EPT[Patch 8.12] Shield Champ Nerfs General Discussion - Page 2
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 14 2018 01:18 DarkCore wrote: True, I was thinking the same when I wrote the sentence, but the difference between Yi and other hard carries is that they often have clear weaknesses in either laning or team fighting. The whole point of Taric Yi is that you can't really stop him from farming, and that they hard carry team fights because no one in the game can last more than 5 seconds vs a lategame Yi. And that said lategame starts at the 15 minute mark if you just let him sit and farm. Teams have to be extremely proactive against him, and that involves risky play, because Yi already roflstomps at lv 6 if he gets to AA for a few seconds. Basically, Yi comes online too early imo. The strategy isn't invincible, it can be beaten, but it feels super oppressive to play against, like the worst days of Juggermaw. Eh. In the BBQ game, for instance, he came online early because there one team hard committed to Nunu-Karthus who only have slows, which Yi hardcounters. Then they just took a 2v2 in River and got rolled. If you have Sej-Syndra instead you can control Yi. They did in one fight where Gragas was in position and basically solo-contolled him. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
I'll admit, the odds are more likely that this is just Riot not knowing how to balance stuff and they're equally as lost as the rest of us with all this fiesta going on, but let me play devil's advocate here for a moment. The other MOBA has been steadily growing in popularity the past few years due to a variety of reasons, but the following three things are why it's been so successful: 1. Simplifying the math behind the scenes (removal of generic stat increases past level 18) 2. Widening the pool of viable characters to play as in all rolls/positions (compared to LoL who had ~30 champions who were always viable and the rest were trash) 3. Improving flexibility of characters to fit different rolls based on items built, farm allocation, and level growth priority League's been slowly doing these things the past year or so, and these past couple patches are when we are starting to realize that it's no longer TOP - Jungle - Mid - ADC - Support, but a change over to farm allocation priority, from Position 5 (usually the support) to Position 1 (the person who gets the most gold on the map because they give their team the best chance to win the game). | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 14 2018 06:45 Kinie wrote: I wonder if these changes taking place are less about Riot not knowing what to balance, and more like them trying to turn League into that other MOBA on the market (where our TL counterpart is much more successful than LoL TL). I'll admit, the odds are more likely that this is just Riot not knowing how to balance stuff and they're equally as lost as the rest of us with all this fiesta going on, but let me play devil's advocate here for a moment. The other MOBA has been steadily growing in popularity the past few years due to a variety of reasons, but the following three things are why it's been so successful: 1. Simplifying the math behind the scenes (removal of generic stat increases past level 18) 2. Widening the pool of viable characters to play as in all rolls/positions (compared to LoL who had ~30 champions who were always viable and the rest were trash) 3. Improving flexibility of characters to fit different rolls based on items built, farm allocation, and level growth priority League's been slowly doing these things the past year or so, and these past couple patches are when we are starting to realize that it's no longer TOP - Jungle - Mid - ADC - Support, but a change over to farm allocation priority, from Position 5 (usually the support) to Position 1 (the person who gets the most gold on the map because they give their team the best chance to win the game). Maybe, but it would be a total 180 from their usual hate of different power curves. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On June 14 2018 06:45 Kinie wrote: I wonder if these changes taking place are less about Riot not knowing what to balance, and more like them trying to turn League into that other MOBA on the market (where our TL counterpart is much more successful than LoL TL). I'll admit, the odds are more likely that this is just Riot not knowing how to balance stuff and they're equally as lost as the rest of us with all this fiesta going on, but let me play devil's advocate here for a moment. The other MOBA has been steadily growing in popularity the past few years due to a variety of reasons, but the following three things are why it's been so successful: 1. Simplifying the math behind the scenes (removal of generic stat increases past level 18) 2. Widening the pool of viable characters to play as in all rolls/positions (compared to LoL who had ~30 champions who were always viable and the rest were trash) 3. Improving flexibility of characters to fit different rolls based on items built, farm allocation, and level growth priority League's been slowly doing these things the past year or so, and these past couple patches are when we are starting to realize that it's no longer TOP - Jungle - Mid - ADC - Support, but a change over to farm allocation priority, from Position 5 (usually the support) to Position 1 (the person who gets the most gold on the map because they give their team the best chance to win the game). To be fair, if Korea cared as much about that other Moba, they'd be dominating that one too. | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
On June 14 2018 07:38 Gahlo wrote: To be fair, if Korea cared as much about that other Moba, they'd be dominating that one too. I think the reason why Korea doesn't care as much about the other MOBA is because of the DPC, and the overall torrent of international competitions compared to League. It's a lot cheaper to only have to worry about flying a team + support staff around once or twice a year compared to once or twice a month. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
Don't think Riot is trying to copy other Moba, at least not directly. Their longevity plan has always revolved around the game constantly evolving, for better or worse, keeping it fresh and addictive so people don't leave. But we're in S8 now, and there are certain parts of the game that have been around for so long, they've basically become fundamental to the game. There is a limit to how many metas you can create without touching these things, and we've basically gone through all of them. Assassin, tank, shields, hypercarries, BC, TF etc. So Riot decided they would go for a big change, which is the complete rework of ADC. Idk if their intention was to remove the role from viability or try to increase diversity, who knows. You can also argue they have no clue how to balance the game, but I really think it's because their priority is keeping the player base hooked, and that isn't tied to balance funnily enough. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4186 Posts
On June 15 2018 02:01 DarkCore wrote: Yeah, LoL is big in KR because it filled the void after SC, SCII didn't manage to do it and everyone was looking for a new game. Don't think Riot is trying to copy other Moba, at least not directly. Their longevity plan has always revolved around the game constantly evolving, for better or worse, keeping it fresh and addictive so people don't leave. But we're in S8 now, and there are certain parts of the game that have been around for so long, they've basically become fundamental to the game. There is a limit to how many metas you can create without touching these things, and we've basically gone through all of them. Assassin, tank, shields, hypercarries, BC, TF etc. So Riot decided they would go for a big change, which is the complete rework of ADC. Idk if their intention was to remove the role from viability or try to increase diversity, who knows. You can also argue they have no clue how to balance the game, but I really think it's because their priority is keeping the player base hooked, and that isn't tied to balance funnily enough. Yeah I support your opinion, if they wanted the game balanced they would've had it already, they could hire a group of challenger/pro players and they would have done it in a spam of several patches probably. Riot just wants to constantly change things like as we know even a new ranked is coming soon | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On June 15 2018 03:45 M2 wrote: Yeah I support your opinion, if they wanted the game balanced they would've had it already, they could hire a group of challenger/pro players and they would have done it in a spam of several patches probably. Riot just wants to constantly change things like as we know even a new ranked is coming soon What does balanced mean? Full roster viable? They couldn't do that at a drop of a hat. Strategic viability? Also difficult to achieve. You have to define what you mean by balanced before you begin to say how easy it is to balance. Even among those "pro/challenger" players you may find their own definitions of balanced are different. So what do you do then? Whose vision do you try strive for? If you look at it from the strictest sense of the word league is always balanced and never balanced at the same time. You always have a fair chance of winning regardless of what Riot do before the game starts but your decisions and the decisions of your teammates can make the actual game imbalanced. So Riot never has to do anything to achieve balance at the end of the day. Really what people mean by balance is "this isn't the experience I want". That's fine but pretending that it's simple is silly | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8937 Posts
the point though, is that its clear riot isnt making a genuine effort to make lol the "best" competitve moba title. their success in the esports scene is due to luck (or great timing). their success within the casual playerbase is to their credit but should not be mistaken as a sign that they know what theyre doing in the competitive scene. they dont, or more likely, they dont care. i dont believe its possible to balance a moba to the point where it requires zero input by the developer like scbw. however as far as balancing a moba goes, icefrog has done it so much better throughout the entire history of dota (for as long as icefrog was the developer). | ||
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Embir
Poland567 Posts
On June 14 2018 08:04 Slusher wrote: More likely just lucky timing by Riot, game came out while sc2 was not as popular and blizz was still blocking be from being broadcast. Not luck, LoL is just a really good game with enormous casual appeal. And casual appeal is one of the most important things if you want to have succesfull e-sport title. People like to watch games that they play themselves - that is the thing Blizzard never understood with SC2. Blizzard, instead of balancing SC2 around majority of players, focused on group of several Korean pros, and the results are clearly visible - LoL is one of the biggest e-sport brands, meanwhile major tournaments of SC2 can't even garner a fraction of LoL streamers viewership. I tried DotA and hated it, despite the fact that I stopped playing SC2 and was searching for new game to focus. On the contrary LoL caught my attention instantly - there is something magical in this game that makes you want to play it and play it even after all those years. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4186 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8937 Posts
On June 15 2018 18:07 Embir wrote: Not luck, LoL is just a really good game with enormous casual appeal. And casual appeal is one of the most important things if you want to have succesfull e-sport title. People like to watch games that they play themselves - that is the thing Blizzard never understood with SC2. Blizzard, instead of balancing SC2 around majority of players, focused on group of several Korean pros, and the results are clearly visible - LoL is one of the biggest e-sport brands, meanwhile major tournaments of SC2 can't even garner a fraction of LoL streamers viewership. I tried DotA and hated it, despite the fact that I stopped playing SC2 and was searching for new game to focus. On the contrary LoL caught my attention instantly - there is something magical in this game that makes you want to play it and play it even after all those years. the reason sc2 failed is because korea was still salty about the way brood war ended. they dumpstered a great game to make something that started off broken and hard to follow, since no one even played sc2 when the pros made the initial switch. as for dota, you hating it is in no way an indication that lol is a "really good game". it has enormous casual appeal sure, but contrary to what you believe, that casual approach is the very reason balance is never stable in the competitive scene. i have not even a shadow of a doubt that had valve entered the korean market before riot, league would have met the same fate as hon. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4186 Posts
The reason I wrote this story is because I think that this is what made league so successful. 10 out of 11 people are attracted to this game, it gives them the competitive feeling in playing a game, without putting competitive efforts in it. 10 out of 11 people dont want to put the effort but all 11 want the competitive feel when they play, something like that, just my 2 cents. | ||
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Embir
Poland567 Posts
On June 15 2018 18:58 evilfatsh1t wrote: the reason sc2 failed is because korea was still salty about the way brood war ended. they dumpstered a great game to make something that started off broken and hard to follow, since no one even played sc2 when the pros made the initial switch. as for dota, you hating it is in no way an indication that lol is a "really good game". it has enormous casual appeal sure, but contrary to what you believe, that casual approach is the very reason balance is never stable in the competitive scene. i have not even a shadow of a doubt that had valve entered the korean market before riot, league would have met the same fate as hon. If SC2 had casual appeal no one would care if Koreans liked it or not. Game would be worldwide popular. As it stands SC2 exploded in popularity at the begining (you can say today's Twitch is a child of SC2) and then quickly faded - game was too hard, some stupid interface solutions were kept to artificially maintain skill requirement (why can't I have resoures indicators right above the minimap?) and game was constantly balanced only around the highest level of play, with completely disregard for casual player. Effect is clearly visible - detoriorating pool of casual players means detoriorating pool of viewers. DotA as "brand" was already before LoL which was shameless clone of original DotA - and yet, despite this fact, LoL held it's first place spot. And the reason is casual appeal and elusive magic of this game. Discussion about which one of those games is better makes no sense because there is no definition of "really good game". And clearly for a lot of e-sport viewers LoL is a really good game. Streams numbers don't lie. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5232 Posts
It's also why I still prefer to view SC:BW over SCII, the graphics and how the game is played out are so much more appealing. Oversaturation, and/or cartoonization of graphics does loads for viewer experience. I loathe viewing competitive fps, even when I was an avid QIIIA player, because it feels so boring and messy. I like some overview and brood war and LoL bring that (almost) perfect experience for me. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8937 Posts
there is a distinction between the two and although riot would claim credit for both, they only succeeded with the former and they lucked out on the latter. if blizzard only wanted sc2 to perform in sales then we could say that they completely failed. however it is pretty obvious blizzard wanted sc2 to be more than just a cash cow, they wanted it to be the successor to the father of the korean progaming scene. this should be the metric by which we judge whether blizzard failed with sc2 or not; by looking at what their intention for the game would have been. blizzard wanted a serious rpg esport title and they developed the game towards that direction, and they failed because the korean audience preferred brood war and the trend for games shifted from rpg to mobas. lols success in the competitive scene comes from the korean market. do you think koreans know that lol had a predecessor? do you think koreans even know dota exists? the answer is only very few. koreans didnt choose lol because it was better than dota, they chose lol because it was the first game available of the 2. if we assume that dota was a major title in korea alongside lol, do you really think lol would survive? whether casuals care or not, these games are only able to maintain their positions in e-sports as behemoths if they are viable in the competitive scene and generate revenue for interested parties. if you compare the state of both scenes, assuming korean infrastructure could support both, dota would definitely be the more interesting game for any team sponsor or player. dota fulfils its role as an esport title far better than lol does, therefore the game can be seen as more stable and attractive from the perspective of sponsors and pros. riot would have lost that competition against valve unless they changed their entire design and balance philosophy to match valve's and develop the game with a more competitive focus. On June 15 2018 19:44 Uldridge wrote: For me, LoL is also a vastly superior spectating game over Dota. Visually it's more engaging, the map is smaller, the skills are more straightforward and at the heart of it, LoL is more a fighting game than a strategic one, where I feel Dota is the opposite? Granted I haven't seen much Dota so I could be wrong here.. It's also why I still prefer to view SC:BW over SCII, the graphics and how the game is played out are so much more appealing. Oversaturation, and/or cartoonization of graphics does loads for viewer experience. I loathe viewing competitive fps, even when I was an avid QIIIA player, because it feels so boring and messy. I like some overview and brood war and LoL bring that (almost) perfect experience for me. i think comparing spectator experiences is overrated. the truth is, people prefer to spectate whatever game they play or have more interest in. naturally a league player will say that league is better to watch, whilst dota players will argue that dota is better. i personally play (or played. havent played dota a long time) both games, and dota is by far more interesting to watch because the quality of the games at pro level is better. by quality i dont mean faker outplay-esque hype moments, i mean the strategic depth that is on display. when you reach a point where you understand the balance of the games and you can appreciate what the pros are doing, visual aesthetics dont mean anything for me. | ||
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