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On June 10 2016 03:19 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2016 02:24 MuddyJam wrote:
edit @iCandada
While your right the loops I was thinking of immediate ones like "i should of flashed" "i fail flashed" "I missed my skillshot". Things like gank timings and having the lane positioned badly and roaming are not trivial things. I mean... Support players have skillshots and flash too... I don't understand your point. Its fine if you don't like playing support, but stop trying to make up broad overarching theories on why people don't play support. Most people just have this overwhelming urge to be the one killing things. That is why people play garbage like Yasuo top or Vayne and then feed horribly when they could just pick Maokai or Sivir and get hard carried for being around and useful.
that would be because I was wrong on the closed loops thing  . I'm theorising why support is not popular. It has never been popular. Its no different to wondering what makes video game A a good one and why people don't enjoy playing game B.
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On June 09 2016 23:48 DarkCore wrote:You can carry with support at any elo, pick carry supports in lower elos if you feel you have no impact/don't trust your ADC. Someone like Karma, Brand, Zyra are dope when played properly, you can snowball so hard if the opponent has no clue how to lane against them. It's not uncommon for Brand and Zyra support to have most damage in the game. Support itemization is good right now. People brought it up already, but items in S2 for supports were atrocious, Righteous Glory and yellow Supp item are much, much better designed than something like Shurelyas, from build path to stats.Items with mana regen and CD but no offensive stats for Janna and friends. Which we kind of already have in the form of Talisman and Mikaels. But the same doesn't apply to tanky initiators like Braum or Leona, those champs like to build tank items, and I can't really see items being designed for them that would not be good for tanks as well. Dunno why you think supports are not in a good state, I find them to be doing great. Build paths are quite variable, if played right you can have a big impact on the game, and viability is diverse. I do have to agree though that support in team builder is disgusting, I actually used to play support as my second role but I don't want to play it 9/10 games. Now I just queue ADC/mid, win 60% of my ADC games and ~45% of my mid games because I suck at the role compared to my MMR and get by with that, with occasional support sprees.
What? Shurelias is arguably the best build order, stats, and active combination on an item since the brokenness of S1 and beta nonsense.
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Yeah.
Like I said, its the same reason people play garbage like Yasuo and Vayne. They'd rather hard carry 1 game out of 5, be genuinely a non-factor in one other win then lose the remaining three games than just generally be useful and win 3 games out of 5.
Ironically I think most of those champs are actually more team reliant than the average champ because you need your team to draft you enablers and to support you through the moments where you aren't that strong.
Or instead of Vayne you could pick Sivir and just be strong and useful (waveclear, ult engage, Spellshield) all the time no matter what, even if you some reason you losing lane hard and are hung out to dry, while having a similarly strong if not stronger late game. But Vayne's strength is the obvious shredding and flashy outplays, where as Sivirs strength is pressing the go button and sneakily doing damage to things the player isn't paying attention to with Boomerang Blade crits.
It is silly, imo.
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Well, I think Sivir is really fun. She's like the Olaf of botlane.
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On June 10 2016 03:25 MuddyJam wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2016 03:19 iCanada wrote:On June 10 2016 02:24 MuddyJam wrote:
edit @iCandada
While your right the loops I was thinking of immediate ones like "i should of flashed" "i fail flashed" "I missed my skillshot". Things like gank timings and having the lane positioned badly and roaming are not trivial things. I mean... Support players have skillshots and flash too... I don't understand your point. Its fine if you don't like playing support, but stop trying to make up broad overarching theories on why people don't play support. Most people just have this overwhelming urge to be the one killing things. That is why people play garbage like Yasuo top or Vayne and then feed horribly when they could just pick Maokai or Sivir and get hard carried for being around and useful. that would be because I was wrong on the closed loops thing . I'm theorising why support is not popular. It has never been popular. Its no different to wondering what makes video game A a good one and why people don't enjoy playing game B.
Support is not popular because people like to do damage. Its the same reason why lots of people play carry tops even when tanks were super strong. Its the same reason why people play Yasuo and Vayne even though they suck on those champions and those champions kinda suck(in most compositions).
Secondary considerations might be a more concrete evaluation of performance. They can see they did well when they have high CS and high kills. But you can't always see that on support. They can check how they're doing against the competition by looking at the scoreboard. Its a lot harder to do that on support even if you enable every play.
You really can't make support more rewarding to those people without basically breaking the game. Which is fine for me. I main support and am quite happy with it (and my short queue times trololol). But then again, i was happy with it in the "ward bitch" era because well, i was really good at putting up Christmas lights and this made climbing easy.
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I actually really liked supports before the gold income too.
I remember building just wards and 3 dorans items and just shitting on item and a half ADC's with Lulu when she first came out. Man Lulu did so much damage back then.
If you actually just didn't troll and bought 48327432 wards it was so easy to climb in those days.
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that and running in 4 people getting exhausted and dying every teamfight
building no hp on irelia didn't make sense either its not cost efficient at all and you don't need max cdr to die in 4 seconds
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On June 10 2016 03:58 iCanada wrote:
But Vayne's strength is the obvious shredding and flashy outplays
To me the biggest strength of Vayne is how she handcuffs the opposing support to lane. (Although i know this wasn't your point )
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The biggest strength of vayne is that when that fucking tank runs in your general direction you can right click him and actually do damage. Vayne is like the great equalizer for ad players who get tilted from getting killed by fucking everything all the time.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On June 10 2016 03:26 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 23:48 DarkCore wrote:You can carry with support at any elo, pick carry supports in lower elos if you feel you have no impact/don't trust your ADC. Someone like Karma, Brand, Zyra are dope when played properly, you can snowball so hard if the opponent has no clue how to lane against them. It's not uncommon for Brand and Zyra support to have most damage in the game. Support itemization is good right now. People brought it up already, but items in S2 for supports were atrocious, Righteous Glory and yellow Supp item are much, much better designed than something like Shurelyas, from build path to stats.What stats are relevant to supports and not relevant to anyone else Items with mana regen and CD but no offensive stats for Janna and friends. Which we kind of already have in the form of Talisman and Mikaels. But the same doesn't apply to tanky initiators like Braum or Leona, those champs like to build tank items, and I can't really see items being designed for them that would not be good for tanks as well. Dunno why you think supports are not in a good state, I find them to be doing great. Build paths are quite variable, if played right you can have a big impact on the game, and viability is diverse. I do have to agree though that support in team builder is disgusting, I actually used to play support as my second role but I don't want to play it 9/10 games. Now I just queue ADC/mid, win 60% of my ADC games and ~45% of my mid games because I suck at the role compared to my MMR and get by with that, with occasional support sprees. What? Shurelias is arguably the best build order, stats, and active combination on an item since the brokenness of S1 and beta nonsense.
Yeah, I mean thats why teams were getting them in amounts that would warrant a multibuy discount if it were virtually any real life object
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best item was always aegis anyway
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I'm curious about Ashe. This is a champ that according to champion.gg, is below average for an ADC in gold, kills, damage, and deaths (i.e., dies a lot): http://champion.gg/champion/Ashe
But she somehow still has an incredible winrate. Compare to say, MF, who has a high winrate but also high stats across the board, and it makes you ask, how is Ashe winning games? I guess it must just be her ult/utility?
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i think of ashe as a poor mans adc version of azir
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Ashe still has a use when behind, and that is hitting that ult and slowing everyone. She can die, but if she gets her ult off on the most fed carry then it breaks even. Although I too am surprised by the stats.
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On June 10 2016 13:17 GrandInquisitor wrote:I'm curious about Ashe. This is a champ that according to champion.gg, is below average for an ADC in gold, kills, damage, and deaths (i.e., dies a lot): http://champion.gg/champion/AsheBut she somehow still has an incredible winrate. Compare to say, MF, who has a high winrate but also high stats across the board, and it makes you ask, how is Ashe winning games? I guess it must just be her ult/utility?
Most people are very bad at ad. The ad champs that have skills that make them useful without being good are the highest winrate. Shocked. I wonder why most people who aren't retards have been telling everyone to just play mf/ashe/sivir when they have to ad unless they are really good for years now...
The only exception is twitch. He is hard to play vs good teams but easy to abuse baddies with.
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On June 10 2016 10:11 St3MoR wrote:
best item was always aegis anyway
Runic Bulwark hype!
I miss the Bulwark + Locket jungle meta.
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On June 10 2016 18:45 Gahlo wrote:Runic Bulwark hype! I miss the Bulwark + Locket jungle meta.
Pssh. I miss the Double Gp5 jungle meta. Somehow Shyvana, Maokai, Lee Sin, Cho Gath, Skarner and Mundo could all coexist on a single patch.
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On June 10 2016 13:17 GrandInquisitor wrote:I'm curious about Ashe. This is a champ that according to champion.gg, is below average for an ADC in gold, kills, damage, and deaths (i.e., dies a lot): http://champion.gg/champion/AsheBut she somehow still has an incredible winrate. Compare to say, MF, who has a high winrate but also high stats across the board, and it makes you ask, how is Ashe winning games? I guess it must just be her ult/utility?
theres this spell called ashe arrow
its pretty good
i mean she also does a ton of damage by just right clicking which makes her useful later even if she's feeding and on low gold
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EPT
