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On June 09 2016 15:36 Slusher wrote:
The biggest problem with support right now isn't the role itself, but opening yourself up to the role as a possibility gives you a sub 20% chance of getting your main role.
It would 100% be my secondary role if it was 50/50 with mid, but I think they said the actual statistic in that roundtable video they did was 16% main role when sup secondary. (which is higher then I would have guessed based on anecdotal experience)
Definitely. I'd be happy even if it was like 40/60 not support-support. But because I can go 10 games without getting my supposed primary role, I'll sometimes opt out of support with one role I don't play much simply for a breath of fresh air.
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Don't give supports more gold, give them decent items for the budget so they can still build stuff without needing inflated gold sources or to end up with a deathcap and 300 AP.
That's what made Shurelya's good: sure it wasn't a crapton of stats and didn't turn you into a carry, but for a small amount of gold you had relevant stats and excellent utility through the active.
Reduce the stats on Glory then make it cost like 2k gold with a smooth build path, or something along these lines.
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@Jek
yeah I guess they do have nicer champs than they used to. Worth noting thresh/bard/braum are the newest supports released.
But it doesn't change that if your not high elo then support doesn't exist as is more of a team mascot that race each other to go 0/10. Like if you are a smuck player it makes no sense to ever go support. Dunno just feel support needs a new or added mechanic. Kinda like how tp makes top lane more interesting. Riot changed jungle heavily with the smite changes maybe they need a support change.
Point is if your a bad player you don't have much of a feedback loop to what is good play. If you a solo lane you can get kills/towers etc. If jungle you can know ganks are good. As bad support its hard for a new player to get feedback on if your warding is good. And the adc at low lvls can do some very wild things which can make it impossible to have any consistency to then learn the game.
Also for learning its good to have these closed feedback loops. If i play cs:go I can see, o I missed alot there I can aim better and its very immediate. If you play most roles in lol you can see if you miss cs and now you can work on that.
Remark: I am not claiming
- support takes no skill
- you can't roflstomp solo que as support
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I threw this idea in the rip solo q thread, but rather than change the support position I think they should try to find a way for people who are ok with supporting to support without locking out their main role. The idea that I threw out was opening up a currency similar to the aram rerolls, any time you play support you get a 'priority token' to get a priority q time for your primary role, give it a cap of 2, maybe 3 with a decay time of 24hrs/token.
For me personally this idea would be perfect, however I do recognize that it is abusable. It will encourage people who don't want to support to pick it simply for the token, leading to troll picks, poor strategical roam timings (read:24/7) or just simply taking their support games less seriously.
I think changing support (in response to bottleneck issues in team builder) before addressing the fact that there are a lot of players who select their secondary as a way to optimize % chance at primary as opposed to what they enjoy playing 2nd most is actually just stupid, and lacking forethought.
I also think the feedback thing makes sense but at the same time it's a cop out, I mean how often do you hear players who aren't climbing (but are trying) complain that they can't figure out why? I feel like the #1 complaint is they don't know why they aren't winning. (blaming teammates counts here, because if thats the "only reason" they don't know why they are losing)
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On June 09 2016 20:26 Slusher wrote:
I also think the feedback thing makes sense but at the same time it's a cop out, I mean how often do you hear players who aren't climbing (but are trying) complain that they can't figure out why? I feel like the #1 complaint is they don't know why they aren't winning. (blaming teammates counts here, because if thats the "only reason" they don't know why they are losing)
Pro tip for life right there if you replace climbing with getting better.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On June 09 2016 17:16 Alaric wrote:
Don't give supports more gold, give them decent items for the budget so they can still build stuff without needing inflated gold sources or to end up with a deathcap and 300 AP.
That's what made Shurelya's good: sure it wasn't a crapton of stats and didn't turn you into a carry, but for a small amount of gold you had relevant stats and excellent utility through the active.
Reduce the stats on Glory then make it cost like 2k gold with a smooth build path, or something along these lines.
Yeah, thats what made shurelyas good and thats what made teams buy 3 shurelyas in 1 game
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That's because it appealed to both tanks (some of which are supports) and caster-oriented supports, with HP/CDR/mp5 in a neat package. I guess I should have said "stats relevant to supports", kinda how HoG and philostone were prevalent but noone picked up Kage's lucky pick.  If the item gives good stats for the cost but doesn't cost that much, once the enemy team gets to ~3 items they'll be starting to have stronger stats because they use their slots better (of course trinkets half-invalidates this because a ward slot isn't a thing anymore).
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
What stats are relevant to supports and not relevant to anyone else
if you want slot efficiency to kick in time you need to make those "op" support items cost like 700-800 gold imo and even then top laners and junglers will probably pick them up
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Sad as it is, the answer may have to come through summoner spell reworks. Just like how the jungle items are tied to smite, you might just need support items tied to a summoner spell that no other lane really wants to take (maybe Exhaust, though lots of mid laners run Exhaust). It wouldn't shock me if in Season 7 or 8 the game simply defines your role by your first summoner spell. Smite = Jungle; Heal = ADC; Exhaust = Support; Teleport/Ignite = Top/Mid. That's sort of what happens right now anyway, the occasional Ignite Support / Exhaust Mid notwithstanding.
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You can carry with support at any elo, pick carry supports in lower elos if you feel you have no impact/don't trust your ADC. Someone like Karma, Brand, Zyra are dope when played properly, you can snowball so hard if the opponent has no clue how to lane against them. It's not uncommon for Brand and Zyra support to have most damage in the game.
Support itemization is good right now. People brought it up already, but items in S2 for supports were atrocious, Righteous Glory and yellow Supp item are much, much better designed than something like Shurelyas, from build path to stats.
What stats are relevant to supports and not relevant to anyone else
Items with mana regen and CD but no offensive stats for Janna and friends. Which we kind of already have in the form of Talisman and Mikaels. But the same doesn't apply to tanky initiators like Braum or Leona, those champs like to build tank items, and I can't really see items being designed for them that would not be good for tanks as well.
Dunno why you think supports are not in a good state, I find them to be doing great. Build paths are quite variable, if played right you can have a big impact on the game, and viability is diverse. I do have to agree though that support in team builder is disgusting, I actually used to play support as my second role but I don't want to play it 9/10 games. Now I just queue ADC/mid, win 60% of my ADC games and ~45% of my mid games because I suck at the role compared to my MMR and get by with that, with occasional support sprees.
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On June 09 2016 23:48 DarkCore wrote:
You can carry with support at any elo, pick carry supports in lower elos if you feel you have no impact/don't trust your ADC. Someone like Karma, Brand, Zyra are dope when played properly, you can snowball so hard if the opponent has no clue how to lane against them. It's not uncommon for Brand and Zyra support to have most damage in the game.
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Nobody in this whole thread has claimed you can't carry as support. Nobody is claiming you can't or its hard to get out of low elo if you are support. What i am arguing is from a game design standpoint is supports design is terrible. Please don't derail discussion, if you don't understand them then ask.
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How come Zyra, Karma, etc. are becoming popular now over Braum, Alistar, etc.? Sure tank itemisation took hits but that only marginally affected tank supports.
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On June 10 2016 00:54 Alaric wrote:
How come Zyra, Karma, etc. are becoming popular now over Braum, Alistar, etc.? Sure tank itemisation took hits but that only marginally affected tank supports.
Zyra's rework was a massive buff, massive as in gigantic. She was "not good but ok" before, now she's "good", her ability to set up dragon/baron fights by just derping around the area to spawn a host of seeds is not to be underestimated (Illaoi can do something similar).
Karma I think, is because we now have two Juggernauts++ aka Swain and Vladimir.
On June 09 2016 19:52 MuddyJam wrote:
Point is if your a bad player you don't have much of a feedback loop to what is good play. If you a solo lane you can get kills/towers etc. If jungle you can know ganks are good. As bad support its hard for a new player to get feedback on if your warding is good. And the adc at low lvls can do some very wild things which can make it impossible to have any consistency to then learn the game.
All new players regardless of role are bad at warding. :^)
Kidding aside, warding is something you really just have to learn from experience, where/when/how you ward depends almost entirely on team comps how you ward vs a Shaco is completely different than from say an Elise. There is of course some pretty standard timings and techniques you need to know.
In lower levels warding shouldnt really be your priority to master, I know I sound as a condescending prick but at this level players dont watch the map often enough. Learning how to use the champions kit properly should take priority, you will win more games by keeping your carries safe, and even more with proper engages, than placing wards that's not going to be used (this even holds true for low diamond mmr).
The "adc do wild things" goes both ways, a bad support makes it harder for an adc to learn too. The lesson to learn in these cases is "life is precious, dont commit suicide too".
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On June 10 2016 00:54 Alaric wrote:
How come Zyra, Karma, etc. are becoming popular now over Braum, Alistar, etc.? Sure tank itemisation took hits but that only marginally affected tank supports.
People are starting to realize how hilarious mantra E is with censor?
Also zyra got super buffed so it's legit hard for a melee support to stay in lane against her. And she has disengage to boot so you can't even engage into her later.
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On June 09 2016 19:52 MuddyJam wrote:
@Jek
yeah I guess they do have nicer champs than they used to. Worth noting thresh/bard/braum are the newest supports released.
But it doesn't change that if your not high elo then support doesn't exist as is more of a team mascot that race each other to go 0/10. Like if you are a smuck player it makes no sense to ever go support. Dunno just feel support needs a new or added mechanic. Kinda like how tp makes top lane more interesting. Riot changed jungle heavily with the smite changes maybe they need a support change.
Point is if your a bad player you don't have much of a feedback loop to what is good play. If you a solo lane you can get kills/towers etc. If jungle you can know ganks are good. As bad support its hard for a new player to get feedback on if your warding is good. And the adc at low lvls can do some very wild things which can make it impossible to have any consistency to then learn the game.
Also for learning its good to have these closed feedback loops. If i play cs:go I can see, o I missed alot there I can aim better and its very immediate. If you play most roles in lol you can see if you miss cs and now you can work on that.
Remark: I am not claiming
- support takes no skill
- you can't roflstomp solo que as support
I don't think this is true. I mean, everyone pretty much has to ask them self exactly the same questions everyone else has to.
Am [are] I [my lanes / my ADC] farming well? Why not? Am I playing the matchup properly? Am I putting out enough pressure to allow them to farm safely? What can I do differently?
Are people dying to Ganks? Why? Did you see it coming? If no your warding sucked. If you saw it coming and still died, what did you do wrong that you could have done differently so you didn't die? What can I do differently?
Are you guys taking objectives? Why why not? Did you have the appropriate vision? What can I do differently?
Are you winning teamfights? Why or why not? Should you have tried to team fight with your comp in the first place? What can I do differently?
Did you gank? Should you have ganked? Was it successful? Why or why not? What can I do differently
Are you properly enabling whomever on your team to carry you? Are you identifying who exactly is in a position to carry you?
Support literally has all the same feedback loops ADC, Mid, Top, and Jungle have.
On June 09 2016 23:00 Scip wrote:
What stats are relevant to supports and not relevant to anyone else
if you want slot efficiency to kick in time you need to make those "op" support items cost like 700-800 gold imo and even then top laners and junglers will probably pick them up
I think you can make them a little more expensive that that. Supports all the time get like Sightstone + Support Item + Locket.
The key is just having a contrast between slot efficiency and gold efficiency. You are stronger early with gold efficient items, but after one or maybe 2 big slot efficient items you just way stronger.
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warding is such a small part of playing support jesus
support is just slightly less gold/xp and high utility champions, they can snowball pretty fucking hard because they aren't bound to farming lanes
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On June 10 2016 01:35 Jek wrote:
All new players regardless of role are bad at warding. :^)
Kidding aside, warding is something you really just have to learn from experience, where/when/how you ward depends almost entirely on team comps how you ward vs a Shaco is completely different than from say an Elise. There is of course some pretty standard timings and techniques you need to know.
In lower levels warding shouldnt really be your priority to master, I know I sound as a condescending prick but at this level players dont watch the map often enough. Learning how to use the champions kit properly should take priority, you will win more games by keeping your carries safe, and even more with proper engages, than placing wards that's not going to be used (this even holds true for low diamond mmr).
The "adc do wild things" goes both ways, a bad support makes it harder for an adc to learn too. The lesson to learn in these cases is "life is precious, dont commit suicide too".
I completely agree with you on warding and to focus on champions kit. Maybe this is the way you have to go with supports is you give them more interesting kits. Like people do like bard/thresh/braum pretty well who all have pretty nice mechanics.
never played bard but I imagine bards ult is fun.
thresh has lantern which feels nice to use and save people and has a hook.
Braum feels mainly (for want of a better word) to block projectiles. Like tanking the culling and taking no damage feels really rewarding.
Laning 2v2 bot is probably not helped by the community being toxic in general so when you pair two people who don't know what they are doing its easy to blame each other. Which again is not helped by high variance in ability of the partner and often a wide range of champions played.
edit @iCandada
While your right the loops I was thinking of immediate ones like "i should of flashed" "i fail flashed" "I missed my skillshot". Things like gank timings and having the lane positioned badly and roaming are not trivial things.
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On June 09 2016 23:42 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Sad as it is, the answer may have to come through summoner spell reworks. Just like how the jungle items are tied to smite, you might just need support items tied to a summoner spell that no other lane really wants to take (maybe Exhaust, though lots of mid laners run Exhaust). It wouldn't shock me if in Season 7 or 8 the game simply defines your role by your first summoner spell. Smite = Jungle; Heal = ADC; Exhaust = Support; Teleport/Ignite = Top/Mid. That's sort of what happens right now anyway, the occasional Ignite Support / Exhaust Mid notwithstanding.
mid needs exhaust to deal with stuff like fizz and diana right now
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On June 10 2016 02:19 Slayer91 wrote:
warding is such a small part of playing support jesus
support is just slightly less gold/xp and high utility champions, they can snowball pretty fucking hard because they aren't bound to farming lanes
I agree 100%. Warding is on everyone with the current vision system anyway.
I mean warding is a big deal, but its not something that one dude is ever going to "carry". If you are the only person on your team warding, you gonna have shit vision. If no one else is buying pinks, you gonna have shit vision, and shit vision control of the enemy team.
I think a lot of low ELO or inexperienced supports would be better off just buying Mejai's instead of SS and snowballing, and just learning where / how to ward with their green trinket. The vision you get from having 2 green trinkets vs having a sightstone and Blue & red trinkets is effectively the same. And if they aren't warding well anyway you don't really need a red trinket.
Support right now is pretty much running around and enabling. Its like playing Maokai jungle back in the day gold gen stacking and when all your camps belonged to your mid laner who was racing to try and reach the most CS at 20 minutes with every other mid laner ever. Just usually you have to camp bot lane for most of the game so your ADC doesn't ragequit. LOL. (Although, thats pretty much every position right now, LOL. Number of times I've seen an ignite top laner get raged out when the other guy TP's bot once is too damn high. poor guy is like shitting on his lane and taking towers usually too. Ah Platinum.... Everyone thinks they Faker but plays like the bronze baddies we are and the rage ensues)
On June 10 2016 02:24 MuddyJam wrote:
edit @iCandada
While your right the loops I was thinking of immediate ones like "i should of flashed" "i fail flashed" "I missed my skillshot". Things like gank timings and having the lane positioned badly and roaming are not trivial things.
I mean... Support players have skillshots and flash too... I don't understand your point.
Its fine if you don't like playing support, but stop trying to make up broad overarching theories on why people don't play support. Most people just have this overwhelming urge to be the one killing things. That is why people play garbage like Yasuo top or Vayne that gets run over and require things to go perfectly and then feed horribly when they could have just pick Maokai or Sivir and get hard carried for being around and useful.
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