clapped out of Worlds and the NA dream dies again.
On October 10 2016 08:24 iCanada wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is the win percentage of teams in a back to back match?
Taking into account just the last day of groups A, C and D, the win percentage of the team already having played a game just before that, including tiebrakers, is 50%. (4-4) (Unnless i made a mistake in counting)
Huh.
Perhaps it isn't a factor.
I dunno, I don't like how they have certain teams playing twice in a row. Makes it feel like a cheap old school LAN in someones basement.
I mean, in a BO3 sometimes people have to play 3 games back to back and in a BO5 sometimes and I don't want to scare you but teams can be forced to play 5 GAMES BACK TO BACK HOLY SHIT OMGWTFBBQ + Show Spoiler +
it doesn't really matter much
I agree that it will not make a big difference. But it might make a difference in the sense that one party has just played a game, while the other has not. In a BO3/5, this isn't really the case. Then of course, i would expect that the player's stamina is good enough to let that not be a factor.
On October 10 2016 08:24 iCanada wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is the win percentage of teams in a back to back match?
Taking into account just the last day of groups A, C and D, the win percentage of the team already having played a game just before that, including tiebrakers, is 50%. (4-4) (Unnless i made a mistake in counting)
Huh.
Perhaps it isn't a factor.
I dunno, I don't like how they have certain teams playing twice in a row. Makes it feel like a cheap old school LAN in someones basement.
I mean, in a BO3 sometimes people have to play 3 games back to back and in a BO5 sometimes and I don't want to scare you but teams can be forced to play 5 GAMES BACK TO BACK HOLY SHIT OMGWTFBBQ + Show Spoiler +
it doesn't really matter much
Well yeah, but thats both teams playing back to back. That is different then one team playing back to back.
On October 10 2016 09:42 chipmonklord17 wrote: Alright boys, if IMay beat C9 they qualify as 2nd. If C9 win AND FW beats SKT then we get a tiebreak between C9 and FW for 2nd
If c9 wins and FW loses then c9 goes through as 2nd as well.
On October 10 2016 10:31 travis wrote: how can they be 10k ahead and lose fights like this?
By sneaky using his ult super out of position, firing 2 shots, and then having to walk around the baron pit to be back in his teams backline. He missed about 80% of the fight.
Man, I don't know what happened to C9 but they wouldn't be pulling all this dumb shit in the gauntlet. Meteos needs to stop getting caught under towers and Impact needs to put down his Rumble ult down at a half decent angle. Or just never fight these 5v5s and use your 2 down inhibs to your advantage. Sheesh.
Flashwolves really shouldve beat IMay when they had to roleswap. That is just unacceptable. If they did, they had the tiebreaker vs C9 vs quarters and didnt have to rely on beating SKT again.
On October 10 2016 11:56 MooMooMugi wrote: Flashwolves really shouldve beat IMay when they had to roleswap. That is just unacceptable. If they did, they had the tiebreaker vs C9 vs quarters and didnt have to rely on beating SKT again.
Just shows everyone except Korean teams are horribly inconsistent.
It would be all KR final (unless teamkill) anyways.
C9's gonna get sodomized by literally any other opponent. H2K are lucky as fuck with 1st seed/easy group and will only lose if they get Royal Royal is k, but by no means good. EDG is hot garbage ANX (world champs 2016)
On October 10 2016 12:11 Gahlo wrote: H2K lucking so hard this tourney.
They certainly have the easier half but ANX could just as easily beat them. Also I'm hyped as fuck for C9/Samsung because that was the match up at worlds that made me a C9 fan and a league fan in general years back.
On October 10 2016 12:11 Gahlo wrote: H2K lucking so hard this tourney.
They certainly have the easier half but ANX could just as easily beat them. Also I'm hyped as fuck for C9/Samsung because that was the match up at worlds that made me a C9 fan and a league fan in general years back.
They literally couldn't have an easier side of the bracket. They have the weakest Korean team, and dodged RNG - which has been the only Chinese teams that's seemed to keep its shit together. I'm not sure I'm willing to give credence to a BoX from ANX.
On October 10 2016 12:11 Gahlo wrote: H2K lucking so hard this tourney.
They certainly have the easier half but ANX could just as easily beat them. Also I'm hyped as fuck for C9/Samsung because that was the match up at worlds that made me a C9 fan and a league fan in general years back.
They literally couldn't have an easier side of the bracket. They have the weakest Korean team, and dodged RNG - which has been the only Chinese teams that's seemed to keep its shit together. I'm not sure I'm willing to give credence to a BoX from ANX.
I think it depends on the first couple of games. Their stamina seems in question but I don't know if their questionable stamina is better or worse than H2K's questionable form. Week 1 H2K shows up and I think ANX wins, but if week 2 H2K is here they should crush them.
To me it seems more like H2K tilts versus ANX who runs out of steam, so it depends on which of those forces is stronger
Smeb will have his way with mouse. He can play Riven, it really wont matter. RNG does random shit from time to time, and it will be exploited by skt. Kuro is a notorious choker against faker, so i see skt winning the semi.
On the other side, I don't see a team having better macro than ssg, and crown and ambition outclass any counterparts on other teams.
I really hope that they change the system next year so that luck doesn't play such a huge factor. Like, you only have one big international tournament a year; the format shouldn't be so shit.
On October 09 2016 10:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: The same fucking thing happened as last year. NA does well week 1 but disappoints in week 2. It's like the entire region just goes on vacation in between the two weeks and doesn't prepare like the other teams do.
This game was lost starting from pick/ban. You know RNG is going to funnel everything they have into Uzi. You can't let their mid pick Aurelion Sol and protect him. And when he picks Ezreal/Nami you need a gameplan to shut him down. They had no plan. They instead first picked Jayce - has any Jayce been impactful so far in Worlds?
Jayce top is a classic Scrim Hero champ. He gets massive CS leads because he forces backs with ranged W and can't get engaged on 1v1 by melees because of his knock away. However, he is basically a poke champion at heart, which makes him a stupid TP carrier.
This TSM vs. RNG game demonstrates the problem to a T. On the first baron Haunter was pushing botlane and ended up taking 2 towers without TPing as RNG gets baron. But what if he did TP? He has to TP 15 seconds before the fight because you want to get off at least 2 QEs before you fight.
Edit:
Also RiotPls delete Aurelion Sol. Nothing worse than a noskill champ being must ban.
perhaps next year.
its a slight improvement on mordekaiser from last year. darius was quite stupid as well in terms of no skill.
edit:
on another note, this is the weakest #1 seed teams have looked at worlds
rox - closed out strong but their group stage was far from stable g2 - no explanation needed fw - currently 1-2, not looking too good for them tsm - eliminated
To be fair, this is also a year where the #1 and #2 seeds aren't that far away in skill. The last two years gave us SSW who could only lose to themselves and SSB and the super contender SKT. There hasn't been a super dominant team in Korea; SKT was strong but in decline and Rox kept falling off towards end of season. KT was the best team end of summer but lost to Rox and SSG but a hair. In EU and NA the #1/#2 difference hasn't been what the records have suggested. I haven't followed Taiwan/China this year to talk about those differences reasonably, but coming into worlds there were obvious flaws for each team. Then NA has this tendency to do random and terrible P/B that put them super behind.
In terms of China it was pretty clear that #1 was EDG right from the start of summer split, and it was a 3 man competition between RNG, Snake, and WE for who would be #2 and the supposed #3. I-May just spiked hard core at the end in the gauntlet and upset Snake and WE for the last slot, while RNG got in on circuit points thanks to two solid finishes in spring and summer splits.
SKT, KT, SSG, and ROX were all top 4 teams in Korea, with a pretty decent drop-off after those four. EU was just G2 stomping fools because of literal 0 competition, and NA had a similar problem of once the top 3 teams were decided (TSM, CLG, C9) the drop-off to the last 7 teams was so massive that the top 3 could only get better by scrimming each other, which can only get you so far.
Right now I'd argue that, in terms of overall league strength, it's Korea > China = NA > EU, with LMS and LCL probably in the nebulous area of, "better than EU but worse than NA." And sure, you might think me crazy for thinking that China's top teams are about as equal as the top NA teams, but this group stage so far makes me think that - in an ideal world where both regions have their teams in good health, good cooperation, good pick/ban and a good read on the meta (all things that can vary WILDLY) - the skill level of the players is about equal and we would probably see a lot of trading of games back and forth.
That sounds harsh, but in prior years it used to be Korea >>>>> China >>> NA = EU, with LMS and LCL also in that nebulous area of, "about as equal to NA and EU." The gap has closed, but now we have to see if the infrastructure put into place in TSM, C9, and CLG holds in the off-season, and if other teams start to pick it up and have it's players focus more on scrim/practice schedule and less on streaming.
Its TSM
Gap
IMT/CLG/C9
Gap
The rest
I don't want to said it but RNG get stomped 3 times by Samsung twice and splyce, at least tsm has close games.
The gap between TSM and C9/CLG/IMT isn't as big as perceived. TSM's flaws weren't in any way tested or targeted in NA. Taking nothing away from TSM, they are a good team. It's just still not Korean level; the fact they were heavily limited by the level of opponent they could scrim with throughout summer limited growth. Plus, coach/analyst failures in P/B; Jayce isn't a great pick unless going with other strong poke. Zilean is very bad in current meta. TSM is best playing towards a pick comp but even play towards their strength.
On October 10 2016 12:11 Gahlo wrote: H2K lucking so hard this tourney.
they got 1st seed there was 0% chance they get any kr team or edg
Yeah, but to have they have possibly the weakest #2 seed(I don't believe in ANX in a BoX yet) in their quarter finals matchup and the weakest semi final opponent possibilities. There is no easier road to the finals in that draw except maybe swapping C9 and ANX.
On October 10 2016 12:11 Gahlo wrote: H2K lucking so hard this tourney.
they got 1st seed there was 0% chance they get any kr team or edg
Yeah, but to have they have possibly the weakest #2 seed(I don't believe in ANX in a BoX yet) in their quarter finals matchup and the weakest semi final opponent possibilities. There is no easier road to the finals in that draw except maybe swapping C9 and ANX.
It was bound to happen sooner or later. The top seed from the group that has zero Korean teams historically has always gone far since the tournament format change to four groups in Season 4. With the way Riot Games allocates the groups, and the number of Korean teams attending, the first placed team in the group with zero Korean teams is almost guaranteed a safe passage to the semi-finals, assuming all Korean teams finish first in their group (which is not a wild assumption to make since every single Korean team has managed that since the format change in Season 4, with the sole exception of KOO Tigers). They had a one in three chance of drawing ANX.
With the paucity of truly meaningful international competition, and Riot's avoidance of double elimination formats, it is near impossible for one single tournament with its current format to truly reflect the standings of all the teams around the world. Perhaps H2k lucked out more so than others, but it was within the realms of possibility with the way things are set up. When was the last time you thought the top four standings at the World Championship (the placement I think H2k is most likey to achieve) accurately portrayed the top four teams of the world?
I'm all for tournament placings being designed in order to most accurately reflect the strengths of various teams, but the international competitive landscape would need a complete overhaul to match that specific need. It's a pipe dream with the way things are.
On October 09 2016 10:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: The same fucking thing happened as last year. NA does well week 1 but disappoints in week 2. It's like the entire region just goes on vacation in between the two weeks and doesn't prepare like the other teams do.
This game was lost starting from pick/ban. You know RNG is going to funnel everything they have into Uzi. You can't let their mid pick Aurelion Sol and protect him. And when he picks Ezreal/Nami you need a gameplan to shut him down. They had no plan. They instead first picked Jayce - has any Jayce been impactful so far in Worlds?
Jayce top is a classic Scrim Hero champ. He gets massive CS leads because he forces backs with ranged W and can't get engaged on 1v1 by melees because of his knock away. However, he is basically a poke champion at heart, which makes him a stupid TP carrier.
This TSM vs. RNG game demonstrates the problem to a T. On the first baron Haunter was pushing botlane and ended up taking 2 towers without TPing as RNG gets baron. But what if he did TP? He has to TP 15 seconds before the fight because you want to get off at least 2 QEs before you fight.
Edit:
Also RiotPls delete Aurelion Sol. Nothing worse than a noskill champ being must ban.
perhaps next year.
its a slight improvement on mordekaiser from last year. darius was quite stupid as well in terms of no skill.
edit:
on another note, this is the weakest #1 seed teams have looked at worlds
rox - closed out strong but their group stage was far from stable g2 - no explanation needed fw - currently 1-2, not looking too good for them tsm - eliminated
To be fair, this is also a year where the #1 and #2 seeds aren't that far away in skill. The last two years gave us SSW who could only lose to themselves and SSB and the super contender SKT. There hasn't been a super dominant team in Korea; SKT was strong but in decline and Rox kept falling off towards end of season. KT was the best team end of summer but lost to Rox and SSG but a hair. In EU and NA the #1/#2 difference hasn't been what the records have suggested. I haven't followed Taiwan/China this year to talk about those differences reasonably, but coming into worlds there were obvious flaws for each team. Then NA has this tendency to do random and terrible P/B that put them super behind.
In terms of China it was pretty clear that #1 was EDG right from the start of summer split, and it was a 3 man competition between RNG, Snake, and WE for who would be #2 and the supposed #3. I-May just spiked hard core at the end in the gauntlet and upset Snake and WE for the last slot, while RNG got in on circuit points thanks to two solid finishes in spring and summer splits.
SKT, KT, SSG, and ROX were all top 4 teams in Korea, with a pretty decent drop-off after those four. EU was just G2 stomping fools because of literal 0 competition, and NA had a similar problem of once the top 3 teams were decided (TSM, CLG, C9) the drop-off to the last 7 teams was so massive that the top 3 could only get better by scrimming each other, which can only get you so far.
Right now I'd argue that, in terms of overall league strength, it's Korea > China = NA > EU, with LMS and LCL probably in the nebulous area of, "better than EU but worse than NA." And sure, you might think me crazy for thinking that China's top teams are about as equal as the top NA teams, but this group stage so far makes me think that - in an ideal world where both regions have their teams in good health, good cooperation, good pick/ban and a good read on the meta (all things that can vary WILDLY) - the skill level of the players is about equal and we would probably see a lot of trading of games back and forth.
That sounds harsh, but in prior years it used to be Korea >>>>> China >>> NA = EU, with LMS and LCL also in that nebulous area of, "about as equal to NA and EU." The gap has closed, but now we have to see if the infrastructure put into place in TSM, C9, and CLG holds in the off-season, and if other teams start to pick it up and have it's players focus more on scrim/practice schedule and less on streaming.
Its TSM
Gap
IMT/CLG/C9
Gap
The rest
I don't want to said it but RNG get stomped 3 times by Samsung twice and splyce, at least tsm has close games.
The gap between TSM and C9/CLG/IMT isn't as big as perceived. TSM's flaws weren't in any way tested or targeted in NA. Taking nothing away from TSM, they are a good team. It's just still not Korean level; the fact they were heavily limited by the level of opponent they could scrim with throughout summer limited growth. Plus, coach/analyst failures in P/B; Jayce isn't a great pick unless going with other strong poke. Zilean is very bad in current meta. TSM is best playing towards a pick comp but even play towards their strength.
I think all of TSMs major flaws of this tournament are much more fixable than CLG or C9 s. They really need a OGN winter invite where they can get in a ton of matches that crisp up the P&B and get Bio into the form of properly managing double's positioning. If not they will need luck, or will continue to lose even to teams that looked, IMO, 5% or so worse than them (RNG) overall.
Just looked at group bracket. Poor EDG has just about the worst draw imaginable. To win they would need back to back victories against Rox Tigers, SKT, and Samsung Galaxy.
Compare that to Samsung's path of cloud9, H2k, SKT. It's like EDG needs to play LCK while Samsung gets to play LCS.
I was thinking before worlds that this might be China's year, because I could see EDG upsetting a strong Korean team. But three back to back probably isn't happening.
On October 09 2016 10:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: The same fucking thing happened as last year. NA does well week 1 but disappoints in week 2. It's like the entire region just goes on vacation in between the two weeks and doesn't prepare like the other teams do.
This game was lost starting from pick/ban. You know RNG is going to funnel everything they have into Uzi. You can't let their mid pick Aurelion Sol and protect him. And when he picks Ezreal/Nami you need a gameplan to shut him down. They had no plan. They instead first picked Jayce - has any Jayce been impactful so far in Worlds?
Jayce top is a classic Scrim Hero champ. He gets massive CS leads because he forces backs with ranged W and can't get engaged on 1v1 by melees because of his knock away. However, he is basically a poke champion at heart, which makes him a stupid TP carrier.
This TSM vs. RNG game demonstrates the problem to a T. On the first baron Haunter was pushing botlane and ended up taking 2 towers without TPing as RNG gets baron. But what if he did TP? He has to TP 15 seconds before the fight because you want to get off at least 2 QEs before you fight.
Edit:
Also RiotPls delete Aurelion Sol. Nothing worse than a noskill champ being must ban.
perhaps next year.
its a slight improvement on mordekaiser from last year. darius was quite stupid as well in terms of no skill.
edit:
on another note, this is the weakest #1 seed teams have looked at worlds
rox - closed out strong but their group stage was far from stable g2 - no explanation needed fw - currently 1-2, not looking too good for them tsm - eliminated
To be fair, this is also a year where the #1 and #2 seeds aren't that far away in skill. The last two years gave us SSW who could only lose to themselves and SSB and the super contender SKT. There hasn't been a super dominant team in Korea; SKT was strong but in decline and Rox kept falling off towards end of season. KT was the best team end of summer but lost to Rox and SSG but a hair. In EU and NA the #1/#2 difference hasn't been what the records have suggested. I haven't followed Taiwan/China this year to talk about those differences reasonably, but coming into worlds there were obvious flaws for each team. Then NA has this tendency to do random and terrible P/B that put them super behind.
In terms of China it was pretty clear that #1 was EDG right from the start of summer split, and it was a 3 man competition between RNG, Snake, and WE for who would be #2 and the supposed #3. I-May just spiked hard core at the end in the gauntlet and upset Snake and WE for the last slot, while RNG got in on circuit points thanks to two solid finishes in spring and summer splits.
SKT, KT, SSG, and ROX were all top 4 teams in Korea, with a pretty decent drop-off after those four. EU was just G2 stomping fools because of literal 0 competition, and NA had a similar problem of once the top 3 teams were decided (TSM, CLG, C9) the drop-off to the last 7 teams was so massive that the top 3 could only get better by scrimming each other, which can only get you so far.
Right now I'd argue that, in terms of overall league strength, it's Korea > China = NA > EU, with LMS and LCL probably in the nebulous area of, "better than EU but worse than NA." And sure, you might think me crazy for thinking that China's top teams are about as equal as the top NA teams, but this group stage so far makes me think that - in an ideal world where both regions have their teams in good health, good cooperation, good pick/ban and a good read on the meta (all things that can vary WILDLY) - the skill level of the players is about equal and we would probably see a lot of trading of games back and forth.
That sounds harsh, but in prior years it used to be Korea >>>>> China >>> NA = EU, with LMS and LCL also in that nebulous area of, "about as equal to NA and EU." The gap has closed, but now we have to see if the infrastructure put into place in TSM, C9, and CLG holds in the off-season, and if other teams start to pick it up and have it's players focus more on scrim/practice schedule and less on streaming.
Its TSM
Gap
IMT/CLG/C9
Gap
The rest
I don't want to said it but RNG get stomped 3 times by Samsung twice and splyce, at least tsm has close games.
The gap between TSM and C9/CLG/IMT isn't as big as perceived. TSM's flaws weren't in any way tested or targeted in NA. Taking nothing away from TSM, they are a good team. It's just still not Korean level; the fact they were heavily limited by the level of opponent they could scrim with throughout summer limited growth. Plus, coach/analyst failures in P/B; Jayce isn't a great pick unless going with other strong poke. Zilean is very bad in current meta. TSM is best playing towards a pick comp but even play towards their strength.
I think all of TSMs major flaws of this tournament are much more fixable than CLG or C9 s. They really need a OGN winter invite where they can get in a ton of matches that crisp up the P&B and get Bio into the form of properly managing double's positioning. If not they will need luck, or will continue to lose even to teams that looked, IMO, 5% or so worse than them (RNG) overall.
Yes and no. Hauntzer, while useful, would still be significantly better as Impact; Hauntzer is a good serviceable player but nothing more. Doublelift still has his default problems that we saw on CLG; aka split pushing too far and valuing win lane-win game too much. He's still the best or second best NA ADC, but he looks less than stellar on Ezreal, Sivir and Jhin while lacking strong out of meta side options. Biofrost's champion pool and depth looks crucially lacking. They lack the ability to play a wide range of comps and suffer because the Jhin ban seriously hampers their ability to win. Other than Svenskaren's Lee Sin, there are no player specific bans required allowing teams to target core team comp components.
If I were the coach, Biofrost would need to add Nami, Alistar, Brand, Zyra and Kennen. Bjerg and DL need to add Varus. Hauntzer needs to add Ryze and Trundle. Everyone needs to assess summoners (cleanse mid) and build paths (especially in response to game situation).
In the long run, I don't think Hauntzer and DL are fixable; Hauntzer is the more likely of the two to be though I think. All that said, this world's meta was not very good for TSM; it's far from the worst possible, but it's also in no way up TSM's alley. IMO, the real failure at this worlds is China. This meta should be perfect for them, but their teams have managed to look really bad.
On October 10 2016 12:11 Gahlo wrote: H2K lucking so hard this tourney.
they got 1st seed there was 0% chance they get any kr team or edg
Yeah, but to have they have possibly the weakest #2 seed(I don't believe in ANX in a BoX yet) in their quarter finals matchup and the weakest semi final opponent possibilities. There is no easier road to the finals in that draw except maybe swapping C9 and ANX.
It was bound to happen sooner or later. The top seed from the group that has zero Korean teams historically has always gone far since the tournament format change to four groups in Season 4. With the way Riot Games allocates the groups, and the number of Korean teams attending, the first placed team in the group with zero Korean teams is almost guaranteed a safe passage to the semi-finals, assuming all Korean teams finish first in their group (which is not a wild assumption to make since every single Korean team has managed that since the format change in Season 4, with the sole exception of KOO Tigers). They had a one in three chance of drawing ANX.
With the paucity of truly meaningful international competition, and Riot's avoidance of double elimination formats, it is near impossible for one single tournament with its current format to truly reflect the standings of all the teams around the world. Perhaps H2k lucked out more so than others, but it was within the realms of possibility with the way things are set up. When was the last time you thought the top four standings at the World Championship (the placement I think H2k is most likey to achieve) accurately portrayed the top four teams of the world?
I'm all for tournament placings being designed in order to most accurately reflect the strengths of various teams, but the international competitive landscape would need a complete overhaul to match that specific need. It's a pipe dream with the way things are.
Your argument is circular. If you start by assuming that all first seeds will beat all second seeds in QFs, and then also assume that Koreans claim 3 of the 4 first seeds, then no shit, the semifinals will be made up of 3 Korean teams and one first seed that came from a group without Koreans.
The point of Worlds isn't to crown second place, third place, or fourth place. A single elimination tournament will only ever guarantee a worthy first place team. Even a double elimination tournament only guarantees the correctness of first and second place. And both of those are only true if you assume transitivity, which is obviously not the case in League. So unless you want Worlds to be a Bo8 quadruple round robin between all 16 teams, you're always going to run into this scenario of some teams having luckier draws than others. That's life. If you want to be champ, you gotta beat everyone in your path. TSM drew the single toughest group out of any other team in the tournament and have to go home, even though they looked far stronger than H2k.
Also, I commented on this in NALCS, but Cloud 9 has got to fix their Impact teamfighting problems. His teleports are never very good and always come at the worst timings. As Gnar he never teleports in with an appropriate rage bar; as Rumble he teleported in and immediately overheated with W (????). He's so concerned about preserving his KDA that he isn't being the big man up front that he needs to be, and there are definitely fights that he can teleport into that he chooses not to instead. He's playing like a third carry even when he's on a tank.
And it doesn't help that Reddit + casters have a huge hard-on for Impact and think he's some kind of top lane god. He's a beast 1v1, but you're at a level now where that doesn't mean much any more. Cuvee is not going to hard feed and go 0-5 in lane like some Dignitas top laner. So Impact's greatest strength is largely neutered, while his greatest weakness is becoming more and more apparent.
They need to fix their confidence before anything, this is for NA in general. Sven having been the only one who seemed to have balls have been a NA issue for the most part in my opinion, where's the Stixxay flashing forward to get a Jhin 4th auto? Doublelift charging headless ahead with Sivir ult to delete a team? I dont really get it. The NA players are good but if you dont utilize your full ability you're putting youself behind before the game even start.
Look at Pray and Deft's Ezreal where they E into a fight to add a metric ton of more DPS than lingering far away and throw out Qs and getting the odd auto.
If you're not ready to go for big plays you're never going to get them. Sven has looked so much better than everyone else from the region since he just go for it. As in any other sports confidence regardless of opponent is of extreme importance when you play at the highest level.
Just look at ANX, they give no fucks and honestly are not individually better than the teams they beat. Their willingness to go for big plays and take risks have thrown off even ROX.
On October 11 2016 00:36 Jek wrote: They need to fix their confidence before anything, this is for NA in general. Sven having been the only one who seemed to have balls have been a NA issue for the most part in my opinion, where's the Stixxay flashing forward to get a Jhin 4th auto? Doublelift charging headless ahead with Sivir ult to delete a team? I dont really get it. The NA players are good but if you dont utilize your full ability you're putting youself behind before the game even start.
Look at Pray and Deft's Ezreal where they E into a fight to add a metric ton of more DPS than lingering far away and throw out Qs and getting the odd auto.
If you're not ready to go for big plays you're never going to get them. Sven has looked so much better than everyone else from the region since he just go for it. As in any other sports confidence regardless of opponent is of extreme importance when you play at the highest level.
Just look at ANX, they give no fucks and honestly are not individually better than the teams they beat. Their willingness to go for big plays and take risks have thrown off even ROX.
ANX is also playing with 0 pressure because they came in to the tournament prepared to go 0-6.
On October 09 2016 10:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: The same fucking thing happened as last year. NA does well week 1 but disappoints in week 2. It's like the entire region just goes on vacation in between the two weeks and doesn't prepare like the other teams do.
This game was lost starting from pick/ban. You know RNG is going to funnel everything they have into Uzi. You can't let their mid pick Aurelion Sol and protect him. And when he picks Ezreal/Nami you need a gameplan to shut him down. They had no plan. They instead first picked Jayce - has any Jayce been impactful so far in Worlds?
Jayce top is a classic Scrim Hero champ. He gets massive CS leads because he forces backs with ranged W and can't get engaged on 1v1 by melees because of his knock away. However, he is basically a poke champion at heart, which makes him a stupid TP carrier.
This TSM vs. RNG game demonstrates the problem to a T. On the first baron Haunter was pushing botlane and ended up taking 2 towers without TPing as RNG gets baron. But what if he did TP? He has to TP 15 seconds before the fight because you want to get off at least 2 QEs before you fight.
Edit:
Also RiotPls delete Aurelion Sol. Nothing worse than a noskill champ being must ban.
perhaps next year.
its a slight improvement on mordekaiser from last year. darius was quite stupid as well in terms of no skill.
edit:
on another note, this is the weakest #1 seed teams have looked at worlds
rox - closed out strong but their group stage was far from stable g2 - no explanation needed fw - currently 1-2, not looking too good for them tsm - eliminated
To be fair, this is also a year where the #1 and #2 seeds aren't that far away in skill. The last two years gave us SSW who could only lose to themselves and SSB and the super contender SKT. There hasn't been a super dominant team in Korea; SKT was strong but in decline and Rox kept falling off towards end of season. KT was the best team end of summer but lost to Rox and SSG but a hair. In EU and NA the #1/#2 difference hasn't been what the records have suggested. I haven't followed Taiwan/China this year to talk about those differences reasonably, but coming into worlds there were obvious flaws for each team. Then NA has this tendency to do random and terrible P/B that put them super behind.
In terms of China it was pretty clear that #1 was EDG right from the start of summer split, and it was a 3 man competition between RNG, Snake, and WE for who would be #2 and the supposed #3. I-May just spiked hard core at the end in the gauntlet and upset Snake and WE for the last slot, while RNG got in on circuit points thanks to two solid finishes in spring and summer splits.
SKT, KT, SSG, and ROX were all top 4 teams in Korea, with a pretty decent drop-off after those four. EU was just G2 stomping fools because of literal 0 competition, and NA had a similar problem of once the top 3 teams were decided (TSM, CLG, C9) the drop-off to the last 7 teams was so massive that the top 3 could only get better by scrimming each other, which can only get you so far.
Right now I'd argue that, in terms of overall league strength, it's Korea > China = NA > EU, with LMS and LCL probably in the nebulous area of, "better than EU but worse than NA." And sure, you might think me crazy for thinking that China's top teams are about as equal as the top NA teams, but this group stage so far makes me think that - in an ideal world where both regions have their teams in good health, good cooperation, good pick/ban and a good read on the meta (all things that can vary WILDLY) - the skill level of the players is about equal and we would probably see a lot of trading of games back and forth.
That sounds harsh, but in prior years it used to be Korea >>>>> China >>> NA = EU, with LMS and LCL also in that nebulous area of, "about as equal to NA and EU." The gap has closed, but now we have to see if the infrastructure put into place in TSM, C9, and CLG holds in the off-season, and if other teams start to pick it up and have it's players focus more on scrim/practice schedule and less on streaming.
Its TSM
Gap
IMT/CLG/C9
Gap
The rest
I don't want to said it but RNG get stomped 3 times by Samsung twice and splyce, at least tsm has close games.
The gap between TSM and C9/CLG/IMT isn't as big as perceived. TSM's flaws weren't in any way tested or targeted in NA. Taking nothing away from TSM, they are a good team. It's just still not Korean level; the fact they were heavily limited by the level of opponent they could scrim with throughout summer limited growth. Plus, coach/analyst failures in P/B; Jayce isn't a great pick unless going with other strong poke. Zilean is very bad in current meta. TSM is best playing towards a pick comp but even play towards their strength.
I think all of TSMs major flaws of this tournament are much more fixable than CLG or C9 s. They really need a OGN winter invite where they can get in a ton of matches that crisp up the P&B and get Bio into the form of properly managing double's positioning. If not they will need luck, or will continue to lose even to teams that looked, IMO, 5% or so worse than them (RNG) overall.
Yes and no. Hauntzer, while useful, would still be significantly better as Impact; Hauntzer is a good serviceable player but nothing more. Doublelift still has his default problems that we saw on CLG; aka split pushing too far and valuing win lane-win game too much. He's still the best or second best NA ADC, but he looks less than stellar on Ezreal, Sivir and Jhin while lacking strong out of meta side options. Biofrost's champion pool and depth looks crucially lacking. They lack the ability to play a wide range of comps and suffer because the Jhin ban seriously hampers their ability to win. Other than Svenskaren's Lee Sin, there are no player specific bans required allowing teams to target core team comp components.
If I were the coach, Biofrost would need to add Nami, Alistar, Brand, Zyra and Kennen. Bjerg and DL need to add Varus. Hauntzer needs to add Ryze and Trundle. Everyone needs to assess summoners (cleanse mid) and build paths (especially in response to game situation).
In the long run, I don't think Hauntzer and DL are fixable; Hauntzer is the more likely of the two to be though I think. All that said, this world's meta was not very good for TSM; it's far from the worst possible, but it's also in no way up TSM's alley. IMO, the real failure at this worlds is China. This meta should be perfect for them, but their teams have managed to look really bad.
DL I definitely agree on, his derping is just part of who he is. I need to see a lot more haunter to say he is a lost cause. IMO he is much better at the role (which is pretty much the same) than mouse or trace.. I could see him (if there was an international invitational that was season-long) being a looper level consistent, but not carry, toplaner. But he will never really get that chance because he literally just faces Impact.
On October 09 2016 10:31 GrandInquisitor wrote: The same fucking thing happened as last year. NA does well week 1 but disappoints in week 2. It's like the entire region just goes on vacation in between the two weeks and doesn't prepare like the other teams do.
This game was lost starting from pick/ban. You know RNG is going to funnel everything they have into Uzi. You can't let their mid pick Aurelion Sol and protect him. And when he picks Ezreal/Nami you need a gameplan to shut him down. They had no plan. They instead first picked Jayce - has any Jayce been impactful so far in Worlds?
Jayce top is a classic Scrim Hero champ. He gets massive CS leads because he forces backs with ranged W and can't get engaged on 1v1 by melees because of his knock away. However, he is basically a poke champion at heart, which makes him a stupid TP carrier.
This TSM vs. RNG game demonstrates the problem to a T. On the first baron Haunter was pushing botlane and ended up taking 2 towers without TPing as RNG gets baron. But what if he did TP? He has to TP 15 seconds before the fight because you want to get off at least 2 QEs before you fight.
Edit:
Also RiotPls delete Aurelion Sol. Nothing worse than a noskill champ being must ban.
perhaps next year.
its a slight improvement on mordekaiser from last year. darius was quite stupid as well in terms of no skill.
edit:
on another note, this is the weakest #1 seed teams have looked at worlds
rox - closed out strong but their group stage was far from stable g2 - no explanation needed fw - currently 1-2, not looking too good for them tsm - eliminated
To be fair, this is also a year where the #1 and #2 seeds aren't that far away in skill. The last two years gave us SSW who could only lose to themselves and SSB and the super contender SKT. There hasn't been a super dominant team in Korea; SKT was strong but in decline and Rox kept falling off towards end of season. KT was the best team end of summer but lost to Rox and SSG but a hair. In EU and NA the #1/#2 difference hasn't been what the records have suggested. I haven't followed Taiwan/China this year to talk about those differences reasonably, but coming into worlds there were obvious flaws for each team. Then NA has this tendency to do random and terrible P/B that put them super behind.
In terms of China it was pretty clear that #1 was EDG right from the start of summer split, and it was a 3 man competition between RNG, Snake, and WE for who would be #2 and the supposed #3. I-May just spiked hard core at the end in the gauntlet and upset Snake and WE for the last slot, while RNG got in on circuit points thanks to two solid finishes in spring and summer splits.
SKT, KT, SSG, and ROX were all top 4 teams in Korea, with a pretty decent drop-off after those four. EU was just G2 stomping fools because of literal 0 competition, and NA had a similar problem of once the top 3 teams were decided (TSM, CLG, C9) the drop-off to the last 7 teams was so massive that the top 3 could only get better by scrimming each other, which can only get you so far.
Right now I'd argue that, in terms of overall league strength, it's Korea > China = NA > EU, with LMS and LCL probably in the nebulous area of, "better than EU but worse than NA." And sure, you might think me crazy for thinking that China's top teams are about as equal as the top NA teams, but this group stage so far makes me think that - in an ideal world where both regions have their teams in good health, good cooperation, good pick/ban and a good read on the meta (all things that can vary WILDLY) - the skill level of the players is about equal and we would probably see a lot of trading of games back and forth.
That sounds harsh, but in prior years it used to be Korea >>>>> China >>> NA = EU, with LMS and LCL also in that nebulous area of, "about as equal to NA and EU." The gap has closed, but now we have to see if the infrastructure put into place in TSM, C9, and CLG holds in the off-season, and if other teams start to pick it up and have it's players focus more on scrim/practice schedule and less on streaming.
Its TSM
Gap
IMT/CLG/C9
Gap
The rest
I don't want to said it but RNG get stomped 3 times by Samsung twice and splyce, at least tsm has close games.
The gap between TSM and C9/CLG/IMT isn't as big as perceived. TSM's flaws weren't in any way tested or targeted in NA. Taking nothing away from TSM, they are a good team. It's just still not Korean level; the fact they were heavily limited by the level of opponent they could scrim with throughout summer limited growth. Plus, coach/analyst failures in P/B; Jayce isn't a great pick unless going with other strong poke. Zilean is very bad in current meta. TSM is best playing towards a pick comp but even play towards their strength.
I think all of TSMs major flaws of this tournament are much more fixable than CLG or C9 s. They really need a OGN winter invite where they can get in a ton of matches that crisp up the P&B and get Bio into the form of properly managing double's positioning. If not they will need luck, or will continue to lose even to teams that looked, IMO, 5% or so worse than them (RNG) overall.
Yes and no. Hauntzer, while useful, would still be significantly better as Impact; Hauntzer is a good serviceable player but nothing more. Doublelift still has his default problems that we saw on CLG; aka split pushing too far and valuing win lane-win game too much. He's still the best or second best NA ADC, but he looks less than stellar on Ezreal, Sivir and Jhin while lacking strong out of meta side options. Biofrost's champion pool and depth looks crucially lacking. They lack the ability to play a wide range of comps and suffer because the Jhin ban seriously hampers their ability to win. Other than Svenskaren's Lee Sin, there are no player specific bans required allowing teams to target core team comp components.
If I were the coach, Biofrost would need to add Nami, Alistar, Brand, Zyra and Kennen. Bjerg and DL need to add Varus. Hauntzer needs to add Ryze and Trundle. Everyone needs to assess summoners (cleanse mid) and build paths (especially in response to game situation).
In the long run, I don't think Hauntzer and DL are fixable; Hauntzer is the more likely of the two to be though I think. All that said, this world's meta was not very good for TSM; it's far from the worst possible, but it's also in no way up TSM's alley. IMO, the real failure at this worlds is China. This meta should be perfect for them, but their teams have managed to look really bad.
DL I definitely agree on, his derping is just part of who he is. I need to see a lot more haunter to say he is a lost cause. IMO he is much better at the role (which is pretty much the same) than mouse or trace.. I could see him (if there was an international invitational that was season-long) being a looper level consistent, but not carry, toplaner. But he will never really get that chance because he literally just faces Impact.
Not to mention that with the current roster, if there was any chance of him developing into an international level carry top the team would have to prioritize that over players the likes of Bjerg and Double.
On October 11 2016 00:05 Yorbon wrote: FIx meteos and smoothie while they're at it.
I'm literally just praying for Sneaky to carry and get at least 1 win on the board. I have tickets for that day and while I'm happy to see the NA team, I also don't want to see a 3-0 blowout.
On October 10 2016 12:11 Gahlo wrote: H2K lucking so hard this tourney.
they got 1st seed there was 0% chance they get any kr team or edg
Yeah, but to have they have possibly the weakest #2 seed(I don't believe in ANX in a BoX yet) in their quarter finals matchup and the weakest semi final opponent possibilities. There is no easier road to the finals in that draw except maybe swapping C9 and ANX.
It was bound to happen sooner or later. The top seed from the group that has zero Korean teams historically has always gone far since the tournament format change to four groups in Season 4. With the way Riot Games allocates the groups, and the number of Korean teams attending, the first placed team in the group with zero Korean teams is almost guaranteed a safe passage to the semi-finals, assuming all Korean teams finish first in their group (which is not a wild assumption to make since every single Korean team has managed that since the format change in Season 4, with the sole exception of KOO Tigers). They had a one in three chance of drawing ANX.
With the paucity of truly meaningful international competition, and Riot's avoidance of double elimination formats, it is near impossible for one single tournament with its current format to truly reflect the standings of all the teams around the world. Perhaps H2k lucked out more so than others, but it was within the realms of possibility with the way things are set up. When was the last time you thought the top four standings at the World Championship (the placement I think H2k is most likey to achieve) accurately portrayed the top four teams of the world?
I'm all for tournament placings being designed in order to most accurately reflect the strengths of various teams, but the international competitive landscape would need a complete overhaul to match that specific need. It's a pipe dream with the way things are.
Your argument is circular. If you start by assuming that all first seeds will beat all second seeds in QFs, and then also assume that Koreans claim 3 of the 4 first seeds, then no shit, the semifinals will be made up of 3 Korean teams and one first seed that came from a group without Koreans.
The point of Worlds isn't to crown second place, third place, or fourth place. A single elimination tournament will only ever guarantee a worthy first place team. Even a double elimination tournament only guarantees the correctness of first and second place. And both of those are only true if you assume transitivity, which is obviously not the case in League. So unless you want Worlds to be a Bo8 quadruple round robin between all 16 teams, you're always going to run into this scenario of some teams having luckier draws than others. That's life. If you want to be champ, you gotta beat everyone in your path. TSM drew the single toughest group out of any other team in the tournament and have to go home, even though they looked far stronger than H2k.
My argument stems from history. SHRC from Season 4. Fnatic from Season 5. H2k from Season 6. These are all teams that got placed in the group without Korean teams, and were good enough to place first in it. Only Fnatic had a one in three chance of drawing KOO Tigers due to their under performance during the group stages, and even if beating the second placed team in groups is not a given, it's a path that has reaped rewards for teams good enough to benefit from it.
Luck of the draw comes with tournament formats. Yes, double elimination doesn't single handidly remove that luck, but it helps. Is it worth the hassle? Personally speaking, I always felt double elimination rewards excellence more so than single elimination, but it's all about compromise. I don't want Riot Games to clog up the international schedule with extensive round robin between all the international teams in existence, but we don't have to go that far. Don't ridicule my statement by taking it to the most extreme measure. We've seen ways implemented that lessen the luck of the draw in other e-Sports titles, whether it's by having more major international tournaments (you can't roll the dice the way you want multiple times), or having double elimination formats. Are these perfect solutions that resolve all these issues? No. Will they help paint a better picture of the relative strengths of international teams so that these discussion involving TSM, or H2k have more substance behind them? I think so.
You may think the current status quo may be fine, and it's quicker to accept the reality of the situation rather than wanting improvements, but that's where you and I differ. Please don't bother answering unless you want to see how these improvements (in my eyes) can be implemented, or how these solutions cause more problem than they fix (such as scheduling problems, but there's always a middle ground), but if you are just going to say, yeah things could be better, but things are fine the way they are, and cliches such as that's life, suck it up, just don't.
Its funny to see people cry about groups when groups are fairer than ever. Famous "Chokers" were 5-3 (0-1 Tiebreak) with semi-finalist Fnatic and notoriously clutch Gambit (admittedly with shitter Voidle who probably cost them a semi with SKTT1).
Since then no team over .500 has failed to make it through, including 4 teams .500 making it (only 2 required tiebreakers!).
EPT
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