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Zyra, Rise of the Thorns
![[image loading]](http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Zyra_0.jpg)
Zyra's one of my favourite champs and quite strong in solo queue. She's good on any team comp and can play any position outside of ADC. I've been playing her for about a year now and I have roughly 100 games in ranked at a high gold level. I prefer playing her in mid or support due to her low ms, low base defensive stats, and reliance on vision. If you need more AP, DPS, CC, or a champ that can out-dps the ADC from support, Zyra is the way to go.
Summoner Skills:
Passive Rise of the Thorns + Show Spoiler [stats] +RANGE: 1500 Upon death, Zyra returns to her plant form for up to 8 seconds. After 2 seconds, she gains the ability to cast Vengeful Thorn using any learned ability. Rise of the Thorns VENGEFUL THORN - ACTIVE: Zyra spits a vengeful thorn in the direction of the cursor, dealing 80 + (20 x Zyra's level) true damage to every enemy it passes through. This ability is a pain to pull off and rather easy to dodge. It's cast time is quite long and the direction it'll fire is very telegraphed. You'll want to wait a second after you die before using your passive or you'll be less accurate. If you wait until you die and your plant spawns the cast time is shorter and will allow you to be a bit more accurate.
Q Deadly Bloom + Show Spoiler [stats] +RANGE: 800 COST: 75 / 80 / 85 / 90 / 95 MANA COOLDOWN: 7 / 6.5 / 6 / 5.5 / 5 ACTIVE: After a short delay, thorns sprout from the ground at a target location dealing magic damage to enemies within the area. MAGIC DAMAGE: 70 / 105 / 140 / 175 / 210 (+ 65% AP) Rampant Growth.png RAMPANT GROWTH: If Deadly Bloom hits a seed, a Deadly Bloom Thorn Spitter grows that lasts for 10 seconds. Thorn Spitters have a long ranged attack and deal 23 + (6.5 × Zyra's level) (+ 20% AP) magic damage. This ability also has a bit of a cast time so it's wise to anticipate where the enemy might dodge to by leading them or simply using it when they go to last hit. Outside of Zyra's plant damage, this is her main form of poke and her long range farming ability.
W Rampant Growth + Show Spoiler [stats] +RANGE: 850 COST: 1 SEED RECHARGE TIME: 16.7 / 15.4 / 14.1 / 12.9 / 11.7 PASSIVE: Zyra gains bonus cooldown reduction. COOLDOWN REDUCTION: 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 / 10% Zyra periodically stores a seed and can hold up to 2 at a time, and can only have 4 seeds placed at any one time. ACTIVE: Zyra plants a seed at a target location for 30 seconds, granting sight of a small area around it. After 1.5 seconds, enemy champions can step on a seed to destroy it - but will be revealed for 2 seconds. If one of Zyra's basic abilities hits a seed, a plant will grow that automatically attacks nearby enemies. Extra plants striking the same target deal 50% less damage.
Plants have a modified HP bar and take modified damage from abilites. Their HP doesn't change throughout the game nor does the damage they take.
Auto-attacks from minions and monsters deal 1 damage. Auto-attacks from champions deal 2 damage. Area of effect abilities deal 3 damage. Single target abilities deal 4 damage. DragonSquare.png Dragon's attacks deal 4 damage. Turrets deal 6 damage. Smite and Consume deal 6 damage. Most of Zyra's damage comes from her plants. They have low base damage and low AP scaling which is why building flat magic penetration is so important to Zyra's early game. One trick that's easy to execute is placing a seed after you use one of your abilities. Since her deadly bloom and grasping roots have a cast time it's easy to place the seed after you've cast the spell. Placing the seed second makes it harder for the enemy to dodge or anticipate the damage.
Seeds also give vision of an area for 30 seconds and have a longer cast range than do wards. Because of this you can ward tribrush from the dragon pit and long distance scout brushes before warding them.
Additional plants will deal 50% less damage to the same target. Meaning the first plant will deal 100% damage while plant 2 and 3 and so on will deal 50%. You can have up to 4 seeds out and up to 8 plants active at a time with full cdr. This allows Zyra to be super effective at soloing baron and dragon with proper setup and a Liandry's Torment combined with the slow from Vine Lasher.
The priority of attack for your plants isn't known. From what I can tell, the priority typically goes: Target Zyra has marked with an AA > closest enemy champ that has stayed in range of the plant and has immediately attacked the plant > closest enemy champ for one attack then switches to enemy minions. The take away is, Zyra needs to auto the enemy once to mark them for her plants to continually auto them down. If she doesn't and there are minions in range they'll likely switch to the minions.
You can use plants to block skillshots as well. It's rather difficult to do since her snare is rather slow and her Q has a cast time. It's still possible to preemptively anticipate where a skillshot will land and use a plant to block it.
E Grasping Roots + Show Spoiler [stats] +RANGE: 1100 COST: 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90 MANA COOLDOWN: 12 ACTIVE: Zyra sends vines forward in a line, dealing magic damage and rooting enemies hit for a short duration. PROJECTILE SPEED: 1150 MAGIC DAMAGE: 60 / 95 / 130 / 165 / 200 (+ 50% AP) ROOT DURATION: 0.75 / 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 Rampant Growth.png RAMPANT GROWTH: If Grasping Roots hits a seed, a Grasping Roots Vine Lasher grows that lasts for 10 seconds. Vine Lasher have a short ranged attack that deals 23 + (6.5 × Zyra's level) (+ 20% AP) magic damage and Slow icon slows enemies hit by 30% for 2 seconds. This ability is pretty strong as it's a root that can pass through minions. The downside is its root duration and and its missile speed is rather low. The easiest way to land this ability is from the FOW, from inside brush, or as a counter engage.
R Stranglethorns + Show Spoiler [stats] +RANGE: 700 COST: 100 / 120 / 140 MANA COOLDOWN: 130 / 120 / 110 ACTIVE: Summons the fury of nature, growing a twisted thicket at the target location which deals magic damage to all enemies in the area as it expands. After 2 seconds, the vines snap upward Airborne icon knocking enemies into the air for 1 second. MAGIC DAMAGE: 180 / 265 / 350 (+ 70% AP) Rampant Growth.png RAMPANT GROWTH: Plants within the thicket are enraged, increasing their attack speed by 50%. The AOE on this ability is huge and you can easily hit an entire team with it. It's somewhere in the ballpark of an Amumu ult in terms of size, but since the knockup takes 2 seconds to activate it's a better tool to disengage with than engage. The knockup takes 2 seconds to proc, but the damage is applied upfront which makes your ult a decent execution ability.
You can destroy an entire minion wave with a full combo including your ult which can take the enemy by surprise. If there's a large minion wave pushing towards you and you land your grasping roots, immediately combo with deadly bloom, rampant growth, and strangle thorns. The grasping roots will hold the enemy into place long enough to either force a flash from the knockup or land the knockup and kill them. You won't likely have enough burst to 100-0 the enemy unless you're super fed, but they won't have much hp left after you land a full combo. One more deadly bloom is usually enough to finish off a squishy target after a full combo.
Playstyle: + Show Spoiler [Support Laning] + Poke with your q-w combo and keep the lane warded. If you're doing your job the lane will be consequently be pushed and the enemy jungler will gank the lane. You can use your seeds as temporary wards, although they don't last long or give much vision.
Most of the laning phase consists of poking with q-w. A good way to always land your snare is to hide in the brush and throw it so the enemy can't see the windup animation. Try to estimate where the enemy will move to when they see you wind up your snare and throw it there. Generally speaking, you should wait to use your snare as a disengage for a jungler or reactively as it's easier to land than proactively trying to land it. When it does land, go all in and ult. A full e-q-w-r combo should take an enemy atleast from 100% to 25% hp considering plant damage. You might even get a solo kill if you add ignite into the mix.
+ Show Spoiler [Mid/Top Laning] + Playing mid/top Zyra is a lesson in survival. Sure, you can out trade the enemy early on using her range. Her q harass is really easy to land and does respectable damage. Keep in mind, you're Zyra, you have the lowest move speed in the game and lower base hp than Sona. There's no point in going overly aggressive in lane and even less of a point in trying to land a snare. The only time you ever want to use your snare is when the jungler comes to gank you. I assure you, the jungler will come to gank you. When he does, you're also going to want atleast one seed to lay down with your snare so you can slow an enemy during your retreat. Your job in lane is simply to farm up and not die. That's all you have to do. If you're able to stay fairly even in lane and you don't die, you win the game. If you're against an assassin, use your q to farm from long distances.
+ Show Spoiler [Jungle] +Jungle Zyra is super fun! Despite the low HP she can do close to a full clear without a leash. It is a little tricky and requires some finesse to accomplish. When you get a regular pull things go much smoother and you'll be able to gank easier. Your skill order will be R>Q>E>W. There's no reason to level up W second with jungle Zyra since she'll be building Magus enchant fairly early and the 20% cdr will reduce the time it takes to recharge her seeds. There's only one reasonable choice for a jungle item and that's Stalker's blade. You could go for Ranger's Trailblazer but it's overkill. You'll never take much damage in the jungle past level 2 since her plants will tank most of the damage and her Q is on a low enough cool down to quickly clear the jungle. Stalker's will also apply a slow which will double your Liandry's damage. Blue side Blue buff startThis is probably the best start she can get. She'll be able to gank after wolves or after red buff. In the video I cleared as quickly as I could, but keep in mind your seed charges. The more charges you have the less damage you will take. She can easily do red buff without taking as much damage as I did. Another advantage you have is how your mid/top laner don't need to help you leash and can start in lane which will deny the enemy information on your starting location. Alternatively, you can save your smite for red buff rather than using it on wolves to stay healthier and gank directly after taking red. Red side Blue buff start On the red side you can't pull the blue buff around the corner and leash it that way so you'll be forced to face tank it and blow all your pots at the first buff. It'll go a little better if your bot lane helps you, but don't expect miracles. You can try kiting to mitigate some of the damage but it's not really worth it. Again, if you do it properly, you can gank after wolves or red buff. Blue side Red buff start This route is basically the same for both sides. Except on Red side you'll have to tank a few hits on the blue buff in order to get the max damage out of your plants. It's worth noting how I mess up the pull on blue. It's very important to make sure the minigolems don't get pulled before the large golem or he'll get stuck on one of the small ones and get reset. In these clears, you should particularly notice how I tank the jungle monsters so my plants can deal as much damage as possible before I let them start tanking. I place the seedling just behind me so I can immediately switch aggro to them when I need to. Also, since using two plants at the same time will decrease the damage from the second plant, I try to always only put one plant down at a time. Another aspect to keep in mind is how all autos are weighted the same against Zyra's plants. This makes the small Golem's autos equal in strength to the large Golem and hence the Gromp and Krugs are the easiest camps to clear. I use the generic rune page for these clears but a stronger rune page for early clear speed would be flat AD marks, flat armour seals, flat AP glyphs, with flat AP quintessences. The runes I used scale better and give stronger ganks though. No one really knows what to expect from a Zyra jungle. She's definitely underestimated. As such use this to your advantage. Her clear times are unlike any other jungler. Therefore laners won't expect your gank timings. Zyra's gank are particularly potetent since she doesn't need to land her snare to get a kill. Of course, it's optimal if she does. However her vine lasher plants will continually proc a slow or at the very least create a strong zone of control to block off a reasonable escape route. Her AA range is very high along with having one of the more crisp AA animations allowing her to proc red buff frequently and easily. You should always be wary of counter junglers. Good vision control through proper warding is a pretty basic concern all junglers should have. On top of that, I suggest keeping your E off cd so you have a reliable peeling tool for escapes. Another thing to keep in mind is pulling the wolf and raptor camp closer to the lanes so if you do get counter jungled you're closer to a tower and safety.
+ Show Spoiler [Team Fighting/Post Laning Phase] + This is where Zyra shines. The differences between which lane or position you take her is a bit of a moot point. It goes without saying, but if you're top Zyra, you have to do top laner things. Push out side waves, set up side waves to push into the enemy tower, and communicate teleport cds. Support has to ward things. Jungle has to smite things. Mid has to take blue buff and push out waves.
Other than that, she basically serves the same purpose. She's a CC machine with mediocre burst and strong magic based DPS. Her optimal combo for highest damage is e-w-w-q-r. You want her snare to hit the seeds to create vine lashers to slow the enemy and proc Liandry's double damage passive(if you don't have a Rylai's). You also want your ult to hit your plants which double their attack speed. Her team fighting is a lot like her laning. Use q-w combos to poke at the enemy. If Liandry's procs once it'll do significant damage no matter who it hits. One thing to keep in mind is enemy flash potential. Since Zyra is all skillshots that are either slow moving or highly telegraphed. It's not uncommon to see someone flash your full combo. If you see someone charging in your direction, it doesn't hurt to q-w combo them first and wait till they're on top of you to use E. Sometimes they'll see the Q skillshot and flash it while your snare is still off cd. It's very difficult to flash a point blank snare. When the enemy decides to engage or commits to a fight, it's your opportunity to land a multiperson ult. Her ult is one of, if not, the best disengage tools in the game. It's about 1400 range in diameter and provides a 1 second AOE knockup. You don't want to try to start fights with your ult. It's best used as a counter engage since the knockup effect takes a full 2 seconds to happen.
You can also use your plants as zoning tools in the middle of choke points or to keep a jungler from attempting a dragon steal. Plants last a full ten seconds, and vine lashers apply a 30% slow that lasts 2 seconds. Zyra has some of the strongest zoning potential in the game because of this.
Summoner Spells:
Take flash every game.
Ignite is my favourite bot lane spell. With iginte you'll be able to 100-0 the adc if you land all your spells. If not, you'll come really close.
Teleport for top lane, no exceptions..
Heal is probably the best spell for mid lane. Zyra scales so well and has such low ms and hp it's tough to justify taking ignite over heal.
This spell has its merits in mid and bot. If you prefer using exhaust against assassins rather than heal.
Barrier is a super niche spell. It works while being CCed and the shield you gain isn't mitigated by grievous wounds, unlike heal. If these are concerns of yours take it in mid lane.
Masteries:
+ Show Spoiler [Mid Lane Masteries] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pVOuwXG.png) Alternatively you can switch Runic Affinity for Alchemist if you don't think you'll ever get blue buff. You always want 3 points in Fleet Foot because Zyra has the lowest move speed in the game.
+ Show Spoiler [Support Masteries] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KlenY3w.png) You simply switch from 9 points in utility to 9 in defense since the support should almost always be the one initiating battles in bot lane. You also won't need runic affinity or mana regen from utility as much. In any event, taking more than 9 points in utility is a noob trap on any champ. Don't let the Koreans fool you, it's wrong to do it! Just say no. If you want a more indepth reason as to why, you can ask in the comments.
+ Show Spoiler [Top Lane Masteries] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4nymLSN.png) Basically the same as mid lane except moving the point from runic affinity to Summoner's Insight to reduce the cd on Teleport. You could also move a point from meditation to alchemist/culinary master. I just don't prefer it. I'm a strong independant plant lady that doesn't need help from consumables.
+ Show Spoiler [Jungle Masteries] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3ZObCLz.png) Shouldn't be a shocker, she needs some defensive stats to handle clearing the jungle.
Skill Order: Her general skill order goes R>Q>W/E. You want to skill from level 1-6 with QWEQQR in every position. Although her snare is only .75 second during invades or if you absolutely need to you can skill it first or second.
I don't have a preference between W or E. I typically stagger them when I level. E gives you a longer root duration the more points you invest. While W gives you cdr while also decreasing the time it takes to recharge a seed. On the one hand root duration is awesome. On the other you might be spamming seeds for vision and harass. If you're caught with no seed charges and your team goes in for a fight or you get engaged upon, a significant portion of your damage will be missing.
Runes:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AdXrBlT.png) You can't go wrong with a generic rune page like this. Alternatively you could switch out the MR glyphs for Scaling AP if you're a straight baller or facing a heavy AD team.
Build Order: Get these items.
![[image loading]](http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130319091852/leagueoflegends/images/b/b5/Zhonya%27s_Hourglass_item.png) ![[image loading]](http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130710101719/leagueoflegends/images/f/fd/Liandry%27s_Torment_item.png)
Sometimes you'll want one or the other first. These are core and there's no exceptions to prioritizing these items early on in the game. Here are some other items that are important or strong on Zyra in no particular order, Sightstone, Ruby Sightstone, Sorcerer boots, Rylai's Crystal Sceptor, Spellthief's Edge, Frostfang, Chalice of Harmony, Athene's Unholy Grail, Morellonomicon, Rabbadon's Deathcap, Voidstaff, and Banner of Command.
+ Show Spoiler [Support] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JkmxZnv.png) Here's a recent support build. You want to get your Frost Fang asap. Zyra should never have a problem proccing the gold generation passive every time it's up. The vast majority of your damage comes from your plants. Your plants, along with your entire kit, have pretty low AP ratios. Which means, rush penetration. A great second damage item for Zyra is Rylai's. It doubles your Liandry's poke damage and gives all your plants a slow. It gives you the flat hp to be a quasi front line for your ADC. The Rylai's/Liandry's combo on AP DPS champs is just ridiculously strong. Alternatively, you could skip finishing the Liandry's or skip Rylai's and go into an Hourglass if you're worried about getting blown up. Most importantly, never finish the Frost Queen's Claim. It hasn't been a good item since they raised the price. The extra AP is negligible and you don't need the cdr on Zyra. You're much better off leaving it as a Frost Fang and getting your flat pen/hp from Haunting Guise and Sorcerer boots.
+ Show Spoiler [Mid/Top/Jungle] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hagSjkB.png) Here's a recent mid game. I'm a big fan of Chalice vs AP mids and never upgrading it until you get your core damage items. The idea behind this build is similar to support. You want to rush flat penetration. I built a Void Staff instead of a Rylais because the Void Staff will give you higher burst damage. Of course, build accordingly, sometimes you'll want to rush amrguard/hourglass for AD mids. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZLtUFtI.png) Here's a recent top lane game. I finished off my Hourglass first because I got a blue buff off the enemy Ziggs early on; after that my jungler gave me all the blues since I was on blue side. If we hadn't snowballed the game so hard or I was on red side; I would've built a Chalice or second Doran ring after A`rmguard. You might want to start Flask and pots rather than Doran ring depending on how much brawling you feel the enemy will want to do. I also strongly recommend building Hourglass first before a Haunting Guise so you can survive AD bruisers, ganks, and tower dives. Against AP tops, I recommend getting Haunting Guise then going directly into Hourglass so you can survive ganks better. Jungle Zyra isn't wildly different from top/mid. Machette into Stalker's Blade into Sorcerer's boots into Magus Enchantment into Haunting Guise/Hourglass. You get your boots 2 first because it'll make your ganks much more effecient. Zyra ganks are frightening and the faster you can get around the map the better. The Magus enchantment is simply too good to resist. You get 80AP and 20% cdr for 1500 gold, less than a Needlessly Large rod. While keeping your seed charges always up.
Edit: Added summoner spells. Edit: Reformatted the guide a little, removed patch notes because they don't matter, and added the Zyra splash.
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Which ADCs do you like to pair support Zyra with? Against which bot lane pairs would you prefer to pick Zyra? Are there particular matchups where you wouldn't pick Zyra? I like the utility she offers, but playing her in a lane where you're the ones shoving feels really risky when you're such a squishy and immobile champ. Would you ever consider Mobi boots over Sorcs? Similarly, do you take Ignite or Exhaust?
Thanks in advance!
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I always run ignite as support, heal mid, and teleport top. Although there'e something to be said for exhaust for mid and bot when the enemy team has assassins. I'll add that to my post.
I don't like supporting Twitch since it's difficult for him to trade effectively early game. Nor do I like support Ezreals typically because Ezreal players are people who don't play ADC and just want to poke with their mystic shot all day. I prefer playing with aggressive ADCs since it's a lose-lose situation if the enemy ever want to fight us. If they focus my ADC they're ignoring my damage and the same goes vice versa.
As far as bad matchups go, the only time I've ever felt completely helpless and inferior was when I went against a Brand support. He out-ranged me and out-damaged me by quite a bit. Then there's the popular Leona/Graves botlane everyone's been running lately. It's rather annoying but not impossible. I suppose Thresh would be a better support pick since he can flay Leona out of her zenith blade.
The only reason you would get mobis would be to get deep wards down faster. She can't really use the MS the same way a Thresh, Ali, or Leona can to set up engages or make picks. I'd be surprised if their zenith blade and death sentence weren't significantly faster with a larger hitbox than Zyra's root. If you can make that work though, go for it.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Well, since I used to main Zyra for quite a while.
I always max R>E>Q>W. Also poking with Q/W is quite nice but remember that plants gives free gold. I'll always want to land W>E (root + slow from plant) then land Q/W combo. Pretty much half the hp in early stages of the game. Once your adc follow, that's an easy kill or at least flash/heal burned.
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1. What I usually do as support is maxing Q until the laning phase seems to end soon (usually around lvl 3 Q), then max E. You want Q in lane for better poke/trades, but you want E in teamfights for better cc. So a good standard is Q -> W -> E -> Q -> Q -> R -> E max.
2. One can make the usual argument against frostfang (It's gold inefficient). I'm not a fan of Frost Queens on Zyra (not enough movement speed to use it for engagements), so I often go only with Spellthiefs.
3. I like to go Haunting Guise -> Rylai's -> Liandry's, or at least Haunting Guise -> Giant's belt -> Liandry's for additional safety if needed. You actually don't lose much (if any) damage by going Rylais before finishing Liandry's.
4. You may run defensive masteries (0/16/14) for a focus on early trading.
5. You can run some manareg glyphs (I often run 4), and you should run hyprid pen marks (you lose ~2 magic pen and get way stronger autos for laneing). Moreover you can use general adaptions to bot lanes low on magic damage (e.g. vs Vayne/Janna) by taking more manareg glyphs, or scaling mr glyphs, or armor glyphs, or AP glyphs. I like scaling mr the most.
6. I usually play no ap runes at all. Instead I take armor quints and health yellows. Combining that with defensive masteries you can trade really well and you do a lot of damage anyway. You can play AP quints just fine though.
Some additional stuff I'd like to see in the guide:
*Writing something about warding would be good. Zyra is slow and squishy, so going in to deep into the opponent's jungle is very risky. The question here is how far can/should you go at what time/situation?
*How to act/position in teamfights?
*Why Zyra and not other, similar ap supports (Vel'Koz)? (There are already answers for that in the Vel'Koz thread)
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Did they fix the bug with Haunted Zyra's plants not attacking correctly?
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You can easily make a case to level E first or second on support Zyra. When I first started playing Zyra I used to level up E first with only one point in Q. I don't think it's efficient. You severely hamper your poke early game. If plants make up 50% of your damage, deadly bloom makes up the other 30-40%. Her E is also a slower skillshot than a Morg Q and I wouldn't be surprised if it had half the hitbox in size. Vine lashers also only have a 400 attack range, so if you don't land the snare it's not difficult for the bot lane duo to walk past them and zone/all-in you.
I think there's a much stronger case for leveling it up second as it does give stronger cc. I go over the pros of leveling W or E first in the guide. It's up to you which you prefer and what you're trying to provide for your team.
As far as hybrid runes go, I don't like them on most laners. I've tried it before on a number of champs like Annie, Zyra, and LeBlanc and I just don't like what it provides. When I look at the post game screen and I see I've dealt 2,000 physical damage to enemy champs and I've dealt 20,000 magic damage I don't see the advantage of hybrid runes. In and out of lane it just seems like my damage is overall lower.
Deep warding is overrated in solo q. I find the best way to ward is to ward one step ahead of your team rather than 2. For example, if I take bot lane tower and go mid, I immediately ward the plateau near wraiths and the opposite side of the river. Or if we're pushing bot and their tower is down, I'll ward the tribrush and the space to the left of golems(unless I see enemies on the map, then you go in and ward the brush). Or conversely you ward the 4 way intersection between to the top right of blue buff.
The take away is, I'm not solo warding anything without being 3-4 seconds away from my team. Deep warding isn't a great idea in solo q when you don't know if your team will even use them properly. And of course, if you're dead set on warding their red buff during laning phase. You have your snare, slow, and to help self peel.
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On January 19 2015 01:22 Sonnington wrote:
Deep warding is overrated in solo q. I find the best way to ward is to ward one step ahead of your team rather than 2. For example, if I take bot lane tower and go mid, I immediately ward the plateau near wraiths and the opposite side of the river. Or if we're pushing bot and their tower is down, I'll ward the tribrush and the space to the left of golems(unless I see enemies on the map, then you go in and ward the brush). Or conversely you ward the 4 way intersection between to the top right of blue buff.
The take away is, I'm not solo warding anything without being 3-4 seconds away from my team. Deep warding isn't a great idea in solo q when you don't know if your team will even use them properly. And of course, if you're dead set on warding their red buff during laning phase. You have your snare, slow, and to help self peel.
Hey, why not just stop warding at all when you never know if your team will use them properly?...That reasoning makes no sense at all.
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On January 19 2015 02:13 Prog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2015 01:22 Sonnington wrote:
Deep warding is overrated in solo q. I find the best way to ward is to ward one step ahead of your team rather than 2. For example, if I take bot lane tower and go mid, I immediately ward the plateau near wraiths and the opposite side of the river. Or if we're pushing bot and their tower is down, I'll ward the tribrush and the space to the left of golems(unless I see enemies on the map, then you go in and ward the brush). Or conversely you ward the 4 way intersection between to the top right of blue buff.
The take away is, I'm not solo warding anything without being 3-4 seconds away from my team. Deep warding isn't a great idea in solo q when you don't know if your team will even use them properly. And of course, if you're dead set on warding their red buff during laning phase. You have your snare, slow, and to help self peel. Hey, why not just stop warding at all when you never know if your team will use them properly?...That reasoning makes no sense at all.
I don't think your comment has much merit and I've explained my position thoroughly. Would you like to contest the importance of risky deep warding in solo q without your team's help?
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I've heard that it's technically possible to block collision skillshots (Morg, Thresh, or Blitz Q are the ones I'm most concerned about) with a reflexive EW (supposedly QW takes too long). Have you had any personal experience/success with this? I'd like to try it as a way to safely poke against otherwise very dangerous initiations, it would be a cool counterpick.
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On January 19 2015 03:34 MidnightGladius wrote: I've heard that it's technically possible to block collision skillshots (Morg, Thresh, or Blitz Q are the ones I'm most concerned about) with a reflexive EW (supposedly QW takes too long). Have you had any personal experience/success with this? I'd like to try it as a way to safely poke against otherwise very dangerous initiations, it would be a cool counterpick. Yeah you can. I've done it before, but I play at 120 ping on NA and EUW. I'm smack dab in the middle of the two and it's ridiculously difficult for me to pull off. It's only really effective if I place the plant directly infront of me or extremely close. Zyra's E missile speed is 1150, which is 50 slower than Morgana's Q and 650 slower than Bltiz' Q. While Thresh is somewhere in the middle of the two with a long windup animation.
So you have to factor in Morg and Blitz' rather quick animation, average human reaction speed of .25 seconds, your ping, your own windup which is about equal, how far it is you have to place the plant away, and how far away blitz/morg are from their target. That's why I say it's best used if you predict the skillshot or only reactively if they're targetting you and you place the plant directly infront of you.
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You are crazy not to take Hybrid Pen on Supp (hell even Mid lane in certain match ups) IMO. Extra AA damage is very welcome in those early trades. Zyra also has higher than average AA range (575), so you get a lot of mileage out of it, and you have to AA to get your plants to function as you want.
Also that comment on deep warding. What?!
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On January 19 2015 03:26 Sonnington wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2015 02:13 Prog wrote:On January 19 2015 01:22 Sonnington wrote:
Deep warding is overrated in solo q. I find the best way to ward is to ward one step ahead of your team rather than 2. For example, if I take bot lane tower and go mid, I immediately ward the plateau near wraiths and the opposite side of the river. Or if we're pushing bot and their tower is down, I'll ward the tribrush and the space to the left of golems(unless I see enemies on the map, then you go in and ward the brush). Or conversely you ward the 4 way intersection between to the top right of blue buff.
The take away is, I'm not solo warding anything without being 3-4 seconds away from my team. Deep warding isn't a great idea in solo q when you don't know if your team will even use them properly. And of course, if you're dead set on warding their red buff during laning phase. You have your snare, slow, and to help self peel. Hey, why not just stop warding at all when you never know if your team will use them properly?...That reasoning makes no sense at all. I don't think your comment has much merit and I've explained my position thoroughly. Would you like to contest the importance of risky deep warding in solo q without your team's help? If it's risky then don't mindlessly suicide into the woods in hopes of placing a deep ward. It doesn't matter if your team doesn't use it, you can and should just ping if you spot something of interest from it. If anything deep warding is underrated in soloq.
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On January 19 2015 07:41 JazzVortical wrote: You are crazy not to take Hybrid Pen on Supp (hell even Mid lane in certain match ups) IMO. Extra AA damage is very welcome in those early trades. Zyra also has higher than average AA range (575), so you get a lot of mileage out of it, and you have to AA to get your plants to function as you want.
Also that comment on deep warding. What?!
Lots of people take magic pen over hybrid. It honestly doesn't make much difference. At level 2 against someone with 35 armour, you'll do less than 3 extra damage per auto with hybrid pen runes. Hybrid pen will often be slightly better in lane, but magic pen will always be better as the game goes on.
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On January 19 2015 09:16 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2015 07:41 JazzVortical wrote: You are crazy not to take Hybrid Pen on Supp (hell even Mid lane in certain match ups) IMO. Extra AA damage is very welcome in those early trades. Zyra also has higher than average AA range (575), so you get a lot of mileage out of it, and you have to AA to get your plants to function as you want.
Also that comment on deep warding. What?! Lots of people take magic pen over hybrid. It honestly doesn't make much difference. At level 2 against someone with 35 armour, you'll do less than 3 extra damage per auto with hybrid pen runes. Hybrid pen will often be slightly better in lane, but magic pen will always be better as the game goes on.
Yeah it'll do 42 damage instead of 39 damage, which is a nearly 10% damage increase.
While magic pen will make her Q do 65 damage instead of 62.
So as long as you are AAing in lane more than once for every Q hit, hybrid pen is out damaging magic pen.
Looking at probuilds though, I'm not seeing Hybrid Pen on any Zyras. Maybe plant damage is OP.
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I could show my match history and how roughly 5% of my damage to champs is physical. That could be a biased source though. I figured I'd take the highest rated Zyra main who coincidentally has the most Zyra games played on NA. He also has a larger sample size of games to look at.
http://quickfind.kassad.in/profile/na/wwwmetaweedcom/
From his last 8 Zyra games the total damage he dealt to champions that was physical ranged from 2.2% to 16.33%. On average he dealt 6.7% of his total damage to enemy champs as physical damage. I find it ridiculous to spend efforts trying to ramp up your 7% of total damage output.
I'd rather increase my 93% magic damage output by .5-1% than increase my 7% physical damage output by a maximum of 5%. To give an example. If I deal 21,500 damage in a game, 20,000 magic and 1,500 physical that's pretty close to a 93-7% split. If I increase my physical damage by 5%, I'll have dealt an extra 75 damage. If I increase my magic damage by .5%, I'll have dealt an addition 100 damage.
The only time I'd ever consider taking hybrid runes would be on a champ like Evelynn or maybe Kayle. Champs that actually have 50-50 splits on magic/physical damage. Even 30-70 I'd consider taking hybrid runes. Especially if you factor in jungle creeps' armour. But if we're talking a 7-93 split, get out of here with that garbage.
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On January 19 2015 10:29 Sonnington wrote:I could show my match history and how roughly 5% of my damage to champs is physical. That could be a biased source though. I figured I'd take the highest rated Zyra main who coincidentally has the most Zyra games played on NA. He also has a larger sample size of games to look at. http://quickfind.kassad.in/profile/na/wwwmetaweedcom/From his last 8 Zyra games the total damage he dealt to champions that was physical ranged from 2.2% to 16.33%. On average he dealt 6.7% of his total damage to enemy champs as physical damage. I find it ridiculous to spend efforts trying to ramp up your 7% of total damage output. I'd rather increase my 93% magic damage output by .5-1% than increase my 7% physical damage output by a maximum of 5%. To give an example. If I deal 21,500 damage in a game, 20,000 magic and 1,500 physical that's pretty close to a 93-7% split. If I increase my physical damage by 5%, I'll have dealt an extra 75 damage. If I increase my magic damage by .5%, I'll have dealt an addition 100 damage. The only time I'd ever consider taking hybrid runes would be on a champ like Evelynn or maybe Kayle. Champs that actually have 50-50 splits on magic/physical damage. Even 30-70 I'd consider taking hybrid runes. Especially if you factor in jungle creeps' armour. But if we're talking a 7-93 split, get out of here with that garbage.
The thing is, the damage you're doing in the first 5 minutes of the game is disproportionately more important than the damage you're doing in the other 30.
Especially on a Support.
But I can see an argument for magic pen on Zyra, because plants do magic damage. Lot of pro Zyra players seem to run Mpen quints too.
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What I really need is someone with the API to find out how much she does on average for all players. Or since it's more important early on how much she does from level 1-5.
In any event, apparently the third best Zyra world, deals 7.38% physical damage on average in the past 9 games of Zyra. The top 2 Zyra's didn't have recent Zyra games.
http://quickfind.kassad.in/profile/kr/꽃으로강타해요/
It's rather safe to say Zyra deals roughly 93% magic damage.
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On January 19 2015 09:25 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2015 09:16 GolemMadness wrote:On January 19 2015 07:41 JazzVortical wrote: You are crazy not to take Hybrid Pen on Supp (hell even Mid lane in certain match ups) IMO. Extra AA damage is very welcome in those early trades. Zyra also has higher than average AA range (575), so you get a lot of mileage out of it, and you have to AA to get your plants to function as you want.
Also that comment on deep warding. What?! Lots of people take magic pen over hybrid. It honestly doesn't make much difference. At level 2 against someone with 35 armour, you'll do less than 3 extra damage per auto with hybrid pen runes. Hybrid pen will often be slightly better in lane, but magic pen will always be better as the game goes on. Yeah it'll do 42 damage instead of 39 damage, which is a nearly 10% damage increase. While magic pen will make her Q do 65 damage instead of 62. So as long as you are AAing in lane more than once for every Q hit, hybrid pen is out damaging magic pen. Looking at probuilds though, I'm not seeing Hybrid Pen on any Zyras. Maybe plant damage is OP.
Basically what I said; hybrid pen will often be slightly better in lane, but meg pen will always be better as the game goes on. In general, if you have a magic to physical damage ratio of 4:1, hybrid pen will break even.
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I have 9 mpen reds and 6mpen blues. I do this because I rush mpen items as my first buys - after sightstone. I've got 42 mpen with all of that together, letting me do stupid damage to anybody who hasn't bought mres yet.
Only time I'd run hpen runes would be against a melee support or short range adc who is easy to AA.
Side note: I find that many zyra supports will build frost queen's claim after sightstone and waste so much potential for early-mid game damage. I don't understand the reasoning behind rushing the item.
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On January 19 2015 11:49 canucks12 wrote: I have 9 mpen reds and 6mpen blues. I do this because I rush mpen items as my first buys - after sightstone. I've got 42 mpen with all of that together, letting me do stupid damage to anybody who hasn't bought mres yet.
Only time I'd run hpen runes would be against a melee support or short range adc who is easy to AA.
Side note: I find that many zyra supports will build frost queen's claim after sightstone and waste so much potential for early-mid game damage. I don't understand the reasoning behind rushing the item.
That's a really interesting point you bring up. The lower a target's MR is the more important flat pen becomes.
For instance, if an enemy has 50MR they'll have 33.33% damage reduction from magic. If that's reduced by 2 to 48MR they'll have 32.43% damage reduction with a difference of .9%. While a champ with 10MR will have 9.09%(9.1%) damage reduction and a champ with 8MR will have 7.4% damage reduction with a difference of 1.7%.
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On January 19 2015 11:49 canucks12 wrote: I have 9 mpen reds and 6mpen blues. I do this because I rush mpen items as my first buys - after sightstone. I've got 42 mpen with all of that together, letting me do stupid damage to anybody who hasn't bought mres yet.
Only time I'd run hpen runes would be against a melee support or short range adc who is easy to AA.
Side note: I find that many zyra supports will build frost queen's claim after sightstone and waste so much potential for early-mid game damage. I don't understand the reasoning behind rushing the item. Hey guys, I consider zyra(support) my main , i'm currently at dia v with around 200 games of zyra at 63%winrate which is the lowest it's been, highest was 68-70% at around 80 games played. I use standard AP runes (no hybrid pen) but I don't think runes matter that much, I also usually go 9/0/21 masteries, but for item build the way I usually build determines on how much gold I have on backs. if I have 800 g on first back I get sight stone, if not I get frost fang + pots/wards into sight stone. Then I go for mobi boots. Core items end up being: Sight stone, frost fang ,mobi boots After that I build into either frost queens claim or haunting guise and it just depends on how much gold i have on back, if I can buy haunting guise in one go ill do it, if not I'll usually just build frost fang first, since I'd rather have a codex than ruby crystal + amp tome . I used to actually always leave frost fang to upgrade to my last item just like you too until I realized I just wasn't utilizing the on use to it's fullest.Either forgetting to use it or not using it optimally.
The on use of frost queens claim is actually really good and can make it really easy to set up Claim>root>plants+ult with ignite and some help from your team that will bone someone. I think a lot of people don't use the active enough so it seems useless, it's an 80% slow with long range and it's aoe with a 60 second cool down. You're still support so you are supposed to bring some utility, if you use your root to catch someone you still have the on use to peel a melee from your adc. It also helps you get away because zyra mobility sucks which is the same reason I build mobi boots so you can ward without getting boned every second. Also great for running a team down to pick up kills.
So next items end up being: frostqueen/liandrys Afterwards I usually build into void staff or rylais depending on how squishy I feel and how much money I have on backs. Last item usually Rabadons, not a big fan of zhonyas on zyra I usually like to encourage the enemy team to waste abilities/ ults on me, I can't count how many games I've won because people forget I'm the support not mid laner and dive me for a kill while I still get all my damage off + my passive, then it's an easy clean up for the team.
I personally prefer her as a support, she has a lot of weaknesses(actually just the same weaknesses become compounded when you aren't support, low mobility/squishy) played in other roles but definitely can still be fun.
one good tip is use your W seeds to ward bushes ahead of you since they have a higher range than sight stone to avoid face checking . Sorry for the disorganized rambling ;x.
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That's interesting, I'll have to try finishing off Frost Queen's at some point. The active synergizes with Liandry's too. I have to ask, why you prefer codex over amp tome and ruby crystal? One of my favourite parts about getting the Guise early is the hp build path allowing you to take more damage before going down.
On an unrelated note, with all the peer pressure about Frostfang being a bad item I tried leaving my Spelltheif's unupgraded recently. We were snowballing the lane, although I don't attribute that to an earlier sightstone. Especially since the jungler was Evelynn. But where I really started to feel the impact was past level 6. The extra 25% mana regen is a lot more noticeable mid-late game than it is in lane. The Frostfang is the only reasonably mana regen item support Zyra will buy and the earlier you get it the more cost efficient it becomes.
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On January 18 2015 16:06 MidnightGladius wrote: Which ADCs do you like to pair support Zyra with? Against which bot lane pairs would you prefer to pick Zyra? Are there particular matchups where you wouldn't pick Zyra? I like the utility she offers, but playing her in a lane where you're the ones shoving feels really risky when you're such a squishy and immobile champ. Would you ever consider Mobi boots over Sorcs? Similarly, do you take Ignite or Exhaust?
Thanks in advance!
A season or so back C9 was famous for there botlane Ashe/Zyra and I still to this day enjoy the combo. Its extremely powerful and the amount of CC you have is insane not only in lane but when transition to midgame or picking up baron/dragon. That kind of power out of your bottom lane is rare and with the combination its still pretty good in my opinion.
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On January 22 2015 01:18 MurphyJayGaming wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2015 16:06 MidnightGladius wrote: Which ADCs do you like to pair support Zyra with? Against which bot lane pairs would you prefer to pick Zyra? Are there particular matchups where you wouldn't pick Zyra? I like the utility she offers, but playing her in a lane where you're the ones shoving feels really risky when you're such a squishy and immobile champ. Would you ever consider Mobi boots over Sorcs? Similarly, do you take Ignite or Exhaust?
Thanks in advance! A season or so back C9 was famous for there botlane Ashe/Zyra and I still to this day enjoy the combo. Its extremely powerful and the amount of CC you have is insane not only in lane but when transition to midgame or picking up baron/dragon. That kind of power out of your bottom lane is rare and with the combination its still pretty good in my opinion.
I like playing with Vayne, Caitlyn or Corki. Vayne is good because she fights well and can really jump on them when you land your e. You can also zone for Vayne very well and it makes her lane much easier. Caitlyn just because we poke the crap out of them. Corki for the same reason. Quinn works surprisingly well with Zyra as well.
The absolute worst adc that I've found to play with is Twitch. Everything sucks about laning with Twitch as Zyra. Also really don't like laning with Tristana.
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irritating your enemy botlane 101:
plants can block skillshots. you will want to use it mostly for predictive purposes: -let's say you see an opening to QW someone in lane. let's say it's Thresh. plant the Q where it would hit Thresh while putting the W in front of Thresh. If Thresh tries to hook reactively, it may hit the plant instead -let's say Thresh is hiding in a bush and you fully expect him to attempt a hook from that bush. a QW onto and in front of Thresh or Q (or E) W in front of his intended target (the mana burning way) might get you a block instead -sometimes the enemy botlane will not kill a plant. this allows you to approach and harass further using the plant as cover against skillshot retaliation
learn precisely where tower range ends. unless they enemy botlane is already hiding by their tower, you want your plants just out of tower range so that the tower won't one shot them once they grow. this can force the enemy botlane to either wait them out or spend autos killing them, possibly taking more damage in the process
plants will get one attack off on an enemy champion while spawned, then probably autoattack minions or something. to keep plants shooting the enemy champions like you want them to, either autoattack the champion yourself after your poke or set situations so that the plants have no choice but to attack the enemy champions, which they will do.
irritating everyone else 101:
Liandry's plant warding step 1: get liandrys/rylais/mpen step 2: QW where you expect enemies to pass, preferably enemies that don't have lifesteal or high regen. basically treat it as a low duration teemo shroom that shoots stuff with high range step 3: watch as the enemy AP carries are hopefully chunked before the next skirmish or teamfight
seeds grant vision and have higher range than wards. great if you don't wanna even get within warding range of a bush or if you don't have wards left
i very highly recommend getting mobility aids for warding. as zyra your dueling potential is basically nothing and you are the slowest thing on the map. consider: MS masteries, MS quint(s). Mobi boots, Mpen boots + MS enchant
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Some crucial brushes should actually be checked with your snare and not with plants. That is safer because of the additional range. Plant checks won't safe you from a lot of cc.
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