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On June 20 2015 03:24 Nezgar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2015 03:08 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Community resourcing model suggestion - [...] We’re looking for a big change that will make sure that players will spread out their expansions at a much faster rate than they do in Heart of the Swarm.
- Currently, the resourcing model that we’re testing in the beta is doing a very good job of this.
Wait what? It is doing a good job right now? I didn't get that impression thus far. And I'm not sure whether the majority of the players are happy with the "gun to your head"-model...
I am impressed enough to buy Lotv.
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On June 23 2015 01:38 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2015 21:40 Jenia6109 wrote:
These new Vental Sacs just need to require Lair. I would put Lair and Overlord Speed as requirements. Elevator trick can still happen with Lair only. A fast Lair can still put a ton of pressure in-base just by putting units in the natural, since both Roaches and Zerglings are cheap and can overwhelm relatively easily, specially in ZvZ and ZvP.
Why should speed be a requirement? If someone wants to drop with slow as balls overlords, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to.
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Oh, thank you for the link sir, I just briefly skimmed it and will have to post over there. I will have to read more.
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On June 23 2015 02:20 ohmylanta1003 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 01:38 JCoto wrote:On June 22 2015 21:40 Jenia6109 wrote:
These new Vental Sacs just need to require Lair. I would put Lair and Overlord Speed as requirements. Elevator trick can still happen with Lair only. A fast Lair can still put a ton of pressure in-base just by putting units in the natural, since both Roaches and Zerglings are cheap and can overwhelm relatively easily, specially in ZvZ and ZvP. Why should speed be a requirement? If someone wants to drop with slow as balls overlords, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to.
Depends entirely on what direction they want to take I think. If they are straight up looking to allow Zerg the ability to put meaningful pressure on a FFE or 3CC then yes, I think the risk/reward factor of being able to pressure with only zerglings and roaches by using uber slow transports should equate to balance, may also result in Zerg being able to do something besides hatch first which would be nice.
If they want to push it back they could always just make it so you can morph Overseer, and then another 25 or 50 gas to allow it to carry cargo, maybe with a Hive tech upgrade to allow 2 additional slots. At least then the Zerg "dropship" would have a fast base movement speed and be a detector, which isn't as nice as a portable pylon or something that heals units is WAY better then having zero viable drop play options where the other two races have ridiculously powerful drop based options.
Sorry for the rant, just very stoked the balance team is actually doing something a bit more bold (not just adjusting cost or a base stat more of a design change) to try to push the game in a better direction, we need them to do this with Warp Gate and Terran late game units and LOTV would be golden in my eyes.
"Elevator trick can still happen with Lair only. A fast Lair can still put a ton of pressure in-base just by putting units in the natural, since both Roaches and Zerglings are cheap and can overwhelm relatively easily, specially in ZvZ and ZvP."
I readily disagree with this, overlord drop is beyond risky to invest into at Lair tech both tech wise and economically and it is painfully obvious to scout. Nydus cheeses/2 base all ins are way stronger unless your referring to sub Platinum league level ZvZ and ZvP.
Yea I'm sure there are videos of pro or GM Zergs pulling off drop all ins but honestly what can't those guys execute well on ladder?
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On June 23 2015 00:09 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2015 21:46 inken wrote:On June 22 2015 20:19 jinjin5000 wrote:
Currently, blizzard made a new change on ventral sacs- now it comes with an upgrade to overlord with at hatchery tech that allows zerg to have early access to drop tech at cost of 25/25 (125/25)-something that zerg wanted for while-an accessible drop tech.
However the current problem is- these ventral sacs come at way too early in the tech tree- at hatch tech- it opens up a lot of room for zerg- but in my opinion, it is accessed way to early.
Ventrac sacs in Hots require lair and 130 second research time- I
n Lotv, its is available right away at hatchery tech.
The problem with these ventral sacs are how powerful it is with combined with early zerg all ins- Zerg units as whole are balanced around open space for engagement. They excel in open space but upon coming in closed space such as at opponent's wall, where they are denied room, their low range serves as a disadvantage.
Now, with hatchery tech ventral sacs coming at low cost of 25/25 on overlord that would be needed to serve as supply anyway, zerg has access to bypass protoss/terran walls at near to no cost. This opens up tons of room for zerg all ins-common ones such as speedling all in and 1/1 roach push dropped at early stages of game are devastating- especially since zergs excel in places with much surface area. It is because most of terran/protoss advantages against these are kept with walls acting as a delay until they are either able to get more units out or do enough damage to stop. Bypassing this and dropping on top of production or into base would prove devastating. Zerg would be able to fight on equal grounds within the base of the Terran/Protoss race itself in open space while being able to wreak havoc on opponent production structures- a double wammy.
Also, the option of AA at the stage of game where such all ins would hit with ventral sacs are limited. empty overlords could be mixed in with regular overlords to protect the drops and each overlord,while slow is at tanky 200hp. Adding to general lack of stronger AA at beginning of game, it would make these drops incredibly powerful
Anyways another problem, as protoss currently stands, they were already having trouble defending these all ins-hence the addition of mothership core as what a lot of people derided as "band-aid" fix and limiting to buffs on other part of race. These drops would allow zergs to bypass it along with zealots general need to have small space to limit the surface area. Which again would be eliminated with these drops.
All this would do is exacerbate the problem.
To people who are going to say that opposition should prepare equally to oppositions all in: how many have seen holds to speedling all in without a wall or defensive structure? Why was photon overcharge added in first place? Ventral sac upgrade itself isnt an issue. its just that zergs ability to bypass wall so early on is. Just delay it to spire or lair tech as other races unlock their respective drop tech by then.
right. it is scandalous, zerg has a dangerous early game tool! terran and protoss have a right to feel totally safe behind their wall while building their perfect unit comp and sending out oracles, dts, reapers, adepts, hellbats, banshees and FLYING TANKS. btw either the lings or the overlords will be freakin slow before zerg has researched both speed upgrades. and roach speed is lair tech. and where are all those people who said "let's wait and see how zergs will adapt..." when terran got buffed the **** out of or when swarmhosts got "redesigned" or when even the ravager got nerfed (because there were some strong rushes) and the adept got steroids (so now there are some veeery strong rushes). seems like everyone got used to terran and protoss having zerg by the balls... Dude I play Zerg, but you need to get a clue. It doesn't matter that the overlords will be slow, you just need to rally them across the map somewhere near the opponents base while you're waiting for speed to finish anyways. Even just two overlords dropping 16 slings into a Terran base early on could cause tremendous damage and a lot of lost mining time. The only reason Terran and Protoss can survive sling rushes is because they have walls to defend behind. Zerg is unmatched in terms of being able to quickly macro an army early on, which is why the other races cannot fight them until they have had a chance to get infrastructure and tech up and running.
I think people are really overreacting to this.
Have you actually played LOTV and tried this?
Four player maps also make the ability irrelevant.
Extremely early drops are a big investment at 25 gas a pop, (four ovis is lair or upgrade) also the amount of units you have to crank out cuts into the your early game worker supply. What happens if i make a 4 ovi drop and you hold fine, then make 1 viking polt style. These ovis aren't running away, I lose 500/100 min and gas plus the units inside. I practically need to kill your a base to make that worth it. Also, these are slow ovi's, they will only really be useful at short distance drops which will come to predictable points in each base, otherwise it takes forever.
Not to mention the fact that zerg will basically be sacrificing their scouting (HUGE DEAL) to make a drop happen. Any worthwhile drop before ovi speed will require the initial ovi's.
For example, Im dropping 2 ovi's of slings in a protoss base (I did this), you are forced to rally your ovi's to the same side if you want the drop to hit together. The lings ran around, killed a zealot or a couple probes and then died. Ovi's made it back out and I did get a scout with the lings, but I don't think it justified the investment. Maybe it was equal or I was down a bit, I will try to post a replay if I can get a non-zvz match lol. I think this is maybe viable in zvp, but zvt I have many doubts, just for the fact hellions are out so fast. Maybe a roach drop is possible, as a zerg I love the variety, something that HOTS had 0% of for zerg. Marines can even just walk around and kill the second ovi before it gets to the drop point. Make 1 viking, Idk... The game vs protoss he held just fine and I went on to lose. That was me hatch expanding into gas then pool and rushing speed with drops. Maybe if I had 3 ovi with sling that is the magic number, but I doubt it.
The point is if you wait for lair or speed, you've missed a useful window. If people start dropping burrow roach with tunneling claw fast enough and it breaks the game, then I will say I'm wrong, but I doubt that will happen.
The ability is fine, and makes for some potential interesting openingss for zerg (which god knows they needed) aside only droning.
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On June 23 2015 04:44 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 00:09 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 22 2015 21:46 inken wrote:On June 22 2015 20:19 jinjin5000 wrote:
Currently, blizzard made a new change on ventral sacs- now it comes with an upgrade to overlord with at hatchery tech that allows zerg to have early access to drop tech at cost of 25/25 (125/25)-something that zerg wanted for while-an accessible drop tech.
However the current problem is- these ventral sacs come at way too early in the tech tree- at hatch tech- it opens up a lot of room for zerg- but in my opinion, it is accessed way to early.
Ventrac sacs in Hots require lair and 130 second research time- I
n Lotv, its is available right away at hatchery tech.
The problem with these ventral sacs are how powerful it is with combined with early zerg all ins- Zerg units as whole are balanced around open space for engagement. They excel in open space but upon coming in closed space such as at opponent's wall, where they are denied room, their low range serves as a disadvantage.
Now, with hatchery tech ventral sacs coming at low cost of 25/25 on overlord that would be needed to serve as supply anyway, zerg has access to bypass protoss/terran walls at near to no cost. This opens up tons of room for zerg all ins-common ones such as speedling all in and 1/1 roach push dropped at early stages of game are devastating- especially since zergs excel in places with much surface area. It is because most of terran/protoss advantages against these are kept with walls acting as a delay until they are either able to get more units out or do enough damage to stop. Bypassing this and dropping on top of production or into base would prove devastating. Zerg would be able to fight on equal grounds within the base of the Terran/Protoss race itself in open space while being able to wreak havoc on opponent production structures- a double wammy.
Also, the option of AA at the stage of game where such all ins would hit with ventral sacs are limited. empty overlords could be mixed in with regular overlords to protect the drops and each overlord,while slow is at tanky 200hp. Adding to general lack of stronger AA at beginning of game, it would make these drops incredibly powerful
Anyways another problem, as protoss currently stands, they were already having trouble defending these all ins-hence the addition of mothership core as what a lot of people derided as "band-aid" fix and limiting to buffs on other part of race. These drops would allow zergs to bypass it along with zealots general need to have small space to limit the surface area. Which again would be eliminated with these drops.
All this would do is exacerbate the problem.
To people who are going to say that opposition should prepare equally to oppositions all in: how many have seen holds to speedling all in without a wall or defensive structure? Why was photon overcharge added in first place? Ventral sac upgrade itself isnt an issue. its just that zergs ability to bypass wall so early on is. Just delay it to spire or lair tech as other races unlock their respective drop tech by then.
right. it is scandalous, zerg has a dangerous early game tool! terran and protoss have a right to feel totally safe behind their wall while building their perfect unit comp and sending out oracles, dts, reapers, adepts, hellbats, banshees and FLYING TANKS. btw either the lings or the overlords will be freakin slow before zerg has researched both speed upgrades. and roach speed is lair tech. and where are all those people who said "let's wait and see how zergs will adapt..." when terran got buffed the **** out of or when swarmhosts got "redesigned" or when even the ravager got nerfed (because there were some strong rushes) and the adept got steroids (so now there are some veeery strong rushes). seems like everyone got used to terran and protoss having zerg by the balls... Dude I play Zerg, but you need to get a clue. It doesn't matter that the overlords will be slow, you just need to rally them across the map somewhere near the opponents base while you're waiting for speed to finish anyways. Even just two overlords dropping 16 slings into a Terran base early on could cause tremendous damage and a lot of lost mining time. The only reason Terran and Protoss can survive sling rushes is because they have walls to defend behind. Zerg is unmatched in terms of being able to quickly macro an army early on, which is why the other races cannot fight them until they have had a chance to get infrastructure and tech up and running. I think people are really overreacting to this. Have you actually played LOTV and tried this? Four player maps also make the ability irrelevant. Extremely early drops are a big investment at 25 gas a pop, (four ovis is lair or upgrade) also the amount of units you have to crank out cuts into the your early game worker supply. What happens if i make a 4 ovi drop and you hold fine, then make 1 viking polt style. These ovis aren't running away, I lose 500/100 min and gas plus the units inside. I practically need to kill your a base to make that worth it. Also, these are slow ovi's, they will only really be useful at short distance drops which will come to predictable points in each base, otherwise it takes forever. Not to mention the fact that zerg will basically be sacrificing their scouting (HUGE DEAL) to make a drop happen. Any worthwhile drop before ovi speed will require the initial ovi's. For example, Im dropping 2 ovi's of slings in a protoss base (I did this), you are forced to rally your ovi's to the same side if you want the drop to hit together. The lings ran around, killed a zealot or a couple probes and then died. Ovi's made it back out and I did get a scout with the lings, but I don't think it justified the investment. Maybe it was equal or I was down a bit, I will try to post a replay if I can get a non-zvz match lol. I think this is maybe viable in zvp, but zvt I have many doubts, just for the fact hellions are out so fast. Maybe a roach drop is possible, as a zerg I love the variety, something that HOTS had 0% of for zerg. Marines can even just walk around and kill the second ovi before it gets to the drop point. Make 1 viking, Idk... The game vs protoss he held just fine and I went on to lose. That was me hatch expanding into gas then pool and rushing speed with drops. Maybe if I had 3 ovi with sling that is the magic number, but I doubt it. The point is if you wait for lair or speed, you've missed a useful window. If people start dropping burrow roach with tunneling claw fast enough and it breaks the game, then I will say I'm wrong, but I doubt that will happen. The ability is fine, and makes for some potential interesting openingss for zerg (which god knows they needed) aside only droning.
Right? Shouldn't Zerg's be able to open somewhat aggressively at least sometimes? Or should we just have to hatch first for another 3 years.
Havent even tried the drop thing on any bigger maps, it's auto impossible to make work.
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On June 23 2015 05:13 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 04:44 ShambhalaWar wrote:On June 23 2015 00:09 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 22 2015 21:46 inken wrote:On June 22 2015 20:19 jinjin5000 wrote:
Currently, blizzard made a new change on ventral sacs- now it comes with an upgrade to overlord with at hatchery tech that allows zerg to have early access to drop tech at cost of 25/25 (125/25)-something that zerg wanted for while-an accessible drop tech.
However the current problem is- these ventral sacs come at way too early in the tech tree- at hatch tech- it opens up a lot of room for zerg- but in my opinion, it is accessed way to early.
Ventrac sacs in Hots require lair and 130 second research time- I
n Lotv, its is available right away at hatchery tech.
The problem with these ventral sacs are how powerful it is with combined with early zerg all ins- Zerg units as whole are balanced around open space for engagement. They excel in open space but upon coming in closed space such as at opponent's wall, where they are denied room, their low range serves as a disadvantage.
Now, with hatchery tech ventral sacs coming at low cost of 25/25 on overlord that would be needed to serve as supply anyway, zerg has access to bypass protoss/terran walls at near to no cost. This opens up tons of room for zerg all ins-common ones such as speedling all in and 1/1 roach push dropped at early stages of game are devastating- especially since zergs excel in places with much surface area. It is because most of terran/protoss advantages against these are kept with walls acting as a delay until they are either able to get more units out or do enough damage to stop. Bypassing this and dropping on top of production or into base would prove devastating. Zerg would be able to fight on equal grounds within the base of the Terran/Protoss race itself in open space while being able to wreak havoc on opponent production structures- a double wammy.
Also, the option of AA at the stage of game where such all ins would hit with ventral sacs are limited. empty overlords could be mixed in with regular overlords to protect the drops and each overlord,while slow is at tanky 200hp. Adding to general lack of stronger AA at beginning of game, it would make these drops incredibly powerful
Anyways another problem, as protoss currently stands, they were already having trouble defending these all ins-hence the addition of mothership core as what a lot of people derided as "band-aid" fix and limiting to buffs on other part of race. These drops would allow zergs to bypass it along with zealots general need to have small space to limit the surface area. Which again would be eliminated with these drops.
All this would do is exacerbate the problem.
To people who are going to say that opposition should prepare equally to oppositions all in: how many have seen holds to speedling all in without a wall or defensive structure? Why was photon overcharge added in first place? Ventral sac upgrade itself isnt an issue. its just that zergs ability to bypass wall so early on is. Just delay it to spire or lair tech as other races unlock their respective drop tech by then.
right. it is scandalous, zerg has a dangerous early game tool! terran and protoss have a right to feel totally safe behind their wall while building their perfect unit comp and sending out oracles, dts, reapers, adepts, hellbats, banshees and FLYING TANKS. btw either the lings or the overlords will be freakin slow before zerg has researched both speed upgrades. and roach speed is lair tech. and where are all those people who said "let's wait and see how zergs will adapt..." when terran got buffed the **** out of or when swarmhosts got "redesigned" or when even the ravager got nerfed (because there were some strong rushes) and the adept got steroids (so now there are some veeery strong rushes). seems like everyone got used to terran and protoss having zerg by the balls... Dude I play Zerg, but you need to get a clue. It doesn't matter that the overlords will be slow, you just need to rally them across the map somewhere near the opponents base while you're waiting for speed to finish anyways. Even just two overlords dropping 16 slings into a Terran base early on could cause tremendous damage and a lot of lost mining time. The only reason Terran and Protoss can survive sling rushes is because they have walls to defend behind. Zerg is unmatched in terms of being able to quickly macro an army early on, which is why the other races cannot fight them until they have had a chance to get infrastructure and tech up and running. I think people are really overreacting to this. Have you actually played LOTV and tried this? Four player maps also make the ability irrelevant. Extremely early drops are a big investment at 25 gas a pop, (four ovis is lair or upgrade) also the amount of units you have to crank out cuts into the your early game worker supply. What happens if i make a 4 ovi drop and you hold fine, then make 1 viking polt style. These ovis aren't running away, I lose 500/100 min and gas plus the units inside. I practically need to kill your a base to make that worth it. Also, these are slow ovi's, they will only really be useful at short distance drops which will come to predictable points in each base, otherwise it takes forever. Not to mention the fact that zerg will basically be sacrificing their scouting (HUGE DEAL) to make a drop happen. Any worthwhile drop before ovi speed will require the initial ovi's. For example, Im dropping 2 ovi's of slings in a protoss base (I did this), you are forced to rally your ovi's to the same side if you want the drop to hit together. The lings ran around, killed a zealot or a couple probes and then died. Ovi's made it back out and I did get a scout with the lings, but I don't think it justified the investment. Maybe it was equal or I was down a bit, I will try to post a replay if I can get a non-zvz match lol. I think this is maybe viable in zvp, but zvt I have many doubts, just for the fact hellions are out so fast. Maybe a roach drop is possible, as a zerg I love the variety, something that HOTS had 0% of for zerg. Marines can even just walk around and kill the second ovi before it gets to the drop point. Make 1 viking, Idk... The game vs protoss he held just fine and I went on to lose. That was me hatch expanding into gas then pool and rushing speed with drops. Maybe if I had 3 ovi with sling that is the magic number, but I doubt it. The point is if you wait for lair or speed, you've missed a useful window. If people start dropping burrow roach with tunneling claw fast enough and it breaks the game, then I will say I'm wrong, but I doubt that will happen. The ability is fine, and makes for some potential interesting openingss for zerg (which god knows they needed) aside only droning. Right? Shouldn't Zerg's be able to open somewhat aggressively at least sometimes? Or should we just have to hatch first for another 3 years. Havent even tried the drop thing on any bigger maps, it's auto impossible to make work.
On four player maps where you have to split your ovi scout it's impossible unless you want to guess, or I suppose send out a drone scout at the same time. That could work. Maybe a one base, slightly late expo into slow bane drop could get some lazy toss lol 
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if you park your overlord so his center is over the cliff can't you just elevator in your whole army?
I don't think you need speed, you could just it as a pseudo Nydus 
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Well, if Blizzard is reading, here's a few points I really hope someone can see and pass on:
1. The point is always communication, even more so than the actual changes you have made!
This is really important, both for the decision to change something or not to change something. When community makes a vocal suggestion on something, as you said, it does not necessarily mean that suggestion is good. However, it does mean that people have strong concern on this front and want to have discussions. If your internal test showed that the community's suggestion is bad, present your test result in a detailed, readable manner. People will appreciate.
Furthermore, more detailed response can make beta testing more efficient. When a change is made initially, one might not want to say much in order not to cause biased testing; but at some point, if the internal conclusion is not to care about a certain kind of feedback (deemed common but wrong), it is better to let the players know. What is even better is to convince players such is the case so they can better spend their energy elsewhere.
2. Speak in terms of not only results, but also principles:
Sometimes I feel Blizzard treats community suggestions in a very unfair way. Speaking of their own proposal, they can start from design intentions (this is interesting!) and if it doesn't work as intended or cause problems, tune the numbers later. See how ravagers and disruptors change. On community suggestions, they just pull out some simple numbers from current testing (if not just say something from their arbitrary impression) and say, no, it does not work, and move on.
I don't know if people remember, but what did Dayvie say in this initial response to community's resource model? And then you look at this current article. Isn't he stating the exact opposite, except reaching the same conclusion not to use it? This only shows that he did not really put in an effort to think about the intention and motivation of community's model, much less improve it if it's not working as intended with its current parameters. Instead, what I feel is he just tried to reject it by pulling out whatever numbers he can.
Really, whether accepting the model or not is not the question. The question is the reasoning. It is not as simple as judging by how similar it currently feels to HotS. It is whether you think 3-base cap is a problem, and whether you think there is a distinction between reward and punishment on how you incentivize more expansions, and do these things affect game play.
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On June 23 2015 05:13 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 04:44 ShambhalaWar wrote:On June 23 2015 00:09 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 22 2015 21:46 inken wrote:On June 22 2015 20:19 jinjin5000 wrote:
Currently, blizzard made a new change on ventral sacs- now it comes with an upgrade to overlord with at hatchery tech that allows zerg to have early access to drop tech at cost of 25/25 (125/25)-something that zerg wanted for while-an accessible drop tech.
However the current problem is- these ventral sacs come at way too early in the tech tree- at hatch tech- it opens up a lot of room for zerg- but in my opinion, it is accessed way to early.
Ventrac sacs in Hots require lair and 130 second research time- I
n Lotv, its is available right away at hatchery tech.
The problem with these ventral sacs are how powerful it is with combined with early zerg all ins- Zerg units as whole are balanced around open space for engagement. They excel in open space but upon coming in closed space such as at opponent's wall, where they are denied room, their low range serves as a disadvantage.
Now, with hatchery tech ventral sacs coming at low cost of 25/25 on overlord that would be needed to serve as supply anyway, zerg has access to bypass protoss/terran walls at near to no cost. This opens up tons of room for zerg all ins-common ones such as speedling all in and 1/1 roach push dropped at early stages of game are devastating- especially since zergs excel in places with much surface area. It is because most of terran/protoss advantages against these are kept with walls acting as a delay until they are either able to get more units out or do enough damage to stop. Bypassing this and dropping on top of production or into base would prove devastating. Zerg would be able to fight on equal grounds within the base of the Terran/Protoss race itself in open space while being able to wreak havoc on opponent production structures- a double wammy.
Also, the option of AA at the stage of game where such all ins would hit with ventral sacs are limited. empty overlords could be mixed in with regular overlords to protect the drops and each overlord,while slow is at tanky 200hp. Adding to general lack of stronger AA at beginning of game, it would make these drops incredibly powerful
Anyways another problem, as protoss currently stands, they were already having trouble defending these all ins-hence the addition of mothership core as what a lot of people derided as "band-aid" fix and limiting to buffs on other part of race. These drops would allow zergs to bypass it along with zealots general need to have small space to limit the surface area. Which again would be eliminated with these drops.
All this would do is exacerbate the problem.
To people who are going to say that opposition should prepare equally to oppositions all in: how many have seen holds to speedling all in without a wall or defensive structure? Why was photon overcharge added in first place? Ventral sac upgrade itself isnt an issue. its just that zergs ability to bypass wall so early on is. Just delay it to spire or lair tech as other races unlock their respective drop tech by then.
right. it is scandalous, zerg has a dangerous early game tool! terran and protoss have a right to feel totally safe behind their wall while building their perfect unit comp and sending out oracles, dts, reapers, adepts, hellbats, banshees and FLYING TANKS. btw either the lings or the overlords will be freakin slow before zerg has researched both speed upgrades. and roach speed is lair tech. and where are all those people who said "let's wait and see how zergs will adapt..." when terran got buffed the **** out of or when swarmhosts got "redesigned" or when even the ravager got nerfed (because there were some strong rushes) and the adept got steroids (so now there are some veeery strong rushes). seems like everyone got used to terran and protoss having zerg by the balls... Dude I play Zerg, but you need to get a clue. It doesn't matter that the overlords will be slow, you just need to rally them across the map somewhere near the opponents base while you're waiting for speed to finish anyways. Even just two overlords dropping 16 slings into a Terran base early on could cause tremendous damage and a lot of lost mining time. The only reason Terran and Protoss can survive sling rushes is because they have walls to defend behind. Zerg is unmatched in terms of being able to quickly macro an army early on, which is why the other races cannot fight them until they have had a chance to get infrastructure and tech up and running. I think people are really overreacting to this. Have you actually played LOTV and tried this? Four player maps also make the ability irrelevant. Extremely early drops are a big investment at 25 gas a pop, (four ovis is lair or upgrade) also the amount of units you have to crank out cuts into the your early game worker supply. What happens if i make a 4 ovi drop and you hold fine, then make 1 viking polt style. These ovis aren't running away, I lose 500/100 min and gas plus the units inside. I practically need to kill your a base to make that worth it. Also, these are slow ovi's, they will only really be useful at short distance drops which will come to predictable points in each base, otherwise it takes forever. Not to mention the fact that zerg will basically be sacrificing their scouting (HUGE DEAL) to make a drop happen. Any worthwhile drop before ovi speed will require the initial ovi's. For example, Im dropping 2 ovi's of slings in a protoss base (I did this), you are forced to rally your ovi's to the same side if you want the drop to hit together. The lings ran around, killed a zealot or a couple probes and then died. Ovi's made it back out and I did get a scout with the lings, but I don't think it justified the investment. Maybe it was equal or I was down a bit, I will try to post a replay if I can get a non-zvz match lol. I think this is maybe viable in zvp, but zvt I have many doubts, just for the fact hellions are out so fast. Maybe a roach drop is possible, as a zerg I love the variety, something that HOTS had 0% of for zerg. Marines can even just walk around and kill the second ovi before it gets to the drop point. Make 1 viking, Idk... The game vs protoss he held just fine and I went on to lose. That was me hatch expanding into gas then pool and rushing speed with drops. Maybe if I had 3 ovi with sling that is the magic number, but I doubt it. The point is if you wait for lair or speed, you've missed a useful window. If people start dropping burrow roach with tunneling claw fast enough and it breaks the game, then I will say I'm wrong, but I doubt that will happen. The ability is fine, and makes for some potential interesting openingss for zerg (which god knows they needed) aside only droning. Right? Shouldn't Zerg's be able to open somewhat aggressively at least sometimes? Or should we just have to hatch first for another 3 years. Havent even tried the drop thing on any bigger maps, it's auto impossible to make work.
You guys make it sound like 25/25 is a huge investment
Consider this: the sling all in with ovie speed hits between 4-4:30.
theres not much tool available to combat it:delay your expansion? You start to starve on mineral 5 minutes in. The drop would expose your production structures anyway if your choice of defence is a wall off and bunker in mineral line.
Protoss, you either need PO on 1 base to stall long enough and hope zerg doesnt wittle down on the wall on main and attack nexus instead or get baited po on 2nd and get dropped on main. Had troubles with forcefield? Wont have problem here
Zerg works in open space and wall is a tool to dent that early game until other race have enough in critical number of unit to combat and stand even. Hatch tech ovie drop gets rid of it all
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On June 24 2015 01:40 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 05:13 Beelzebub1 wrote:On June 23 2015 04:44 ShambhalaWar wrote:On June 23 2015 00:09 Survivor61316 wrote:On June 22 2015 21:46 inken wrote:On June 22 2015 20:19 jinjin5000 wrote:
Currently, blizzard made a new change on ventral sacs- now it comes with an upgrade to overlord with at hatchery tech that allows zerg to have early access to drop tech at cost of 25/25 (125/25)-something that zerg wanted for while-an accessible drop tech.
However the current problem is- these ventral sacs come at way too early in the tech tree- at hatch tech- it opens up a lot of room for zerg- but in my opinion, it is accessed way to early.
Ventrac sacs in Hots require lair and 130 second research time- I
n Lotv, its is available right away at hatchery tech.
The problem with these ventral sacs are how powerful it is with combined with early zerg all ins- Zerg units as whole are balanced around open space for engagement. They excel in open space but upon coming in closed space such as at opponent's wall, where they are denied room, their low range serves as a disadvantage.
Now, with hatchery tech ventral sacs coming at low cost of 25/25 on overlord that would be needed to serve as supply anyway, zerg has access to bypass protoss/terran walls at near to no cost. This opens up tons of room for zerg all ins-common ones such as speedling all in and 1/1 roach push dropped at early stages of game are devastating- especially since zergs excel in places with much surface area. It is because most of terran/protoss advantages against these are kept with walls acting as a delay until they are either able to get more units out or do enough damage to stop. Bypassing this and dropping on top of production or into base would prove devastating. Zerg would be able to fight on equal grounds within the base of the Terran/Protoss race itself in open space while being able to wreak havoc on opponent production structures- a double wammy.
Also, the option of AA at the stage of game where such all ins would hit with ventral sacs are limited. empty overlords could be mixed in with regular overlords to protect the drops and each overlord,while slow is at tanky 200hp. Adding to general lack of stronger AA at beginning of game, it would make these drops incredibly powerful
Anyways another problem, as protoss currently stands, they were already having trouble defending these all ins-hence the addition of mothership core as what a lot of people derided as "band-aid" fix and limiting to buffs on other part of race. These drops would allow zergs to bypass it along with zealots general need to have small space to limit the surface area. Which again would be eliminated with these drops.
All this would do is exacerbate the problem.
To people who are going to say that opposition should prepare equally to oppositions all in: how many have seen holds to speedling all in without a wall or defensive structure? Why was photon overcharge added in first place? Ventral sac upgrade itself isnt an issue. its just that zergs ability to bypass wall so early on is. Just delay it to spire or lair tech as other races unlock their respective drop tech by then.
right. it is scandalous, zerg has a dangerous early game tool! terran and protoss have a right to feel totally safe behind their wall while building their perfect unit comp and sending out oracles, dts, reapers, adepts, hellbats, banshees and FLYING TANKS. btw either the lings or the overlords will be freakin slow before zerg has researched both speed upgrades. and roach speed is lair tech. and where are all those people who said "let's wait and see how zergs will adapt..." when terran got buffed the **** out of or when swarmhosts got "redesigned" or when even the ravager got nerfed (because there were some strong rushes) and the adept got steroids (so now there are some veeery strong rushes). seems like everyone got used to terran and protoss having zerg by the balls... Dude I play Zerg, but you need to get a clue. It doesn't matter that the overlords will be slow, you just need to rally them across the map somewhere near the opponents base while you're waiting for speed to finish anyways. Even just two overlords dropping 16 slings into a Terran base early on could cause tremendous damage and a lot of lost mining time. The only reason Terran and Protoss can survive sling rushes is because they have walls to defend behind. Zerg is unmatched in terms of being able to quickly macro an army early on, which is why the other races cannot fight them until they have had a chance to get infrastructure and tech up and running. I think people are really overreacting to this. Have you actually played LOTV and tried this? Four player maps also make the ability irrelevant. Extremely early drops are a big investment at 25 gas a pop, (four ovis is lair or upgrade) also the amount of units you have to crank out cuts into the your early game worker supply. What happens if i make a 4 ovi drop and you hold fine, then make 1 viking polt style. These ovis aren't running away, I lose 500/100 min and gas plus the units inside. I practically need to kill your a base to make that worth it. Also, these are slow ovi's, they will only really be useful at short distance drops which will come to predictable points in each base, otherwise it takes forever. Not to mention the fact that zerg will basically be sacrificing their scouting (HUGE DEAL) to make a drop happen. Any worthwhile drop before ovi speed will require the initial ovi's. For example, Im dropping 2 ovi's of slings in a protoss base (I did this), you are forced to rally your ovi's to the same side if you want the drop to hit together. The lings ran around, killed a zealot or a couple probes and then died. Ovi's made it back out and I did get a scout with the lings, but I don't think it justified the investment. Maybe it was equal or I was down a bit, I will try to post a replay if I can get a non-zvz match lol. I think this is maybe viable in zvp, but zvt I have many doubts, just for the fact hellions are out so fast. Maybe a roach drop is possible, as a zerg I love the variety, something that HOTS had 0% of for zerg. Marines can even just walk around and kill the second ovi before it gets to the drop point. Make 1 viking, Idk... The game vs protoss he held just fine and I went on to lose. That was me hatch expanding into gas then pool and rushing speed with drops. Maybe if I had 3 ovi with sling that is the magic number, but I doubt it. The point is if you wait for lair or speed, you've missed a useful window. If people start dropping burrow roach with tunneling claw fast enough and it breaks the game, then I will say I'm wrong, but I doubt that will happen. The ability is fine, and makes for some potential interesting openingss for zerg (which god knows they needed) aside only droning. Right? Shouldn't Zerg's be able to open somewhat aggressively at least sometimes? Or should we just have to hatch first for another 3 years. Havent even tried the drop thing on any bigger maps, it's auto impossible to make work. You guys make it sound like 25/25 is a huge investment Consider this: the sling all in with ovie speed hits between 4-4:30. theres not much tool available to combat it:delay your expansion? You start to starve on mineral 5 minutes in. The drop would expose your production structures anyway if your choice of defence is a wall off and bunker in mineral line. Protoss, you either need PO on 1 base to stall long enough and hope zerg doesnt wittle down on the wall on main and attack nexus instead or get baited po on 2nd and get dropped on main. Had troubles with forcefield? Wont have problem here Zerg works in open space and wall is a tool to dent that early game until other race have enough in critical number of unit to combat and stand even. Hatch tech ovie drop gets rid of it all
Lol. Theorycrafting so hard.
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