EPTBuff static defense - good or bad? - Page 3
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baccardi
1 Post
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dust7
199 Posts
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On May 26 2015 12:00 friendship wrote: static defense should be viewed as a scrappy, sub-par time-buying solution to defending vs drops, warp prism warpins, ling run-bys and an occasional air harass. Vs any sustained harass the static defense should always fall short of cost-effectiveness. The benefit is you have time to get some units back to deal with the threat at hand. If it becomes possible for any race to build a bunch of static d what happens? -Deathball encouraged since why split off anything? -Split maps -- zerg gets creep to the middle and everyone suffers. toss throws down a line of cannons and everyone suffers, terran-- sorry your rockets only shoot up but changing this might throw off the state of PvP so let's keep them as they are :D -Stupidly drawn out games where bases 5-8 are not touchable (static d costs only minerals and usually players have a decent bank by the time their 3rd is running smoothly) So since we have lots of protoss friends who want to buff their cannons for the above reasons, let's entertain the idea in exchange for: gas 50 gas added cost (one stalker worth) per cannon. Maybe this will kill the cannon rush, arguably the lamest thing in all of starcraft anyway. The problem is that "air harass" is not even occasional. It's part of GG moves of Terran (3-4 medivac drops) and Zerg (heavy on mutas) and occasionally, some weird Protoss strats (VoidRay mass). Terrans have very strong turrets (28DPS) that can be mass-repaired and tend to disencourage that kind of "doom" moves. Zergs have spores with decent DPS (18 DPS) that can be healed too and deal a ton of extra damage to mutas because they have bonus +30 vs biological. In the case of Protoss, Cannons are not that bad but have the lower DPS (16) and the longest weapon CD (more wasted shots because of longer overkilling period). The problem is that they can't be healed at all, don't have the better efficiency vs mutas, and vs T common 2-medivac drop just erases cannons in 1 second because the punch of marauders vs armored. In the midgame, cannons feel very useless to defend. To be effective at defending positions, Storm, Chargelots and phoenixes are needed. 2/3 are a very common part of the lategame so defending at that phase is not that painful, but Protoss is quite vulnerable until that point. Having more drawn games is not that bad by the way. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
Photon Cannons would benefit massively from gettig 25/33/50% splash added to their attack roughly the size of Thor AA splash (vs Mutalisk mostly, probably helps vs Marines but nothing else). Zerg structures are pretty fine, Spines and Spored would probably be strong with faster unburrow/burrow/move speed, to keep in the theme of the race. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 26 2015 20:00 JCoto wrote: The problem is that "air harass" is not even occasional. It's part of GG moves of Terran (3-4 medivac drops) and Zerg (heavy on mutas) and occasionally, some weird Protoss strats (VoidRay mass). Terrans have very strong turrets (28DPS) that can be mass-repaired and tend to disencourage that kind of "doom" moves. Zergs have spores with decent DPS (18 DPS) that can be healed too and deal a ton of extra damage to mutas because they have bonus +30 vs biological. In the case of Protoss, Cannons are not that bad but have the lower DPS (16) and the longest weapon CD (more wasted shots because of longer overkilling period). The problem is that they can't be healed at all, don't have the better efficiency vs mutas, and vs T common 2-medivac drop just erases cannons in 1 second because the punch of marauders vs armored. In the Midgame, cannons feel very useless to defend. To be effective at defending positions, Storm, Chargelots and phoenixes are needed. Cannons have the advantage of hitting both air and ground, on the other hand. a HT and 2/3 cannons (add warp ins for extra funsies) are a very tough defense to penetrate for any drop army without commitment and high investment. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
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Redfish
United States142 Posts
On May 25 2015 23:26 Ej_ wrote: if there's 30 mutas out and you have a group of stalkers and a bunch of cannons to defend them, you are doing something wrong Like not scouting an obscure proxy spire in some nowhere part of the map with a lucky or stupidly pathed halluc phoenix, while my opponent built a hydra den as a fake? Yeah, dumb on me for not doing that. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 26 2015 21:05 Redfish wrote: Like not scouting an obscure proxy spire in some nowhere part of the map with a lucky or stupidly pathed halluc phoenix, while my opponent built a hydra den as a fake? Yeah, dumb on me for not doing that. If your Zerg opponent can save 3K gas in the midgame, when that scenario is relevant, then yes, dumb you. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
and the longest weapon CD (more wasted shots because of longer overkilling period) It's the projecile speed that determines overkill. Not attack speed. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3371 Posts
On May 26 2015 21:49 Hider wrote: It's the projecile speed that determines overkill. Not attack speed. It's both, Thors don't have projectile speed in it's AtG, but it still overkills zerglings. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
Zerg static defense is not really static, turrets are cheaper and bunkers can be salvaged (they still can right?). | ||
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claybones
United States244 Posts
Protoss needs splash damage that defends in a more supply effective way (see reavers, SC1 templar). Zerg needs a way to slow down attackers while their armies reinforce outlying bases. They may have it if they figure out the perfect combination of infestors, lurkers and spines. The nydus canal would be nice too (like a cheaper worm that has to be within a certain range of a hatch and makes no sound on spawn). I feel like Terran basically has the tools they need, however they do still feel weak in a certain regard. I couldn't comment there though. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 26 2015 22:06 ejozl wrote: It's both, Thors don't have projectile speed in it's AtG, but it still overkills zerglings. It's a culmination of damage point, projective speed and the amount of damage/attack. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 27 2015 01:58 claybones wrote: I feel like Terran basically has the tools they need, however they do still feel weak in a certain regard. I couldn't comment there though. Sure, PFs defend against zerglings, but pretty much everything else can take down a PF with a decent investment... Terran GtG defense is way too big and expensive to be used as much as you'd need it. | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
currently it's like 1 pylon/2 cannons. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On May 26 2015 20:38 SC2Toastie wrote: Cannons have the advantage of hitting both air and ground, on the other hand. a HT and 2/3 cannons (add warp ins for extra funsies) are a very tough defense to penetrate for any drop army without commitment and high investment. We are talking about just static defense and yet you bring in a Protoss HT, high tier specialized spellcaster, in order to act like Protoss has it as good as Terrans do. You never give up advocating for Terrans do you? Even when it's clear they have the highest DPS and best regeneration (repair > regen). That's like saying, turrets + Thor + bunker will deter early muta harrass...no really? If anything, Terran static D need to be nerfed, while P's should be buffed, and Z's buffed slightly. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24193 Posts
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On May 27 2015 05:40 parkufarku wrote: We are talking about just static defense and yet you bring in a Protoss HT, high tier specialized spellcaster, in order to act like Protoss has it as good as Terrans do. You never give up advocating for Terrans do you? Even when it's clear they have the highest DPS and best regeneration (repair > regen). That's like saying, turrets + Thor + bunker will deter early muta harrass...no really? If anything, Terran static D need to be nerfed, while P's should be buffed, and Z's buffed slightly. You know, Terrans never see problems regarding drops and so, and tend to neglect how strong their static D is specially with SCV's behind it.... Toastie is a good poster, but I think there he neglected that in fact, safety HTs with storm are very, very lategame or mid-lategame and Protoss must play 100% turlte until max supply then, because terran is going to be maxed out sooner anyways. Bio is very powerful and will max out very easily, and having a good answer for Protoos takes time and a lot of money, but what's more important, will cut the mobility of the army incredibly since both Colossi and HT are slow, so Drops have an easy time with that. Considering a LotV econ, there are going to be 4-5 bases available to harass with double drops that are quite cheap, very efficient and hard to intercept, and leaving HT supply behind each base is not a good option. In that theoreitical situation, Protoss is going to need better static D to deal with drops but also with the stupid LotV nydus worm. In fact, cannons will benefit for a complementary mchanic, or bonus damage vs armored (thinking of 20+10 here) to defend early Roaches and Medivac Drops/Marauders. Or even both. The problems I see is Cannon rush, which is something very iconic and fun, but could be indirectly buffed by bonus damage vs armor (even since Zerglings, Drones and Queens are light). That should be reviewed too. There is a cut ability in the editor for Protoss Nexus, called "invulnerability shield", that is a protectice bubble that turns a structure invulnerable for 20seconds. I think it is casteable in 12 range. By working a bit on it , it would be a very great measure to defend early pressures and drops at the cost of losing Chronoboost, which is not bad. I think that the problems it would had would be that the Protoss would fall behind in macro even easier early game, when Zerg can expand quite comfortably and Terrans have mules and econ behind early rushes that are very, very problematic for Toss to deal without Photon Overcharge. But we'll need to see. Te whole idea is to find something that could empower protoss static D replacing the gimmick of Photon overcharge from MSC, since Photon Overcharge is simply adding a 13 range Photon Cannon on top of a nexus. | ||
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tokinho
United States792 Posts
On May 25 2015 20:03 RoomOfMush wrote: I believe that static D is an important part of RTS games. Static D plays a huge role in real-life military, so why should it not play a role in video game military as well? If you compare SC2 with SC:BW you will see that BW static D was much more scary and potent. Thats not directly because of the stats (raw damage, hp, etc) but the map design, pathing, unit collisions, etc. If you, as a zerg, put sunkens, spores and lurkers on top of a narrow ramp (of which there were plenty in BW maps) you had a ridiculously tight defense, your enemy actually had to invest into breaking that instead of face rolling over it. In SC2 battles always seem to resolve around deathballs running around. You dont want to put units into defensive positions because then your deathball is smaller then your opponents deathball. And the bigger deathball almost always wins (if we assume equally skilled players and balanced races). So putting units aside for defense means you can not fight with your army because your army is weaker. That wasnt such a big problem in BW, at least it doesnt seem that way to me. When I watch the SSL11 that is going on right now I see those BW pros put up lots and lots of static D and the games do not degenerate into turtle fests at all. The static D gives them an opportunity to be more aggressive and to be more out on the map because they dont have to live in fear and they know that they have a steady income that is not suddenly going to take a big hit because of 8 zealots or 6 dark templars or a crackling run by or something. um....... if you are the player doing the drops zealot harass or ling run bys, you don't have the opportunity to be more aggressive. Just the thinking seems backward. I do agree though, warp gate is abused so much. Its the worst part of sc2. | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On May 27 2015 03:37 SC2Toastie wrote: Sure, PFs defend against zerglings, but pretty much everything else can take down a PF with a decent investment... Terran GtG defense is way too big and expensive to be used as much as you'd need it. Question is, can Planetary fortresses kill enough units equal to their cost even without repairs? Enough to deflect some pressure from minor units like the ones from Drops and Runbies? I think PF is quite efficient. They can be also repaired, which is very exclusive and strong for a 1500HP building with 3 armor. With Building armor it's 5 armor, something very noticeable, Specially vs Marines, LotV marauders, Hellions, Zerglings, Zealots, Adepts... common ground harass units. Could 100gas instead of 150 help in a positive way? | ||
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