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Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
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- The Tribunal
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Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
Patch 9.22: Live on Nov. 06, 2019
Team Fight Tactics Patch 9.22 Live on Nov. 06, 2019
Senna, The Redeemer, will be released on this patch. For more information:
Champion Trailer
Universe Hub
Champion Insights
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
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I've always wondered why riot nerfs the problematic aspects of a given champion only when everything else fails, like are these the issues with Zayah, Kaisa and Blitz, especially Blitz, how many times you said to yourself omg Blitz landed a Q on me, the damage will hurt a lot...good that they removed 20 from it...Also the Kaisa and Zayah nerfs will be noticed, but were these really the issues ?
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With Kai’sa I would say yes her damage with isolation q was too much, but I would have tried flagging the attacks as aoe first. This is maybe sufficient but the Q interaction with manamune and the spell vamp mastery are the real problems imo.
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hmmm I guess we can't play yet ? nothing work in my client :\
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On November 07 2019 07:03 FaCE_1 wrote:
hmmm I guess we can't play yet ? nothing work in my client :\
yeah not working for me either rip
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On November 07 2019 04:34 Slusher wrote:
With Kai’sa I would say yes her damage with isolation q was too much, but I would have tried flagging the attacks as aoe first. This is maybe sufficient but the Q interaction with manamune and the spell vamp mastery are the real problems imo.
It is already flagged as AoE. It was only on PBE it had a single patch cycle where it could proc Manamune.
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On November 07 2019 03:42 M2 wrote:
I've always wondered why riot nerfs the problematic aspects of a given champion only when everything else fails, like are these the issues with Zayah, Kaisa and Blitz, especially Blitz, how many times you said to yourself omg Blitz landed a Q on me, the damage will hurt a lot...good that they removed 20 from it...Also the Kaisa and Zayah nerfs will be noticed, but were these really the issues ?
Because muh 'champion identity'.
Heavy Xayah lategame nerfs but only moderate Kai'Sa nerf, this will not remove either from the meta but probably means more Kai'Sa in pro play.
Not much of a patch, surprised Ashe/Naut/Malph are getting nerfed, they have their strengths but also major weaknesses. Kayle and Panth getting hammered again though, which is good.
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On November 07 2019 03:42 M2 wrote:
I've always wondered why riot nerfs the problematic aspects of a given champion only when everything else fails, like are these the issues with Zayah, Kaisa and Blitz, especially Blitz, how many times you said to yourself omg Blitz landed a Q on me, the damage will hurt a lot...good that they removed 20 from it...Also the Kaisa and Zayah nerfs will be noticed, but were these really the issues ?
I feel like they are going to have to remake blitz. Its sad, but a reality given their balancing philosophy. They keep reducing wards, which makes hooks brutal. They also have pushed the game more towards early game so you can't just keep murdering his laning, which is how you always are supposed to deal with blitz: push him in and force him to stay in lane. If you do that he's just a potato until laning phase ends, and by then most games are mostly over if your botlane blitz got 0 kills and lost 4 plates.
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Disagree, Blitz is like Thresh/Pyke, mid/late good hook on a priority champ will hard win games, even when you're fairly behind. If you're so far behind that hooks like that aren't enough, then it's probably not just the Blitz pick which lost you the game, every other lane must've lost as well or your team had some bad team fights.
Imo true weakness of Blitz is that if he doesn't hit those hooks, then he's useless. Hence why you pointed out that pushing him in is a good strategy. A good Blitz like Ming is scary asf to play against.
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On November 10 2019 19:58 DarkCore wrote:
Disagree, Blitz is like Thresh/Pyke, mid/late good hook on a priority champ will hard win games, even when you're fairly behind. If you're so far behind that hooks like that aren't enough, then it's probably not just the Blitz pick which lost you the game, every other lane must've lost as well or your team had some bad team fights.
Imo true weakness of Blitz is that if he doesn't hit those hooks, then he's useless. Hence why you pointed out that pushing him in is a good strategy. A good Blitz like Ming is scary asf to play against.
I feel like you said the same thing, just with a positive spin.
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It is very similar, hence I said your point is valid. I just generalized it to be about his hook mechanic being feast/famine rather than just the laning phase. Also, you made it sound like shutting him down in lane is how he's countered, which I think is the opposite of why people like Ming play him: a game changing hook can hard swing games back in your favour. The real way to beat him is to not let him get hooks, which encompasses pushing him in during the laning phase.
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Played a few games against Senna and another few with her on my team and my impressions are (note that I had no idea about how her passive works) that:
- she does a lot of damage early but is kind of useless later
- the shroud isn't that good or people dont know how to utilize it properly
- this applies to all new and reworked champions, but Senna is probably much better than her win rate would suggest, as most of the Senna players I played with were more focused on testing the champ / having fun with her than on winning.
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My thoughts are that ultimately support builds will be the right call because, like you said, it feels like you don't have a lot of damage. I've liked Duskblade or Ghostblade into Ardent/Redemption. In teamfights, you can ult to give everyone shields and the Ardent passive which is a game changer in teamfights.
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I can’t help but think pen will be considered bad once things sort out, her heal scales off bonus ad, and I think that matters a lot. I think if any non support items are good it’s probably like ie/ga + the support items
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Looks like people are all right with Senna, she is neither banned nor picked too much and she doesnt really feel op or useless. Objectively, she might be kind of strong, but even if this is true, she does not feel unfair, similar to Ashe who had 55% win rate for so long, but only few people complained, because, when Ashe kills you, you feel like you still had a fighting chance, not like with Akali or Irelia where there was nothing you can do.
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I think the ghoul form is going to be sleeper OP as fuck. If you can manage to trigger the passive for even a second in a team fight, you have 3-5 members of your team untargetable. It doesn't sound like much, but in the chaos of a messy teamfight, sometimes the single second no one can be targeted can change the fight
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I was browsing top 100 challger supports on op.gg to try to get an idea of how good Senna is, what good builds are. Most of them have completely given up on her, but Shady seems to be doing the best, he only goes leathality items. Not much else to add, the people who have tried hybrid/support builds have fed on her with both but I didn’t find any examples of support build doing well (statistically) outside of Aphro in a d4 game.
Ie has a hilariously low win rate on her which I find surprising since she has free crit chance and scales off bonus ad. Not sure why that is.
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On November 15 2019 05:13 Slusher wrote:
I was browsing top 100 challger supports on op.gg to try to get an idea of how good Senna is, what good builds are. Most of them have completely given up on her, but Shady seems to be doing the best, he only goes leathality items. Not much else to add, the people who have tried hybrid/support builds have fed on her with both but I didn’t find any examples of support build doing well (statistically) outside of Aphro in a d4 game.
Ie has a hilariously low win rate on her which I find surprising since she has free crit chance and scales off bonus ad. Not sure why that is.
I'd assume it's because it's ludicrously expensive on a support budget, and a 20 minute IE is a whole lot less scary than a 12 minute IE.
Hard to pivot into other items as well if you do go for IE, as once you've gotten the BF or even the crit cloak, your options are basically ER or IE.
IE definitely feels like a win more option to me. Stacking long swords and even a dirk into something else doesn't feel anywhere close to as bad as BF into something else IMO.
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On November 15 2019 11:13 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2019 05:13 Slusher wrote:
I was browsing top 100 challger supports on op.gg to try to get an idea of how good Senna is, what good builds are. Most of them have completely given up on her, but Shady seems to be doing the best, he only goes leathality items. Not much else to add, the people who have tried hybrid/support builds have fed on her with both but I didn’t find any examples of support build doing well (statistically) outside of Aphro in a d4 game.
Ie has a hilariously low win rate on her which I find surprising since she has free crit chance and scales off bonus ad. Not sure why that is. I'd assume it's because it's ludicrously expensive on a support budget, and a 20 minute IE is a whole lot less scary than a 12 minute IE. Hard to pivot into other items as well if you do go for IE, as once you've gotten the BF or even the crit cloak, your options are basically ER or IE. IE definitely feels like a win more option to me. Stacking long swords and even a dirk into something else doesn't feel anywhere close to as bad as BF into something else IMO.
100% What I was thinking. I actually think Senna would be pretty OP if she had access to itemization on par with things like Frostfang series, ardent senser, twin shadows, or even rylias.
Zyra builds Spelthief (no AD equiv) into FF (850) and sorc boots (1100) 1950 total. This is cheaper than Dblade (450), reg boots (300) and BF Sword (1300) 2050 total. And is more effective at all points up to that point (and is making you money). If we got an AD support item (which I have wanted since the beginning of GP5 items as it will make for fun madness) in the next season, she will need to be nerfed AF. Obviously also some others would need nerfs as well. Pyke, Ashe, Cait (maybe), Kindred (maybe), Urgot (probably, but dont we all think support is where urgot belongs?).
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Senna is designed with the AD support items in mind, which are not coming next season, but in few days, however, the ap items have always been way more stronger, cost efficient, better, superior with better actives and passives than both the AD and the Tank items, so I am not sure how an AD damage support will be able to keep up with the AP damage supports, providing that they cannot generate money fast, which will make the items gap even more noticeable.
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EPT
