EPT
[Champion] Shen - Page 24
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Beavo
Canada293 Posts
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
On May 19 2014 07:16 Beavo wrote: Had to play Shen vs Mordekaiser last night, couldn't touch him ... pick something else? ^^ | ||
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MidnightGladius
China1214 Posts
In the midgame, I've personally had a lot of fun building a Raptor Cloak item after Sunfire/Cowl. The passive speed near towers enables so many E opportunities, and both of the items are actually quite reasonable on Shen in his typical split-pushing and tower-diving roles. My hardest lane matchup by far has been W max Gnar. He's a fiend in lane and hard to punish even with a gank, and can match your global impact with proper rage management. I admittedly haven't tried E first against him, and I would like to hear others' thoughts and experiences. I've yet to try Shen support, but in the LCS game today it looked pretty reasonable in lane, and the midgame synergy with Ori and Sivir was undeniably effective. Anyone have any experience with the bot lane matchups? | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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MidnightGladius
China1214 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On July 05 2015 11:59 MidnightGladius wrote: I imagine support Shen would take Q at level 1 for the (admittedly low) allied sustain, then start putting points in E to force trades repeatedly against their ADC, trading pots/relic shield stacks for their hp with the goal of forcing an awkwardly timed recall. I'd certainly like to give it a try. Yup, that's the ticket. It's not a hard bully lane, but when you press R top something does every time. Then your top laners tps bot and your carry gets fed. | ||
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MidnightGladius
China1214 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Best path is probably r,q,e,w. E bee one because you can get your taunt cd low in the mid game with CDR and actually start to use it well around level 13, whereas prior to that you are unlikely to have such extended trades (you will be dead before you get taunt 2 off without points in w or q) Edit: basically compare q to e. At level 4, rank 2 q vs rank 2 e. With e at rank 2, Shen taunt trades for 145 plus auto plus ki. He can do this once every 14ish seconds. He pokes for 60 every 6 ish seconds providing a potential 10+2.5% max health HP/5 to him and his AD. (Generally an either or on damage/healing unless you and your AD can hit the enemy while you vorpal blade them) With q at rank 2 Shen taunt trades for 150 plus auto plus Ki every 16 ish seconds. He pokes for 100 every 5.5 seconds. And heals up to 15+2.5% HP/5. If you're using q on CD then you're either holding your taunt for it to be back up for the trade or you're not using your q on CD. Q 2 ranks can get 2 qs in between each e while two rank e can only get one without negating the e cd advantage. So for two trades e max gets 350 plus two autos and two ki's in 14 seconds and q max gets 500 plus two autos and two ki's in 16.5. If e max waits on CDs it gets 410 in 18 seconds. Third rank at 5 has the same effect. Q gets 140 three times in between taunts, e max gets 1 (though now you are legit down to 12 seconds. So overall for two trades e max does 440 in 12 and q max does 800 in 16. (Both plus autos and Ki's) Only works if you can really afford to force those weaker trades more often (keep in mind still outside of the CD of every other supports peel). No, it's better to use e as a counter engage tool when you can get a good line on both ad/support than it is to force taunt trades. And if you do this then q or w max is necessary. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On July 16 2015 21:51 nafta wrote: Problem is q is useless after the first 10 minutes so unless you can get something done with it there is no point in maxing it as support.You should always max q on top(maybe in some really fucking hard matchups you could put a few points in w instead early). Surviving and bullying lane phases is value. Pros tend to max q and then e once they're out of lane. Highest win rate % for support on champion.gg is r,q,w,e. (ie raw first trade power) So make your own choice there. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
Obviously if you are gonna try to splitpush or something you have to max q as well. | ||
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loSleb
Austria1389 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On July 18 2015 00:42 nafta wrote: This is literally the same situation as thresh was in before people learned to max q instead of flay.Sure flay max is better in lane but it is useless later same with shen q.I literally said if you think you can get something useful done with q max you should do it but it doesn't do anything later in the game and in passive lanes it is useless. Obviously if you are gonna try to splitpush or something you have to max q as well. Except that maxing Q appears to win more games than maxing E in soloqueue. So unless you're saying that threshes have moved to maxing Q and it is costing them games i don't see the point. Winning matters. Maxing Q wins games On July 18 2015 04:17 loSleb wrote: Literally every pro I have seen straight up maxes e on support Shen. probuilds disagrees. Every single support shen game gets 2 ranks of Q by 4 and a third rank at 5, or ends laning and starts maxing E. And you would expect pros to end laning sooner than non, which would suggest that Q is stronger for the rest of us. | ||
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MidnightGladius
China1214 Posts
Take that, Teemo counterpick! | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On July 18 2015 09:57 MidnightGladius wrote: On a purely anecdotal note, going to lane with E at level 1 and watching the enemy laner take 60% damage from minion aggro due to standing in your wave is deeply satisfying. Take that, Teemo counterpick! Yea, e is very situationally strong at level 1. I have a hard time determining when you should pick up Q and when you should pick up E though, besides when you're obviously invading. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On July 18 2015 10:21 Goumindong wrote: Yea, e is very situationally strong at level 1. I have a hard time determining when you should pick up Q and when you should pick up E though, besides when you're obviously invading. Well it doesn't say which is better when on probuilds how could you. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On July 18 2015 19:21 nafta wrote: Well it doesn't say which is better when on probuilds how could you. :roll: Probuilds is an argument for "what pros are doing" so don't tell me pros are doing x when evidence says they are doing y. That there also happens to be a strong argument for q max (and evidence that it works) is why you should do/consider it. It takes both but only one to disprove a shit argument. The reason the q or e at level 1 is hard is because it's hard to know when and if you can get a god taunt off before level 2. (And if you can't then the sustain and poke are obviously better) | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On July 19 2015 03:23 Goumindong wrote: :roll: Probuilds is an argument for "what pros are doing" so don't tell me pros are doing x when evidence says they are doing y. That there also happens to be a strong argument for q max (and evidence that it works) is why you should do/consider it. It takes both but only one to disprove a shit argument. The reason the q or e at level 1 is hard is because it's hard to know when and if you can get a god taunt off before level 2. (And if you can't then the sustain and poke are obviously better) I dunno man every pro I have watched on kr q maxes.Guess I should have specified good players.To be fair though I should have specified sometimes you get a few points in flay for the lane but ONLY if you can do something useful with it.Same with shen. It really isn't hard to tell if you should q or e since it only depends on what you are playing against but hey why use basic logic of range and what abilities characters have or what is your goal as a lane lvl1/2 when we can look at champion.gg for winrates.Clearly those 1k games played with q lvl 1 44.48% win rate vs 223 games of e start with 53.81% makes it obvious what you should start. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On July 19 2015 04:22 nafta wrote: I dunno man every pro I have watched on kr q maxes.Guess I should have specified good players.To be fair though I should have specified sometimes you get a few points in flay for the lane but ONLY if you can do something useful with it.Same with shen. It really isn't hard to tell if you should q or e since it only depends on what you are playing against but hey why use basic logic of range and what abilities characters have or what is your goal as a lane lvl1/2 when we can look at champion.gg for winrates.Clearly those 1k games played with q lvl 1 44.48% win rate vs 223 games of e start with 53.81% makes it obvious what you should start. I don't understand what you're saying. No one said anything about Thresh Q or E being particularly better, just that Shen Q has more lane power and that this is valuable and wins more games than maxing E. Furthermore, no one said that level 1 e wasn't strong, just that it wasn't necessarily what you should go with every time. And deciding which to use was hard, because there isn't a lot of information you can use because you will often need to choose before the point where it becomes clear whether or not you should take e first. So saying "e first does better" doesn't mean anything in this context. It would if there were a suggestion as to why e first should do better every time. | ||
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