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[Champion] Karthus - Page 9

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ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-26 02:05:11
December 26 2011 02:04 GMT
#161
Oh like anyone that can burst you for over 1/2 your hp is pretty much a stiff counter. With Ahri out now it's even harder. I'd say bad matchups are Ahri/Cass/LB/Kass/Xerath and it's why you haven't seen much of Karth mid lately.

Buildwise it doesn't matter TOO much... you're gonna do a ton of deeps almost regardless, as long as you have spellvamp and some ap items that make sense you're looking good.
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
December 26 2011 02:11 GMT
#162
Can't you just hang back and basically take their harass out of it though with Q? Or will good players abuse that. I simply don't know cause of the low level I play at but whenever I play vs one of those chars I can just farm and play a bit passive and pick up kills/assists with my ult and unless they are wandering in other lanes I will have more then them. And not feeding those chars (esp LB) makes them seem a bit UP late game in my observations (Xerath I don't have much exp though but Dat range makes him super annoying at all times).
Never Knows Best.
Vei
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2845 Posts
December 26 2011 02:56 GMT
#163
On December 26 2011 11:04 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Oh like anyone that can burst you for over 1/2 your hp is pretty much a stiff counter. With Ahri out now it's even harder. I'd say bad matchups are Ahri/Cass/LB/Kass/Xerath and it's why you haven't seen much of Karth mid lately.

Buildwise it doesn't matter TOO much... you're gonna do a ton of deeps almost regardless, as long as you have spellvamp and some ap items that make sense you're looking good.

i've never tried spellvamp seriously on karth, i'll give it a shot. yeah Ahri looks really fun, I haven't really played since she was added.
www.justin.tv/veisc2 ~ 720p + commentary
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
December 26 2011 03:00 GMT
#164
I think vs cass is alright. Can't really stop you from farming. Only bad matchups I have had are leblanc, and post-6 kass/akali. Akali not too big of a deal though.

I guess Talon is probably a similar situation to akali.
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
December 26 2011 03:18 GMT
#165
I've never ever lost a lane as hard as I lost Karth vs Xerath and it's why I kinda stopped maining him AP mid
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
December 26 2011 04:07 GMT
#166
haha that makes sense

anyways i just got unofficial penta (sooooo close to official penta) with karth playin with plats! so kewl
SupaLuv
Profile Joined December 2011
4 Posts
December 26 2011 05:16 GMT
#167
I agree the new champs are pretty much hard counters to Karthus. I guess you will just have to play it safe and tower hug. But again, Elementz still has Karthus ranked in tier 1 because of his global ult that can initiate and finish people. Furthermore, he provides more utilities to a team with the wall of pain.
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-26 07:49:18
December 26 2011 07:47 GMT
#168
His damage potential vs multiple targets simply makes him awesome and the wall is just icing on the cake so he will always be solid. Xerath though I agree is a mother fucker but no one plays him at my elo except me and a couple others.
Never Knows Best.
MyTHicaL
Profile Joined November 2005
France1070 Posts
December 27 2011 01:54 GMT
#169
My thoughts on archangels cemented and will rest unchanged, I did try the spell vamp (u said to beable to 1v1 pretty much any1) and honestly its a great idea provided I get the farm... Good core edition. Kind of going sorc shoes, roa, hex tech revolver, zhonya's (fuck do i love this item... as soon as team fights start its just sooo godly, obviously I will unfortunately skip this if the opposing team is very ap orientated), and then whatever I feel I need. Revolver is a nice cheap pick up.

And yeah I recently was crushed by a decent xerath mid... Didn't originally realise how badly this hero counters karthus. Not quite sure how to counter him, I don't even know if there is a build that would counter him except maybe tankarthus which is pretty retarded IMO (but I have seen it work- played by others, but then not vs xera...)
I guess a solution is to simply ban the mofo if u have 1st pick/plan on playing karthus.
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
March 26 2012 17:17 GMT
#170
Karthus Jungle style.

Smite and flash

magic pen reds. armour yellows. ap/level blues, ap quints.

start cloth armour 5 pots and take a point in q

get blue and go clear camps toggling pools and spaming q. buy some boots when you can afford them

get a point in the wall for your ganks.

Get a mana gem item, catalyst or tear.

then you're free to go for RoA, Archangles, Deathcap, Voidstaff, later in game sell the cloth armour for chain vest and buy Zhonya's, just build what ever items you want after the mana gem item but if catalyst go RoA ASAP.

You're Karthus, so feel free to die in team fights and still do all your damage.
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6213 Posts
July 12 2012 07:43 GMT
#171
Alright. I've been playing karthus a lot more recently since froggen decided to play nothing but karthus for a day. I open much the same as on ryze with boots+3 into either a catalyst or a tear depending on the lane and deviate from there.

I've taken to not helping at all with wolves/wraiths and taking the enemy big wraith over the wall at 1:40 before running to leash blue after seeing reginald do it. If top lane/bot lane help with wolves/wraiths it's generally alright IMO since it sets the enemy jungler somewhat behind and it puts you at a decent advantage early game. I've taken to grabbing the big wraith against most blue starting junglers at their first spawn at 1:40 and the third spawn at ~4:20 after I've pushed the lane. It's early enough in the game that they shouldn't have the wraiths warded and it's safe to steal it plus most junglers have just finished their first full clear and are in fountain or making their way to wolves/doubles.

I've only got about a dozen games or so on karthus so I'm curious. Because of defile's passive mana return and the first two items karthus generally builds, mana regen isn't necessary on karthus. Obviously tear first is optimal if you're allowed to get away with it but catalyst -> tear -> RoA or just cata-> RoA, putting off the tear until much later. Once it hits lategame karthus is obviously a beast but how much does the lack of a fully charged tear-> AA impact karthus's lategame? I've never failed to build a tear on karthus since he charges it so quickly but I haven't had any insanely hard lanes yet (kassadin is a bitch but it's tolerable)

Also post-6, I generally don't follow my lane unless I catch them moving somewhere early (seeing them at baron/dragon area) and instead just push mid and take all the wraiths, relying only on karthus's ultimate to assist. It'll only do ~275-285 damage before resists to everyone so it's not huge but it's usually enough. I'm wondering though. I generally ulti the second someone in someone in another lane hard initiates onto someone else whether it's a jungle gank, taric stun or whatever. Is it worth blowing the cooldown for the assist gold or attempted save on a teammate or should I wait until someone gets away with low health which might or might not happen?
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
July 12 2012 08:38 GMT
#172
AA and tear are completely unnecessary in my opinion, you need the sustain from catalyst if you want to be competitive with most mids nowadays, and tear/AA aren't as strong as Rylais/Deathcap/Zhonya's/WOTA in utility (and obviously Deathcap is more dmg). Choosing between Void Staff and AA late game would be nice, but it's hard to determine early in the game if you're going to need the pen or if you can go full damage. The nice thing about catalyst is that sometimes you can just hold it for a Banshee's in certain matchups and rush Rylais. I can't really think of many matchups where I would build tear first anymore. Since they buffed passive mp5 and nerfed mp5 runes a long time ago and retooled the mastery trees I think Karthus has been pretty good on mana with just Cata/blue if you manage correctly and bluepill at the right times. Karthus has really forgiving bluepills because the champs he has trouble with can't usually take towers extremely fast and you can just blow all your mana shoving a wave and be back before they miss you.

9/0/21 with exhaust/flash, flat ap/mpen/flat ap/scaling ap and a boots + 3 opening is where it's at right now in my opinion.
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6213 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-12 09:33:07
July 12 2012 09:32 GMT
#173
I don't believe karthus needs blue in lane since defile gives mana back. If you're just last hitting, you're pretty much mana positive. The reason you go AA+tear is that combo'd with a RoA and charged up, it's absurdly cost-effective in terms of the AP it gives you.

karthus has ~1350 mana at level 18, 725 from RoA, up to 1400 from AA. 45+105 = 150 AP, before deathcap is factored in. If you can live with the tear and get it built, it gives massive amounts of damage. Putting into perspective, this is more AP than a second deathcap would give you.

I might play karthus differently than you because I personally build

Boots
RoA
AA
Dcap
Hourglass
Voidstaff

since his job is to do as much damage as possible before dying and then die in the enemy team with defile up and ulti. I don't see why you need a particularly large amount of survivability on karthus. WotA especially I find useless on karthus since spellvamp is worthless if you're dead. The only survivability item I'd ever get on karthus is an abyssal since that synergizes very well with the suicide karthus idea.

As far as matchups go, against anything without 100-0 possibility if I'm playing correctly I build a tear first. Anivia and orianna are two champions that I dont' feel pressured into going catalyst first against.

My opinion is that since karthus generally runs mpen+AP all the way in runes, there's no point in not going all the way for damage on him and going 21/0/9.
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
July 12 2012 09:59 GMT
#174
I think it's just a slight difference in our styles, then. I play a bit more of a utility Karthus that can actually tank huge amounts of damage and focuses more on pushing and engaging favorably with mass slows from Rylai's and w than picking a spot and winning a fight. I like being able to initiate without feeling like I'm going to all-in and be able to use Karthus' retarded lategame damage vs towers after fights, and the reason I like wota is because coupled with the innate vamp in the utility tree and the amount of HP I have from cata item + rylai's it actually becomes very tricky to judge what will kill me when I do decide to all-in. I feel like AP is trumped by survivability on the second to the last item choice in particular, because Rod/Rylais/boots/Deathcap is pretty much standard no matter which style you choose, and there's definitely a flexibility aspect that goes into it which all higher-level games incorporate. I'll give the old tear-cata a try next time I'm playing a matchup I think I can get away with it. I kind of abandoned it in favor of rylai's midgame because you just become so stupidly overpowered when you can wall->land every q, but there's something to be said for wall->kill with q before slow wears off, too.
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
NEOtheONE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2233 Posts
July 12 2012 21:03 GMT
#175
What no one else goes boots first into Needlessly large rod? It's probably not viable anymore since there are a lot of hard counters to karthus, but when you aren't fighting any of those, it is great for some really oppressive ults early in the game and fast pushing mid so you can gank more.
Abstracts, the too long didn't read of the educated world.
Perplex
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1693 Posts
July 12 2012 21:12 GMT
#176
On July 12 2012 17:38 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
AA and tear are completely unnecessary in my opinion, you need the sustain from catalyst if you want to be competitive with most mids nowadays, and tear/AA aren't as strong as Rylais/Deathcap/Zhonya's/WOTA in utility (and obviously Deathcap is more dmg). Choosing between Void Staff and AA late game would be nice, but it's hard to determine early in the game if you're going to need the pen or if you can go full damage. The nice thing about catalyst is that sometimes you can just hold it for a Banshee's in certain matchups and rush Rylais. I can't really think of many matchups where I would build tear first anymore. Since they buffed passive mp5 and nerfed mp5 runes a long time ago and retooled the mastery trees I think Karthus has been pretty good on mana with just Cata/blue if you manage correctly and bluepill at the right times. Karthus has really forgiving bluepills because the champs he has trouble with can't usually take towers extremely fast and you can just blow all your mana shoving a wave and be back before they miss you.

9/0/21 with exhaust/flash, flat ap/mpen/flat ap/scaling ap and a boots + 3 opening is where it's at right now in my opinion.


Can you elaborate on your mastery choice? Why do you prefer utility?
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/24238059
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6213 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-03 10:22:40
September 03 2012 10:22 GMT
#177
On July 13 2012 06:12 Perplex wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2012 17:38 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
AA and tear are completely unnecessary in my opinion, you need the sustain from catalyst if you want to be competitive with most mids nowadays, and tear/AA aren't as strong as Rylais/Deathcap/Zhonya's/WOTA in utility (and obviously Deathcap is more dmg). Choosing between Void Staff and AA late game would be nice, but it's hard to determine early in the game if you're going to need the pen or if you can go full damage. The nice thing about catalyst is that sometimes you can just hold it for a Banshee's in certain matchups and rush Rylais. I can't really think of many matchups where I would build tear first anymore. Since they buffed passive mp5 and nerfed mp5 runes a long time ago and retooled the mastery trees I think Karthus has been pretty good on mana with just Cata/blue if you manage correctly and bluepill at the right times. Karthus has really forgiving bluepills because the champs he has trouble with can't usually take towers extremely fast and you can just blow all your mana shoving a wave and be back before they miss you.

9/0/21 with exhaust/flash, flat ap/mpen/flat ap/scaling ap and a boots + 3 opening is where it's at right now in my opinion.


Can you elaborate on your mastery choice? Why do you prefer utility?


Most likely MS, gp10, CDR and summoner spell cooldown (Maybe experience?) It's actually pretty decent in hard lanes since it keeps you relevant even if you fall behind and having exhaust up more often is always nice but you lose out on the 21st point in offense which synergizes so well with your ultimate.

Also, now that wall got nerfed so hard, I've given up on levelling wall second. It was ridiculous how strong it was prepatch at level 9-13 when you could wall every time the cooldown was up and take 50% of your opponent's healthbar with minimal repercussions. It's still worth taking a point in it at level 8 IMO to get the slow and wall size strong enough to deny entry into important spots around the map but I just leave it at two points and level defile since the slow is extremely strong and the wall size is big enough at that point.

Anyone else want to share insight on skilling on karthus?
Shiv.
Profile Joined January 2011
3534 Posts
September 03 2012 14:48 GMT
#178
On September 03 2012 19:22 Lmui wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2012 06:12 Perplex wrote:
On July 12 2012 17:38 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
AA and tear are completely unnecessary in my opinion, you need the sustain from catalyst if you want to be competitive with most mids nowadays, and tear/AA aren't as strong as Rylais/Deathcap/Zhonya's/WOTA in utility (and obviously Deathcap is more dmg). Choosing between Void Staff and AA late game would be nice, but it's hard to determine early in the game if you're going to need the pen or if you can go full damage. The nice thing about catalyst is that sometimes you can just hold it for a Banshee's in certain matchups and rush Rylais. I can't really think of many matchups where I would build tear first anymore. Since they buffed passive mp5 and nerfed mp5 runes a long time ago and retooled the mastery trees I think Karthus has been pretty good on mana with just Cata/blue if you manage correctly and bluepill at the right times. Karthus has really forgiving bluepills because the champs he has trouble with can't usually take towers extremely fast and you can just blow all your mana shoving a wave and be back before they miss you.

9/0/21 with exhaust/flash, flat ap/mpen/flat ap/scaling ap and a boots + 3 opening is where it's at right now in my opinion.


Can you elaborate on your mastery choice? Why do you prefer utility?



Anyone else want to share insight on skilling on karthus?

I've done the same after they nerfed his wall, used to level up W and E simultaneously. Now I just go QWEQ with a second level in W at 8 and leave it there.
currently rooting for myself.
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-03 20:34:57
September 03 2012 20:33 GMT
#179
On September 03 2012 19:22 Lmui wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2012 06:12 Perplex wrote:
On July 12 2012 17:38 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
AA and tear are completely unnecessary in my opinion, you need the sustain from catalyst if you want to be competitive with most mids nowadays, and tear/AA aren't as strong as Rylais/Deathcap/Zhonya's/WOTA in utility (and obviously Deathcap is more dmg). Choosing between Void Staff and AA late game would be nice, but it's hard to determine early in the game if you're going to need the pen or if you can go full damage. The nice thing about catalyst is that sometimes you can just hold it for a Banshee's in certain matchups and rush Rylais. I can't really think of many matchups where I would build tear first anymore. Since they buffed passive mp5 and nerfed mp5 runes a long time ago and retooled the mastery trees I think Karthus has been pretty good on mana with just Cata/blue if you manage correctly and bluepill at the right times. Karthus has really forgiving bluepills because the champs he has trouble with can't usually take towers extremely fast and you can just blow all your mana shoving a wave and be back before they miss you.

9/0/21 with exhaust/flash, flat ap/mpen/flat ap/scaling ap and a boots + 3 opening is where it's at right now in my opinion.


Can you elaborate on your mastery choice? Why do you prefer utility?


Most likely MS, gp10, CDR and summoner spell cooldown (Maybe experience?) It's actually pretty decent in hard lanes since it keeps you relevant even if you fall behind and having exhaust up more often is always nice but you lose out on the 21st point in offense which synergizes so well with your ultimate.

Also, now that wall got nerfed so hard, I've given up on levelling wall second. It was ridiculous how strong it was prepatch at level 9-13 when you could wall every time the cooldown was up and take 50% of your opponent's healthbar with minimal repercussions. It's still worth taking a point in it at level 8 IMO to get the slow and wall size strong enough to deny entry into important spots around the map but I just leave it at two points and level defile since the slow is extremely strong and the wall size is big enough at that point.

Anyone else want to share insight on skilling on karthus?

Actually I take improved recall, utility mastery, mana regen, movespeed, spellvamp, 2 points in experience, cdr and capstone. That's a good point about the ult snipes, though.

Oh also QEQWQR R>Q>E>W imo. Start maxing W when teamfights happen if you want but defile is just so much damage and wall utility depends more on placement than on how many points it has in it.
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6213 Posts
September 03 2012 22:15 GMT
#180
I've always found that level 1 wall was never really sufficient to guarantee hits on Q since wall has a bit more range (125 more) than Q and that level 2 slow felt necessary in order to chase and hit guaranteed Qs so out of habit I still put two points into wall before even thinking about levelling defile more. Froggen's busy preparing for OGN so he rarely streams and I haven't been able to see what he's doing with karthus now (I copied him and levelled wall second instead of alternating wall/defile prepatch which wrecked any mid that didn't have a dash).

Since the slow is the only scaling utility on wall, some quick calculations on how strong it is (There's diminishing returns on slows below 220ms, according to http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Movement_speed

350 ms
215/198/180/163/145

380 ms
228/205/186/167/148

410 ms
246/213/192/171/150

You start running into diminishing returns at level 2 wall on pretty much everyone. Was an interesting little exercise to see the numbers.
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