On August 22 2015 23:28 bo1b wrote: Really, inject doesn't affect the rest of the zerg gameplay? Pretty sure if somethings difficult enough it impacts other facets of the game. Try microing properly while injecting like 5 bases, it's not possible.
On another note, I think you're reaching pretty hard by saying building units is a decision that needs to be taken. 99.9% of the time the unit choice is decided before the game gets going, copied from people better then them. Marine, Marauder, Widowmine was developed by flash/innovation and pretty much everyone followed there flowchart of playing the game. At the 15 minute mark the decisions of what units were coming out of the barracks were fairly linear.
And yeh, I can find so many games of dota with a safelane 2/3 v 1 farming for the first 10 minutes. There is literally no decision making for the am, he just hits everything he possibly can. Funnily enough one of the things dota players always detract from league is the lack of denying creeps. Theres another no brainer, if you can get a deny is there any situation you would ever not want to?
If you want to be a copycat you choose that yourself, that's not the game telling you "go make marine/marauder". And if there is no other way of playing the game people do fucking whine about it, because there is no choice. Maybe heard the term "stale meta" before?
Inject doesn't offer choices from a stance of ingame mechanics. It's completely non-sensical to argue that a specific ingame mechanic interacts via player skill with the rest. That's true for everything I can come up with. But I don't believe you would defend everything I can come up with.
Last hitting is a mechanical battle. It is interactive, so I don't mind it being mainly mechanical as it is a mechanical battle with someone else. And the mechanic behind it is attacking, which does offer you quite a range of choices. You have various attack targets, sometimes you have to choose between denying a kill or making one. Sometimes you have to choose which one you will try for while your opponent might try the same one. Sometimes you may not want to last hit because your opponent could hurt you. Sometimes you may even want to hit your opponent. Yes, there are games where everyone is only last hitting (I guess, I don't follow DotA, only play it from time to time). But that's an interactive decision created through strategical interaction. Not because "you chose zerg, injecting is best" (blizzard even made a tooltip that said "always inject").
On August 22 2015 23:45 bo1b wrote: Broodwar has more attention taxes then just about any game ever made. Doom is not a multiplayer classic at all. And when sc2 is dead and burried in like 2-3 years, broodwar will still be being played, shitty macro mechanics and all.
Doom is still played multiplayer today.
Doom not a classic - Bob is talking out of his ass and will continue talking whilst you feed him.
On August 22 2015 23:45 bo1b wrote: Broodwar has more attention taxes then just about any game ever made. Doom is not a multiplayer classic at all. And when sc2 is dead and burried in like 2-3 years, broodwar will still be being played, shitty macro mechanics and all.
Doom is still played multiplayer today.
Doom not a classic - Bob is talking out of his ass and will continue talking whilst you feed him.
Doom's a classic not because of amazing gameplay, is that better? Please don't say it is because comparing doom to quake is horrendous. The only reason it's a classic is it's arguably the first real multiplayer fps. People don't line up on twitch to watch doom, they will argue that it's gameplay is genre defining (it isn't, Wolfenstein deserves that title).
On August 22 2015 23:45 bo1b wrote: Broodwar has more attention taxes then just about any game ever made. Doom is not a multiplayer classic at all. And when sc2 is dead and burried in like 2-3 years, broodwar will still be being played, shitty macro mechanics and all.
Doom is still played multiplayer today.
Doom not a classic - Bob is talking out of his ass and will continue talking whilst you feed him.
Doom's a classic not because of amazing gameplay, is that better? Please don't say it is because comparing doom to quake is horrendous. The only reason it's a classic is it's arguably the first real multiplayer fps. People don't line up on twitch to watch doom, they will argue that it's gameplay is genre defining (it isn't, Wolfenstein deserves that title).
On August 22 2015 23:45 bo1b wrote: Broodwar has more attention taxes then just about any game ever made. Doom is not a multiplayer classic at all. And when sc2 is dead and burried in like 2-3 years, broodwar will still be being played, shitty macro mechanics and all.
BW hasn't been played in any other country besides South Korea for over 10 years. There can be various cultural reasons for why BW is played in Korea today. From what I gathered, the majority of South Koreans also never played alot of 1v1 in BW, instead it was mostly custom games.
Point is that there is little reason to expect that mechanics for the sake of mechanics (that doesn't interact with the opponent) can work today and in the near future. All other succesful games are removing unncesary complications in the design proces.
i absolutely love the new patch and the removal of macro mechanics
game pacing feels awesome, reminds me more of BW than any other game since
that being said, i still think zerg could use a new micro toy to spend those freed up apms on. right now the only unit that leads to really cool engagements is the ravager
On August 22 2015 23:28 bo1b wrote: Really, inject doesn't affect the rest of the zerg gameplay? Pretty sure if somethings difficult enough it impacts other facets of the game. Try microing properly while injecting like 5 bases, it's not possible.
On another note, I think you're reaching pretty hard by saying building units is a decision that needs to be taken. 99.9% of the time the unit choice is decided before the game gets going, copied from people better then them. Marine, Marauder, Widowmine was developed by flash/innovation and pretty much everyone followed there flowchart of playing the game. At the 15 minute mark the decisions of what units were coming out of the barracks were fairly linear.
And yeh, I can find so many games of dota with a safelane 2/3 v 1 farming for the first 10 minutes. There is literally no decision making for the am, he just hits everything he possibly can. Funnily enough one of the things dota players always detract from league is the lack of denying creeps. Theres another no brainer, if you can get a deny is there any situation you would ever not want to?
If you want to be a copycat you choose that yourself, that's not the game telling you "go make marine/marauder". And if there is no other way of playing the game people do fucking whine about it, because there is no choice. Maybe heard the term "stale meta" before?
Inject doesn't offer choices from a stance of ingame mechanics. It's completely non-sensical to argue that a specific ingame mechanic interacts via player skill with the rest. That's true for everything I can come up with. But I don't believe you would defend everything I can come up with.
Last hitting is a mechanical battle. It is interactive, so I don't mind it being mainly mechanical as it is a mechanical battle with someone else. And the mechanic behind it is attacking, which does offer you quite a range of choices. You have various attack targets, sometimes you have to choose between denying a kill or making one. Sometimes you have to choose which one you will try for while your opponent might try the same one. Sometimes you may not want to last hit because your opponent could hurt you. Sometimes you may even want to hit your opponent. Yes, there are games where everyone is only last hitting (I guess, I don't follow DotA, only play it from time to time). But that's an interactive decision created through strategical interaction. Not because "you chose zerg, injecting is best" (blizzard even made a tooltip that said "always inject").
Except that by and large unit compositions have historically been the same throughout each expansion, with a few exceptions. The changing meta has more to do with getting to that point/winning before it then it does with new revolutionary unit compositions. Marine/marauder/medivac has been the bio composition with minute changes for 5 years now. The decision making in sc2 in regards to what to build/produce happens a lot earlier in the game then when everythings established. I've never seen someone argue for automated unit production once the midgame hits so that people can focus more on interacting with there opponents.
What you are saying is largely overstating the complexity of last hitting. I would posit that the complexity of last hitting has almost nothing to do with targeting the unit at the right time but more with exerting pressure on the lane, and knowing in general what you can and cannot get away with. A good tri-lane in dota/hon will almost always be the one to secure complete lane dominance, and in the situation with one tri-lane vs another there is almost always a dominant one depending on what heroes are picked.
Really, what I'm saying is that by allowing people to achieve overwhelming skill with macro or micro different playstyles can exist. If this patch goes through and everyone above diamond can macro like drg I think the game will have lost something.
game pacing feels awesome, reminds me more of BW than any other game since
People need to stop spreading this myth. The current pacing of the game has very little to do with the BW pacing as BW income rate was much much higher in the late game and there was much less army trading going on in BW early game and midgame than in LOTV atm.
The pacing is very very far off from what it was in BW.
The decision making in sc2 in regards to what to build/produce happens a lot earlier in the game then when everythings established.
The point is that you adjust your composition mix in relation to what the opponent is building. So if he has more Ultras than Mutalisks, you get more Maurauders in relation to Marines. That's interactive!
On August 22 2015 23:45 bo1b wrote: Broodwar has more attention taxes then just about any game ever made. Doom is not a multiplayer classic at all. And when sc2 is dead and burried in like 2-3 years, broodwar will still be being played, shitty macro mechanics and all.
BW hasn't been played in any other country besides South Korea for over 10 years. There can be various cultural reasons for why BW is played in Korea today. From what I gathered, the majority of South Koreans also never played alot of 1v1 in BW, instead it was mostly custom games.
Point is that there is little reason to expect that mechanics for the sake of mechanics (that doesn't interact with the opponent) can work today and in the near future. All other succesful games are removing unncesary complications in the design proces.
Starcraft 2 and starcraft broodwar, smash melee and smash 4, cs go and cs source are the only games I can think of which feature one sequel making dramatic changes to the mechanical skill in each. Sc2 is on life support from blizzards wallet, smash 4 I seriously, seriously doubt will last as long a melee, and cs go which reintroduced mechanics from cs 1.6 has had an enormous recovery after they did so.
And obviously not every korean played 1v1, but enough had to to get as good as they did, and plenty of people played brood war in america/europe. A majority of sc2 pro's came from a brood war background even.
game pacing feels awesome, reminds me more of BW than any other game since
People need to stop spreading this myth. The current pacing of the game has very little to do with the BW pacing as BW income rate was much much higher in the late game and there was much less army trading going on in BW early game and midgame than in LOTV atm.
The pacing is very very far off from what it was in BW.
While I haven't played all that much of lotv's most recent patch there was a ton of action happening early and mid game in broodwar.
On August 22 2015 23:45 bo1b wrote: Broodwar has more attention taxes then just about any game ever made. Doom is not a multiplayer classic at all. And when sc2 is dead and burried in like 2-3 years, broodwar will still be being played, shitty macro mechanics and all.
Doom is still played multiplayer today.
Doom not a classic - Bob is talking out of his ass and will continue talking whilst you feed him.
Doom's a classic not because of amazing gameplay, is that better? Please don't say it is because comparing doom to quake is horrendous. The only reason it's a classic is it's arguably the first real multiplayer fps. People don't line up on twitch to watch doom, they will argue that it's gameplay is genre defining (it isn't, Wolfenstein deserves that title).
Stop sitting on the keyboard!
Still waiting on you to elaborate on your mentioning of Brood war as the game that has no "attention taxes"?
- Isn't having to send every worker to mine separately from its construction an attention tax?
- Isn't not being able to select more than a single building an attention tax?
- Isn't not being able to select more than 12 units an attention tax?
Just playing the devil's advocate here since I'm happy to see these awful faux-macro mechanics go (Mules, chronoboost or even injects aren't real macro). However, I do not agree that the reason they're bad is because they are attention taxes.
On August 22 2015 23:45 bo1b wrote: Broodwar has more attention taxes then just about any game ever made. Doom is not a multiplayer classic at all. And when sc2 is dead and burried in like 2-3 years, broodwar will still be being played, shitty macro mechanics and all.
Doom is still played multiplayer today.
Doom not a classic - Bob is talking out of his ass and will continue talking whilst you feed him.
Doom's a classic not because of amazing gameplay, is that better? Please don't say it is because comparing doom to quake is horrendous. The only reason it's a classic is it's arguably the first real multiplayer fps. People don't line up on twitch to watch doom, they will argue that it's gameplay is genre defining (it isn't, Wolfenstein deserves that title).
Stop sitting on the keyboard!
Still waiting on you to elaborate on your mentioning of Brood war as the game that has no "attention taxes"?
- Isn't having to send every worker to mine separately from its construction an attention tax?
- Isn't not being able to select more than a single building an attention tax?
- Isn't not being able to select more than 12 units an attention tax?
Just playing the devil's advocate here since I'm happy to see these awful faux-macro mechanics go (Mules, chronoboost or even injects aren't real macro). However, I do not agree that the reason they're bad is because they are attention taxes.
On August 22 2015 23:45 bo1b wrote: Broodwar has more attention taxes then just about any game ever made. Doom is not a multiplayer classic at all. And when sc2 is dead and burried in like 2-3 years, broodwar will still be being played, shitty macro mechanics and all.
Doom is still played multiplayer today.
Doom not a classic - Bob is talking out of his ass and will continue talking whilst you feed him.
Doom's a classic not because of amazing gameplay, is that better? Please don't say it is because comparing doom to quake is horrendous. The only reason it's a classic is it's arguably the first real multiplayer fps. People don't line up on twitch to watch doom, they will argue that it's gameplay is genre defining (it isn't, Wolfenstein deserves that title).
Stop sitting on the keyboard!
Still waiting on you to elaborate on your mentioning of Brood war as the game that has no "attention taxes"?
- Isn't having to send every worker to mine separately from its construction an attention tax?
- Isn't not being able to select more than a single building an attention tax?
- Isn't not being able to select more than 12 units an attention tax?
Just playing the devil's advocate here since I'm happy to see these awful faux-macro mechanics go (Mules, chronoboost or even injects aren't real macro). However, I do not agree that the reason they're bad is because they are attention taxes.
Pretty much, I think they're horrible as well but I also think something needs to be there. I'd rather have inject then nothing, I'll put it that way.
On August 22 2015 23:45 bo1b wrote: Broodwar has more attention taxes then just about any game ever made. Doom is not a multiplayer classic at all. And when sc2 is dead and burried in like 2-3 years, broodwar will still be being played, shitty macro mechanics and all.
Doom is still played multiplayer today.
Doom not a classic - Bob is talking out of his ass and will continue talking whilst you feed him.
Doom's a classic not because of amazing gameplay, is that better? Please don't say it is because comparing doom to quake is horrendous. The only reason it's a classic is it's arguably the first real multiplayer fps. People don't line up on twitch to watch doom, they will argue that it's gameplay is genre defining (it isn't, Wolfenstein deserves that title).
Stop sitting on the keyboard!
Still waiting on you to elaborate on your mentioning of Brood war as the game that has no "attention taxes"?
- Isn't having to send every worker to mine separately from its construction an attention tax?
- Isn't not being able to select more than a single building an attention tax?
- Isn't not being able to select more than 12 units an attention tax?
Just playing the devil's advocate here since I'm happy to see these awful faux-macro mechanics go (Mules, chronoboost or even injects aren't real macro). However, I do not agree that the reason they're bad is because they are attention taxes.
I really don't care.
Oh everyone knew that a while ago. Out of interest, what compels someone who has likely never played the game a decent amount to post in favour of removing something relevant to the series (attention taxes in this case)
ive been watching maximusblack 7 gate warp prism off of 2 base with stalkers and zealots for 2 days now..
that 9 range pickup is a 200g blink timing. i feel like it should be an upgrade from the robo bay so that it can't be combined with charge or adept shield timings.
in fact, i feel like the 2s warp in should be an upgrade too bc it hits hard and fast and terran don't have the minerals, zerg doesnt have the larva to produce a meaningful reaction if they are on the map.
The main issue with the macro mechanics in SC2 is that they're kinda in an unhappy medium. Tough enough to be necessary and take effort, but not tough enough that it feels skillful. For example, it's impressive when a BW player pumps goliaths out of 10+ factories, but I roll my eyes when commentators try to hype me up when a terran spams 10 mules on a mineral line.
Blizzard has three choices:
1. Make macro mechanics challenging so it's more impressive to watch.
2. Design macro so there's more player choice involved, because it's the bare minimum right now.
3. Design macro so that it encourages player interaction, similar to how Mobas have players fight over last hits.
On August 23 2015 00:31 BluemoonSC wrote: ive been watching maximusblack 7 gate warp prism off of 2 base with stalkers and zealots for 2 days now..
that 9 range pickup is a 200g blink timing. i feel like it should be an upgrade from the robo bay so that it can't be combined with charge or adept shield timings.
in fact, i feel like the 2s warp in should be an upgrade too bc it hits hard and fast and terran don't have the minerals, zerg doesnt have the larva to produce a meaningful reaction if they are on the map.
Another option is they can change the warp-in time on the warp prism back to what it was.
RE: range pickup, I kinda hope they drop it. Drop micro is strong without it. Allowing the warp prism to pickup from range just reduces counterplay.
the moba comparison a lot of people make is so painful for me. you cannot compare last hitting to anything other than constantly making workers the moment one pops because both produce money.
what im confused about is how allegedly korean players wanted this change but foreign players are the only ones speaking out about their displeasure. i wanna know why the disconnect exists
On August 23 2015 00:31 BluemoonSC wrote: ive been watching maximusblack 7 gate warp prism off of 2 base with stalkers and zealots for 2 days now..
that 9 range pickup is a 200g blink timing. i feel like it should be an upgrade from the robo bay so that it can't be combined with charge or adept shield timings.
in fact, i feel like the 2s warp in should be an upgrade too bc it hits hard and fast and terran don't have the minerals, zerg doesnt have the larva to produce a meaningful reaction if they are on the map.
Another option is they can change the warp-in time on the warp prism back to what it was.
RE: range pickup, I kinda hope they drop it. Drop micro is strong without it. Allowing the warp prism to pickup from range just reduces counterplay.
nah i like the 2s warp in for defensive purposes bc terran players could just stim and murder your warp ins before they made it out.
but yeah the range pickup is ridiculous. you can't even target the warp prism with a queen bc the range on pickup is larger than the queen range IIRC. you either have to snap it immediately when it enters your base or you['re gonna get fucked
On August 23 2015 00:44 BluemoonSC wrote: what im confused about is how allegedly korean players wanted this change but foreign players are the only ones speaking out about their displeasure. i wanna know why the disconnect exists
On August 23 2015 00:44 BluemoonSC wrote: nah i like the 2s warp in for defensive purposes bc terran players could just stim and murder your warp ins before they made it out.
On August 23 2015 00:37 Quineotio wrote: Another option is they can change the warp-in time on the warp prism back to what it was.
EPT
