• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:04
CEST 13:04
KST 20:04
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence10Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch0Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups4WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia8Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues29
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
ASL20 General Discussion ASL TICKET LIVE help! :D Soulkey on ASL S20 BW General Discussion NaDa's Body
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group D [ASL20] Ro16 Group C [Megathread] Daily Proleagues BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Borderlands 3 General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
I <=> 9
KrillinFromwales
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1995 users

LotV Economy: Worker Pairing - Page 10

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
Post a Reply
Prev 1 8 9 10 All
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
April 09 2015 00:29 GMT
#181
On April 09 2015 06:16 PharaphobiaSC2 wrote:
No offense to uvantak or anyone else, but I can't get rid of a feeling that people don't want and don't care about the new things which LotV can bring, all you guys want is BW in SC2 just with widescreen res and maybe modern textures. But that's it.

Btw Starbow died for a reason which is not worth to respond , but nice effort for making the game LotBWHD

Aww, common!

We want the SC2 matchmaking as well.
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
April 09 2015 01:40 GMT
#182
On April 09 2015 00:10 Masayume wrote:

* Let Mineral fields run from a range where instead of 4 nodes depleting at a similar time, they deplete one by one. So you could have a 1.7k node, a 1.5k node all the way down to 750 with a total of 12000 still. You will still get more benefits than a player delaying his expansions, but not to the point where they almost lose by default. You can also take more risks like going for a 2 base play or tech-heavy play without having such a severe timer.
* Do the same with Gas geysers, with one having 3000 and the other 2000 as an example.




That is a great solution if simply making all the nodes 1.5k is harmful.
PharaphobiaSC2
Profile Joined November 2014
Czech Republic85 Posts
April 09 2015 11:15 GMT
#183
It was just my feeling I don't need explanation why do you think that they are not doing it. But just imagine scenarion that they would announce something like "Brood War new engine HD blablabla" none of these posts would ever happen....

And maybe thats the reason why none of these changes were never shown or pushed in the sc2 development. Because they don't want to be pushed into copy pasting their own game.

P.S: SC2 matchmaking bringed down certail level of ladder anxienty while on BW u just played custom games and looked on your letter and MMR ...
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11363 Posts
April 09 2015 16:31 GMT
#184
The great thing about the nostalgia argument, is now that SC2 is 5 years old, dismissive SC2 fans can be accused of not listening to arguments due to nostalgia. Because in 2011, the nostalgia thing was thrown into the face of any argument, whereas I had only started playing BW in 2007... which was only 4 years.

An argument should be looked at on its own terms- is it a good idea and would it work in X new game matters much more than guessing a poster's psychological motivation for wanting a feature or guessing Blizzard's motivation for not implementing something.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
starimk
Profile Joined December 2011
106 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-09 17:29:56
April 09 2015 17:06 GMT
#185
I just had another idea: what if instead of reducing individual patches, the mining rate on all patches was altered via timer. If the mineral count of a patch drops to, say 750, a harvester will only be able to collect 3 minerals per trip instead of 5. It would be similar to the way gas depletion in BW worked (except you still wouldn't be able to harvest indefinitely).

This would (theoretically) produce the following results:
-Decaying mineral income for each base, similar to current LotV model. Note that the decayed rate does not affect saturation; 16 workers will still be able to mine out the base efficiently instead of suddenly over-saturating the base.
-Total mineral count per base unchanged; total value of base is not lowered.
-Total time to deplete mineral patch increased; turtling player has a longer window to sustain his economy on fewer bases.
-Assuming a player's current base is already mined to 750 min/patch or lower, taking a new expansion would provide an immediate boost to income without requiring a high number of workers. There is a timing window where each new base has "increased" mineral income before it decays to a lower rate.

The threshold for lowering the mining rate per patch, as well as the mining rates before/after, could be tweaked to optimize the timing window for increased income for taking a new base, as well as the total time to completely mine out a base.
Elldar
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden287 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-10 12:44:35
April 10 2015 12:43 GMT
#186
I think you missed a vital point, why is it important to have more bases? More bases doesn't inherently give more interesting games, it is acquiring and defense of said bases that does. Of course more bases provide more openings to your opponent for harass/pushes which could create such moments however that is uncertain.

Another thought: With this change will big army plays be possible? What made bw great is because it had a wider strategic spectrum and sc2 feels more narrow, and I am afraid that this will encourage just the harassment types of play and we will still have a narrow spectrum of strategies possible.


Ps, what makes the current system bad is that aqcuiring new bases and getting to a point where you have "max" satuartion doesn't take much thought or strategy. You early expand -> makes some units to not die -> take third. While bw were more like you early expanded -> made some units to prevent your opponent from doing some type of strategy or harass -> build up army/tech to defend expansion -> expand. To me the fact that you have max satuaration on three bases isn't the problem the fact that you don't really have to play in a certain way or make strategic choices to get to three bases is.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9396 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-10 13:56:36
April 10 2015 13:38 GMT
#187

Another thought: With this change will big army plays be possible? What made bw great is because it had a wider strategic spectrum and sc2 feels more narrow, and I am afraid that this will encourage just the harassment types of play and we will still have a narrow spectrum of strategies possible.


I think this is an important point. If all you want in a game is more harassplay, then you don't need to touch the econ at all. Instead you just buff harass units.

What you should look for in an econ is an immobile player being spread out all over the map and cost efficeintly battling it out against a mobile player who constantly army trades.
That was what BW TvZ and TvP late game was about and it was awesome. This effect can too an extent be replicated by unit design, but its not as easy as just forcing more bases.

Ps, what makes the current system bad is that aqcuiring new bases and getting to a point where you have "max" satuartion doesn't take much thought or strategy. You early expand -> makes some units to not die -> take third


People need to stay overusing phrases as strategy or decisionmaking/thinking. Each time a change in a game occurs people look at options that are taken away from then and complain about lack of strategy, when in reality they ignore new options and possibliites. (Just look at this ignorant thread from LOL reddit. Riot makes a champion require more skill by adding counterplay and the reddit user complaints about less strategy. http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3229w4/on_the_ryze_qrework_and_the_importance_of_point/ - what about also complaining that with the removal of hardened shield, immortals no longer hardcounters tanks so there is less strategy there? You can go on and on here with this nonsense)

In BW zerg also took lots of bases all the time. Do you call that lack of strategy? No its more complicated than that, and the only thing that is currently changed is that a defensive style isn't viable in the midgame.

While bw were more like you early expanded -> made some units to prevent your opponent from doing some type of strategy or harass -> build up army/tech to defend expansion -> expand.


No it wasn't. BwPvZ = Forge fast expand into corsair 99% of the time. Then you would stay on 2 base for a while. Bw TvZ = 2 base aggression 90%+ of the time w/ bio. Zerg = always took bases really fast (exception ZvZ).
The diference here was that you took bases at very different rate dependant on your gameplay style. The BW economy made it possible for different styles to be viable while LOTV is all about mobility in the midgame.

To me the fact that you have max satuaration on three bases isn't the problem the fact that you don't really have to play in a certain way or make strategic choices to get to three bases is.


People are definitely overfocussing on 3-base max saturation, but income rate does matter. With BW income rate, it resulted in 5 bases > 4 bases > 3 bases > 2 bases.

Hence you could be on 5 to 3 bases as the mobile race against the immobile. This reduced the defenders advantage of the mobile race and thus opened up for aggression in the midgame while the immobile race could invest into aggressive options.

Late game there would also be income-assymetry which meant that the mobile race could make cost ineffective trades against the immobile race in order to break him down.
This effect is what most people who want BW economy focus on. I do, however, think the actual effect here is slightly overrated. In a LOTV economy, it seems unlikely that an immobile player always can have 3-base saturation in the late game, so I do think it can replicate BW in that regard. This means that the real difference is in the midgame.
Uvantak
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Uruguay1381 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-10 20:24:59
April 10 2015 17:05 GMT
#188
On April 09 2015 06:16 PharaphobiaSC2 wrote:
No offense to uvantak or anyone else, but I can't get rid of a feeling that people don't want and don't care about the new things which LotV can bring, all you guys want is BW in SC2 just with widescreen res and maybe modern textures. But that's it.

Btw Starbow died for a reason which is not worth to respond , but nice effort for making the game LotBWHD

I think you completely missed the whole point of the thread.

This is not a thread to claim for a full on BW economy, because BW economy even when it's "better" than the LotV economy it still can be improved upon. This thread is to raise awareness about the problems Worker Pairing brings on the game.

Stop deluding yourself with that "Us vs Them" mentality.


/edit Commas and stuff.
@Kantuva | Mapmaker | KTVMaps.wordpress.com | Check my profile to see my TL map threads, and you can search for KTV in the Custom Games section to play them.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
April 19 2015 20:39 GMT
#189
--- Nuked ---
Prev 1 8 9 10 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Map Test Tournament
11:00
$450 3v3 Open Cup
WardiTV16
LiquipediaDiscussion
RSL Revival
10:00
Season 2: Playoffs Day 5
Maru vs ReynorLIVE!
Cure vs TriGGeR
Tasteless793
Crank 590
IndyStarCraft 134
CranKy Ducklings96
Rex80
3DClanTV 65
IntoTheiNu 30
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Tasteless 793
Crank 590
IndyStarCraft 134
Rex 80
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 7962
Bisu 1296
Horang2 694
Hyuk 470
actioN 320
Stork 315
ZerO 238
Pusan 207
EffOrt 177
Mini 174
[ Show more ]
Snow 167
Hyun 154
Light 133
Last 131
Soma 128
Britney 92
ggaemo 82
Liquid`Ret 70
Soulkey 68
sorry 60
Mind 56
ToSsGirL 54
hero 34
Sharp 32
HiyA 31
Free 30
Rush 19
Terrorterran 17
scan(afreeca) 16
Sexy 14
SilentControl 12
JYJ7
sas.Sziky 6
Icarus 2
Dota 2
singsing2518
XcaliburYe152
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1667
shoxiejesuss565
x6flipin498
edward25
Other Games
DeMusliM167
B2W.Neo122
XaKoH 118
Pyrionflax91
NeuroSwarm53
Trikslyr10
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 786
CasterMuse 3
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1548
Other Games
• WagamamaTV186
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
1h 56m
RSL Revival
22h 56m
Zoun vs Classic
Korean StarCraft League
1d 15h
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
1d 20h
RSL Revival
1d 22h
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Online Event
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
LiuLi Cup
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-10
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.