Brood war did not have the same problem with carriers, because it had a tier 3 option to beat them. I remember for example the boxer nal_ra epic game where carriers were beaten in the late game.
I often hear people say the best way to deal with carriers is to not let the protoss get to them. I personally am not a huge fan of this philosophy. You have a timer to end a game or else you lose it. You could nerf the carriers, but I do like the idea of having carriers as a method to end games particularly against turrets and spores. For me, I prefer having a spectres with lockdown augmenting late tier terran tech to deal with end game units. The ghost academy tech tree didn't get the same love as the other tech trees in LOTV and I don't believe it would be a big difficult option to add to the game given carrier play isn't overused at the moment, so there would be a lot of time to balance them later after release.
Now when you play ladder, often the protoss pushes to mass carriers. The recent buff was made to mech to deal with carriers in increasing the damage to armored in cyclones, but if you go bio, its as if you just have to do enough damage to not lose the game because if they turtle far enough the only real option that there appears to be is to basetrade and abuse mules. The question then returns, which is a preferred solution, lockdown on spectres or ghosts with nukes and widow mines, or is it preferred to force basetrades to deal with them.
I personally prefer having lockdown. I think it has much utility and would be very useful. I would like to have it on a different unit than ghosts so it's a little easier to see and respond to it, but maybe nobody is worried about this.
---------------- Lockdown stats in brood war. 200 minerals/200 gas/100 seconds to research 100 energy from ghost to launch missile. 8 range units under lockdown can recall and lockdown dispels irradiate, plague, defensive matrix, and maelstrom. ---------------- I don't believe I'm the only terran advocate for this change. So I want to poll the community about the matter.
Poll: Would you be against the return of lockdown in the game?
No, Lockdown should be in legacy of the void. (29)
71%
Yes, I'm against Lockdown returning to legacy of the void. (12)
29%
41 total votes
Your vote: Would you be against the return of lockdown in the game?
(Vote): No, Lockdown should be in legacy of the void. (Vote): Yes, I'm against Lockdown returning to legacy of the void.
---------------
Poll: What is the preferred method of dealing with carriers?
Lockdown, it brings strength back to the ghost academy tech. (22)
76%
Cyclones, Tech switching to cyclones and hoping to maneuver around the carriers and pick them off (6)
21%
Other way, please post in the comments below (1)
3%
Harassment and preventing the protoss from getting them in the first place. (0)
0%
Base Trading, Hope to out dps/out mobility the carriers (0)
0%
Widow Mines, Have widow mines increase damage to the main target. (0)
0%
29 total votes
Your vote: What is the preferred method of dealing with carriers?
(Vote): Lockdown, it brings strength back to the ghost academy tech. (Vote): Harassment and preventing the protoss from getting them in the first place. (Vote): Base Trading, Hope to out dps/out mobility the carriers (Vote): Cyclones, Tech switching to cyclones and hoping to maneuver around the carriers and pick them off (Vote): Widow Mines, Have widow mines increase damage to the main target. (Vote): Other way, please post in the comments below
--------------
Poll: Would you favor another unit that depends on the ghost academy tech?
Yes, More units from the tech would allow for more options and increase its use in the game. (22)
69%
No, Ghosts and nukes are enough to go down that tech (10)
31%
32 total votes
Your vote: Would you favor another unit that depends on the ghost academy tech?
(Vote): No, Ghosts and nukes are enough to go down that tech (Vote): Yes, More units from the tech would allow for more options and increase its use in the game.
The recent buff was made to mech to deal with carriers in increasing the damage to armored in cyclones, but if you go bio, its as if you just have to do enough damage to not lose the game because if they turtle far enough the only real option that there appears to be is to basetrade and abuse mules.
So Bio should be able to counter even Carriers? If so, I would like to be able to counter every imaginable Terran and Zerg composition with nothing but gateway units. Maybe Dark Archons should be added to the game and while we are at it Khaydarin Amulet would also be nice.
See what I did there? Maybe it's best to use what you've got, instead of always wanting new toys and easier ways of beating the other side.
Ghosts were not the counter to Carriers in pro games. Very, very, very few pro games ever turned out that way. Some pros tried Barracks style counters to Carriers: Ghosts with Lockdown, Medics to Flare Observers then bring in Cloaked Wraiths, but those were really a one-shot opportunity. Both are extremely micro-intensive (you have to clone from pretty far away and telegraph your arrival with a scan) and cost a lot of gas and time on units that are otherwise useless to you. By far, the preferred counters to Carriers were either a hidden stockpile of Wraiths or building up Goliaths. Trust me, as a Boxer fanboy I tried incorporating Ghosts into many of my games especially as Carrier counters, and it failed much more often than it succeeded (but I did get a pretty sweet 14-unit Finger of God lockdown into a nuke that made the other guy quit the game). The premise for the argument here is fairly weak and destabilizes the footing of a lot of the rest of the post in my opinion.
The problem with air in sc2 is that the only way to really beat it is to go air yourself. So you are at a disadvantage because they have already started getting air upgrades. Terran is the most well rounded with Cyclones and Thors possessing the range to deal with air. Zerg and protoss do not have that. There is a serious lack of ground based air options. Unfortunately, unless they plan on doing multiplayer beta's every couple years to shake up the game, it is too late to address this in anyway except tacking on an ability here of doing a number buff there.
With cyclones being AA, It needs to be tested if they can deal with carriers. The problem for mech are tempests though: They kite mech so well and deal solid damage, and there is no way to catch up to them. I would recommend lockdown only because tempests are the problem.
On September 19 2015 13:27 hitpoint wrote: How does this help against vipers? Thread title says carriers and vipers.
Lockdown dispels effects. So you could stop parasitic bomb. This was an oversight by me; Sometimes I forget that not everyone played a lot of brood war.
On September 19 2015 13:27 hitpoint wrote: How does this help against vipers? Thread title says carriers and vipers.
Lockdown dispels effects. So you could stop parasitic bomb. This was an oversight by me; Sometimes I forget that not everyone played a lot of brood war.
I don't know that Ghosts could lockdown very many Zerg units in BW.
On September 19 2015 13:27 hitpoint wrote: How does this help against vipers? Thread title says carriers and vipers.
Lockdown dispels effects. So you could stop parasitic bomb. This was an oversight by me; Sometimes I forget that not everyone played a lot of brood war.
I don't know that Ghosts could lockdown very many Zerg units in BW.
You lock down the terran units that were irradiated.
Never seen in BW to use ghost lockdown dispel abillity to clear of any spell. And against zerg ghosts were only usefull to one base nuke rush with mm or to 2 nukes drop into zerg's main, to clear hive and all tech buildings.
On September 19 2015 15:54 radley wrote: Never seen in BW to use ghost lockdown dispel abillity to clear of any spell. And against zerg ghosts were only usefull to one base nuke rush with mm or to 2 nukes drop into zerg's main, to clear hive and all tech buildings.
It's probably too late for a new unit in LotV, but I would be excited if Blizzard could at least include a Spectre alternative skin for Ghosts. Have them work like DTs. Pleaseeee
Not a good idea in my opinion. This is one more super hard counter unit. What would you use this for? BC's, Carriers, Tempest, maybe Oracles or Thors. It is a targeted homing one-hit-*kill* ability that takes out a single high price enemy unit. Not a good plan.
Your vote: Would you be against the return of lockdown in the game?
(Vote): No, Lockdown should be in legacy of the void. (Vote): Yes, I'm against Lockdown returning to legacy of the void.
Holy fuck, what is up with people who make polls in TL? It's as if they have no idea what clear simple English is, with poll answers that correspond wholly with the question asked. Everything is doublespeak.
Citing ghosts as a regular counter to carriers shows how little you know of BW.
Getting a lot of carriers up in BW was pretty much an instant win in most scenarios (PvT), unless the opponent scouted it out in time and prepared (you need large amounts of goliaths and to negate any positional advantage the carriers might have in a battle).
I would NOT want lockdown back in LotV due to autocast being in the game. It would be incredibly easy to completely negate carriers this way.
lockdown, maelstrom, stasis field, disruption web, and even dark swarm with actual miss chance... all of these belong in the game and would have a purpose. irradiate, scourge, and the AA AoE units, the corsair, devourer, and valkyrie. most of the missing pieces are there. goliath and shield battery are also essential, along with solid protoss ground to air for the mass mutas.
they have a lot of work ahead of them and i doubt that all or even any of the above can get in. i'm only praying for miss chance now. starbow is looking better with each update...
some time ago i had the idea that the spectre should be included to use lockdown and maybe even irradiate... i realized this idea was rather futile because it was such a great idea. it's so simple of an idea and it hasn't been touched by blizzard. we can't be the first ones to have this idea, and what scares me is that i'm sure blizzard had this idea, and many other great ones like it, and we won't get to see any of them go into official multiplayer testing.
more than 2 units per race might help, and almost all of the models are there already. the more i think about this the more disappointed i become. sorry for being a downer, and i like the idea and all, but things like this make me feel more distant from starcraft sometimes.
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/9/90/Spectre.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wKpvONt.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/archive/f/f8/20141004021954%21Lockdown.gif)
Lockdown stats in brood war. 
