We're approaching the end of the Legacy of the Void beta! Your feedback has been awesome and we're sincerely thankful to the many testers who participated. Although we'll continue improving the game moving forward, our initial test phase will soon be ending.
From reporting on large issues like game balance, pacing and competition, to bringing up smaller things which deserved more polish, you've all been tremendously helpful! We've pored over your feedback and gotten some truly rich data as a result.
Now that the beta is ending*, we’ll soon be locking the beta feedback forums. If you have any additional feedback to share, we suggest that you write your final post(s) there as soon as possible.
Additionally, we recommend uninstalling your beta client, as the retail version of Legacy of the Void doesn't use the same files as the beta. To do this, select “Beta: Legacy of the Void” from the dropdown in the Battle.net App, then select Options > Uninstall Game. Doing so also gives you back around 13 gigabytes of hard drive space back. Hooray!
*Please note that while we are currently targeting the beta to end on November 2nd, this is only an estimated date and it could change.
Seems my gut feelings were mostly correct. After Open Beta was announced I knew it wouldn't be long before end of beta.
So what are you guys thought? Too soon, or so you think beta is far enough development wise to close the doors?
Personally I feel slightly disappointed with beta overall. Especially at the beginning they did some great changes, but after the first half of beta they seemed to slowly un-develop the game back to HotS. I hope they keep doing big changes after release.
Can't say I liked the direction they were going in, both with economy and units... And as someone that's been playing 2v2 as the main mode in SC for 15 years now, not including it in the beta when the game has even more harass focus and quickly depleting bases makes me worried if team games will be playable at all when it's released. But I'm not surprised it feels lacklustre - the expansion was forced out by the early decision of making a three-part story, not as a consequence of wanting to realize new and fresh ideas after HOTS, which shows.
There is still sooo much to change and balance which will take a long time after release until everything is balanced, I just hope it wont affect tournament results too much :/
i played some games recently, and i enjoy it i guess, but it is faster than HotS, and games are quicker. i don't hate it really by itself. i do enjoy the aggression now, but protoss has too many activated abilites. i don't even know where to start sometimes, and tabbing through is impractical. still, there aren't enough control groups either. it is a bit uncoordinated imo.
what bothers me is the giant raw spirit bomb of making video games that is blizzard is clearly missing out on the opportunity to really make the game something amazing. so much is missing, and we will even get to see it in the campaign, taunting us that it should arbitrarily be "campaign only". shield batteries, dark archons, goliaths, even lurkers were in since WoL...
they would have to break down and add in many units in this expansion and abandon their "only exciting changes" philosophy. we all know they could never do this. we needed more economy changes than the starting and ending points. we provided evidence which was misread or something. we haven't seen new skins since the launch of HotS and i really don't think we will get much more than the collector's skins.
the problem is that we know they are fully capable of doing all of this, but obviously can't bring themselves to. even if they are hiding 8 skins from us, do you really think the abathur voice pack is coming? what about color selection? those are not important enough i guess? "the technology isn't there"?
perhaps Starcraft 3 will be far enough away to give us miss chance and the game can be more Brood War like without being too much like Brood War? was that really an issue for this game? there's just so much wasted potential, imo. this is blizzard, and it should show, and not just in the campaign or their new fancy custom hero mode.
Beyond the state of the Cyclone and the lack of Infestor changes everything I hated about the game is better at this point even (and by that I mean a bunch of baddies playing non professional level games)
No more three base deathballs, it's simply not viable, expand or die baby, by far the best changes to the game.
Colossus play extinct in favor of a unit that actually demonstrates skill to play with/against (Disruptor metagame going to be amazing and really raise the skill cap of PvX)
Zerg finally feels like a complete race with a strong space control unit, early offensive unit in the Ravager and a more reliable answer to mass air (PB)
Terran is as beastly as they always have been with a few new toys that are probably going to get taken away (Looking right at you Siege Tank drop, not OP just stupid)
You guys have to remember that the actual meta is set by the top 50 Korean GM players, once they start playing LOTV tournaments balance patches will follow suite, it's going to take probably about a year with some wildly swinging tournament results but such is the nature of Starcraft.
Anyone who thought the game was going to be picture perfect right after Beta obviously hasn't seen the state of the game post WOL and HOTS beta lol
It was good for a while with the heavily reduced macro mechanics but DK quickly regressed back into what he wanted instead of what we wanted for release.
Feels like this game is coming out waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too soon. It still needs so much work. I can't imagine the campaign is going to be very polished either. The HotS campaign was so childishly easy and one-dimensional compared to the masterpiece that was the WoL campaign.
On October 27 2015 07:07 Energizer wrote: Th-Th-Th-Th-Thats all folks!
Dont expect changes after release, what we see now is what LoTV will be. Kinda disappointing actually.
Where are you getting that from? The game will continue to receive balance updates post release, it may not receive massive changes although I swear I read that Blizz said they would consider economy changes post release once the dust has settled. There are some balance changes you just can't forsee until you're a few tournaments deep and even then things keep shifting.
Personally I'm fine with things, there are problems but there always will be, pretty sure people were saying the exact same things about HotS and that ended up in a really nice place eventually. You could have the game in a constant state of flux but at the end of the day they are a business with a release schedule. This beta has been great for communication and I hope they are like this with any future strategy games they work on after SC2 and that they've learnt a lot from what has been a really great game.
I'm really looking forward to watching LotV tournaments now
On October 27 2015 07:07 Energizer wrote: Th-Th-Th-Th-Thats all folks!
Dont expect changes after release, what we see now is what LoTV will be. Kinda disappointing actually.
Have you actually read the previous updates where they said EXACTLY THAT, that they will keep improving the game and will also do big changes after releasing it?
the units wont be changed doh, at least historically no blizzard games have replaced units after game release. So the units you see is the units you get. Im not thrilled and i will not buy lotv until i think its good enough
On October 27 2015 09:23 Big J wrote: Makes me sad for the future of this game, although it was a given with the release coming up.
I feel you man... Hope they do some big changes after release maybe.
I personally stopped playing SC2 a number of months ago. I played a bit when LotV was released. I was pretty interested at first but quickly lost interest after their patches degraded so fast, even after getting a decent sized following on youtube. If the game doesn't change I probably won't bother to play again after release. As of right now I don't even have the game pre-ordered... :l
Blade and Soul this weekend and their e-sports scene is probably bigger in korea than sc2 honestly >.>.... Plus they have plans for world championship, this year and next year to include NA/EU... Blizzard really falling behind with the whole e-sports thing... :l
I'm so proud of myself for not falling into pre-order trap (helped that I had beta and Firaxis taught me the lesson that nobody can be trusted). Played Blizz RTS since late WC3 roc, and I feel pretty confident that I'm done with them for quite some time.
I'll keep an eye on the eSports scene though, and hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised when high level starcraft is played in LOTV. Thus far, going back to wc3 or playing chess is more appealing..
Okay, I've play the lotv the last couple of weeks, a couple 1v1s, a couple Archon games. I've watched a fair amount of Pro games (both 1st person and casted). I've come to the conclusion that I'm FUCKING LOVING this game. It's so much quicker, more dynamic, so much more interesting than hots. Both in watching and playing. Yes, there are balance issues, but overall: good fucking job, blizzard. Can't wait for the release.
On October 27 2015 09:23 Big J wrote: Makes me sad for the future of this game, although it was a given with the release coming up.
I feel you man... Hope they do some big changes after release maybe.
I personally stopped playing SC2 a number of months ago. I played a bit when LotV was released. I was pretty interested at first but quickly lost interest after their patches degraded so fast, even after getting a decent sized following on youtube. If the game doesn't change I probably won't bother to play again after release. As of right now I don't even have the game pre-ordered... :l
Blade and Soul this weekend and their e-sports scene is probably bigger in korea than sc2 honestly >.>.... Plus they have plans for world championship, this year and next year to include NA/EU... Blizzard really falling behind with the whole e-sports thing... :l
Man I get that you are disappointed in things but wtf are you on about bringing Blade & Soul into this discussion? A game where you can buy statboosting potions in a cash shop is hardly built to have a proper and healthy eSports scene.
Just because companies throw money at their game and scream "ESPORTS!!!!" doesn't mean they're the godsend savior for eSports. Not even talking about the fact that these are entirely different games, but simply the fact that many companies using eSports as the new marketing strategy. Keep in mind Blade & Soul has been out for a while in Korea and they're making money off of the game pretty well and eSports is rising in popularity, so of course they can't miss out on this.
Blizzard has done more for eSports than companies like these ever will.
Also, we have yet to see what Blizzard really has in store for LotV. I agree they're rushing LotV out atm, but maybe thats out of their hands. However if they have proper plans post-release there's nothing to cry about. With the new features in SC2, we have reason to believe they still care enough.
I will never get people going to other games just because they promised something. Surely if they promised it, they must deliver it, right? Even if it is a completely different game, it must be better!
Meh. I guess what I'm trying to say is: The failure of Blizzard to properly satisfy all of the community can not be used as a reason to think that other companies will do it better.
On October 27 2015 21:08 KeksX wrote: Also, we have yet to see what Blizzard really has in store for LotV. I agree they're rushing LotV out atm, but maybe thats out of their hands. However if they have proper plans post-release there's nothing to cry about. With the new features in SC2, we have reason to believe they still care enough.
There is nothing more. I don't know why people are so naive, blizzard said the exact same things in HotS: "continue to make changes; monitor balance, make necessary adjustments; can always change it if it turns out bad; yada yada yada". Yeah, they throw out a balance patch every few weeks and they goddamn have to given how bad balance is at the moment, but do you really believe there will be tons of gamerelevant stuff coming? Skins, maybe. Changes to the matchmaking, hopefully. Maps and singleplayer stuff, sure. But the multiplayer part of the game is done, what you see is what you get.
On October 27 2015 21:08 KeksX wrote: Also, we have yet to see what Blizzard really has in store for LotV. I agree they're rushing LotV out atm, but maybe thats out of their hands. However if they have proper plans post-release there's nothing to cry about. With the new features in SC2, we have reason to believe they still care enough.
There is nothing more. I don't know why people are so naive, blizzard said the exact same things in HotS: "continue to make changes; monitor balance, make necessary adjustments; can always change it if it turns out bad; yada yada yada". Yeah, they throw out a balance patch every few weeks and they goddamn have to given how bad balance is at the moment, but do you really believe there will be tons of gamerelevant stuff coming? Skins, maybe. Changes to the matchmaking, hopefully. Maps and stuff, sure. But the multiplayer part of the game is done, what you see is what you get.
The situations are completely different. There's no more singleplayer campaign coming up, and with Heroes Of The Storm they have two games they can cater towards, meaning that they have more engineering power for the multiplayer as well.
There's a lot of possibilities for changes. Who knows, maybe instead of full-blown full prize expansions we get 5$ multiplayer DLCs that add units and features exclusively for multiplayer? It's out in the open at this point since the trilogy is over.
And who the freak cares about balance at this point? Yes, it's a mess, but thats okay. It'd be horrible if LotV was just HotS with a few additions in return for proper balance at release. If you expected the game to be balanced at release it's your own fault imho.
You can't have both design (philosophy) changes and balance. Keep in mind, it was HotS that made people quit the game. And it's LotV that is bringing them back. LotV is a far cry from perfect but it's an impossible task to both design new things and have them perfectly balanced at start.
And I repeat, I agree that they're rushing out LotV. But until we saw that panel at Blizzcon it's impossible for us to really tell what they have in mind for the future of SC2.
I can remember a time when people told me blizzard took as much time for game developement as was needed to make it great. That SC2 WoL came out so late because they worked on it for so long. What happened with that? Was it all just a lie? Are they going bankrupt and now have to rush their games? (<- I can hardly imagine that) Is LotV just something they have to do against their will because they promised?
On October 27 2015 21:29 RoomOfMush wrote: I can remember a time when people told me blizzard took as much time for game developement as was needed to make it great. That SC2 WoL came out so late because they worked on it for so long. What happened with that? Was it all just a lie? Are they going bankrupt and now have to rush their games? (<- I can hardly imagine that) Is LotV just something they have to do against their will because they promised?
LOTV was planned since before WOL. The singleplayer that is. Their decision of making a second expansion after the first hadn't even been released was not a very good move for a game where adding things to multiplayer is very very difficult; essentially they got into a position where all the singleplayer content and cinematics are done, but with very little idea of how to expand on the content they had in place since HOTS. Not releasing when it's gone that far is just a monetary drain, and at some point they just have to say "sod it, that'll have to do" when all other content is already finished. Considering they've been trying a little bit of everything without being willing to innovate much, extending the deadline probably wouldn't really accomplish anything anyway.
On October 27 2015 21:08 KeksX wrote: Also, we have yet to see what Blizzard really has in store for LotV. I agree they're rushing LotV out atm, but maybe thats out of their hands. However if they have proper plans post-release there's nothing to cry about. With the new features in SC2, we have reason to believe they still care enough.
There is nothing more. I don't know why people are so naive, blizzard said the exact same things in HotS: "continue to make changes; monitor balance, make necessary adjustments; can always change it if it turns out bad; yada yada yada". Yeah, they throw out a balance patch every few weeks and they goddamn have to given how bad balance is at the moment, but do you really believe there will be tons of gamerelevant stuff coming? Skins, maybe. Changes to the matchmaking, hopefully. Maps and stuff, sure. But the multiplayer part of the game is done, what you see is what you get.
The situations are completely different. There's no more singleplayer campaign coming up, and with Heroes Of The Storm they have two games they can cater towards, meaning that they have more engineering power for the multiplayer as well.
There's a lot of possibilities for changes. Who knows, maybe instead of full-blown full prize expansions we get 5$ multiplayer DLCs that add units and features exclusively for multiplayer? It's out in the open at this point since the trilogy is over.
And who the freak cares about balance at this point? Yes, it's a mess, but thats okay. It'd be horrible if LotV was just HotS with a few additions in return for proper balance at release. If you expected the game to be balanced at release it's your own fault imho.
You can't have both, Design (philosophy) changes and balance. You either balance what you have or you come up with new stuff that's not balanced straight away.
Keep in mind, it was HotS that made people quit the game. And it's LotV that is bringing them back. LotV is a far cry from perfect but it's an impossible task to both design new things and have them perfectly balanced at start.
I don't perceive LotV changes as big swing in design philosophy. And a lot of the balance problems have not been created by the small scale design changes they did like economy, but by the new units and balance changes to the old ones (ultralisk, nydus, viper). LotV is exactly what HotS was, a small, conservative expansion with a focus on adding content instead of improving and tweaking gameplay.
On October 27 2015 21:08 KeksX wrote: Also, we have yet to see what Blizzard really has in store for LotV. I agree they're rushing LotV out atm, but maybe thats out of their hands. However if they have proper plans post-release there's nothing to cry about. With the new features in SC2, we have reason to believe they still care enough.
There is nothing more. I don't know why people are so naive, blizzard said the exact same things in HotS: "continue to make changes; monitor balance, make necessary adjustments; can always change it if it turns out bad; yada yada yada". Yeah, they throw out a balance patch every few weeks and they goddamn have to given how bad balance is at the moment, but do you really believe there will be tons of gamerelevant stuff coming? Skins, maybe. Changes to the matchmaking, hopefully. Maps and stuff, sure. But the multiplayer part of the game is done, what you see is what you get.
The situations are completely different. There's no more singleplayer campaign coming up, and with Heroes Of The Storm they have two games they can cater towards, meaning that they have more engineering power for the multiplayer as well.
There's a lot of possibilities for changes. Who knows, maybe instead of full-blown full prize expansions we get 5$ multiplayer DLCs that add units and features exclusively for multiplayer? It's out in the open at this point since the trilogy is over.
And who the freak cares about balance at this point? Yes, it's a mess, but thats okay. It'd be horrible if LotV was just HotS with a few additions in return for proper balance at release. If you expected the game to be balanced at release it's your own fault imho.
You can't have both, Design (philosophy) changes and balance. You either balance what you have or you come up with new stuff that's not balanced straight away.
Keep in mind, it was HotS that made people quit the game. And it's LotV that is bringing them back. LotV is a far cry from perfect but it's an impossible task to both design new things and have them perfectly balanced at start.
I don't perceive LotV changes as big swing in design philosophy. And a lot of the balance problems have not been created by the small scale design changes they did like economy, but by the new units and balance changes to the old ones (ultralisk, nydus, viper).
The economy was not a small scale design change. It fundamentally changed how people see expansions (remembe the term "Expand or die"?).
And who is to say that they're not going to change these units further? It wouldn't be the first time they changed an already existing unit completely post-release, and with the current context it's much more likely.
LotV is exactly what HotS was, a small, conservative expansion with a focus on adding content instead of improving and tweaking gameplay
While I agree that LotV is (too) similar to Hots, it's not even close to being "exactly like HotS". My Zerg play has completely changed in LotV compared to HotS. And my opponents' playstyles have changed, too. I'm using two base muta as often as a lurker based defensive style that switches into more mobile tech. I also utilize three base ling/bling muta plays from the old days, and sometimes even rush to hive to punish my opponent for not paying attention. I've even started to use Swarm Host here and there, the only unit I'm currently never using is the Infestor.
It all depends on how/when the meta settles in and how much Blizzard is willing to change in the future( as I keep saying). If the meta settles in to be as boring as HotS, sure it's bad. But we cannot say that unless we know how Blizzard will approach SC2 in the future.
I have not preordered lotv and I will not. The beta has not convinced to buy it. For now I will just wait and see how it turns out. The biggest challenges for blizzard going forward here is keeping the game varied (wide variety of openings and playstyles), while at the same time making the game less volatile. There are of course good things with the beta but it is impossible to say how it will look once the meta settles.
The biggest incentive for me right now to buy it would be for the campaign but even that is not that strong. I really liked the wol campaign but the hots campaign was disappointing in its mediocrity.
All in all at some point I will probably get it but unless they announce something extraordinary at blizzcon it will probably be a while before I do.
On October 27 2015 21:08 KeksX wrote: Also, we have yet to see what Blizzard really has in store for LotV. I agree they're rushing LotV out atm, but maybe thats out of their hands. However if they have proper plans post-release there's nothing to cry about. With the new features in SC2, we have reason to believe they still care enough.
There is nothing more. I don't know why people are so naive, blizzard said the exact same things in HotS: "continue to make changes; monitor balance, make necessary adjustments; can always change it if it turns out bad; yada yada yada". Yeah, they throw out a balance patch every few weeks and they goddamn have to given how bad balance is at the moment, but do you really believe there will be tons of gamerelevant stuff coming? Skins, maybe. Changes to the matchmaking, hopefully. Maps and stuff, sure. But the multiplayer part of the game is done, what you see is what you get.
The situations are completely different. There's no more singleplayer campaign coming up, and with Heroes Of The Storm they have two games they can cater towards, meaning that they have more engineering power for the multiplayer as well.
There's a lot of possibilities for changes. Who knows, maybe instead of full-blown full prize expansions we get 5$ multiplayer DLCs that add units and features exclusively for multiplayer? It's out in the open at this point since the trilogy is over.
And who the freak cares about balance at this point? Yes, it's a mess, but thats okay. It'd be horrible if LotV was just HotS with a few additions in return for proper balance at release. If you expected the game to be balanced at release it's your own fault imho.
You can't have both, Design (philosophy) changes and balance. You either balance what you have or you come up with new stuff that's not balanced straight away.
Keep in mind, it was HotS that made people quit the game. And it's LotV that is bringing them back. LotV is a far cry from perfect but it's an impossible task to both design new things and have them perfectly balanced at start.
I don't perceive LotV changes as big swing in design philosophy. And a lot of the balance problems have not been created by the small scale design changes they did like economy, but by the new units and balance changes to the old ones (ultralisk, nydus, viper). LotV is exactly what HotS was, a small, conservative expansion with a focus on adding content instead of improving and tweaking gameplay.
Did you just call the economy a small scale change? Have you even played StarCraft?
Hype! I know it's a week without playing, but it really raises the excitement for me. Finally we will get our local servers and the game is already way more fun that HotS and I'm sure it will only get better after release. The beta wasn't perfect, but it was better than any other beta I've ever seen. So much Community-Developer interaction was awesome, thanks a lot Blizzard! They put small and big community suggestions like moving turrets or the disruptor rework directly into the game, I still can't believe it . I'm not concerned about balance, Blizzard has proven they will always get it to a good place in the long run.
Overall I'm very excited and can't wait for the 10th!
If you've followed LotV from the beginning it doesn't feel there were a huge slew of changes, but if you go back and play HotS it really is different.
I think the biggest overlooked philosophies are (1)upgrades/tech tree, (2)games ending abruptly and (3)map features that allow players to take advantages from map control or strong positions on the map.
On October 27 2015 07:07 Energizer wrote: Th-Th-Th-Th-Thats all folks!
Dont expect changes after release, what we see now is what LoTV will be. Kinda disappointing actually.
Where are you getting that from? The game will continue to receive balance updates post release, it may not receive massive changes although I swear I read that Blizz said they would consider economy changes post release once the dust has settled. There are some balance changes you just can't forsee until you're a few tournaments deep and even then things keep shifting.
Personally I'm fine with things, there are problems but there always will be, pretty sure people were saying the exact same things about HotS and that ended up in a really nice place eventually. You could have the game in a constant state of flux but at the end of the day they are a business with a release schedule. This beta has been great for communication and I hope they are like this with any future strategy games they work on after SC2 and that they've learnt a lot from what has been a really great game.
I'm really looking forward to watching LotV tournaments now
My disappointment comes from their "economy" change, which was really just a minor map change. In BW this was done by the community because they had more power over the maps that were being played. Something that Blizzard took away from us in SC2. I can barely consider this economy change something noteworthy coming from Blizzard. They had the power to make some real changes to the way the economy worked (either through a worker-efficiency change or one of the many other ways presented here on TL), but they opted to go for the easy way out and make a minor map edit.
That said, the units that are being added are OK and I'm glad to see that they've managed to do away with "Blizzard seconds" (one of the most ridiculous things ever, no matter the excuses regarding the engine and whatnot).
I'm sure that the single player campaign and the new modes will all be well designed and fun. Balance of the multiplayer right now is hard to judge until all the really good Korean pros start playing the game.
I'm not happy with balance but I'm optimistic that once we have more pros playing Blizzard will be able to do a better job with it.
Yeah, so the game's gonna come out with the parasitic bomb, pylon PO, cyclones and liberators as they are, and sieged tank drop. At this point I'm asking myself if I'm gonna buy the game for the story or not at all.
Especially love the fact they thank the community for the "awesome feedback", while it's pretty obvious they smokescreened the whole "we're gonna try a lot of new things for LOTV beta to solve SC2 design flaws". Oh and by the way, the fact they release the game after such short notice seems to indicate that the low player population on LOTV made Blizzard feel like the game is dead, and that they're better off releasing LOTV quickly before everybody drops playing.
Just compare the upcoming LOTV hype to the HOTS release hype, and you'll see what's the state of the game. Pretty sure Day9 won't even make a video about it since he dropped SC2 a long time ago.
On October 27 2015 23:08 JackONeill wrote: Yeah, so the game's gonna come out with the parasitic bomb, pylon PO, cyclones and liberators as they are, and sieged tank drop. At this point I'm asking myself if I'm gonna buy the game for the story or not at all.
Especially love the fact they thank the community for the "awesome feedback", while it's pretty obvious they smokescreened the whole "we're gonna try a lot of new things for LOTV beta to solve SC2 design flaws". Oh and by the way, the fact they release the game after such short notice seems to indicate that the low player population on LOTV made Blizzard feel like the game is dead, and that they're better off releasing LOTV quickly before everybody drops playing.
Just compare the upcoming LOTV hype to the HOTS release hype, and you'll see what's the state of the game. Pretty sure Day9 won't even make a video about it since he dropped SC2 a long time ago.
The hype for HotS was there because of WoL. The missing hype for LotV is ...not there... because of HotS.
We have two completely different contexts. WoL<->HotS transition happened when SC2 was still near it's prime. Right now people make fun of LotV with "ded gaem" jokes even before the release due to the state of Hots. That + other "dank memes" as well as major competition in the eSports department make for a tough release situation.
And of course Day9 is not going to cover a ton of LotV. He's working on a direct competitor.
I just hope Blizzard will actually change big things after release. I dislike the current state of LOTV and if this is the version we will have to play (well mostly follow tbh) then i am not sure how much fun that will be :/ But it's too soon to tell, as soon as proleague starts (and gsl/ssl) we will see how exciting the gameplay really is / can be. Cmon Kespa koreans, you can make it enjoyable with any version of starcraft!
you can't complete the balance of the game without seeing months of pro level play, so they have to release it. complaints that it's premature are just a reflection of this community never ever being satisfied or happy, we're mostly a very negative and vindictive bunch
On October 28 2015 05:10 brickrd wrote: you can't complete the balance of the game without seeing months of pro level play, so they have to release it. complaints that it's premature are just a reflection of this community never ever being satisfied or happy, we're mostly a very negative and vindictive bunch
And that's the reason why we don't get good, varied gameplay. "We need to confirm for 22months straight that Mech TvP isn't viable, before we consider changing it!" 22months later: "We won't change balance now, pros will complain if we do too many balance changes. The game is what it is!"
On October 28 2015 05:10 brickrd wrote: you can't complete the balance of the game without seeing months of pro level play, so they have to release it.
I think this is myth. Lots of games are very well balanced without ever having a pro scene. Pro scene observation helps you make the small tweaks, the fine tuning, the ultimate polish. Pro level playing tends to worsen or break balance because the very high skills may produce unexpectedly high results with certain mechanics that others can't play optimally. So such mechanics are a little stronger with them and become comparatively stronger than other things in the game that can't be improved so much by skill, and to compensate you alter these mechanics or change balance values for things that weren't broken at non pro level. But you can't expect the pro scene to somehow reveal the natural balance of the game as it should be. Also, it is very important I think to realize that most good things in a RTS, and that includes balance, originate in intended design. You can't just throw a bunch of stuff/units into a RTS and go "well that looks kinda cool, let's watch the pros play with it, tweak it around a bit and then we'll probably have a good game!".
On October 28 2015 05:10 brickrd wrote: you can't complete the balance of the game without seeing months of pro level play, so they have to release it.
I think this is myth. Lots of games are very well balanced without ever having a pro scene. Pro scene observation helps you make the small tweaks, the fine tuning, the ultimate polish. Pro level playing tends to worsen or break balance because the very high skills may produce unexpectedly high results with certain mechanics that others can't play optimally. So such mechanics are a little stronger with them and become comparatively stronger than other things in the game that can't be improved so much by skill, and to compensate you alter these mechanics or change balance values for things that weren't broken at non pro level. But you can't expect the pro scene to somehow reveal the natural balance of the game as it should be. Also, it is very important I think to realize that most good things in a RTS, and that includes balance, originate in intended design. You can't just throw a bunch of stuff/units into a RTS and go "well that looks kinda cool, let's watch the pros play with it, tweak it around a bit and then we'll probably have a good game!".
We've been through a lot of hilarious moments when various builds, units or strategies seemed either very weak or very strong. People used to think (pre-nerf) SH were worthless, for example.
On October 27 2015 07:07 Energizer wrote: Th-Th-Th-Th-Thats all folks!
Dont expect changes after release, what we see now is what LoTV will be. Kinda disappointing actually.
Have you actually read the previous updates where they said EXACTLY THAT, that they will keep improving the game and will also do big changes after releasing it?
Have you read their exact same statements the released at the end of WoL beta and HOTS beta?
Have you forgotten how long it took them to patch the archon toilet?
Sorry, but I have no faith in this post-lotv game. There is nothing in blizzards history pointing to extensive changes.
On October 27 2015 07:07 Energizer wrote: Th-Th-Th-Th-Thats all folks!
Dont expect changes after release, what we see now is what LoTV will be. Kinda disappointing actually.
Have you actually read the previous updates where they said EXACTLY THAT, that they will keep improving the game and will also do big changes after releasing it?
Have you read their exact same statements the released at the end of WoL beta and HOTS beta?
Have you forgotten how long it took them to patch the archon toilet?
Sorry, but I have no faith in this post-lotv game. There is nothing in blizzards history pointing to extensive changes.
They completely redesigned a unit almost at the end of HotS, how is that not a big change?
Actually so sad about the beta ending. Despite its problems, LotV beta has been a ton of fun if you allowed yourself to get immersed in it, I can't believe i played over 400 games in just a few weeks. There will be a void in my life for the next few weeks since i have no desire to play HotS anymore after playing so much LotV beta.
Idk why, but this was 100 times more fun than HotS beta.
I actually think the eco change was fairly bold and so far, better. It killed a LOT of my builds cuz I'm one cheesy dude, but I'll develop stuff to make you guys flip your lid eventually. Just feels hard to rush as zerg right now when everyone starts with so much cash.
LOTV is in a pretty good place... There will be some OP stuff that has to get tweaked, but thats just how it works, its how it always works... Its expected... I'm stoked for some LOTV Tournaments!
The game could still change. Remember when Diablo 3 launched and it was meh but after a year they did a massive overhaul? I think they're just rushed to get the campaign out and then can alter the multiplayer after release as is needed. Whether or not they do that is up in the air, but there's always room to meddle. Also even though the LOTV economy isn't like turned upside down it plays so much faster and every build is thrown out the window, much different from WOL to HotS.
Really hate casuals complaining and saying they've reverted Legacy back to Hots because they can't handle macro mechanics. Why can't people just be happy by competing in Platinum league against other players who can't use macro mechanics correctly? Don't cry and say you'd be masters or GM based on your strategies, being able to understand how to pull off a specific strategy, 7 gate adept all in or a 2 base ling bane bust, doesn't mean you should be master or GM. I'm fine with a temp ban for this post also.
I removed lotv, that 13GB was nice as this game is installed on an SSD.
Overall I find the new chrono is not fun to deal with, old chrono was better in almost every way. I also do not like either of the new terran units.
The game could still change. Remember when Diablo 3 launched and it was meh but after a year they did a massive overhaul? I think they're just rushed to get the campaign out and then can alter the multiplayer after release as is needed. Whether or not they do that is up in the air, but there's always room to meddle.
The problem is its harder to meddle mid season, or at the start of the season. You throw a lot of pro gamers off.
Whenever I play LotV I have a feeling that I play Beta, not a finished game. And, yes, I know that it is Beta, but we only have like 2 weeks until release...
And as Terran player I am disappointed, because I don't like new units that T got and playing vs Protoss is even more frustrating than in WoL or HotS. I guess I will not be buying it anytime soon.
I feel the game is rushed and it may scare off many pro gamers. I really hope I am wrong. Now I am waiting for Blizzcon, for the Legends Archon Game and hopefully fore some important announcements about future of Starcraft
Well, after all, the good thing of LotV, i think is the rythm of the game, i really liked it !. The things that i don´t like, are the abilities or units that turtling the game like cannon pylons or liberator, hope that they could be reoriented. The debt, that still being things unviable or very hard to be viable like nuclear launches, neuroparasite, swarmhost, between other things. Anyway i m not gona purchase it, just because i don´t trust in the decisions of blizz, since they made a big decision like the remove of macro boosters and they regreting, after that i don´t know what to expect. But LotV gona be the best of the 3 expansions of Sc 2 i guess, but still not gona get the success of broodwar, and even gona have less players than HotS in its time.
Terran's resource collection rate is too OP. Blizzard ending beta is a joke... The game is not close to balance, it feels like the beta has just been started. Nerf terran's mule before we call it an end.
I, for one am only looking forwards to playing the Campaign mode for LoTV.
Let's face it the multiplayer/1v1 mode for LoTV is not only far from being complete. Blizzard initially proposed these crazy/radical changes, and in the end most of them got toned down and all that's left is a half-way change. I feel bad for the Professional SC2 players who are going to be hit HARD by this imperfect release.
On October 27 2015 21:08 KeksX wrote: Also, we have yet to see what Blizzard really has in store for LotV. I agree they're rushing LotV out atm, but maybe thats out of their hands. However if they have proper plans post-release there's nothing to cry about. With the new features in SC2, we have reason to believe they still care enough.
There is nothing more. I don't know why people are so naive, blizzard said the exact same things in HotS: "continue to make changes; monitor balance, make necessary adjustments; can always change it if it turns out bad; yada yada yada". Yeah, they throw out a balance patch every few weeks and they goddamn have to given how bad balance is at the moment, but do you really believe there will be tons of gamerelevant stuff coming? Skins, maybe. Changes to the matchmaking, hopefully. Maps and singleplayer stuff, sure. But the multiplayer part of the game is done, what you see is what you get.
lol name all the RTS games with racial diversity that are balanced upon release. There are none. ZERO. zip. nil.
Brood War took 18 months to get patched into a state of being balanced. How many balance patches did Frozen Throne get? every single RTS game Blizzard releases requires balance patches and changes post-release. This is because the very best players are not fully committed to the game. They are playing something else.
Blizzard is better at balancing their RTS games than any other company which is why they are the only guys still making AAA level games for the genre.
DK and Sigaty stated they'd take a hard look at scaling back or eliminating macro-mechanics post release. Sigaty said the adding of a new unit is possible post release at the WCS-Poland event.
even just balancing a game post-release requires creativity, careful thinking, and a dose of skepticism. it requires resources and smart people. Blizzard is committing taht to LotV.
if balancing were "nothing" the way you imply in your post then SC2, Brood War and War3 wouldn't be the only remaining pillars in a now forgotten and ignored genre of multiplayer gaming.
pull War3, Brood War, and SC2 out of the genre and basically NO ONE is playing RTS games.
On October 28 2015 12:51 ClaudeSc2 wrote: Really hate casuals complaining and saying they've reverted Legacy back to Hots because they can't handle macro mechanics. Why can't people just be happy by competing in Platinum league against other players who can't use macro mechanics correctly? Don't cry and say you'd be masters or GM based on your strategies, being able to understand how to pull off a specific strategy, 7 gate adept all in or a 2 base ling bane bust, doesn't mean you should be master or GM. I'm fine with a temp ban for this post also.
User was temp banned for this post.
Really?......he got temp banned for this post?...Really?.....Wtf is wrong with TL admins?.....Quite embarrassing i say...
I fucking love LOTV!!! It's fast , it's FUN, it's competitive, it's responsive (when the latency is small ), it's a bit unbalanced (so what?......i don't care cause it's FUN!!!) BEST RTS OUT THERE!!!!!....... sorry HotS you've been dethroned!!!
On October 28 2015 12:51 ClaudeSc2 wrote: Really hate casuals complaining and saying they've reverted Legacy back to Hots because they can't handle macro mechanics. Why can't people just be happy by competing in Platinum league against other players who can't use macro mechanics correctly? Don't cry and say you'd be masters or GM based on your strategies, being able to understand how to pull off a specific strategy, 7 gate adept all in or a 2 base ling bane bust, doesn't mean you should be master or GM. I'm fine with a temp ban for this post also.
User was temp banned for this post.
Really?......he got temp banned for this post?...Really?.....Wtf is wrong with TL admins?.....Quite embarrassing i say...
On October 28 2015 12:51 ClaudeSc2 wrote: Really hate casuals complaining and saying they've reverted Legacy back to Hots because they can't handle macro mechanics. Why can't people just be happy by competing in Platinum league against other players who can't use macro mechanics correctly? Don't cry and say you'd be masters or GM based on your strategies, being able to understand how to pull off a specific strategy, 7 gate adept all in or a 2 base ling bane bust, doesn't mean you should be master or GM. I'm fine with a temp ban for this post also.
User was temp banned for this post.
Really?......he got temp banned for this post?...Really?.....Wtf is wrong with TL admins?.....Quite embarrassing i say...
Last time I seen, it is not allowed to comment about admins doing their job on TL..
On October 27 2015 09:23 Big J wrote: Makes me sad for the future of this game, although it was a given with the release coming up.
I feel you man... Hope they do some big changes after release maybe.
I personally stopped playing SC2 a number of months ago. I played a bit when LotV was released. I was pretty interested at first but quickly lost interest after their patches degraded so fast, even after getting a decent sized following on youtube. If the game doesn't change I probably won't bother to play again after release. As of right now I don't even have the game pre-ordered... :l
Blade and Soul this weekend and their e-sports scene is probably bigger in korea than sc2 honestly >.>.... Plus they have plans for world championship, this year and next year to include NA/EU... Blizzard really falling behind with the whole e-sports thing... :l
Man I get that you are disappointed in things but wtf are you on about bringing Blade & Soul into this discussion? A game where you can buy statboosting potions in a cash shop is hardly built to have a proper and healthy eSports scene.
Just because companies throw money at their game and scream "ESPORTS!!!!" doesn't mean they're the godsend savior for eSports. Not even talking about the fact that these are entirely different games, but simply the fact that many companies using eSports as the new marketing strategy. Keep in mind Blade & Soul has been out for a while in Korea and they're making money off of the game pretty well and eSports is rising in popularity, so of course they can't miss out on this.
Blizzard has done more for eSports than companies like these ever will.
Also, we have yet to see what Blizzard really has in store for LotV. I agree they're rushing LotV out atm, but maybe thats out of their hands. However if they have proper plans post-release there's nothing to cry about. With the new features in SC2, we have reason to believe they still care enough.
I will never get people going to other games just because they promised something. Surely if they promised it, they must deliver it, right? Even if it is a completely different game, it must be better!
Meh. I guess what I'm trying to say is: The failure of Blizzard to properly satisfy all of the community can not be used as a reason to think that other companies will do it better.
Uh, I don't really want to get into this discussion but my point is actually pretty valid so lets do just a little bit... Each season of the blade and soul korean league is like ~100k$ prize pool, they've already had like 2-3 years of tournaments and if u've seen the latest videos you'd know that the crowds at each bracket stage is generally more filled than the GSL venues have been. Even the finals for world championships (asia region, hence my post) last year were probably just as big, if not bigger than recent GSLs (probably not proleagues though)... If anything what you've stated only proves you know nothing about the game... their arena for the past 2+years has been stat equalized for eSports. The shit you typed about only remotely matters for PvP or leveling progression which has nothing to do with the competitive side of the game @_@;; videos below... + Show Spoiler +
The point of my post was only to say that as a long time follower of blizzard games (I have played since iccup..) I have almost completely lost interest with blizzard's approach to games. You shouldn't let that shouldn't rustle you too much dawg.
On October 27 2015 09:23 Big J wrote: Makes me sad for the future of this game, although it was a given with the release coming up.
I feel you man... Hope they do some big changes after release maybe.
I personally stopped playing SC2 a number of months ago. I played a bit when LotV was released. I was pretty interested at first but quickly lost interest after their patches degraded so fast, even after getting a decent sized following on youtube. If the game doesn't change I probably won't bother to play again after release. As of right now I don't even have the game pre-ordered... :l
Blade and Soul this weekend and their e-sports scene is probably bigger in korea than sc2 honestly >.>.... Plus they have plans for world championship, this year and next year to include NA/EU... Blizzard really falling behind with the whole e-sports thing... :l
Man I get that you are disappointed in things but wtf are you on about bringing Blade & Soul into this discussion? A game where you can buy statboosting potions in a cash shop is hardly built to have a proper and healthy eSports scene.
Just because companies throw money at their game and scream "ESPORTS!!!!" doesn't mean they're the godsend savior for eSports. Not even talking about the fact that these are entirely different games, but simply the fact that many companies using eSports as the new marketing strategy. Keep in mind Blade & Soul has been out for a while in Korea and they're making money off of the game pretty well and eSports is rising in popularity, so of course they can't miss out on this.
Blizzard has done more for eSports than companies like these ever will.
Also, we have yet to see what Blizzard really has in store for LotV. I agree they're rushing LotV out atm, but maybe thats out of their hands. However if they have proper plans post-release there's nothing to cry about. With the new features in SC2, we have reason to believe they still care enough.
I will never get people going to other games just because they promised something. Surely if they promised it, they must deliver it, right? Even if it is a completely different game, it must be better!
Meh. I guess what I'm trying to say is: The failure of Blizzard to properly satisfy all of the community can not be used as a reason to think that other companies will do it better.
Uh, I don't really want to get into this discussion but my point is actually pretty valid so lets do just a little bit... Each season of the blade and soul korean league is like ~100k$ prize pool, they've already had like 2-3 years of tournaments and if u've seen the latest videos you'd know that the crowds at each bracket stage is generally more filled than the GSL venues have been. Even the finals for world championships (asia region, hence my post) last year were probably just as big, if not bigger than recent GSLs (probably not proleagues though)... If anything what you've stated only proves you know nothing about the game... their arena for the past 2+years has been stat equalized for eSports. The shit you typed about only remotely matters for PvP or leveling progression which has nothing to do with the competitive side of the game @_@;; videos below... + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y20cNtgn5CE
The point of my post was only to say that as a long time follower of blizzard games (I have played since iccup..) I have almost completely lost interest with blizzard's approach to games. You shouldn't let that shouldn't rustle you too much dawg.
Yes, I get that those companies try to make it an eSport. And because if you play a certain game, you're likely to watch tournaments for it's as well, so naturally popular games get a certain audience by default.
But that doesn't mean they're a blessing for eSports. And if you look at what games are played/viewed in a competetive environment in asia, you'd have to call every game out there an eSport, because almost everything is played that way. Even in the West it has started with ArenaNet pumping money into GW2 even though in the past years there hasn't been any real interest. But now that there's money on the line there are suddenly teams forming. Did GW2 change for the better, or is it just that large player base + money = "ESPORTS!!!"?
Also, it's okay that you lost interest in Blizzard games. If you like Blade & Soul more thats fine, too. But don't act like it's Blizzard fault - what are they supposed to do? Make StarCraft a third person MMO with revealing skins? (I'm going to drop the P2W discussion, because frankly I don't care enough about korean MMOs anymore after I got burned by the past ones. So if it's not P2W thats cool, doesn't change that it's an entirely different game).
Starcraft II is rising in Korea. It's still in the top 10 on gamenote which it hasn't been since ever. I get that you're disappointed, but you're in a vocal minority.
Lastly I'd appreciate it if you left out the dank memes when you talk with me. Twitch chat is over there.
On October 28 2015 05:10 brickrd wrote: you can't complete the balance of the game without seeing months of pro level play, so they have to release it. complaints that it's premature are just a reflection of this community never ever being satisfied or happy, we're mostly a very negative and vindictive bunch
And that's the reason why we don't get good, varied gameplay. "We need to confirm for 22months straight that Mech TvP isn't viable, before we consider changing it!" 22months later: "We won't change balance now, pros will complain if we do too many balance changes. The game is what it is!"
lol exactly!
I've been on a rollercoster with this BETA; at first i was super excited about the goals, like changing the eco, making mech viable vs P, no more Colossus as the centre piece, lurker; but as things progressed i was more and more disappointed with the direction. Air units to strong, all about fast units and not enough positional play, not enough big changes to the eco
So i don't know, it's more adventurous then HOTS, but is it enough? I'll wait on buying it like i did with HOTS.
On October 28 2015 05:10 brickrd wrote: you can't complete the balance of the game without seeing months of pro level play, so they have to release it. complaints that it's premature are just a reflection of this community never ever being satisfied or happy, we're mostly a very negative and vindictive bunch
And that's the reason why we don't get good, varied gameplay. "We need to confirm for 22months straight that Mech TvP isn't viable, before we consider changing it!" 22months later: "We won't change balance now, pros will complain if we do too many balance changes. The game is what it is!"
lol exactly!
I've been on a rollercoster with this BETA; at first i was super excited about the goals, like changing the eco, making mech viable vs P, no more Colossus as the centre piece, lurker; but as things progressed i was more and more disappointed with the direction. Air units to strong, all about fast units and not enough positional play, not enough big changes to the eco
So i don't know, it's more adventurous then HOTS, but is it enough? I'll wait on buying it like i did with HOTS.
You should watch this game
Maybe it just takes really(REALLY) good players to play LotV. David Kim has said multiplet times that they're still waiting for more SC2 Pros to switch to LotV.
This means the players wont be able to practice for TB's tournament which is kinda super important since some of them are still preparing for blizzcon and haven't played it much.
On October 28 2015 19:05 Popparockz wrote: This means the players wont be able to practice for TB's tournament which is kinda super important since some of them are still preparing for blizzcon and haven't played it much.
Which is exactly why we have to wait until those things are over and they start having serious time for LotV.
I don't really understand these posts how LOTV is happening too soon and how the game isn't balanced yet. Both WOL and HOTS(and even original SC and BW) had their fair share of balance changes and poor game balance periods that happened because of the units or maps. There were plenty of strategies that seemed quite broken only to be figured out after a few months or with the changes of the maps.
Balance never was perfect and never will be perfect. I've enjoyed these DH qualifiers for LOTV more than I've enjoyed watching HOTS in the past 6 months. For me the game is clearly better even though it has some stuff that needs changing, but I will give it a time. Top tier Koreans barely even touched the game, and we have to wait and see what they will be able to do.
On October 27 2015 09:23 Big J wrote: Makes me sad for the future of this game, although it was a given with the release coming up.
I feel you man... Hope they do some big changes after release maybe.
I personally stopped playing SC2 a number of months ago. I played a bit when LotV was released. I was pretty interested at first but quickly lost interest after their patches degraded so fast, even after getting a decent sized following on youtube. If the game doesn't change I probably won't bother to play again after release. As of right now I don't even have the game pre-ordered... :l
Blade and Soul this weekend and their e-sports scene is probably bigger in korea than sc2 honestly >.>.... Plus they have plans for world championship, this year and next year to include NA/EU... Blizzard really falling behind with the whole e-sports thing... :l
Man I get that you are disappointed in things but wtf are you on about bringing Blade & Soul into this discussion? A game where you can buy statboosting potions in a cash shop is hardly built to have a proper and healthy eSports scene.
Just because companies throw money at their game and scream "ESPORTS!!!!" doesn't mean they're the godsend savior for eSports. Not even talking about the fact that these are entirely different games, but simply the fact that many companies using eSports as the new marketing strategy. Keep in mind Blade & Soul has been out for a while in Korea and they're making money off of the game pretty well and eSports is rising in popularity, so of course they can't miss out on this.
Blizzard has done more for eSports than companies like these ever will.
Also, we have yet to see what Blizzard really has in store for LotV. I agree they're rushing LotV out atm, but maybe thats out of their hands. However if they have proper plans post-release there's nothing to cry about. With the new features in SC2, we have reason to believe they still care enough.
I will never get people going to other games just because they promised something. Surely if they promised it, they must deliver it, right? Even if it is a completely different game, it must be better!
Meh. I guess what I'm trying to say is: The failure of Blizzard to properly satisfy all of the community can not be used as a reason to think that other companies will do it better.
Uh, I don't really want to get into this discussion but my point is actually pretty valid so lets do just a little bit... Each season of the blade and soul korean league is like ~100k$ prize pool, they've already had like 2-3 years of tournaments and if u've seen the latest videos you'd know that the crowds at each bracket stage is generally more filled than the GSL venues have been. Even the finals for world championships (asia region, hence my post) last year were probably just as big, if not bigger than recent GSLs (probably not proleagues though)... If anything what you've stated only proves you know nothing about the game... their arena for the past 2+years has been stat equalized for eSports. The shit you typed about only remotely matters for PvP or leveling progression which has nothing to do with the competitive side of the game @_@;; videos below... + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y20cNtgn5CE
The point of my post was only to say that as a long time follower of blizzard games (I have played since iccup..) I have almost completely lost interest with blizzard's approach to games. You shouldn't let that shouldn't rustle you too much dawg.
Yes, I get that those companies try to make it an eSport. And because if you play a certain game, you're likely to watch tournaments for it's as well, so naturally popular games get a certain audience by default.
But that doesn't mean they're a blessing for eSports. And if you look at what games are played/viewed in a competetive environment in asia, you'd have to call every game out there an eSport, because almost everything is played that way. Even in the West it has started with ArenaNet pumping money into GW2 even though in the past years there hasn't been any real interest. But now that there's money on the line there are suddenly teams forming. Did GW2 change for the better, or is it just that large player base + money = "ESPORTS!!!"?
Also, it's okay that you lost interest in Blizzard games. If you like Blade & Soul more thats fine, too. But don't act like it's Blizzard fault - what are they supposed to do? Make StarCraft a third person MMO with revealing skins? (I'm going to drop the P2W discussion, because frankly I don't care enough about korean MMOs anymore after I got burned by the past ones. So if it's not P2W thats cool, doesn't change that it's an entirely different game).
Starcraft II is rising in Korea. It's still in the top 10 on gamenote which it hasn't been since ever. I get that you're disappointed, but you're in a vocal minority.
Lastly I'd appreciate it if you left out the dank memes when you talk with me. Twitch chat is over there.
Don't put words in other people's mouth. I never said it was a blessing for eSports, nor did I pretend it was anything of the sort; moreover, I think you'd give credit to the fact that NCSoft is a bit bigger than random F2P companies who make random games which are picked up in random leagues in korea. If you've followed PCbang stats for the past 4(?) years you'd easily notice that BnS has always remained in the top numbers. I simply stated that in Korea BnS is just as big, if not bigger on a general reception level in the competitive scene (as in it has seasons that are regulated with set prizes and so on), than SC2 if you take the recent venues as a reference.
I also never said money = eSports. The game has a development team just like Blizzard, valve, riot and so on.
It's not Blizzard's 'fault' I don't like their game. It's my own opinion. But their patches directly coincide with my opinion of the game. It stands to reason that if they changed their current phase of their approach to patching I might actually like it more. Quite the deduction.... I think many others have said the exact same thing in the thread...
No one said to make SC2 an MMO(??????), so I don't know what kind of idiocy this part of your post is about(??????????). If you didn't know, I actually enjoy RTS games, hence why I am on the TL forums and ... have been on previous NA teams...? dang, we goin deep here...
Yes, drop the p2w discussion. bringing it up in the first place showed how moronic you were being (I'd be nice and say ignorant but it is a clear disregard for the information anyway, even when it is typed in the previous post you quote l0lwtf). If I had said a different game would that have made you feel better? If I had said I was going to play LoL or Dota or CS:GO or even another RTS? I was never comparing the genres, or games. I simply stated what I was going to play instead of SC2 and how popular it was in korea. I never said anything about the games themselves in contrast to one another ;~;
Sc2 is in the top 10 whatever. Cool. If u actually look at some of my recent posts I've actually made the same reference. That's great for the game... but has nothing to do with my opinion of the mechanics, design or otherwise of it O:
Finally, not every word originated from twitch.tv chat. dawg aka dog is certainly not a 'dank meme'.
after like 3 fucking thousand posts you'd figure you'd at least read what people typed before you replied yo like srsly dood idk wtf i just replied to but u b dumb as poopy.
I enjoyed the Beta of Lotv, its a very exciting game, much faster as Hots. Hope its been supportet by the community like Wol and Hots and played by Progamers for long time.
I never denied the fact that Blade & Soul is a popular game, in fact that is part of my point. It is a popular game, so naturally it will have a lot of players watching the tournaments regardless of it's actual eSports quality.
A big game with high viewership does not automatically equal a healthy eSports is my point. You can take any popular game, throw money and tournaments at it and then slap the term eSports on it. Same thing with NCSoft and corporations in general - just because they make a lot of money does not automatically mean they are full of quality. In fact many of their methods threy do in Korea would be largely frowned upon over here. The entire korean gaming culture is a different beast altogether and would require a discussion on its own.
I'm also curious how the recent patches "directly coincide" with your opinion? Last time I checked they're greatly in line with what people in the community agree on - even if they're smaller than many would like them to be. Which is largely due to the release being pretty damn close.
Just to be clear, I'm not trying to tell you that you're shit or something like that. I just think that we should discuss this respectfully even though our viewpoints greatly differ. I already acknowledged your point about P2W, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to insult me. And "getting rustled" is definitely a twitch meme, even if it is an old one.
On October 28 2015 05:10 brickrd wrote: you can't complete the balance of the game without seeing months of pro level play, so they have to release it. complaints that it's premature are just a reflection of this community never ever being satisfied or happy, we're mostly a very negative and vindictive bunch
And that's the reason why we don't get good, varied gameplay. "We need to confirm for 22months straight that Mech TvP isn't viable, before we consider changing it!" 22months later: "We won't change balance now, pros will complain if we do too many balance changes. The game is what it is!"
Yes people need to stop with that "we just need to figure out xx, can't comment about viability yet"-nonsense. That's been consistently wrong ever since the first 3 months of WOL. I remember Artosis for like a whole year talking about TvP mech viability and how people just needs to figure it out because it's much harder than bio to play and yadayada.
Meanwhile Artosis didn't fucking play terran himself and the had ignorance to tell people who actually played the race at a much higher level that they didn't know what they were doing.
And the attitude is similarly to a lot of posters who repeat this mantra over and over. They are low level players them selves who have no idea what they are talking about, and have no actual specific strategic reasons for arguing why a certain strategy will be viable as the game gets more figured out. They just repeat it mindlessly.
And it was the same type of logic that let the Broodlord/Infestor regin for so long even though it was obvious 6-7 months before it got patched that it was broken.
On October 28 2015 12:51 ClaudeSc2 wrote: Really hate casuals complaining and saying they've reverted Legacy back to Hots because they can't handle macro mechanics. Why can't people just be happy by competing in Platinum league against other players who can't use macro mechanics correctly? Don't cry and say you'd be masters or GM based on your strategies, being able to understand how to pull off a specific strategy, 7 gate adept all in or a 2 base ling bane bust, doesn't mean you should be master or GM. I'm fine with a temp ban for this post also.
User was temp banned for this post.
Really?......he got temp banned for this post?...Really?.....Wtf is wrong with TL admins?.....Quite embarrassing i say...
Last time I seen, it is not allowed to comment about admins doing their job on TL..
I really don't know how i didn't get punished for my thoughts...weird no?
On October 28 2015 12:51 ClaudeSc2 wrote: Really hate casuals complaining and saying they've reverted Legacy back to Hots because they can't handle macro mechanics. Why can't people just be happy by competing in Platinum league against other players who can't use macro mechanics correctly? Don't cry and say you'd be masters or GM based on your strategies, being able to understand how to pull off a specific strategy, 7 gate adept all in or a 2 base ling bane bust, doesn't mean you should be master or GM. I'm fine with a temp ban for this post also.
User was temp banned for this post.
Really?......he got temp banned for this post?...Really?.....Wtf is wrong with TL admins?.....Quite embarrassing i say...
Last time I seen, it is not allowed to comment about admins doing their job on TL..
I really don't know how i didn't get punished for my thoughts...weird no?
He literally said that he is fine with a temporary ban for his comment. So he gets one. That's just the simple way these comments are (rightfully) treated on TL. If you know you take a chance of getting a ban or warning and post despite knowing you should just get punished for it.
On October 28 2015 12:51 ClaudeSc2 wrote: Really hate casuals complaining and saying they've reverted Legacy back to Hots because they can't handle macro mechanics. Why can't people just be happy by competing in Platinum league against other players who can't use macro mechanics correctly? Don't cry and say you'd be masters or GM based on your strategies, being able to understand how to pull off a specific strategy, 7 gate adept all in or a 2 base ling bane bust, doesn't mean you should be master or GM. I'm fine with a temp ban for this post also.
User was temp banned for this post.
Really?......he got temp banned for this post?...Really?.....Wtf is wrong with TL admins?.....Quite embarrassing i say...
Last time I seen, it is not allowed to comment about admins doing their job on TL..
I really don't know how i didn't get punished for my thoughts...weird no?
As someone else said, it's called martyring. If you say something in the lines of "I don't care about my ban", you will get banned because you're asking for it.
On October 28 2015 12:51 ClaudeSc2 wrote: Really hate casuals complaining and saying they've reverted Legacy back to Hots because they can't handle macro mechanics. Why can't people just be happy by competing in Platinum league against other players who can't use macro mechanics correctly? Don't cry and say you'd be masters or GM based on your strategies, being able to understand how to pull off a specific strategy, 7 gate adept all in or a 2 base ling bane bust, doesn't mean you should be master or GM. I'm fine with a temp ban for this post also.
User was temp banned for this post.
Really?......he got temp banned for this post?...Really?.....Wtf is wrong with TL admins?.....Quite embarrassing i say...
He said he was fine with a temp ban, so we obliged. See the TL rule on martyring for reference.
On October 27 2015 10:13 sushiman wrote: [...] But I'm not surprised it feels lacklustre - the expansion was forced out by the early decision of making a three-part story, not as a consequence of wanting to realize new and fresh ideas after HOTS, which shows.
you have a very good point. the addition of new units and features feels uncalled for. it's not like someone had a good idea for an addition to the game. rather it was forced by the marketing aspect, i.e. the urge to release a second expansion at a given date (bli$$con 2015) and the need to bring something new to the multiplayer. however, because it is refused to remove existing units from the game, a further addition leads to the overlapping at hand (colossus-disruptor, siege tank-liberator).
commerce destroyed the beauty of the starcraft universe. it is not just the problems with multiplayer, but also the cheesy and unoriginal storyline of the campaign.
On October 28 2015 05:10 brickrd wrote: you can't complete the balance of the game without seeing months of pro level play, so they have to release it. complaints that it's premature are just a reflection of this community never ever being satisfied or happy, we're mostly a very negative and vindictive bunch
And that's the reason why we don't get good, varied gameplay. "We need to confirm for 22months straight that Mech TvP isn't viable, before we consider changing it!" 22months later: "We won't change balance now, pros will complain if we do too many balance changes. The game is what it is!"
Yes people need to stop with that "we just need to figure out xx, can't comment about viability yet"-nonsense. That's been consistently wrong ever since the first 3 months of WOL. I remember Artosis for like a whole year talking about TvP mech viability and how people just needs to figure it out because it's much harder than bio to play and yadayada.
Meanwhile Artosis didn't fucking play terran himself and the had ignorance to tell people who actually played the race at a much higher level that they didn't know what they were doing.
And the attitude is similarly to a lot of posters who repeat this mantra over and over. They are low level players them selves who have no idea what they are talking about, and have no actual specific strategic reasons for arguing why a certain strategy will be viable as the game gets more figured out. They just repeat it mindlessly.
And it was the same type of logic that let the Broodlord/Infestor regin for so long even though it was obvious 6-7 months before it got patched that it was broken.
I think you have a valid point, that sometimes "waiting it out" isn't going to do anything. Broodlord/Infestor is a prime example and Blizzard was clearly in the wrong there.
However, with things being so new, there are definitely things that have yet to be figured out. We see people not building units simply because of their experience in HotS. How are Blizzard supposed to judge their LotV use if most of the players refuse to take a second look at them? And even if they do, they haven't been vocal about their experience (all I see is not really useful feedback. The valuable feedback that gets posted is addressed by Blizzard in the next update pretty often).
We're not talking about 6-12 months. But with the top players still looking at HotS, we're lacking a lot of the players that could potentially innovate the gameplay (and did so in the past). With all of these guys probably changing within the next 2 months tops, we're looking at a much smaller time scale.
Remember, there have been plenty of examples where waiting it out did work. It also has a lot to do with map design and general meta changes. We're still playing on HotS maps in LotV which plays a huge role in all of this.
And I don't think I have to mention Brood War - that seemed to turn out fine even though Blizzard did minimal work.
I actually thought a bit about what to write here. I can't say I played the beta too much since I stopped enjoying playing Starcraft a while ago. I still love watching it though.
Whenever I played LotV I didn't have fun. The new units felt forced. A huge airplane that can be reactored (is that even up to date?), I strange protoss ball that does stuff, an insanely high game pace and a very strange harassment model.
Harassment shouldn't be low risk, high reward. But well, it is. And that's just boring. There's no tactical finesse if you keep watching out for adepts because a warp prism will simply ravage your economy line. You got a Liberator behind your mineral line? Oh, damn. Sucks to be you.
No, really. LotV feels bad. I hoped to regain passion with that addon but I absolutely didn't. Even the campaign (or what I got to know from it with those prequel missions) feels lame. To me, StarCraft never was about a dark God arising. It was about mad Terran scientists creating a whole new race. When HotS came up with ancient Zerg, I already was like "wtf", but now with the whole Dark God story line, nahhh, sorry.
I am not going to buy LotV and it's a shame. I wish it was a good game but I'm sure I won't like it.
But to be honest, that's just me and my subjective point of view. The really, really, REALLY disappointing thing is that the TL.net community worked its heart out when it came down to the economy - and Blizzard refused to listen or even give a chance to those models.
I call absolute bullshit on those guys if they say "We're gonna listen to the community" to your face and have their ears plugged with wool. Earlier, I always thought "sucks to be a Blizz developer because whatever you do, there'll be lots of people saying 'you suck'". However by now, I just think that Blizzard missed a golden opportunity to engage the community, to IMPROVE their actual game, and ended the beta way too early. I get that this is not all fun and games, sales department have a schedule and so on, it's a huge multi-million dollar company.
But if I was someone who'd have worked on the economy models - I'd never touch StarCraft again. After seeing Heroes (which is decent but still a lackluster, not really lovely programmed game - just look at Misha's AI as an example or other bugs), seeing another WoW addon (I picked up Warlods of Draenor and tbh it sucked and pretty much raped the lore. I'm still not over MoP, too), seeing Blizzard release another unfinished game with LotV - haha, no, I'm not gonna buy this. The Blizzard of old that created StarCraft I, the Diablo and the Warcraft franchise is long gone. Wish we had early 2000'ers again, I'd jump on a fresh WoW anytime. Golden times.
Ultimately I can't help but feel a bit let down. I had enormous hopes for LotV and it seemed like early on in the beta they may be fulfilled. But with the eco changes being nothing more than dipping their toes in the shallow end, the Terran units being mostly uninspired, macro mechanics being removed then added then mostly unchanged and the changes just not being as drastic as I'd like I have my concerns that SC2 LotV simply won't fizzle out after a few years.
Well, it is really easy for me, I have said to myself, that if I don´t learn to like the LotV during beta, I will not buy it until HotS is so deserted, finding a match is almost impossible. I have tried hard to like it, but LotV for me is extremely frustrating and I just don´t enjoy the games, after the beta ends, I wouldn´t be able to test it any further, so I guess this is it, time to get disconnected with most things Starcraft, as everything will be LotV centric. Definitely a disappointment for me, I just hope another developer will join the market and is going to make an SC2 competitor.
On October 29 2015 01:22 MrFreeman wrote: Well, it is really easy for me, I have said to myself, that if I don´t learn to like the LotV during beta, I will not buy it until HotS is so deserted, finding a match is almost impossible. I have tried hard to like it, but LotV for me is extremely frustrating and I just don´t enjoy the games, after the beta ends, I wouldn´t be able to test it any further, so I guess this is it, time to get disconnected with most things Starcraft, as everything will be LotV centric. Definitely a disappointment for me, I just hope another developer will join the market and is going to make an SC2 competitor.
On October 29 2015 01:22 MrFreeman wrote: Well, it is really easy for me, I have said to myself, that if I don´t learn to like the LotV during beta, I will not buy it until HotS is so deserted, finding a match is almost impossible. I have tried hard to like it, but LotV for me is extremely frustrating and I just don´t enjoy the games, after the beta ends, I wouldn´t be able to test it any further, so I guess this is it, time to get disconnected with most things Starcraft, as everything will be LotV centric. Definitely a disappointment for me, I just hope another developer will join the market and is going to make an SC2 competitor.
there are still ppl that play WOL lol.
It's still a great game. I prefer 50% of the wol matchups to their Hots counterparts.
But to be honest, that's just me and my subjective point of view. The really, really, REALLY disappointing thing is that the TL.net community worked its heart out when it came down to the economy - and Blizzard refused to listen or even give a chance to those models.
I call absolute bullshit on those guys if they say "We're gonna listen to the community" to your face and have their ears plugged with wool. Earlier, I always thought "sucks to be a Blizz developer because whatever you do, there'll be lots of people saying 'you suck'". However by now, I just think that Blizzard missed a golden opportunity to engage the community, to IMPROVE their actual game, and ended the beta way too early. I get that this is not all fun and games, sales department have a schedule and so on, it's a huge multi-million dollar company.
But if I was someone who'd have worked on the economy models - I'd never touch StarCraft again. After seeing Heroes (which is decent but still a lackluster, not really lovely programmed game - just look at Misha's AI as an example or other bugs),
Thats actually a really good point. Blizzard missed a huge opportunity working more closely with the community and especially people on TL/TL staff. I think no one would even be disappointed if they released campaign but put multiplayer under a "still in beta" headline.
But anyway, as I keep saying I think people are calling the doom too early. We have yet to watch that Blizzard panel about SC2. If it turns out they're going to say "Well, LotV is ready boys, time for allied commanders to be the next cool thing!" then I wholeheartedly agree. But until then I'm going to just enjoy LotV as much as I can and be a little bit more patient.
On October 29 2015 01:22 MrFreeman wrote: Well, it is really easy for me, I have said to myself, that if I don´t learn to like the LotV during beta, I will not buy it until HotS is so deserted, finding a match is almost impossible. I have tried hard to like it, but LotV for me is extremely frustrating and I just don´t enjoy the games, after the beta ends, I wouldn´t be able to test it any further, so I guess this is it, time to get disconnected with most things Starcraft, as everything will be LotV centric. Definitely a disappointment for me, I just hope another developer will join the market and is going to make an SC2 competitor.
there are still ppl that play WOL lol.
Yes, what bothers me is, that if LotV gets better, I would have no way to find out. Maybe I will eventually pick it up when they´ll be selling it for $10 or less. But yea, I hope I will still get at least two more years out of HotS.
On October 29 2015 01:22 MrFreeman wrote: Well, it is really easy for me, I have said to myself, that if I don´t learn to like the LotV during beta, I will not buy it until HotS is so deserted, finding a match is almost impossible. I have tried hard to like it, but LotV for me is extremely frustrating and I just don´t enjoy the games, after the beta ends, I wouldn´t be able to test it any further, so I guess this is it, time to get disconnected with most things Starcraft, as everything will be LotV centric. Definitely a disappointment for me, I just hope another developer will join the market and is going to make an SC2 competitor.
You can still watch the pros, and maybe you will learn to like it from them.
On October 29 2015 01:22 MrFreeman wrote: Well, it is really easy for me, I have said to myself, that if I don´t learn to like the LotV during beta, I will not buy it until HotS is so deserted, finding a match is almost impossible. I have tried hard to like it, but LotV for me is extremely frustrating and I just don´t enjoy the games, after the beta ends, I wouldn´t be able to test it any further, so I guess this is it, time to get disconnected with most things Starcraft, as everything will be LotV centric. Definitely a disappointment for me, I just hope another developer will join the market and is going to make an SC2 competitor.
You can still watch the pros, and maybe you will learn to like it from them.
I have tried that, there was a lot of LotV events, but I was never much into that anyway, since I always loved to make my own strategies, think of my own synergies. Ofc, there were awful compared to what pros were coming up with, but they were mine. That is also probably my favourite part about LotV, since I really like the new units and the synergies they offer.
Hm, I don't think that the game is in a horrible place right now. While it's going to be a much bigger change from HotS than HotS was from WoL, there have been some nice changes, and it feels a bit fresh. My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game. I don't know if that will remain the case as the metagame advances. I think the Shoutcraft tournament will be an interesting view at the game's success, though.
I don't know why people would expect any changes between now and release. It's 2 weeks away. There is not enough time to make substantial changes now.
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
But that really isn't that much different from what we had before in HotS or even in WoL. Casual people were losing all the time because of slow reactions and bad scouting/reading of opponent's strategy.
On October 27 2015 16:12 summerloud wrote: put your hope in mods, with no more expansions to look forward to, now is the time to mod the game in the direction the community wants
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
That was always and will always be the case with starcraft, though. The decision making happens largely in your replay analysis, and in the game you just apply your knowledge and judge based on your experience.
Starcraft was never a game where you could sit back and think "Hmmm, what am I going to do next?". Players that do that are usually very low level and stop doing this once they've gathered more experience. And then it's all natural.
This does not mean it's not a strategic game. In fact it makes it makes good strategies all the more important since the best ones are those who are either so powerful that they don't have to adapt, or so flexible that they're able to adapt to nearly every possible reaction from the opponent.
tough to really balance when no pros are taking it seriously. When the game is fully released, I expect a LOT of patches after the first few months.
it's really too bad they didn't just remove macro mechanics, that's when the beta was at it's best. But I'm looking forward to the 12 worker start and mineral patch changes, I really like what they did there.
On October 29 2015 07:29 emc wrote: tough to really balance when no pros are taking it seriously. When the game is fully released, I expect a LOT of patches after the first few months.
it's really too bad they didn't just remove macro mechanics, that's when the beta was at it's best. But I'm looking forward to the 12 worker start and mineral patch changes, I really like what they did there.
Where are you getting this "no pros are taking it seriously" when literally the only 16 players not playing lotv full time are players at Blizzcon?
All Koreans switched month ago, ugh I wish people would stop saying "when the best switch yada yada".
On October 28 2015 05:10 brickrd wrote: you can't complete the balance of the game without seeing months of pro level play, so they have to release it. complaints that it's premature are just a reflection of this community never ever being satisfied or happy, we're mostly a very negative and vindictive bunch
And that's the reason why we don't get good, varied gameplay. "We need to confirm for 22months straight that Mech TvP isn't viable, before we consider changing it!" 22months later: "We won't change balance now, pros will complain if we do too many balance changes. The game is what it is!"
lol exactly!
I've been on a rollercoster with this BETA; at first i was super excited about the goals, like changing the eco, making mech viable vs P, no more Colossus as the centre piece, lurker; but as things progressed i was more and more disappointed with the direction. Air units to strong, all about fast units and not enough positional play, not enough big changes to the eco
So i don't know, it's more adventurous then HOTS, but is it enough? I'll wait on buying it like i did with HOTS.
Maybe it just takes really(REALLY) good players to play LotV. David Kim has said multiplet times that they're still waiting for more SC2 Pros to switch to LotV.
This is actually really bad example of lotv, because a good Protoss player would crush Zerg trying to go swarm hosts and just because it's Life who did it doesn't mean that's how lotv will look like ;;
Watch Solar and TRUE play, that's how Zerg is and will be played.
On October 28 2015 05:10 brickrd wrote: you can't complete the balance of the game without seeing months of pro level play, so they have to release it. complaints that it's premature are just a reflection of this community never ever being satisfied or happy, we're mostly a very negative and vindictive bunch
And that's the reason why we don't get good, varied gameplay. "We need to confirm for 22months straight that Mech TvP isn't viable, before we consider changing it!" 22months later: "We won't change balance now, pros will complain if we do too many balance changes. The game is what it is!"
lol exactly!
I've been on a rollercoster with this BETA; at first i was super excited about the goals, like changing the eco, making mech viable vs P, no more Colossus as the centre piece, lurker; but as things progressed i was more and more disappointed with the direction. Air units to strong, all about fast units and not enough positional play, not enough big changes to the eco
So i don't know, it's more adventurous then HOTS, but is it enough? I'll wait on buying it like i did with HOTS.
Maybe it just takes really(REALLY) good players to play LotV. David Kim has said multiplet times that they're still waiting for more SC2 Pros to switch to LotV.
This is actually really bad example of lotv, because a good Protoss player would crush Zerg trying to go swarm hosts and just because it's Life who did it doesn't mean that's how lotv will look like ;;
Watch Solar and TRUE play, that's how Zerg is and will be played.
You're right, especially about Solar and TRUE. Though I just wanted to point out that there will be players trying out different stuff that could potentially work, whereas right now everyone is playing kind of the same way since there is a "beta meta". So once the majority of HotS players switches over, we will see a lot of different stuff tried out again.
On October 28 2015 05:10 brickrd wrote: you can't complete the balance of the game without seeing months of pro level play, so they have to release it. complaints that it's premature are just a reflection of this community never ever being satisfied or happy, we're mostly a very negative and vindictive bunch
And that's the reason why we don't get good, varied gameplay. "We need to confirm for 22months straight that Mech TvP isn't viable, before we consider changing it!" 22months later: "We won't change balance now, pros will complain if we do too many balance changes. The game is what it is!"
lol exactly!
I've been on a rollercoster with this BETA; at first i was super excited about the goals, like changing the eco, making mech viable vs P, no more Colossus as the centre piece, lurker; but as things progressed i was more and more disappointed with the direction. Air units to strong, all about fast units and not enough positional play, not enough big changes to the eco
So i don't know, it's more adventurous then HOTS, but is it enough? I'll wait on buying it like i did with HOTS.
Maybe it just takes really(REALLY) good players to play LotV. David Kim has said multiplet times that they're still waiting for more SC2 Pros to switch to LotV.
This is actually really bad example of lotv, because a good Protoss player would crush Zerg trying to go swarm hosts and just because it's Life who did it doesn't mean that's how lotv will look like ;;
Watch Solar and TRUE play, that's how Zerg is and will be played.
You're right, especially about Solar and TRUE. Though I just wanted to point out that there will be players trying out different stuff that could potentially work, whereas right now everyone is playing kind of the same way since there is a "beta meta". So once the majority of HotS players switches over, we will see a lot of different stuff tried out again.
Of course they will try out new stuff. Its a "new" game. That always happens. But it wont stay for long. After a short while there will not be any more new stuff. At some point the *perfect* build (or perfect builds) will emerge and everybody will be doing the same stuff over and over. Its how it always goes. It would be nice if it didnt, but to accomplish something like that is really really hard and I dont blame blizzard for not being able to do it.
Thats why its so important to see what happens with Blizzard's SC2 Panel. I agree that it is unlikely that it will be just like Brood War where we see different stuff happen without any interference from Blizzard, but realistically they could continue work on the multiplayer with a proper business model.
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
That was always and will always be the case with starcraft, though. The decision making happens largely in your replay analysis, and in the game you just apply your knowledge and judge based on your experience.
Starcraft was never a game where you could sit back and think "Hmmm, what am I going to do next?". Players that do that are usually very low level and stop doing this once they've gathered more experience. And then it's all natural.
This does not mean it's not a strategic game. In fact it makes it makes good strategies all the more important since the best ones are those who are either so powerful that they don't have to adapt, or so flexible that they're able to adapt to nearly every possible reaction from the opponent.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
But that really isn't that much different from what we had before in HotS or even in WoL. Casual people were losing all the time because of slow reactions and bad scouting/reading of opponent's strategy.
Yea but he makes THAT EXACT POINT, that lotv was supposed to make the game less stressful for casuals. The result is that the target has not been reached, casuals will be even more stressed due to higher demand and faster game pace
Its like dk thought "yea lets make it really easy to get into sc2 with automating some tasks" and afterwards he was like "woa, we just broke the game for pros, screw the casuals lets revert changes". Of course the point above was timings and fast decision making being tough for casuals but macro changes belong in the discussion, i feel
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
That was always and will always be the case with starcraft, though. The decision making happens largely in your replay analysis, and in the game you just apply your knowledge and judge based on your experience.
Starcraft was never a game where you could sit back and think "Hmmm, what am I going to do next?". Players that do that are usually very low level and stop doing this once they've gathered more experience. And then it's all natural.
This does not mean it's not a strategic game. In fact it makes it makes good strategies all the more important since the best ones are those who are either so powerful that they don't have to adapt, or so flexible that they're able to adapt to nearly every possible reaction from the opponent.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
The fact that the game is too fast for your liking does not change the fact that this was always the case, even in HotS and WoL. The main difference between the previous two expansions is the fact that there are many safe build orders whereas LotV does not have those yet. Technically LotV is not much faster since yeah, aggression happens a lot earlier, but so does defense.
I'm curious, have you ever played any other competetive game out there? As far as I'm concerned, a round of DotA2 can be equally stressing if not more stressing than a round of SC2.
The harass point is something I read repeatedly from lower level players (not meant as a diss, just an observation) so there seems to be a lot of truth in there. Though personally I think builds that are safer vs harassment were always an unequal problem in SC2 and is nothing exclusive to LotV.
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
But that really isn't that much different from what we had before in HotS or even in WoL. Casual people were losing all the time because of slow reactions and bad scouting/reading of opponent's strategy.
But my problem isn´t the losing, it´s the winning, I don´t enjoy winning at all. When getting used to HotS, I didn´t have this problem at all tbh. I mean, it has really became just way to fast paced, to active, to exciting maybe, for me.
But not in BW, KeksX. You said "Starcraft", like Dustin Browder used to do talking about SC2 I believe. It is not a common point between the two games, so you can't call that characteristic of it "Starcraft". Starcraft is a strategy game and you don't just do decision making in replay analysis no no no. That is because of the volatility of SC2 indeed like it has been pointed out. Can't plan a lot of things, mostly you have to go for harrass aggression and defense, reactively, because you can't rely what you have will endure but you can rely harassing will create opportunities for terrible terrible damage. I would dare say, in a way essentially SC2 is pretty random haha (more so with LotV it seems... I don't remember that WoL was this messy with fast AoE everywhere all the time... lol)
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
That was always and will always be the case with starcraft, though. The decision making happens largely in your replay analysis, and in the game you just apply your knowledge and judge based on your experience.
Starcraft was never a game where you could sit back and think "Hmmm, what am I going to do next?". Players that do that are usually very low level and stop doing this once they've gathered more experience. And then it's all natural.
This does not mean it's not a strategic game. In fact it makes it makes good strategies all the more important since the best ones are those who are either so powerful that they don't have to adapt, or so flexible that they're able to adapt to nearly every possible reaction from the opponent.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
I wanted to reply to KeksX, but your reply was pretty much what I would have written anyway and even my feelings and skill level seem to be the same. In LotV, no matter if I win or lose, I´m just glad it´s over. Actually, I mind losing much less than in HotS, but that may not even be a good thing.
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
But that really isn't that much different from what we had before in HotS or even in WoL. Casual people were losing all the time because of slow reactions and bad scouting/reading of opponent's strategy.
Yea but he makes THAT EXACT POINT, that lotv was supposed to make the game less stressful for casuals. The result is that the target has not been reached, casuals will be even more stressed due to higher demand and faster game pace
Its like dk thought "yea lets make it really easy to get into sc2 with automating some tasks" and afterwards he was like "woa, we just broke the game for pros, screw the casuals lets revert changes". Of course the point above was timings and fast decision making being tough for casuals but macro changes belong in the discussion, i feel
Yes, when I found about MM changes, I got back into beta big time, when they reverted back, I was just so disappointed, I hoped they would keep on that road. I mean, inject is better, at least I can play Zerg now, but the game itself just isn´t fun, just stress .
On October 29 2015 22:34 ProMeTheus112 wrote: But not in BW, KeksX. You said "Starcraft", like Dustin Browder used to do talking about SC2 I believe. It is not a common point between the two games, so you can't call that characteristic of it "Starcraft". Starcraft is a strategy game and you don't just do decision making in replay analysis no no no. That is because of the volatility of SC2 indeed like it has been pointed out. Can't plan a lot of things, mostly you have to go for harrass aggression and defense, reactively, because you can't rely what you have will endure but you can rely harassing will create opportunities for terrible terrible damage. I would dare say, in a way essentially SC2 is pretty random haha (more so with LotV it seems... I don't remember that WoL was this messy with fast AoE everywhere all the time... lol)
It's the lack of positional advantage you are talking about. I don't agree that's related to speed of the game or harass. You can easily have strong defensive tools that allow you to hold a position cost efficiently while having fast-moving harass units at the same time.
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
That was always and will always be the case with starcraft, though. The decision making happens largely in your replay analysis, and in the game you just apply your knowledge and judge based on your experience.
Starcraft was never a game where you could sit back and think "Hmmm, what am I going to do next?". Players that do that are usually very low level and stop doing this once they've gathered more experience. And then it's all natural.
This does not mean it's not a strategic game. In fact it makes it makes good strategies all the more important since the best ones are those who are either so powerful that they don't have to adapt, or so flexible that they're able to adapt to nearly every possible reaction from the opponent.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
The fact that the game is too fast for your liking does not change the fact that this was always the case, even in HotS and WoL. The main difference between the previous two expansions is the fact that there are many safe build orders whereas LotV does not have those yet. Technically LotV is not much faster since yeah, aggression happens a lot earlier, but so does defense.
I'm curious, have you ever played any other competetive game out there? As far as I'm concerned, a round of DotA2 can be equally stressing if not more stressing than a round of SC2.
The harass point is something I read repeatedly from lower level players (not meant as a diss, just an observation) so there seems to be a lot of truth in there. Though personally I think builds that are safer vs harassment were always an unequal problem in SC2 and is nothing exclusive to LotV.
As for me, I played WoW arenas on, I´d say high level. I´ve never been to tournaments, but we´ve made top10 on Arena Tournament multiple times with 2v2 and 3v3, then we switched to LoL, it was time when a lot of top guys were WoW PvP guys unhappy with Cata and saw LoL overtaking. We were participating in some European league and stayed in top 20 for some time, but since our friends who switched as well were doing much better and actually made it to the big stage, I guess it was just not enoug, being only "allright" so we fell apart, since then, I´ve gone into full casual mode and switched to SC since I had no team and LoL with random ppl was very frustrating. I can actually be very calm in HotS and carry out my little silly strategies, I wasn´t able to do that in LotV, I may even be playing better in LotV, but I just don´t enjoy playing in the first place. For me, it is just a game, a way to relax, I don´t want to be trying hard, I just want to have a good time.
On October 29 2015 22:34 ProMeTheus112 wrote: But not in BW, KeksX. [snip to make post smaller]
I'd argue you do more decision making in replay analysis than in the real game. Decision making is a calculation of risk vs reward, "what has the highest chance of a positive outcome for me?" etc. All those things take time and knowledge(in the sense that you need to know what your opponent is doing), both if which are either not there(time is money in SC2) or uncomplete(scouting does not always give you 100% info).
So you have to rely on your experience from past games which you only get by analysing (your own) replays.
Remember that decision making is not only "well I get a roach warren and then build roach in response to his mech". It can be as small as reading your opponent's current plan by seeing 3 marines in front of his natural and counting the number of drones you can make before building units. You don't analyse stuff like the thoroughly in a game, you do it beforehand so your reaction/response happens immediately in a future game.
And the more analysis you do, the more experience you get, the more comfortable you feel playing. All of these things make the game less stressing, so naturally a "new game" is just all the more stressing especially if it feels more fast-paced at the same time.
This has been my experience in all of the past Starcraft versions. Stress -> Analysis / Experience -> Comfort.
I acknowledge that LotV brought in some plays that are more stressing, but given time these will either be figured out(giving knowledge/experience and thus ocmfort) or Blizzard might patch them out if the majority of players has a problem with this. Hider already made a valid point about this: positional play. The Lurker for example gave me ( as a zerg user ) the option to be much more safe in certain scenarios while I can focus on other things.
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
That was always and will always be the case with starcraft, though. The decision making happens largely in your replay analysis, and in the game you just apply your knowledge and judge based on your experience.
Starcraft was never a game where you could sit back and think "Hmmm, what am I going to do next?". Players that do that are usually very low level and stop doing this once they've gathered more experience. And then it's all natural.
This does not mean it's not a strategic game. In fact it makes it makes good strategies all the more important since the best ones are those who are either so powerful that they don't have to adapt, or so flexible that they're able to adapt to nearly every possible reaction from the opponent.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
The fact that the game is too fast for your liking does not change the fact that this was always the case, even in HotS and WoL. The main difference between the previous two expansions is the fact that there are many safe build orders whereas LotV does not have those yet. Technically LotV is not much faster since yeah, aggression happens a lot earlier, but so does defense.
I'm curious, have you ever played any other competetive game out there? As far as I'm concerned, a round of DotA2 can be equally stressing if not more stressing than a round of SC2.
The harass point is something I read repeatedly from lower level players (not meant as a diss, just an observation) so there seems to be a lot of truth in there. Though personally I think builds that are safer vs harassment were always an unequal problem in SC2 and is nothing exclusive to LotV.
As for me, I played WoW arenas on, I´d say high level. I´ve never been to tournaments, but we´ve made top10 on Arena [snip to make post smaller].
Well you might not be calling it "tryhard" and yourself a "casual"... But you have to pick up ideas for those strategies you executed in HotS from somewhere, right? There are a ton of resources for HotS strategies and if you wanted to execute a build order for your own comfort, you could look it up and get 100s of them. So while you don't do the work yourself, you still get to reap the benefits of others' work.
This will be the same once LotV is figured out more. People will put out guides, tutorials, build orders and all that so that you can consume it and apply to your play. Even just watching player streams where you saw something and said to yourself "I'm gonna try that myself!" are greatly improving your play.
And with that type of stuff, you're not considered a casual anymore. Even the fact that you're posting on TL potentially shows you're not one. "Real Casuals" barely do any of this, fire up the game and struggle to build a Spawning Pool in time. "Real casuals"(sorry, I hate that term too but I can't think of a better one) were already frustrated with WoL being too fast...
If anything, all this shows is that the game might be too hard/fast/stressing/messy for anyone, not just casuals. But that is something I cannot possibly answer.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
Yeah, it's true. It gonna be a game for elite players. I am gold player too, and I had some bad times to deal with LOTV at the beginning. I think you need to have a "big APM" to be efficient, and to focus on details to avoid to die on an early timing push or harass. All those things are natural for good players but not for the beginner, and I think they will stop to play LOTV way before to become a good one.
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
That was always and will always be the case with starcraft, though. The decision making happens largely in your replay analysis, and in the game you just apply your knowledge and judge based on your experience.
Starcraft was never a game where you could sit back and think "Hmmm, what am I going to do next?". Players that do that are usually very low level and stop doing this once they've gathered more experience. And then it's all natural.
This does not mean it's not a strategic game. In fact it makes it makes good strategies all the more important since the best ones are those who are either so powerful that they don't have to adapt, or so flexible that they're able to adapt to nearly every possible reaction from the opponent.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
You're so full of shit.Farewell then.One less whiner is always good.Dude, how can you say that LotV it's a complete stress.If this is the case you have issues.You must be playing only to win.I bet you're a rage quitter. Back to LoL with you. Too bad you didn't actually learn how to really enjoy the game and have FUN! Congratz to the one guy/girl who came up with the idea for "Uninstall" button.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
Yeah, it's true. It gonna be a game for elite players. I am gold player too, and I had some bad times to deal with LOTV at the beginning. I think you need to have a "big APM" to be efficient, and to focus on details to avoid to die on an early timing push or harass. All those things are natural for good players but not for the beginner, and I think they will stop to play LOTV way before to become a good one.
Do you think that Archon Mode is a good solution to this problem, or would you say the problem should be solved at the core?
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
Yeah, it's true. It gonna be a game for elite players. I am gold player too, and I had some bad times to deal with LOTV at the beginning. I think you need to have a "big APM" to be efficient, and to focus on details to avoid to die on an early timing push or harass. All those things are natural for good players but not for the beginner, and I think they will stop to play LOTV way before to become a good one.
big APM...do you think that haveing 200 APM makes u enjoy the game more, or that you're better and not die to early cheese?. APM is not important for beginners.What important is to spend those minerals.Just spend it first, after that you'll learn how to spend it wisely, then you'll find out you can expand , and then spend some more, then you die to some fucking cheese,...what do you do then?.....Repeat the process but you'll try to anticipate any cheese and you scout and so , step bu step, you're LEARNING the game and the FUN factor comes into place.Then you can't stop playing ! This is Starcraft! This is the feeling that most of us have when we are playing starcraft! FUN!!! and of course COMPETITION on ladder is the cherry on top. GL HF!! Beginners should just have fun first with the campaign.It will teach you the basics and more.If you're a beginner you cannot hit the ladder instantly as you will get crushed.Losing 5-6 games in a row and absolutely get stomped is not FUN. It's a real time strategy game and it takes time to learn how to play it.It's not a MOBA- 1 click+ 4 buttons gameplay. HAVE FUN!!! this is all that matters!!
On October 29 2015 22:34 ProMeTheus112 wrote: But not in BW, KeksX. You said "Starcraft", like Dustin Browder used to do talking about SC2 I believe. It is not a common point between the two games, so you can't call that characteristic of it "Starcraft". Starcraft is a strategy game and you don't just do decision making in replay analysis no no no. That is because of the volatility of SC2 indeed like it has been pointed out. Can't plan a lot of things, mostly you have to go for harrass aggression and defense, reactively, because you can't rely what you have will endure but you can rely harassing will create opportunities for terrible terrible damage. I would dare say, in a way essentially SC2 is pretty random haha (more so with LotV it seems... I don't remember that WoL was this messy with fast AoE everywhere all the time... lol)
It's the lack of positional advantage you are talking about. I don't agree that's related to speed of the game or harass. You can easily have strong defensive tools that allow you to hold a position cost efficiently while having fast-moving harass units at the same time.
Ok yeah I would argue it is both but I don't know all that well cause I have only played a bit of WoL. Volatility I think is something that, if its scale is too big in the game, it breaks planning a lot so it breaks strategic thinking in game. And I think from what I have seen, WoL is less volatile than LotV even if it is still quite a lot (banelings, fungal growth, colossus, storm, vortex, seeker missile, ghost EMP, are very fast AoE which you are constantly struggling to prevent from decimating your army, and a lot of the game is about trying to avoid this damage to the second. It has to do with positional advantage also indeed).
On October 29 2015 22:34 ProMeTheus112 wrote: But not in BW, KeksX. [snip to make post smaller]
I'd argue you do more decision making in replay analysis than in the real game. Decision making is a calculation of risk vs reward, "what has the highest chance of a positive outcome for me?" etc. All those things take time and knowledge(in the sense that you need to know what your opponent is doing), both if which are either not there(time is money in SC2) or uncomplete(scouting does not always give you 100% info).
So you have to rely on your experience from past games which you only get by analysing (your own) replays.
Remember that decision making is not only "well I get a roach warren and then build roach in response to his mech". It can be as small as reading your opponent's current plan by seeing 3 marines in front of his natural and counting the number of drones you can make before building units. You don't analyse stuff like the thoroughly in a game, you do it beforehand so your reaction/response happens immediately in a future game.
And the more analysis you do, the more experience you get, the more comfortable you feel playing. All of these things make the game less stressing, so naturally a "new game" is just all the more stressing especially if it feels more fast-paced at the same time.
This has been my experience in all of the past Starcraft versions. Stress -> Analysis / Experience -> Comfort.
I acknowledge that LotV brought in some plays that are more stressing, but given time these will either be figured out(giving knowledge/experience and thus ocmfort) or Blizzard might patch them out if the majority of players has a problem with this. Hider already made a valid point about this: positional play. The Lurker for example gave me ( as a zerg user ) the option to be much more safe in certain scenarios while I can focus on other things.
It is true, given the real time nature of RTS, that it is needed to construct a lot of your strategic tools through replay analysis, though this is true of Chess as well where you study openings and even calculate end game scenarios. There is a lot less time in a RTS to analyse stuff in game so you must rely on various pre-made answers to certain things that you see. But there is still a lot of room, in game, for strategic decision making, which players in bw use in different amounts. Even at pro level, some players, like Reach or Iloveoov, would base their play on a very solid standard game. Others would do a lot more improvisation and unexpected things, like Boxer, and not only in the early game, things he couldn't have planned to do in that game before the opportunity came up. And often, completely unique, not done the same way in another game again. In Korea, at one point we heard they were referring to skill broken down not only in micro and macro, but also game running. Some players are more micro focused, more macro focused, more game running focused. Of course everyone does a bit of everything but you can create your style emphasizing on some things. I remember the commentators on games sometimes drawing lines on the map after a game to describe what happened, what the player did on a large scale. Personally, I expect this quality from a great RTS, I love micro and macro but I love to have this going on all the time as well, and indeed when I play bw I try to play each game differently, adapting and making strategic decisions based on what happens and what I see. There is lots of room for this, in bw, for what has been simply called creativity also. But, I have not so much experience of SC2, so I don't want to say there is none of that in it. It just seems to me, mostly because of the sheer volatility and lesser positional play (but I think also because of the general design of the races, tech tree costs units etc, design/balance), there is a lot less room for that. It is the main reason why I have not kept playing it.
On October 29 2015 22:34 ProMeTheus112 wrote: But not in BW, KeksX. [snip to make post smaller]
I'd argue you do more decision making in replay analysis than in the real game. Decision making is a calculation of risk vs reward, "what has the highest chance of a positive outcome for me?" etc. All those things take time and knowledge(in the sense that you need to know what your opponent is doing), both if which are either not there(time is money in SC2) or uncomplete(scouting does not always give you 100% info).
So you have to rely on your experience from past games which you only get by analysing (your own) replays.
Remember that decision making is not only "well I get a roach warren and then build roach in response to his mech". It can be as small as reading your opponent's current plan by seeing 3 marines in front of his natural and counting the number of drones you can make before building units. You don't analyse stuff like the thoroughly in a game, you do it beforehand so your reaction/response happens immediately in a future game.
And the more analysis you do, the more experience you get, the more comfortable you feel playing. All of these things make the game less stressing, so naturally a "new game" is just all the more stressing especially if it feels more fast-paced at the same time.
This has been my experience in all of the past Starcraft versions. Stress -> Analysis / Experience -> Comfort.
I acknowledge that LotV brought in some plays that are more stressing, but given time these will either be figured out(giving knowledge/experience and thus ocmfort) or Blizzard might patch them out if the majority of players has a problem with this. Hider already made a valid point about this: positional play. The Lurker for example gave me ( as a zerg user ) the option to be much more safe in certain scenarios while I can focus on other things.
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
That was always and will always be the case with starcraft, though. The decision making happens largely in your replay analysis, and in the game you just apply your knowledge and judge based on your experience.
Starcraft was never a game where you could sit back and think "Hmmm, what am I going to do next?". Players that do that are usually very low level and stop doing this once they've gathered more experience. And then it's all natural.
This does not mean it's not a strategic game. In fact it makes it makes good strategies all the more important since the best ones are those who are either so powerful that they don't have to adapt, or so flexible that they're able to adapt to nearly every possible reaction from the opponent.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
The fact that the game is too fast for your liking does not change the fact that this was always the case, even in HotS and WoL. The main difference between the previous two expansions is the fact that there are many safe build orders whereas LotV does not have those yet. Technically LotV is not much faster since yeah, aggression happens a lot earlier, but so does defense.
I'm curious, have you ever played any other competetive game out there? As far as I'm concerned, a round of DotA2 can be equally stressing if not more stressing than a round of SC2.
The harass point is something I read repeatedly from lower level players (not meant as a diss, just an observation) so there seems to be a lot of truth in there. Though personally I think builds that are safer vs harassment were always an unequal problem in SC2 and is nothing exclusive to LotV.
As for me, I played WoW arenas on, I´d say high level. I´ve never been to tournaments, but we´ve made top10 on Arena [snip to make post smaller].
Well you might not be calling it "tryhard" and yourself a "casual"... But you have to pick up ideas for those strategies you executed in HotS from somewhere, right? There are a ton of resources for HotS strategies and if you wanted to execute a build order for your own comfort, you could look it up and get 100s of them. So while you don't do the work yourself, you still get to reap the benefits of others' work.
This will be the same once LotV is figured out more. People will put out guides, tutorials, build orders and all that so that you can consume it and apply to your play. Even just watching player streams where you saw something and said to yourself "I'm gonna try that myself!" are greatly improving your play.
And with that type of stuff, you're not considered a casual anymore. Even the fact that you're posting on TL potentially shows you're not one. "Real Casuals" barely do any of this, fire up the game and struggle to build a Spawning Pool in time. "Real casuals"(sorry, I hate that term too but I can't think of a better one) were already frustrated with WoL being too fast...
If anything, all this shows is that the game might be too hard/fast/stressing/messy for anyone, not just casuals. But that is something I cannot possibly answer.
I thing we just don´t understand each other. I don´t really disagree with you and I don´t thing the other guys do either. We just think that LotV has pushed a game in the wrong direction for a great many players and made it harder for new players to get going. I actually did the analysis, I did the math, since I really wanted to like LotV, I don´t normally do these things, I never watch HotS replays, I don´t care, I´m just out to have fun, I don´t want to be better (I don´t want to start pushing myself again, since then it will be hard to stop), but with LotV, I did all this and just figured out, that game rewards you, if you are active, you have to develop your units and you have to make use of them, you can´t just build your army and do nothing, that will catch you out immidiately. Again, if I was very skilled, I will probably be really happy with that, but I´m not, a lot of people are not and I think that is the problem. As for strategies, I have never looked for strategies, it defeats the purpose. For me, I think of strategies when I´m driving, since I can´t do much else, it is one of most fun part of the game, to think about new strategies, it is what pushes me to fire up the game and test them out. I have actually had a ton of fun thinking of strategies for LotV, since I love the new units, it was the gameplay and winning. that just doesn´t do the job.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
Yeah, it's true. It gonna be a game for elite players. I am gold player too, and I had some bad times to deal with LOTV at the beginning. I think you need to have a "big APM" to be efficient, and to focus on details to avoid to die on an early timing push or harass. All those things are natural for good players but not for the beginner, and I think they will stop to play LOTV way before to become a good one.
Do you think that Archon Mode is a good solution to this problem, or would you say the problem should be solved at the core?
Archon is a big NO-GO for me, since I have picked SC2 only because I didn´t like relying on anyone else, for me, this attribute, is the one biggest reason I even like SC2.
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
That was always and will always be the case with starcraft, though. The decision making happens largely in your replay analysis, and in the game you just apply your knowledge and judge based on your experience.
Starcraft was never a game where you could sit back and think "Hmmm, what am I going to do next?". Players that do that are usually very low level and stop doing this once they've gathered more experience. And then it's all natural.
This does not mean it's not a strategic game. In fact it makes it makes good strategies all the more important since the best ones are those who are either so powerful that they don't have to adapt, or so flexible that they're able to adapt to nearly every possible reaction from the opponent.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
You're so full of shit.Farewell then.One less whiner is always good.Dude, how can you say that LotV it's a complete stress.If this is the case you have issues.You must be playing only to win.I bet you're a rage quitter. Back to LoL with you. Too bad you didn't actually learn how to really enjoy the game and have FUN! Congratz to the one guy/girl who came up with the idea for "Uninstall" button.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
Yeah, it's true. It gonna be a game for elite players. I am gold player too, and I had some bad times to deal with LOTV at the beginning. I think you need to have a "big APM" to be efficient, and to focus on details to avoid to die on an early timing push or harass. All those things are natural for good players but not for the beginner, and I think they will stop to play LOTV way before to become a good one.
big APM...do you think that haveing 200 APM makes u enjoy the game more, or that you're better and not die to early cheese?. APM is not important for beginners.What important is to spend those minerals.Just spend it first, after that you'll learn how to spend it wisely, then you'll find out you can expand , and then spend some more, then you die to some fucking cheese,...what do you do then?.....Repeat the process but you'll try to anticipate any cheese and you scout and so , step bu step, you're LEARNING the game and the FUN factor comes into place.Then you can't stop playing ! This is Starcraft! This is the feeling that most of us have when we are playing starcraft! FUN!!! and of course COMPETITION on ladder is the cherry on top. GL HF!! Beginners should just have fun first with the campaign.It will teach you the basics and more.If you're a beginner you cannot hit the ladder instantly as you will get crushed.Losing 5-6 games in a row and absolutely get stomped is not FUN. It's a real time strategy game and it takes time to learn how to play it.It's not a MOBA- 1 click+ 4 buttons gameplay. HAVE FUN!!! this is all that matters!!
Dude, come on, don´t be this toxic and aggressive. We are having a really nice conversation here, ALL of us love the game, that is why we are even here, discussing it, because we care for the game and want it to do well!
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
Yeah, it's true. It gonna be a game for elite players. I am gold player too, and I had some bad times to deal with LOTV at the beginning. I think you need to have a "big APM" to be efficient, and to focus on details to avoid to die on an early timing push or harass. All those things are natural for good players but not for the beginner, and I think they will stop to play LOTV way before to become a good one.
big APM...do you think that haveing 200 APM makes u enjoy the game more, or that you're better and not die to early cheese?. APM is not important for beginners.What important is to spend those minerals.Just spend it first, after that you'll learn how to spend it wisely, then you'll find out you can expand , and then spend some more, then you die to some fucking cheese,...what do you do then?.....Repeat the process but you'll try to anticipate any cheese and you scout and so , step bu step, you're LEARNING the game and the FUN factor comes into place.Then you can't stop playing ! This is Starcraft! This is the feeling that most of us have when we are playing starcraft! FUN!!! and of course COMPETITION on ladder is the cherry on top. GL HF!! Beginners should just have fun first with the campaign.It will teach you the basics and more.If you're a beginner you cannot hit the ladder instantly as you will get crushed.Losing 5-6 games in a row and absolutely get stomped is not FUN. It's a real time strategy game and it takes time to learn how to play it.It's not a MOBA- 1 click+ 4 buttons gameplay. HAVE FUN!!! this is all that matters!!
I can't let you to tell finish the campaign is a way to become a good player. The campaign is SO DIFFERENT from the ladder. Sometimes when I win a game I watch how my opponent deals with WoL and HOTS campaigns, and often I see "finished in brutal mode for both" while the guy showed a poor multitasking or lack of macro skill. Finish campaign means nothing, and above all, you are a good player. I agree with you with the fact to become a good player and have fun with SC2, you need practice hard, and increase your knowledge of the game but it is a very hard process. That's why many people stop to play SC2, it is hard to master, you need to play so much time on it to start to have fun with. Have high APM count make the things easier (if your opponent has a lower APM than you of course)
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
That was always and will always be the case with starcraft, though. The decision making happens largely in your replay analysis, and in the game you just apply your knowledge and judge based on your experience.
Starcraft was never a game where you could sit back and think "Hmmm, what am I going to do next?". Players that do that are usually very low level and stop doing this once they've gathered more experience. And then it's all natural.
This does not mean it's not a strategic game. In fact it makes it makes good strategies all the more important since the best ones are those who are either so powerful that they don't have to adapt, or so flexible that they're able to adapt to nearly every possible reaction from the opponent.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
You're so full of shit.Farewell then.One less whiner is always good.Dude, how can you say that LotV it's a complete stress.If this is the case you have issues.You must be playing only to win.I bet you're a rage quitter. Back to LoL with you. Too bad you didn't actually learn how to really enjoy the game and have FUN! Congratz to the one guy/girl who came up with the idea for "Uninstall" button.
User was warned for this post
no ban for this faggot? im asking myself who is full of shit. i guess its the fucking retard x0x0. get a life stupid son of a bitch.
On October 30 2015 18:39 FromtheAbysS wrote: I can't let you to tell finish the campaign is a way to become a good player. The campaign is SO DIFFERENT from the ladder. Sometimes when I win a game I watch how my opponent deals with WoL and HOTS campaigns, and often I see "finished in brutal mode for both" while the guy showed a poor multitasking or lack of macro skill. Finish campaign means nothing, and above all, you are a good player. I agree with you with the fact to become a good player and have fun with SC2, you need practice hard, and increase your knowledge of the game but it is a very hard process. That's why many people stop to play SC2, it is hard to master, you need to play so much time on it to start to have fun with. Have high APM count make the things easier (if your opponent has a lower APM than you of course)
A completely new player needs to learn/develop cheesy 1 base builds for each matchup and to learn specific builds to take advantage of map terrain. Back in the BW days I spent years doing all sorts of dt rushes/drops, abusing any cliffs with tank/lurker drops and doing silly 1 base muta rushes. It was fun winning and it was fun losing. The problem with lower league players is that they try to play the exact same macro style like the pro players, which requires really good defensive micro against more aggressive builds which can end the game really early and be really frustrating because somehow the community associates long macro games as "good" and short cheesy/scrappy games as "evil."
On October 29 2015 05:29 Blargh wrote: My biggest concern is actually just that there is not enough strategic depth in the game.
Based on what?
Actually, I agree with Blargh completely. Game is just so much faster, more energetic. All my planning goes into next few seconds, because in those seconds so much happens, that all my plans would be shattered anyway. When I can easily just win based on my opponent reacting one second to late, I´m not even happy with the win. I think that people who play a lot, especially if they are good, will eventually be able to read different situations and base their strategies of off that, but for casual people who can only play a few games a week, it would always be just messy and stressful experience.
That was always and will always be the case with starcraft, though. The decision making happens largely in your replay analysis, and in the game you just apply your knowledge and judge based on your experience.
Starcraft was never a game where you could sit back and think "Hmmm, what am I going to do next?". Players that do that are usually very low level and stop doing this once they've gathered more experience. And then it's all natural.
This does not mean it's not a strategic game. In fact it makes it makes good strategies all the more important since the best ones are those who are either so powerful that they don't have to adapt, or so flexible that they're able to adapt to nearly every possible reaction from the opponent.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
You're so full of shit.Farewell then.One less whiner is always good.Dude, how can you say that LotV it's a complete stress.If this is the case you have issues.You must be playing only to win.I bet you're a rage quitter. Back to LoL with you. Too bad you didn't actually learn how to really enjoy the game and have FUN! Congratz to the one guy/girl who came up with the idea for "Uninstall" button.
User was warned for this post
no ban for this faggot? im asking myself who is full of shit. i guess its the fucking retard x0x0. get a life stupid son of a bitch.
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
get'em off the ice ref! two , five and a game!
why can't u just keep playing WoL?
i play in a super casual clan and we have players who find games in Bronze, Silver and Gold in WoL very fast and their opponents are near their skill level. most of them own HotS and would rather play the WoL ladder because its easier and less serious.
i hope Blizzard continues to change LotV so that it is even more different from HotS and WoL than it is now. this gives consumers distinctly different RTS games to choose from.
Just play whatever version of SC2 you have the most fun with.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
Yeah, it's true. It gonna be a game for elite players. I am gold player too, and I had some bad times to deal with LOTV at the beginning. I think you need to have a "big APM" to be efficient, and to focus on details to avoid to die on an early timing push or harass. All those things are natural for good players but not for the beginner, and I think they will stop to play LOTV way before to become a good one.
Do you think that Archon Mode is a good solution to this problem, or would you say the problem should be solved at the core?
Perfect solution is. Find friends at your level on the ladder, go to custom mode, change gamespeed down from fastest XD.
sorry but thats complete bullshhhhhh. making the game that fast, lotv is, it isnt accessible or fun for beginners or low level players at all. feeling constantly stressed by the mass of tasks makes the unappealing or even unplayable for them. blizzard should have made this game more accessible for beginners but they made more appealing to best of the best. and strategy wise all i see is one harass strat which leads into another harass strat, which may ends the game. its about who can kill more works of his opponent...
as a gold player i enjoyed wol and hots but lotv, holy f, there is nothing i can enjoy. its complete stress, from the first second. i feel like blizzard is telling us causuals, noobs are not welcome. but hey thats ok, i find another game to enjoy.
Yeah, it's true. It gonna be a game for elite players. I am gold player too, and I had some bad times to deal with LOTV at the beginning. I think you need to have a "big APM" to be efficient, and to focus on details to avoid to die on an early timing push or harass. All those things are natural for good players but not for the beginner, and I think they will stop to play LOTV way before to become a good one.
Do you think that Archon Mode is a good solution to this problem, or would you say the problem should be solved at the core?
Absolutely not. Archon Mode is much faster, and--in many ways--more stressful than traditional 1v1. Archon Mode is non-stop from the very first unit built.
Casual SC2 is the campaign, in my opinion. Which is fine.
The apm requirement is pretty exaggerated, it's more multitasking and understanding what you should be doing at some given time. I'm diamond on the beta / hots and I rarely break 60 apm. You don't need hundreds of apm to queue a drop, position your army and do a macro cycle once in a while. It's more so new players are often not doing anything actively after an action because they have to pause and think or react due to a lack of knowledge and experience. Spending that pause mindlessly spam selecting your control groups isn't going to do you any good.
Been playing a lot these few days, still think the early worker increase is an awesome idea
starting with 12 workers, having super fast creep spread and having standard zerg play hatch-pool-hatch-gas against gateway openings feels like being stuck in 1.5x speed
On November 02 2015 01:51 Caihead wrote: The apm requirement is pretty exaggerated, it's more multitasking and understanding what you should be doing at some given time. I'm diamond on the beta / hots and I rarely break 60 apm. You don't need hundreds of apm to queue a drop, position your army and do a macro cycle once in a while. It's more so new players are often not doing anything actively after an action because they have to pause and think or react due to a lack of knowledge and experience. Spending that pause mindlessly spam selecting your control groups isn't going to do you any good.
You played Terran, in the LotV beta, in diamond, with an APM of 60? That sounds ... unlikely. Early-game APM spam is mostly just warming up, getting in a rhythm, and pacing yourself for the more hectic parts of the match, no? I don't really care about the APM number, really, when evaluating my own play. As long as I can do what I need to do.
EPT
(if your opponent has a lower APM than you of course) 
