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i had really hoped for some more interesting changes. Im going to talk about protoss, because its the race i know best.
Defending
The mothership core is flawed. A defensive unit is fine, a unit to recall is fine, both together dont make sense. While thats great for 3 bases - as it goes later, the MSC loses effectiveness as a defensive tool.
Imagine a game with unlimited possible recall units, splitting your army with the option to recall multiple groups (with the investment of multiple mscs) sounds great. An extra option to defend your bases also sounds good.
Secondly, i dont understand why every base defence has to involve something shooting. There would be a significant defenders advantage if instead of shooting, the MSC or chronoboosting something, provided an armor / damage or regeneration bonus to units within the nexus range. \
That would allow protoss to defend more easily, while not buffing their offensive potential. It would also only be effective if you actually had units ready.
Or what about something like sentries "forcefielding" a friendly building for extra HP/ firerate.
The defenders advantage is actually the worst for protoss. Fighting on creep gives the strategival advantage of maphack, queens and movement speed. Fighting near a terrans base - bunkers and planetary with repairs. Fighting near a protoss - i guess warpins?, or cannons in the mineral lines? - the fix definitely isnt the MSC (which is too strong, and too weak at the same time)
Secondly, AOE abilities
I feel like the colossus nerf was way overdue. However, I also feel like the disruptor will cause a lot of pain as the game progresses. Its an extremely expensive unit, that - as people get better at splitting, will lose effectiveness - and im guessing will stop trading cost effectively at some point. The obvious synergy with stasis ward is there, but thats like relying on burrowed banelings every single game.
I guess you could say we got the Adept - but that hasnt been gamebreaking yet.
The colossus was a key tool in dealing with terran mech - and not the most effective one at that.
Protoss air
With many units performing below avarage, protoss admittedly has the strongest air units in the game. Terran can, however already contest it fairly well in HotS with ravens and vikings - and with a new unit AA unit on the horizon - i feel like mech might pose a wall for protoss at some point.
I also think Mutas will become problematic again, with the new Viper air bomb.
Cracklings, Hellbats and Zealots- the mineral dump
Protoss has the worst mineral dump of the 3 races. Yes zealots are good for harassing (only because of warpprism warpins), but with the new zerglings - at 3/3 they trade very efficiently. While i dont know how big a problem this really is - in conjunction with the worse AOE abilities - defending your outlying bases against speedlings might become pretty ineffective.
Maybe the adept (with its low gascost) is supposed to be this unit. But it still costs gas.
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here are my thoughts on this patch:
1)cyclone: good change, but i still think a small dmg nerf is needed as well.
with the ravager nerf zerg have to open fast mutas against mech,
and i doubt that blizz wants zerg to have only 1(!) viable counter to early game mech pushes,
not to mention protoss who are forced to open blink EVERY SINGLE GAME against terran.
2) ravager- i actually don't mind this change. i think blizz want to see more lurker play and i agree with them.
HOWEVER, if blizz vision of the ravager is only as a roach upgraded with a skill,
then this skill HAS to be more significant, either in dmg or, preferably, in AoE.
3) SH- as always blizz chooses the radical options, and rightly so since this is the beta.
SH borrow movements is something i thought should have been implemented in hots along with the last patch.
next, i don't really know if SH should be 4 supply or 3, but if blizz want to see extensive use of them i guess 3 is better,
since u need at least 10 (30-40 supply) to effectively harass and it just takes too much out of your army.
as for the SH cost, it should have been tested at 150/150 with flying locust as the get go,
OR 200/100 with the flying locust requiring an upgrade, but then again- beta->testing->radical...
i think it's safe to assume that we'll see this unit tweaked more in the near future.
as for the rest of the changes i generally approve of them (YES, including not implementing dual harvest).
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This is basically turning into Starcraft of the Storm.
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I'm usually really fond of Blizzard's work of balance, but I must admit than since HotS, I feel like the game is not going where it is supposed to be.
I dislike the idea of giving the reaper an active ability, it feels too much like a moba... I personnaly would give only spellcasters powerfull and diverse abilities and other units not so much.
Burrowing, siege mode, stimm, blink... These are fine, simple abilities for me. But every unit does not need an ability to be good. What makes a unit good is how it interracts with other unit : it's fun to have diverse army composition and positional play, it's not so fun when the game only revolve around unit abilities.
Protoss Deathballs used to revolve around the enormous range and insane damage of the colossus. Brood Lord infestor revolved around a lockdown + long range and insane dps. Mech in TvZ revolved around siege tank turtling + hunter seeker missile. Swarm host play was an entire thing of it's own...
I'm not sure at this point even more abilities is going to be the answer. I think the existing abilities should be balanced around the kind of game we want. I totally agree on the politic of pushing the player to expand & to harass... I think it's a step in the right direction. Constant harassment means constant defenses means having to control the map and fighting for it. Today, I feel like map control is underrated because defense is IMHO too strong against harass : it is too easy to shutdown harass now. I don't think buffing the harass unit is the answer : the Oracle was a unit that was insane at harassment but was useless once it was shut down. I think the kind of harassment that work the most is the harassment with non specialized units : compare repear, oracle play to terran drop, protoss dt/ht drop, muta play... What's the most fun ?
I really like the damage reduction from the colossus. I think Protoss gameplay could be changed a bit more allowing protoss unit to be less specialized and more versatile - less deathbally as possible. I dislike the adept for this reason and I think it serves too much as a harass focus oriented destined to do nothing in lategame (see repear, oracle...). I think the colossus nerf is good but I think the colossus should change it's course to something different - maybe deadlier but riskier ? Knowing that the new exploding Protoss unit is doing to do just that (forgot the name).
I like the direction of the Banshee which become less and less a specialized harass unit and more of an army composition unit. I think it makes it a really interesting option, and adds a lot of diversity. So about this new terran unit, I'm not sure... I think terran gameplay is one of the most versatile of the game right now and that terran doesn't specifically need units. I think some terran units could be reworked instead : the widow mine doesn't feel right as this time and it feels like it's either too strong or useless, the tank is a really cool designed unit but unfortunately not effective enough in tvz tvp, the ghost is only about countering templars which is quite sad since the unit is awesome. The rest of the terran arsenal is cool (maybe the hunter seeker could be removed for something less heavy like a shield ... And bring the irradiate back ??  ). Btw, I don't know much about the cyclone but I think a kindof goliathy unit would be fun to play with. And if it was the case, maybe we could tweak a bit the viking role ?
The zerg is taking really the right direction IMHO with the Ravager that might need to be tweaked down a bit. Zerg desperately needs some cost effective units to be feared and it's good to give zerg player the option in a matchup to viably diverse his/her composition in the matchup - I think the new units are going to achieve this role really well. Healthy early game with handfull of roach ravagers in TvZ could be fun, and it could give Z other option than zergling baneling mutas which feels too much limited. The new viper ability is awesome, and Lurker is a superfun unit, allowing a lot of positional play.
Anyway, just my 2 cents
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Reaper will knockback worker to deny mining. I wonder if it will work only on light unit.
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Hey, Blizzard can you reduce ultra dmg point before friday? that would be great
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to sum up: we didn't make reapers OP enough in HOTS, so we're making it worse. We still refuse to admit how ridiculous cyclones are especially in the early game, so we're going to nerf it in a way that doesn't do anything to fix the early game, and we're going to let it be the same level of OP in the lategame. however, when zerg actually manages to win games early on, which we at blizzard believe just should be impossible, we sit bolt upright and take serious notice of that and immediately nerf whatever it was that allowed zerg to win those games.
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Warp in time is a good change. I'd have liked to see them lower the damage a bit, maybe 150.
I don't get what all these mech buffs they are talking about. It's literally a unit (Cyclone) and an ability from the Medivac. That doesn't seem like a buff to me..
The whole reason people wanted mech upgrades combined was Vikings vs toss and tvt mech. That really doesn't change if you're making the cyclones ability a fusion core upgrade.
Moving the cyclones upgrade to Fusion Core seems stupid. But I'd like to see how it plays out with the new Terran air unit. Hopefully after that we can see where exactly Thors come into play in the new game and how to make them not suck.
Swarm Host.. I dunno. Seems like too much. Burrowed movement and flying locusts. Just seems like they are better served in making a whole new unit. It's basically a specialized Infestor now that can only spawn Marines. Which is cool, by all means, but it's not what the Swarm Host was meant to be.
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oh yay now terran is vulnurable to stupid mothership core shit again
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Nope, unnecessary, forced onto the unit to give it *something*. Also it is another stupid activated ability, fuck up Protoss all you want but please keep your hands of the still RTS-worthy races with this bullshit.
Minerals- Amounts changed from 100%/50% to 100%/60%
Still worse of an economy than standard HotS economy and obviously DH economy. You're wasting your precious beta time by tweaking this.
Protoss- Warp-in duration reverted to Heart of the Swarm.
One of the more meaningful changes to make Protoss matchups enjoyable reverted for some dubious reasoning that producing units inside your opponents army should be rewarded.
Adept- Adept’s weapon’s damage point changed from .4 to default (0.167)
Exactly... to the default one. Speak, to the one that has been critizised all along. Way to go understanding what a responsive unit is blizzard but you are getting there.
Cyclone- Can no longer target air.
- New upgrade: allows Cyclones to target air (fusion core requirement, researched from factory tech lab). 100/100 cost.
yeah, that's not really the problem with the cyclone. Keep guessing.
Hint: high Hitpoints+ high damage + high range + high speed... guess how many other units feature all of those aspects...
Ravager- Weapon period changed from 0.8 to 1.6
- Weapon range reduced from 6 to 4
Good start changing the ravager and you got the right idea saying "Roaches will be better units for cost efficiency, whereas Ravagers are meant to be built in strategic numbers when their ability can prove useful."
Now their ability just has to be made useful for a 100/100 unit.
Also: JUST REMOVE FORCEFIELD ALREADY
Swarm Host- Cost changed to 200/100/3
- No longer requires to upgrade for flying locusts (flying locusts are enabled from the start)
- Locust health down from 65 to 50
- Swarm hosts can burrow move at 2 speed
Please remove that unit, thanks in advance for your understanding. This is beginning to become worse than the HotS beta Oracle/MsC debacle...
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Those are some weird and cool ideas, however, some are "meh" IMO
Don't like the Reaper being a "Tychus 2.0" unit  , may have some cool play, but - don't think that this game needs knockback TBH.. It's far too annoying to deal against and can cause more of rng/undesired effects rather than a good dynamic of the game IMO
Perhaps have an upgrade that makes them change the pistol ammo individually and have some of them deal more damage to armored and some of them keep as are vs light.. Maybe.. I just DK what do give to the unit (perhaps extra HP but don't like that cause of it potentially becomming a Marine 2.0).. Perhaps keep the Cyclone as is, and give the Anti-Air upgrade to the Reaper.. I just DK
For Ravage - sure feels fine to reduce the rate of fire, but - not sure about the range change though.. This way Ravagers are used from the back line and with 4 range they'd "mix" and "mess" up the frontline of the Roach comp.. Unless the idea is to encourage Ravagers to be used with something else (not Roaches) then it's fine, otherwise don't think that the range reduction is a good move overall
SwarmHost is totally the different direction of which I thought.. I mean - SH is "tricky" in terms of even though you have the Air Locusts upgrade you'd still want the ground locusts sometimes instead lol.. IDK - could be good at LotV, surely we need a separate ground and separate air launch on the SHosts in HotS however
Terran = new unit should be Air unit - couldn't agree more.. Mainly cause even now we can see the amount of Mech and Bio games are overwhelming whilest we almost never see sky Terran (unless played by Avilo )
Could be something that has a small range (almost melee) and has some AoE and then able to deploy on the Ground to deal sniping damage to a single target from afar, probably with bonus damage vs Armored.. That's not a bad idea overall
Protoss changes = although I hoped to see more diverse response, still reverting back the warp-in is the right move cause of PvP attacker's advantage being too strong and the fact that PvT vs bio is almost impossible to defend drops (other than with some Stasis-ward shenanigans overall).. Still - could experiment with something like - IDK - make Sentries and Adepts be built faster in regular Gateways or sth like that overall
Oh, and almost forgot - really - to avoid very unnecessary balancing head-aches - rework how the Nydus works.. Make it have 3 armor or something, perhaps make it unload 4 units right away when up but yeah - don't make those things invulnerable lol
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Haha love all the comments before one game with this patch is even played haha!I really like it that blizzard don't immediately nerf everything into oblivion, but give the units and the economy time to develop.
I hope that with this patch the beta becomes more playable for protoss, and balance just enough to see more strategies pop up.
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It would be cool to see a new Terran Starport harass unit, perhaps somewhat similar to the Wraith's capabilities in BW but with new design and slightly new purpose (harassment being a focus word in LotV). I was thinking, why not use our current military ideas, such as the Osprey (which transforms from helicopter to plane), and implement it into the future of the Starcraft.
For instance, it would be built like a helicopter (its main state), but it can transform on cooldown into a fast, jet-propelled plane in order to get out of tricky situations. This ability should have a straight trajectory without chance of deviation but incredibly quick transform-to-plane mode and incredibly fast speed. When coming out of the transformation, a cool animation could consist of the plane gliding into a stall, in which it transforms back into helicopter mode.
While in its main mode, it could be a fast-shooting but low damage harass unit that is good against all light and light-armored units . . . and I realize I'm just describing the new banshee. Never mind.
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On April 28 2015 08:50 nickbradvica wrote:
It would be cool to see a new Terran Starport harass unit, perhaps somewhat similar to the Wraith's capabilities in BW but with new design and slightly new purpose (harassment being a focus word in LotV).
But why would Terran need a new “harass unit”? Wasn't the Oracle fiasco enough? Terran has already Banshees and Medivac + anything (Marines, Marauders, Hellions, even the nonsensical Sieged Tank drop). You speak of Wraiths: imagine if Colossi were reworked to make sense, this would free Vikings from their anti-Colossi duty and allow a reduction in the transformation time, raising their currently laughable raiding potential while keeping them useful in battles (unlike Oracles).
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its so weird how blizzard want to mech mech viable but wants air to like hard counter it..... how about instead of unit X can't shoot up until a special upgrade... its special ability is upgradable after the armory.....
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On April 28 2015 08:31 Big J wrote:Nope, unnecessary, forced onto the unit to give it *something*. Also it is another stupid activated ability, fuck up Protoss all you want but please keep your hands of the still RTS-worthy races with this bullshit. Still worse of an economy than standard HotS economy and obviously DH economy. You're wasting your precious beta time by tweaking this. One of the more meaningful changes to make Protoss matchups enjoyable reverted for some dubious reasoning that producing units inside your opponents army should be rewarded. Exactly... to the default one. Speak, to the one that has been critizised all along. Way to go understanding what a responsive unit is blizzard but you are getting there. Show nested quote +Cyclone- Can no longer target air.
- New upgrade: allows Cyclones to target air (fusion core requirement, researched from factory tech lab). 100/100 cost.
yeah, that's not really the problem with the cyclone. Keep guessing. Hint: high Hitpoints+ high damage + high range + high speed... guess how many other units feature all of those aspects... Show nested quote +Ravager- Weapon period changed from 0.8 to 1.6
- Weapon range reduced from 6 to 4
Good start changing the ravager and you got the right idea saying "Roaches will be better units for cost efficiency, whereas Ravagers are meant to be built in strategic numbers when their ability can prove useful."Now their ability just has to be made useful for a 100/100 unit. Also: JUST REMOVE FORCEFIELD ALREADY Show nested quote +Swarm Host- Cost changed to 200/100/3
- No longer requires to upgrade for flying locusts (flying locusts are enabled from the start)
- Locust health down from 65 to 50
- Swarm hosts can burrow move at 2 speed
Please remove that unit, thanks in advance for your understanding. This is beginning to become worse than the HotS beta Oracle/MsC debacle...
Agree with this completely. It seems they are stuck in the same mind frame from HOTS. Abilities galore, forcing their ideas in spite of better ones being suggested, transforming mech in to mobile kiting blob, etc. It's just hopeless.
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can someone explain in very simple terms about the Double harvest thing vs the current one? hard to keep up with all these tldr threads with graphs etc etc. lol
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The reaper thing is cool everything else was honestly meh.
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On April 28 2015 09:35 shin_toss wrote:
can someone explain in very simple terms about the Double harvest thing vs the current one? hard to keep up with all these tldr threads with graphs etc etc. lol
It's a system designed to break 16 workers on 1 base = 16 workers on 2 bases so that we no longer have 48 workers on 3 bases = 48 on 4 = 48 on 5.
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Reaper
Interesting stuff that you might as well try out.
Minerals
I dont mind them thoroughly testing their economy before testing the no harvester pairing thing but honestly I will be surprised if they do.-edit- I actually do mind them testing their thing. the worker pairing thing worked i broodwar and I see no reason for it not working now.
Protoss
Baaahhh the more nerfs to warpgate the better..
Adept
The fact that the Adept was released with damage point .4 to begin with speaks loads of the effort blizzard put in to it...
And as long as it is warpable it will never be strong enough to add anything.
Cyclone
BAAADDD CHANGEEEEE Having the Cyclone as an alternative to Thors for AA with mech was the only good thing the cyclone brought.... If this is the direction they are looking with it I rather see them remove it.
Ravager
I wouldnt mind if they removed the ravagers normal attack altogether.
Swarm Host
Just remove this piece of shit unit.
I could go on harping about stuff like space control and shit but everyone already knows about that..
From the changes I have seen so far I just have to accept that blizzard is never going to make starcraft multiplayer as good as I think it could be.. When I buy lotv it will be solely for the singleplayer.
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EPT
