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On October 03 2015 06:44 MajorityofOne wrote:While we're talking about Monte can I just take a second here to quote the most insightful poster on LiquidLegends Show nested quote +On October 02 2015 23:05 LimpingGoat wrote:
Who is ready for Monte to make his shit analysis for KT vs. TSM and then for it to be visibly proven ignorant immediately following. Carry on nothing to see here
He has a point though. TSM is easily the best team at Best of 5s at World's and even if TSM can't win any games in groups, it won't matter once TSM shows their true form in the bracket stage.
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According to a recent interview by FW, Western teams > Korean teams except for SKT.
At the same time, the teams the top Korean players went to are losing to Western teams, also.
It is worth while now to think about what the state of the game in LoL actually is. The fact that second-tier Korean teams are only at/below the level of top Western teams shows that when it comes to talent, it is only a small group at the top that was crushing the competition. Second-tier Koreans haven't been able to rise to the opportunity the way people thought. Korean infrastructure hasn't been able to easily replace lost talent and the best Korean team at the event, SKT, is where they are only because they managed to avoid the talent loss the best.
At the same time, China's plan to obtain that small group of players, didn't work very well. Besides EDG, the other top Chinese teams have not been able to drastically raise their level of play internationally. A few Korean players on these teams look well enough, but others not so much. For example, Imp and Rookie played above the level of their team mates, but Kakao and Acorn did not. Whether China would've been able to match up this year without the imports is difficult to say. In the past they've always performed well against Western teams, but it is also the case that the Western team this year are at a higher level than before. One has to wonder what exactly is going on in Chinese LoL that they've managed to fall behind even after importing the best players in the world in 2014. Were they going to become a second-tier group without Korean imports, and in case that is so, why, when they have such a large amount of money and players in LPL?
On the Western end, teams have obviously improved, but off of what? For Fnatic, we could say that it's because of their smart team changes, and even the Korean imports, but then what do we say about Origen and CLG? Both of those teams are made up of only native NA/EU players. Quite obviously, and against the case of China, EU/NA LCS have been able to raise their level of play without going the import road. Has EU/NA infrastructure drastically improved? There hasn't been any obvious changes that'd be relevant, so the easier explanation is simply that Western teams have decided to try harder than previous years, and have made smarter changes to their teams.
Obviously, it's still too early to say what is going to occur being that it is only the second day of group. But already the idea that Asian teams and players are on a different tier than Western teams and players has been cast out. The loss of Korea's top talent to China has not had the effect of making China the obviously top country at LoL, but has rather had the effect of lowering the skill level of Asia as a whole, such that the rest of the world has now caught up. Mass imports thus do not look to have the benefits that they're made out to be, but at the same time, does the world have China to thank for finally making LoL a game in which no one country is able to control the top?
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Uh pretty sure TSM has a korean on their team and other teams in the LCS regions imported talent. Yeah the local talent got better but its not like they've been just getting better on their own.
I don't know if I buy LCS>LCK/LPL just yet. If the way things are going continue though I don't see how you can't.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
with every big intl event there's a meta that develops througout the tourney, and different teams have different learning curves about it. give it a couple more games
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Korean imports in the West have been much less successful than in China though a lot of that is due to the quality of talent. Out of TSM, CLG, and C9, only one has a Korean player and he's been in NA for years, and his team is presently doing the worst out of the three. Out of H2K, Fnatic, and Origen, there are three Korean imports, which is also isn't a lot when put besides IG, EDG, and LGD, which have six. EU and NA also just doesn't have a lot of successful Korean imports on average this year. Teams such as TiP and Liquid, which are full of Korean imports, did not do well when put besides the teams with less. Only Fnatic has managed to make theirs work.
Thus, I'd say that while Korean imports did help improve the level of competition, they were not central to the improvements of LCS teams. And as we see with China, having top Korean players without bringing the local talent up to level isn't enough. Had Fnatic just been about their imports, they'd have lost, badly, to iG. Just the same, H2K's weaker local players has hurt them badly when put beside Origen and Fnatic. The best EU/NA LCS players are able to stand up to top international players. The Korean imports support but do not carry the local players in these teams.
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Man, LDG's teamcomp was terrible. Who drafts two hard engages (Vi/Malphite), with Lulu as your only major other source of burst? That's a recipe for disaster if your team doesn't get megafed. This is worse than NA drafting. That's before we talk about the actual laning matchups.
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LGD's draft screams that they heavily underestimated OG
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United States37500 Posts
That's just speaking in retrospect. The comp was obviously designed around Imp's Kog. Although TBQ shat the bed, Acorn did fine.
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United States47024 Posts
IG alone actually has 7 Korean imports it's just they can't have all of them play, lol.
On October 03 2015 10:39 NeoIllusions wrote:
That's just speaking in retrospect. The comp was obviously designed around Imp's Kog. Although TBQ shat the bed, Acorn did fine.
Acorn's only fault is that the teamcomp is somewhat out of what's strong for the current version. As much as people questioned whether Marin could play carry tops, it's actually just an equally valid question for Acorn, it's just that it's never actually been relevant because LGD has a proficient carry top laner player that they sub in.
Whether LGD's performance will change on subbing in Flame (or even if they'll sub him in at all) remains to be seen. Though a cursory assessment would suggest that the current top lane champion pool is not...kind to Acorn.
Also, stubbornly adhering to playing a style that's out of favor due to personal proficiency with it (then losing because of it) is like the LGD-est possible thing to. I approve.
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A western team hasn't beaten a korean team at this tournament yet. No NA team has beaten a LPL or LCK team yet. The early results have been pretty awesome for the west in general, but lets not start singing the witch is dead so quickly. The gap doesnt appear to be what it was vs the Samsungs which means there's hope for some deeper runs
The good news is several western teams have set themselves up pretty well to qualify for the bracket stage. CLG doesn't need to do anything mind blowing to qualify and KOO looks beatable. Fnatic wrecked what in theory was the hardest team in the group. It's early but it'd be pretty surprising if those two didnt make the ro8.
After that, the western teams chances get a bit murkier. Origen upsetting LGD was an amazing moment, but they've still got a viciously hard group. The rematch vs LGD will be huge. H2K is hopeless, they're a fine team but they got hosed by seeding. C9 we'll find out a LOT tomorrow vs IG. TSM got beat pretty bad and again, that group is murder.
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I was watching IG vs FNC again. Damn. FNC made IG look like an IWC team.
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On October 03 2015 10:44 MajorityofOne wrote:
A western team hasn't beaten a korean team at this tournament yet. No NA team has beaten a LPL or LCK team yet. The early results have been pretty awesome for the west in general, but lets not start singing the witch is dead so quickly. The gap doesnt appear to be what it was vs the Samsungs which means there's hope for some deeper runs
The good news is several western teams have set themselves up pretty well to qualify for the bracket stage. CLG doesn't need to do anything mind blowing to qualify and KOO looks beatable. Fnatic wrecked what in theory was the hardest team in the group. It's early but it'd be pretty surprising if those two didnt make the ro8.
After that, the western teams chances get a bit murkier. Origen upsetting LGD was an amazing moment, but they've still got a viciously hard group. The rematch vs LGD will be huge. H2K is hopeless, they're a fine team but they got hosed by seeding. C9 we'll find out a LOT tomorrow vs IG. TSM got beat pretty bad and again, that group is murder.
Isn't it pretty bad right now? FW won against KOO, so CLG has to win against FW again or they have to win against KOO.
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On October 03 2015 10:51 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 10:44 MajorityofOne wrote:
A western team hasn't beaten a korean team at this tournament yet. No NA team has beaten a LPL or LCK team yet. The early results have been pretty awesome for the west in general, but lets not start singing the witch is dead so quickly. The gap doesnt appear to be what it was vs the Samsungs which means there's hope for some deeper runs
The good news is several western teams have set themselves up pretty well to qualify for the bracket stage. CLG doesn't need to do anything mind blowing to qualify and KOO looks beatable. Fnatic wrecked what in theory was the hardest team in the group. It's early but it'd be pretty surprising if those two didnt make the ro8.
After that, the western teams chances get a bit murkier. Origen upsetting LGD was an amazing moment, but they've still got a viciously hard group. The rematch vs LGD will be huge. H2K is hopeless, they're a fine team but they got hosed by seeding. C9 we'll find out a LOT tomorrow vs IG. TSM got beat pretty bad and again, that group is murder.
Isn't it pretty bad right now? FW won against KOO, so CLG has to win against FW again or they have to win against KOO.
Well they all play each other again so its still possible for a team to lose every game from then on.
Also while I agree that its a bit too early to say something like LCS >LCK/LPL it is important to note that KT believed in OG and EDG rated FNC as highly as the other chinese teams/telecoms and said people need to watch out for CLG. Scrims are obviously telling a story of at least close competition
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On October 03 2015 10:51 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 10:44 MajorityofOne wrote:
A western team hasn't beaten a korean team at this tournament yet. No NA team has beaten a LPL or LCK team yet. The early results have been pretty awesome for the west in general, but lets not start singing the witch is dead so quickly. The gap doesnt appear to be what it was vs the Samsungs which means there's hope for some deeper runs
The good news is several western teams have set themselves up pretty well to qualify for the bracket stage. CLG doesn't need to do anything mind blowing to qualify and KOO looks beatable. Fnatic wrecked what in theory was the hardest team in the group. It's early but it'd be pretty surprising if those two didnt make the ro8.
After that, the western teams chances get a bit murkier. Origen upsetting LGD was an amazing moment, but they've still got a viciously hard group. The rematch vs LGD will be huge. H2K is hopeless, they're a fine team but they got hosed by seeding. C9 we'll find out a LOT tomorrow vs IG. TSM got beat pretty bad and again, that group is murder.
Isn't it pretty bad right now? FW won against KOO, so CLG has to win against FW again or they have to win against KOO.
When I say they don't have to do anything mind blowing I mean they have to beat Pain and FW again. Yeah FW is no joke but CLG should be favored to win that game.
The way I wrote this I guess I made it sound like a total cakewalk, which its not.
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On October 03 2015 10:56 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2015 10:51 Sufficiency wrote:On October 03 2015 10:44 MajorityofOne wrote:
A western team hasn't beaten a korean team at this tournament yet. No NA team has beaten a LPL or LCK team yet. The early results have been pretty awesome for the west in general, but lets not start singing the witch is dead so quickly. The gap doesnt appear to be what it was vs the Samsungs which means there's hope for some deeper runs
The good news is several western teams have set themselves up pretty well to qualify for the bracket stage. CLG doesn't need to do anything mind blowing to qualify and KOO looks beatable. Fnatic wrecked what in theory was the hardest team in the group. It's early but it'd be pretty surprising if those two didnt make the ro8.
After that, the western teams chances get a bit murkier. Origen upsetting LGD was an amazing moment, but they've still got a viciously hard group. The rematch vs LGD will be huge. H2K is hopeless, they're a fine team but they got hosed by seeding. C9 we'll find out a LOT tomorrow vs IG. TSM got beat pretty bad and again, that group is murder.
Isn't it pretty bad right now? FW won against KOO, so CLG has to win against FW again or they have to win against KOO. Well they all play each other again so its still possible for a team to lose every game from then on. Also while I agree that its a bit too early to say something like LCS >LCK/LPL it is important to note that KT believed in OG and EDG rated FNC as highly as the other chinese teams/telecoms and said people need to watch out for CLG. Scrims are obviously telling a story of at least close competition
We should also point out that the top western teams competing with top (cept SKT/EDG so far, we'll see) asians doesn't make the NA or EU LCS stronger than the LCK or LPL. Not to overstate the strength of the 4-7 ranks in LPL or LCK, theyre not world beaters or anything, but they're also not the Unicorns of Love or Team Dignitas.
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On October 03 2015 10:39 NeoIllusions wrote:
That's just speaking in retrospect. The comp was obviously designed around Imp's Kog. Although TBQ shat the bed, Acorn did fine.
I don't think it is speaking in retrospect, if I wasn't at work I probably would have said it was a terrible comp immediately after the draft. If you're drafting around the Kog, why do you have a Malphite and a (tank) Vi to try to deal with the Kalista? You don't need two low damage, long range engages when you have a Kog'Maw, when both of the champions have almost no utility aside from that. You can't even deal with one threat effectively, let alone the rest of the enemy team.
Trying to use the Kog'Maw to overcome a glaring weakness in your team is not the same as designing a comp around the Kog.
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I think the SKT vs BKT game is amazing casting wise.
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I'm worried about clg beating FW a 2nd time if Zion can't get it together. I've been a huge Zion fan forever, you guys know this, but he got carried by his team so far
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United States899 Posts
It was worlds excitement/nerves, probably. Normally that would be a problem, but we have Coach Chris and a few days till next games. He'll get it together, I'm sure. Hell, even though it was just Pain, he already looked better today
Very satisfied with DL and Pob stepping up, we just need the rest of the team to perform up to par and we're good.
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Worlds screws with my bets, but i don't even care. It's shaping up to be a pretty interesting story lines for all the teams involved in most of the groups. SKT T1 still seems to be the team to beat, and I assume they might pull out Easyhoon sooner or later.
Don't know what's going on with the Chinese teams at all. I would not have expected LGD to ever drop that game to Origen. It is really crazy
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EPT
