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On September 26 2011 17:11 RetZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 15:30 NightWalks wrote:
What about Garen ? He spin 2 win and destroys all ghouls you place on him then just stand in bush and regen all health . His w passive provides armor / mres and abilities cost no mana . W him when he tries to run to you, level your Q second and hit creeps with it then let it run off and hit him. E to heal on creeps whenever its up, on garen if you can. As long as you get a chalice and not a tear you'll destroy garen and any other champ. I really have no idea how yorick can lose against anyone.
You mention chalice and i also bet you get boots +1 vs Garen ... thus you need farm and money . Garen is notorious for his massive early game and zoning . Yoricks W doesn't apply full slow to Garen who spins not to mention Lv1 W slow isn't that great and lvling W over QE hurts Yoricks mid game.
Even if you manage to tie with Garen top , once teamfights start team with Garen is in advantage .
aka why take Yorick top Vs Garen when you can pick Teemo and make life easy
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On September 26 2011 17:31 NightWalks wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 17:11 RetZ wrote:On September 26 2011 15:30 NightWalks wrote:
What about Garen ? He spin 2 win and destroys all ghouls you place on him then just stand in bush and regen all health . His w passive provides armor / mres and abilities cost no mana . W him when he tries to run to you, level your Q second and hit creeps with it then let it run off and hit him. E to heal on creeps whenever its up, on garen if you can. As long as you get a chalice and not a tear you'll destroy garen and any other champ. I really have no idea how yorick can lose against anyone. You mention chalice and i also bet you get boots +1 vs Garen ... thus you need farm and money . Garen is notorious for his massive early game and zoning . Yoricks W doesn't apply full slow to Garen who spins not to mention Lv1 W slow isn't that great and lvling W over QE hurts Yoricks mid game. Even if you manage to tie with Garen top , once teamfights start team with Garen is in advantage . aka why take Yorick top Vs Garen when you can pick Teemo and make life easy
You don't W while he's spinning you W while he's running to you, he shouldn't get range for spin. I'm not sure why you think levelling W over QE will give you a weaker midgame either. As far as picking yorick against garen I wouldn't do it, but he can easily just turn the lane into a farm fest, and again I'm not sure why you think yorick will have a weak teamfight presence in midgame.
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Due to W nerf . It doesn't scale anymore with bonus AD ( and Mnamune was/is one of top opening items ) and it's base dmg is low . You need Q and E to deal dmg .
For me Mid game was Ok when Yorick could build manamune , LvL W and E ( E had range of 650 ) entring mid game with 2 high dmg ranged pokes from witch one was AoE . You just join your ranged AD and poked down towers .
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On September 26 2011 18:04 NightWalks wrote:
Due to W nerf . It doesn't scale anymore with bonus AD ( and Mnamune was/is one of top opening items ) and it's base dmg is low . You need Q and E to deal dmg .
For me Mid game was Ok when Yorick could build manamune , LvL W and E ( E had range of 650 ) entring mid game with 2 high dmg ranged pokes from witch one was AoE . You just join your ranged AD and poked down towers .
The W ghoul still gets ad scaling on its autos and you only need one rank in E for its autos (Where most of the healing comes from anyway). The base damage on W is higher than on E and with the slow from levelling it first you can have all of your ghouls hitting the target with no chance of them getting away, which more than makes up for losing the bonus AD on E nuke.
Try Chalice > Spirit's Visage > Phage > Atma's or Chalice > Warmog's > Atma's with lucidity boots. Either of those will give you a strong midgame that only gets stronger the better your ad carry did.
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On September 26 2011 18:04 NightWalks wrote:
Due to W nerf . It doesn't scale anymore with bonus AD
Bad scaling is no reason not to level an ability. AD/AP Scaling is not tied to the rank of an ability (except for old spear shot).
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On September 26 2011 19:46 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 18:04 NightWalks wrote:
Due to W nerf . It doesn't scale anymore with bonus AD Bad scaling is no reason not to level an ability. AD/AP Scaling is not tied to the rank of an ability (except for old spear shot).
Strictly speaking, it is a reason when one of the two spells in question scales their CD with rank as well--leveling the spell that scales off AD (in this case E) results in higher overall damage output.
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On September 26 2011 15:30 NightWalks wrote:
What about Garen ? He spin 2 win and destroys all ghouls you place on him then just stand in bush and regen all health . His w passive provides armor / mres and abilities cost no mana .
He spins to kill ghouls, but doesn't do damage to you big deal. He stands in brush you "facecheck" brush with W which breaks his passive so he can't heal. You know you're facing garen and have some basic level of competence so you have an armor rune page and defensive masteries.
Garen loses to Yorick 100% of the time.
Buying chalice over Manamune loses you the game FYI. Delays damage too long and limits your lategame potential. Manamune + Atma's Impaler means you get bonus damage from the health and mana portions of items like Banshee's Veil making them crazily efficient.
On September 26 2011 19:08 RetZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 18:04 NightWalks wrote:
Due to W nerf . It doesn't scale anymore with bonus AD ( and Mnamune was/is one of top opening items ) and it's base dmg is low . You need Q and E to deal dmg .
For me Mid game was Ok when Yorick could build manamune , LvL W and E ( E had range of 650 ) entring mid game with 2 high dmg ranged pokes from witch one was AoE . You just join your ranged AD and poked down towers .
The W ghoul still gets ad scaling on its autos and you only need one rank in E for its autos (Where most of the healing comes from anyway). The base damage on W is higher than on E and with the slow from levelling it first you can have all of your ghouls hitting the target with no chance of them getting away, which more than makes up for losing the bonus AD on E nuke. Try Chalice > Spirit's Visage > Phage > Atma's or Chalice > Warmog's > Atma's with lucidity boots. Either of those will give you a strong midgame that only gets stronger the better your ad carry did.
Against a competent opponent they won't let your E auto attack for very long so you need the "burst healing" from higher ranks (and the lower cooldown) instead of a marginally better W.
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On September 26 2011 02:42 SHr3DD3r wrote:
Who really counters him? and who can deal with him in lane.
I know Swain can't
Tryndamere with AP Runes/Amp Tome can do very well, but it's one crazy war of attrition. On your end it's all about forcing Yorick to spend all his mana, because once that's gone he's dead in the water. You win damage trades by spinning away from ghouls (either by spinning onto Yorick if he tosses them on you at range, or by spinning away/into bushes if he tosses them on you in melee) and by reducing Yorick's damage through W (AD reduction works no matter where he's facing and effects ghouls by proxy). Even if you "lose" the damage trade Yorick has to spend mana to heal, and any time he uses ghouls on minions instead of you is an opportunity to initiate another damage trade.
Eventually it comes down to the fact that your ult actually keeps you from dying and his doesn't. He also won't have a very good way keeping you in ult range, so you can just spin away if he tries to burn you down with it.
Still, this is a tough enough match that it's pretty easy to lose if you (Tryndamere) mess up.
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Trynd with AP runes and amp tome can deal with Yorick to the extent that both can farm. But he still needs a good bit of last hits / auto attacks to build the rage to heal properly while Yorick only needs a Tear to never have a mana issue again and therefore never have to worry about healing again.
Your ult can keep you alive in a fight with him but he can run away from you during that time as you will have used W already to reduce his damage so you really only have E to catch up with him and he can outrun you with a combination of his Q, W, exhaust, and flash and kill you a few moments later when you don't have your ult to keep you alive.
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I've beaten a bad yorick with Nasus before; I think if the Yorick was competant I would have a less-than-desirable early game but with tanky runes and masteries you're only limited by your manapool which philo/chalice will solve. We both can't kill each other but I think Nasus is better for ganks/counter-ganks as well as scaling.
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My experiences don't match up with the scenarios you describe, but it is possible that the Yoricks I fought were not the best or were simply not used to dealing with that setup on Trynd. I don't know what the Yoricks I faced were skilling first, but I can give you the following information:
- During damage exchanges Yorick would use all three of his abilities.
- Last-hitting ghouls gives a full 15 Fury.
- Ghouls usually chase champions over minions.
- Ghouls stop chasing champions if they lose sight of them in brush.
- The AoE from W and the auto attacks from ghouls in general allowed me to do a fair amount of auto-attacking and build a creep advantage without pushing the lane much.
- I was never in a position where I needed to ult during damage exchanges.
- I didn't blindly use W to reduce Yorick's AD, but sometimes saved it to stop him from running.
I don't know how necessary it was for the Yoricks I faced to QWE every time, but that's largely how I ran them out of mana even after they grabbed Tear. I never ran out of health, so it was always only a matter of time before they ran out of mana.
I can't honestly say whether or not the Yoricks I faced were good or bad. I just know I had full control of the lane up until it was time to stop laning, which meant I farmed better than they did and even killed them.
I'm interested enough in your thoughts that if you want we could have a go at it tonight and see if it gives us any insights on both sides.
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On September 26 2011 23:45 STS17 wrote:Buying chalice over Manamune loses you the game FYI. Delays damage too long and limits your lategame potential. Manamune + Atma's Impaler means you get bonus damage from the health and mana portions of items like Banshee's Veil making them crazily efficient. Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 19:08 RetZ wrote:
The W ghoul still gets ad scaling on its autos and you only need one rank in E for its autos (Where most of the healing comes from anyway). The base damage on W is higher than on E and with the slow from levelling it first you can have all of your ghouls hitting the target with no chance of them getting away, which more than makes up for losing the bonus AD on E nuke.
Try Chalice > Spirit's Visage > Phage > Atma's or Chalice > Warmog's > Atma's with lucidity boots. Either of those will give you a strong midgame that only gets stronger the better your ad carry did. Against a competent opponent they won't let your E auto attack for very long so you need the "burst healing" from higher ranks (and the lower cooldown) instead of a marginally better W.
Yorick's base damage is easily high enough to wait until you have atma's, not to mention the fact that with his ult he has huge team fight power even if he has 0 bonus AD. Building a manamune can be good against some lanes and will give you a better lategame but chalice will give an even more abusive laning phase and let you get other, more important items more quickly.
As for not letting your E auto them, if you've levelled W first then they're either moving into brush (So hit them when the come to last hit), using an ability or letting the ghouls auto them, they won't be getting away with that slow on them. Its not like you need your ghoul to get every auto over its duration to heal for enough, there are very few champs that can handle yorick's harass while being able to pressure him back enough for this to be an issue.
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On September 27 2011 06:24 Seuss wrote:My experiences don't match up with the scenarios you describe, but it is possible that the Yoricks I fought were not the best or were simply not used to dealing with that setup on Trynd. I don't know what the Yoricks I faced were skilling first, but I can give you the following information: - During damage exchanges Yorick would use all three of his abilities.
- Last-hitting ghouls gives a full 15 Fury.
- Ghouls usually chase champions over minions.
- Ghouls stop chasing champions if they lose sight of them in brush.
- The AoE from W and the auto attacks from ghouls in general allowed me to do a fair amount of auto-attacking and build a creep advantage without pushing the lane much.
- I was never in a position where I needed to ult during damage exchanges.
- I didn't blindly use W to reduce Yorick's AD, but sometimes saved it to stop him from running.
I don't know how necessary it was for the Yoricks I faced to QWE every time, but that's largely how I ran them out of mana even after they grabbed Tear. I never ran out of health, so it was always only a matter of time before they ran out of mana. I can't honestly say whether or not the Yoricks I faced were good or bad. I just know I had full control of the lane up until it was time to stop laning, which meant I farmed better than they did and even killed them. I'm interested enough in your thoughts that if you want we could have a go at it tonight and see if it gives us any insights on both sides.
Sure I'll give it a go. I make no claims of being the best player around. I also have never personally faced "AP Trynd" with Yorick so what I was saying is mostly theorycraft. If you are interested in testing this I'm STS17 in game just look me up when I'm online.
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Well a lot of that depends on who you're laning against as well. My standard setup is this:
Runes:
Red: ArPen
Yellow: Flat Armor
Blue: Scaling MRes
Quints: ArPen
Masteries: 9/21/0
R>E>Q>W
Get Q at 2 against most (Stronger nuke in melee trades) and W against those who like to chill in the brush because you get a free face checker ability and the instant sight from it keeps your E from breaking off of the champ if they use the brush to escape. W also breaks Garen's passive so dropping it in a brush when he's hiding really kills his ability to sustain himself and you'll quickly push him out of lane if you aren't dumb enough to eat a full Q -> Spin combo.
The goal here is a good heavy tanky set-up without sacrificing early game harass. 15% MPen and 25 ArPen maximizes the healing and damage from your E which will be your primary sustain and harass tool in lane.
I have never really come across a lane where I lose (lose being defined as behind in farm compared to your opponent) and you can zone / outharass a good number of champions.
I'm also not afraid to change that set-up if I think my opponent will be heavily harassing me or if I have an aggressive jungler. For example, against an opponent who forces you to use your spells often (Garen, an aggressive AP Trynd, some Singed, etc.) you may want to consider MP5 runes and going deep enough into utility to grab MP5 there as well.
Your runes and masteries are fairly flexible and once you get your Tear it's almost impossible to push you out of the lane.
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can someone just fur the funnzies make a dominion Yorick build?
hes f2p atm and quite the fun
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On October 11 2011 12:46 Riskr wrote:can someone just fur the funnzies make a dominion Yorick build? hes f2p atm and quite the fun
Make one and report back to us?
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uffz i can try but have to play a bit more
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On September 26 2011 23:45 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 15:30 NightWalks wrote:
What about Garen ? He spin 2 win and destroys all ghouls you place on him then just stand in bush and regen all health . His w passive provides armor / mres and abilities cost no mana . He spins to kill ghouls, but doesn't do damage to you big deal. He stands in brush you "facecheck" brush with W which breaks his passive so he can't heal. You know you're facing garen and have some basic level of competence so you have an armor rune page and defensive masteries. Garen loses to Yorick 100% of the time. Buying chalice over Manamune loses you the game FYI. Delays damage too long and limits your lategame potential. Manamune + Atma's Impaler means you get bonus damage from the health and mana portions of items like Banshee's Veil making them crazily efficient. Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 19:08 RetZ wrote:On September 26 2011 18:04 NightWalks wrote:
Due to W nerf . It doesn't scale anymore with bonus AD ( and Mnamune was/is one of top opening items ) and it's base dmg is low . You need Q and E to deal dmg .
For me Mid game was Ok when Yorick could build manamune , LvL W and E ( E had range of 650 ) entring mid game with 2 high dmg ranged pokes from witch one was AoE . You just join your ranged AD and poked down towers .
The W ghoul still gets ad scaling on its autos and you only need one rank in E for its autos (Where most of the healing comes from anyway). The base damage on W is higher than on E and with the slow from levelling it first you can have all of your ghouls hitting the target with no chance of them getting away, which more than makes up for losing the bonus AD on E nuke. Try Chalice > Spirit's Visage > Phage > Atma's or Chalice > Warmog's > Atma's with lucidity boots. Either of those will give you a strong midgame that only gets stronger the better your ad carry did. Against a competent opponent they won't let your E auto attack for very long so you need the "burst healing" from higher ranks (and the lower cooldown) instead of a marginally better W.
I have faced multiple yoricks top as garen and I still have yet to actually lose the lane. I usually have to bring a bunch of potions with me on my first time back, but what I ended up doing that seemed to work was just rushing out with q and as soon as he casts slow wraith I spin to cancel the slow and I still end up getting most of the spin onto him and sometimes the q attack after the spin finished. The exchanges usually don't go too far into either sides favor, but it did cause me to be able to be closer to the creeps most of the time and outfarm him. I feel like hes easily one of garens toughest top lanes, but the lane can go either way depending on the jungler and if one side gets a lead it's near impossible to come back.
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EPT
