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On July 21 2015 18:45 Plantarbre wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 12 2015 22:09 weikor wrote:
In addition to that, probes are the weakest to harass - considering certain units even do bonus damage to shields and they have 40 hp as opposed to 45 of other races.
Probes also cost 50 minerals - against terran and mules, a protoss is considered on even footing, only if he has a significant lead in probes. If both players get harrassed stronly, it will end up with the terran ahead - since the loss of workers can usually be absorbed by mules.
Also consider that 22 probes also cost 1.100 minerals - which is more than a 50% mineral patch of lotv.
Uh. No. Just no. 1) The drones have 40 hp. The 5 bonus hp for scvs barely changes anything. The bonus damages to shield isn't an issue. Indeed, if you didn't pay attention, whatever went in your mineral line, you're doomed. Mines or not mines. And I think that you shouldn't lose 3 probes every 40s when you let a medivac enter your mineral line without pulling the probes. You should take reasonable damages for this. 2) The MULE. PLEASE, stop arguing about how OP the mule is, just stop. The protoss is considered on even footing when is has more probes. WELL, that's the point of chronoboosting and the production time of the OC. The protoss is always ahead in probes. "If both players get harrassed stronly, it will end up with the terran ahead - since the loss of workers can usually be absorbed by mules." No. A : number of workers represented by mules : 3-4 Protoss worker count before harass : 50 Terran worker count before harass : 43 + 2A Both lose 20 workers. Protoss : 50 - 20 = 30 Terran : 43 + 2A - 20 = 23 + 2A I mean, that's basic maths here.. Mules DON'T absorb the loss of workers, it only works in late game when the terran reaches the protoss worker count, around 70 workers. However, the protoss will have faster upgrades and production thanks to the chronoboost. It is even. 3) Consider that 22 scvs and drones also cost the same that 22 probes. --------------------- @tokinho I appreciate your thinking here, it went way further than the basic stuff about how mules are OP (see above). However, there is one thing I didn't understand. In the "Game breaking changes in Legacy" part. You explain a good number of changes, and most of them are seen as negative. However, the fifth part "adept oracle openers" seem to be the only one that is not. It seems that these openers are very strong, as they counter the classical defense against oracle. What I don't understand is : How such builds could be dealt with as terran if the first adepts come earlier, the protoss don't have a mineral fallout, with a small boost on probes with the starting nexus, cheapers adepts, adepts stronger against their "counter", the colossus comeback, an already very strong storm boosted, a third source of AOE and... less effective drops ? I mean, I'm okay with these, but terrans won't be able to do anything. As I recall, the cyclone is going to be nerfed and will lose its ability to attack without vision. You need two mines deal with oracles (a protoss should be able to see there's no marines in the mineral line, so if you can't see the one mine in the mineral line, it's probably hidden behind the vespene thing. Just go on top of the CC and kill every scv, if the mine doesn't move, it's lost, and when it does, you just have to move where it isn't burrow to finish the job..) But if you rush mines, can you defend the early stuff ? If you go full marines, how can you deal with adept/oracles ? More important, if you rush mines and your opponent go for an early expansion, what do you do ? He will be able to defend whatsoever, and probably scouted your early gas. Can you defend it without commiting too much with turrets/ebay ? (you will probably lose some workers anyway, if you spent as many ressources in the defense as the protoss, you're losing) I'm afraid we can't really answer to these questions with such protoss buffs. EDIT: I forgot. If you go for marauders against adept with turrets against oracles. Say the protoss keeps producing oracles and adepts. How do you expand ? Mines would be pretty tough to use because of the adepts. Marines are obviously not the answer. Few adepts' shot will kill enough marines for oracles to kill the whole army. And turrets...Don't move. I hope I won't have to wait for fusion core + cylcone upgrade to expand.
From what I gather there are two main points to address. First is adept openers and second is the purpose of listing possibile changes to lotv.
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If you go full marines, how can you deal with adept/oracles ?
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I agree with this point. Marine openers its soo hard to deal with adept oracle. It seems like your point is that adept oracle gives such a strong advantage early on against terran and its viewed as a negative. I don't think its necessarily negative. I have spent quite a bit of time looking into this since i relayed the build earlier in a post about the adept oracle openers. It feels fun and fresh to have a non-allin tech with a harass heavy style.
The way that lotv feels for protoss, in contrast to HOTS, is that they are on a timer to get the third and have to keep harass up to do that. Many of the openers that were viable before I believe have become less viable.(I.e. builds which were even before can put them behind now.) I still think protoss can win games in lotv. The adept is one of the tools to do that. The reality is the thing that i noticed was once the adept numbers were going past 4-5 protoss lost nearly every one of those games. what happened was roach hydra or standard mmm were difficult to deal with because the adepts shoot the closest units, which terran micro the marauders forward, and zerg naturally has the roaches in front of the adepts.
This led to my interest in testing adepts in the unit tester. In a sense, the moment the battle starts the adepts have to be positioned differently, then moved around the disruptor attack to be effective. (For a reference about how i see the micro happening see my adept video.) In the end, even with some adept micro tricks, when testing large army fights with comparable army value using the LOTV unit tester, even with the shield upgrade and descent micro comparable compositions to the lotus matches showed similar results. It seems that when the shield upgrade comes and the fights start to happen, the adepts are too easily countered by standard compositions from the other two races. Even adding enough adepts to make the army values comparable. I am working on a video showing this.I'll try to get the video out soon so that you can see my tests in the unit tester. I think though that blizzard has expressed interest in changing the Force Fields, Warp Gates, and Gateway unit strength which leans more towards what i think would help the game.
In regards to the second part, about the purpose some common changes which were mentioned by protoss players.
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What I don't understand is : How such builds could be dealt with as terran if the first adepts come earlier, the protoss don't have a mineral fallout, with a small boost on probes with the starting nexus, cheapers adepts, adepts stronger against their "counter", the colossus comeback, an already very strong storm boosted, a third source of AOE and... less effective drops ?
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I agree that adding adepts to the protoss in hots would be game breaking. The majority of the problem comes from the timing tables which are hidden in the spoiler at the end of the post. Since units transfer sooner for the other races for taking their third, their timings relative to hots do not change much, but they do for protoss. I don't think its so severe protoss cannot take wins, but if they fall behind at all I don't feel like there is much of a chance of a recovery unlike the other races. The point of the post is to offer small changes to be testable internally which deviate from the protoss style in hots with many times being a light poke into a midgame timing which usually decides the game. The purpose of the points listed there was to compare and contrast i think the reasoning for the changes maybe not being ideal. (I.e. I don't particularly want to see storm buffed, the return of the heavy dependence on the colossus. I would like more of an interest way of stabilizing the game.) If there was something else you want to comment on please let me know.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 22 2015 00:19 Insidioussc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2015 23:42 deacon.frost wrote:On July 21 2015 21:29 Insidioussc2 wrote:
Finnaly some discussion about the MSC and Mothership. I think they are some very iconic units, but fit in gameplywise poorly, especially in LotV. So to begin my thoughts, i'd like a replace of Photon Overcharge (for both) with Energy boost:
- Ability that quadruples the Energy regeneration of an allied unit for 30 seconds (hots time). It would cost 25 Energy and gives around 50 over that time. Note: can't be casted on the mothership or msc itself.
This ability could be used on a nexus for more chrono boosts, sentries to defend or to increase potential of an oracle. I think it fits Protoss fine and there must be better ways to strengthen toss' defenses than Nexus Cannon.
To build on that, I would also like the Mothership to change its role drasticly. My proposals:
- Costs less (the morph maybe 150/150)
- Requires only Stargate
- Lowered stats (keeps MSC attack and lower Hitpoints to about 200/200)
- Smaller Model
- No more cloaking field (most deathball promoting passive there is)
Now let's talk about the abilities. It keeps timewarp and Energy boost from the MSC, it would feel inconsistant if you lose abilities. Replaces Mass Recall with Teleport Beacon:
- For 75 Energy you can create a 100 hp, 100 shield structure on a pylon field. Lasts 3 minutes.
This Teleport Beacon may cast Recall once, teleporting a group of units from any point on the map to the Beacon. It dies after the cast.
Because it must be cast on a pylon field it is harder to abuse than the old WoL Recall, but also it overcomes limitations of the MSC Mass Recall. There can be multiple Teleport Beacons on the map, which allows you to not only teleport one big army once. Also you can leave the Mothership behind to boost your macro.
Another ability I thought about to fit a different, more macro orientated role of the Mothership is a speed built Nexus. For a higher cost the Mothership creates (or "warps in") a Nexus in a few seconds, much like the Tiny Great Hall for Orcs in Frozen Throne. It seems like a bandaid to the hard impact of Mineral Fallout in LotV, but on the other hand it fits perfectly the role of a mothership lore-wise, right? Creating new homes, colonizing and stuff. Together with Teleport Beacon it allows Protoss to expand faster and more secure. What is so wrong about cloaking field? Arbiter was a fun unit and I would really appreciate its return and getting rid of stupid mothership hero unit. Mothership is just a hero version of arbiter(with a huge model) anyway. Edit: I mean, the reason why you go deathball with mothership(core) is because it is only one and you must have it with you otherwise the recall is not working. Back in WoL where recall worked differently you could sent 2 killing squads of insanely expensive units to snipe 2 different bases and then recall them back to you. You could do really fun things with MS(MS rush with recall into base  ) Now you cannot do this because recall works differently :/ The same applies to the cloaking field. it doesn't work unless you are with the one and only Chesney Hawks... oh, sorry,... with the one and only MS If you look at its place in hots right now, the only reason to build it is the cloaking field in ultra late game. Sure timewarp is nice, but you don't build multiple 400/400 units (or even just cores at that time) for this. Also I want the MS to be more of a macro unit, on which the limit of one would hurt less than a fighting unit I think. They changed the recall mechanic after WoL because it was too easy and too effective, used just the ways you mentioned. But I also think it was pretty fun and thats what I try to archieve with Teleport Beacon. You'd need a energy field, and maybe some time to set it up, but with a warpprism you could use it aggressively again >  I get that the cap seems very arteficial, but as long as it doesn't level up or earn xp I'm fine with the mothership
Don't forget that they gave the recall to T1 unit. And since they "do not want to confuse people" they changed the spell for MS too. If you give a Yamato cannon to marauders you would need to balance it the same way ,-)
This doesn't change that we need to remove this heroic unit and replace it. That's why I want the return of arbiter and we can left the MS just for the campaign where this type of unit belongs(and to the arcade section ).
In the end we can balance it, give the recall research time, give it smaller radius and finally BUFF the early game of Protoss! Do NOT give Protoss some gimmicks like force field or band aids like time warp/nexus overcharge. Give us back the arbiter(please note that arbiter in BW costs 350 gas, that's 2 templars and a stalker!!!(who cares about minerals when playing Protoss anyway ). The limitation of the unit will be in a gas cost(And research time/cost of its abilities). Arbiter was and will be late game(or more super late game) caster with so huge investment that you cannot just rush it and "hey, I am safe, because... wait a minute, I no longer have a MSC!".
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I propose (and intent to implement in my mod - you know which one) a change to MSC to be more like a flying Queen. Give it chronoboost, remove or nerf some of the defensive abilities and make the unit massable. Recall has to go to the actual Mothership as well.
With it we can buff Gateway units as well as reduce their construction time. This gives Protoss a fighting chance early game without relying on gimmics, while not buffing the proxy tactics (which cannot be chronoboosted). It also makes Protoss less relying on Warpgate tech in order to be in the game, both defensively and offensively.
Finally, by adding additional cost to Warpgates, an early warpin-based aggression is that much weaker. Protoss is better off attacking in the traditional way - by building units at home and moving out.
Ultimately, I believe it aligns with many things that have been said here.
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I'm gonna be honest here, things don't look good for protoss at all. Much changes are needed and I don't see the devs WILLING to make a true overhaul for the protoss design. From my perspective here is what's wrong:
1-With the exception of stalkers, the protoss army has lower mobility than other races.
2-The bulk of that lower mobility army is also weaker than other races bulk army units..
3-The already low mobility and weak army relies on very few critical units to balance the fight, albeit these units (HT, sentry, MSC, Col) are even SLOWER, very fragile, snipable and are only really effective when used with the presence of the bulk army.
4-The two mobile sky units (phoenix and oracle) are BOTH harrass/support based and can't be used as a sky army that can kill you if you don't respond to it (muta for instance).
5-Even the low mobility captial ships are not anywhere near as effective as mutas for the simple reason that other races anti air units are very strong (marines, vikings, new liberator??, corruptor, infestor, vipers) and their anti air defense building are also very strong compared to toss.
So overall everything about protoss is absolute shit except for:
1- Force Fields.
2- Warp Ins.
3- One army deathballs.
And that's why, unsurprisingly, protoss mostly either win with all-ins(that utilize their first two strengths: forcefields and warp ins) or that utilize deathballs (their last strength).
I really wish all the luck to the Blizz folks but in all honesty, do they really wanna fix every unit out there? I doubt that.
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On July 22 2015 00:59 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2015 21:04 Cascade wrote:On July 19 2015 09:42 Cloak wrote:
What's the true harm of uncapping MsC? Multi pronged recall seems like an attractive goal. They also don't stack that well. Yeah, you know when you have 8 sentries, 20 stalkers and a msc, and youu can kill 50 roaches by cutting them off 10 at a time? But you die if there are 80 roaches? But you can only force field, blink AND slow time once, or at most twice, because you only have one msc. If you could bring like 4 msc, you could go FF, blink and slow time as many times as you want, so that the fight with the roaches and lings become a bit more fair also the fifth engagement. Yeah, that'd make more fair, fun and entertaining games. Can you explain what you mean by that? You have stuff to kill an army but you die if he has more than you do...?
Exactly, and removing the MSc cap is a simple and elegant way to fix that design flaw. I think you understood it right.
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On July 22 2015 05:47 i)awn wrote:
So overall everything about protoss is absolute shit except for:
1- Force Fields.
2- Warp Ins.
3- One army deathballs.
Adepts actually hold quite well on their own and make little gateway armies quite strong. They're arguably too strong in all-ins but I'm pretty OK with the idea to make Protoss rely more on gateway units than on high tech in every match-up.
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On July 22 2015 07:42 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2015 00:59 gTank wrote:On July 21 2015 21:04 Cascade wrote:On July 19 2015 09:42 Cloak wrote:
What's the true harm of uncapping MsC? Multi pronged recall seems like an attractive goal. They also don't stack that well. Yeah, you know when you have 8 sentries, 20 stalkers and a msc, and youu can kill 50 roaches by cutting them off 10 at a time? But you die if there are 80 roaches? But you can only force field, blink AND slow time once, or at most twice, because you only have one msc. If you could bring like 4 msc, you could go FF, blink and slow time as many times as you want, so that the fight with the roaches and lings become a bit more fair also the fifth engagement. Yeah, that'd make more fair, fun and entertaining games. Can you explain what you mean by that? You have stuff to kill an army but you die if he has more than you do...? Exactly, and removing the MSc cap is a simple and elegant way to fix that design flaw. I think you understood it right.
PvZ is going to be a fun match up alright, but not for the zerg, multiple recalls, time warps and photon overcharge.
I would expect a lot of zerg players to just quit the game if that happens.
That is not an elegant solution at all, having multiple recalls is probably the worst way to fix protoss, not to mention PO is already very strong, now with 2-3 MsC you barely won't need any units to defend multiple bases, maybe a few cannons, and then multiple time warps on top of force field.... I'm shivering just thinking about it.
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On July 22 2015 08:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2015 05:47 i)awn wrote:
So overall everything about protoss is absolute shit except for:
1- Force Fields.
2- Warp Ins.
3- One army deathballs.
Adepts actually hold quite well on their own and make little gateway armies quite strong. They're arguably too strong in all-ins but I'm pretty OK with the idea to make Protoss rely more on gateway units than on high tech in every match-up.
I'm gonna be honest and say I haven't seen replays in LotV utilizing adepts except with some 4gate builds. I doubt though that the protoss army will ever hold vs any mid game composition without the use of slow fragile support units which would severely limit its mobility and its ability to do multi pronged attacks. I wish they start considering significant changes for the FF and Warp ins, but that will also lead to balancing pretty much every other unit.
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On July 22 2015 08:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2015 05:47 i)awn wrote:
So overall everything about protoss is absolute shit except for:
1- Force Fields.
2- Warp Ins.
3- One army deathballs.
Adepts actually hold quite well on their own and make little gateway armies quite strong. They're arguably too strong in all-ins but I'm pretty OK with the idea to make Protoss rely more on gateway units than on high tech in every match-up.
I don't think it's worth discussing the possible impacts of buffing gateway units on Protoss early aggression--this often comes up when people suggest buffing zealot/stalker, which would obviously make early 1 gate pressure vs. terran a lot stronger. This is a natural side effect and can be dealt with...after gateway units get stronger, without nerfing them.
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On July 22 2015 09:36 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2015 07:42 Cascade wrote:On July 22 2015 00:59 gTank wrote:On July 21 2015 21:04 Cascade wrote:On July 19 2015 09:42 Cloak wrote:
What's the true harm of uncapping MsC? Multi pronged recall seems like an attractive goal. They also don't stack that well. Yeah, you know when you have 8 sentries, 20 stalkers and a msc, and youu can kill 50 roaches by cutting them off 10 at a time? But you die if there are 80 roaches? But you can only force field, blink AND slow time once, or at most twice, because you only have one msc. If you could bring like 4 msc, you could go FF, blink and slow time as many times as you want, so that the fight with the roaches and lings become a bit more fair also the fifth engagement. Yeah, that'd make more fair, fun and entertaining games. Can you explain what you mean by that? You have stuff to kill an army but you die if he has more than you do...? Exactly, and removing the MSc cap is a simple and elegant way to fix that design flaw. I think you understood it right. PvZ is going to be a fun match up alright, but not for the zerg, multiple recalls, time warps and photon overcharge. I would expect a lot of zerg players to just quit the game if that happens. That is not an elegant solution at all, having multiple recalls is probably the worst way to fix protoss, not to mention PO is already very strong, now with 2-3 MsC you barely won't need any units to defend multiple bases, maybe a few cannons, and then multiple time warps on top of force field.... I'm shivering just thinking about it.
POs attack quickly drops in usefulness once a Nexus snipe is trivial. Recall is the desired effect. The only worrisome spell is the snare which has been sufficiently nerfed over its history.
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I'm a zerg, so I can't speak for PvT, but in PvZ it seems like toss have a problem whenever they want to go for any expand build at all. They just can't keep up zerg with all the minerals they need to put in structures. They either need to be able to force units / hurt zergs economy very early, or push all-in early. I'm only diamond Z, but.. I just can't see tosses winning unless I mess up badly or lose to an unscouted all-in. I guess I play against a lot of players who are not too experienced yet, but to me it seems like this simply just does not add up.
I'm guessing faster build-up on chrono-boost could help? Something to let them either get more probes out, or have some sort of aggression. I'm fine with tosses forcing a roach warren early against adept-threats and forcing some units without toss needing to commit too much, to get into a fairly even mid-game. I think a way of balancing economy with toss aggression might be an answer.
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On July 13 2015 13:34 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Make Protoss like BW Protoss. Seriously.
That would fix every major design issue that makes Protoss gimmicky and bandaid-like right now.
I agree with this pretty much. But more specifically I would love to see the following:
1. Remove forcefield.
2. Remove mothership and mothership core.
3. Make warp-in worse than regular gateways in most aspects.
4. Reaver instead of the disruptor.
5. Either remove the colossus or leave it nerfed so people rarely make this terrible/boring unit.
6. Buff gateways units across the board to make up for all of these nerfs.
The goal would be to make protoss a fun race to play and play against. Not some cheesy/gimmicky trash race like it is now in Hots. I love playing as both terran and zerg, but protoss is completely unplayable for me. It just feels terrible.
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On August 03 2015 23:44 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2015 13:34 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Make Protoss like BW Protoss. Seriously.
That would fix every major design issue that makes Protoss gimmicky and bandaid-like right now. I agree with this pretty much. But more specifically I would love to see the following: 1. Remove forcefield. 2. Remove mothership and mothership core. 3. Make warp-in worse than regular gateways in most aspects. 4. Reaver instead of the disruptor. 5. Either remove the colossus or leave it nerfed so people rarely make this terrible/boring unit. 6. Buff gateways units across the board to make up for all of these nerfs. The goal would be to make protoss a fun race to play and play against. Not some cheesy/gimmicky trash race like it is now in Hots. I love playing as both terran and zerg, but protoss is completely unplayable for me. It just feels terrible.
I want same... T_T
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i'd like protoss to be the weakest race (just by a tiny little inch on top pro Level).
during hots it was the zerg race who always fought a battle of survival, and for all the balance whining - especially after last terran buff and sh removal - every time a zerg won something relevant it felt like christmas plus bday.
but i think i'm bored of my own zerg bias. i'd like to have a new favorite race, and it would be cool if terran or protoss could be the underdog race from now on. and since terran gets uber-loved by dk atm there's only the protoss left. imagine: we could be sincerely happy for a protoss, winning a big tournament against all odds. and all the honor people could switch to protoss and we'd hate the zergs and especially the terrans of course.
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I think it would be interesting if gateway units benefited more from each forge upgrade. That way they could scale better into the mid and late game without breaking the early game.
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On August 03 2015 23:44 hitpoint wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2015 13:34 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Make Protoss like BW Protoss. Seriously.
That would fix every major design issue that makes Protoss gimmicky and bandaid-like right now. I agree with this pretty much. But more specifically I would love to see the following: 1. Remove forcefield. 2. Remove mothership and mothership core. 3. Make warp-in worse than regular gateways in most aspects. 4. Reaver instead of the disruptor. 5. Either remove the colossus or leave it nerfed so people rarely make this terrible/boring unit. 6. Buff gateways units across the board to make up for all of these nerfs. The goal would be to make protoss a fun race to play and play against. Not some cheesy/gimmicky trash race like it is now in Hots. I love playing as both terran and zerg, but protoss is completely unplayable for me. It just feels terrible.
Agree with 1,2,3. Design changes first, balance after
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EPT
