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Well the wait was as obnoxious as I feared it would be, but Riot has finally shortened death timers and given turrets armor and MR. No more supports taking 50% of a turrets HP on a minion wave. Good riddance.
I'm most excited for those Vladimir changes. It'll be great to see him not a brain-dead stat check piece of trash champ. Seems undertuned though.
Also anyone able to make heads or tails of the Syndra changes? I know she got dunked on her ap ratio post lvl 9, but maybe with the new items and W changes she's come out stronger for it? I won't be able to play test until tommorow so I dunno if I need my pitchfork just yet.
Vayne got buffed w/ new guinsoos I'm pretty sure, and while it does 0 to fix her massive Waveclear problem and they've nerfed some survivability options I'm excited for 2hit solver bolts
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On April 21 2016 06:48 IamPryda wrote:
Getting rid of boot enchantments and adding the jungles timers are awful. The dragon changes could go either way. Mage updates look good. Items some look good others look like balence nightmares
I disagree regarding boot enchantments and jungle timers. For the boot enchantments, Distortion/TP always felt incredibly stupid in its frequency when coupled with other options for reducing summoner spell cooldowns (Insight, Ionian Boots). Fervor/Captains enchants were very rarely picked because they were simply eclipsed by Distortion/Alacrity. Alacrity had movement speed access issues, as specifically mentioned by Riot.
Considering how people constantly complain about "mobility creep" in the game, they sure seem to hate reductions in mobility (TP/Ghost/Flash with Distortion, raw move speed with Alacrity).
Jungle timer improvements just make sense from a clarity standpoint. The information was already available should you choose to dig into the UI; this is just surfacing that information in much the same way Riot did for Baron/Dragon. People complained about the Baron/Dragon treatment too, but it hasn't made the game any worse; I'd say it's improved the in-game experience around those objectives IMO. The UI is supposed to be there to help you make decisions, not force you to battle it to get the information first.
On April 21 2016 08:43 Purge wrote:
Vayne got buffed w/ new guinsoos I'm pretty sure, and while it does 0 to fix her massive Waveclear problem and they've nerfed some survivability options I'm excited for 2hit solver bolts
I don't think so. Takes 6 autos to stack Guinsoo's in the first place, and I feel like Silver Bolts doesn't stack with on-hit triggering from items, otherwise you'd get some really weird interactions with items like Runnan's. I suppose we'll have to see though.
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On April 21 2016 05:27 Zess wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 04:26 Slusher wrote:
So one of the changes I was most interested in was Swain, because I like Swain and didn't like that he was part of the update. basically q is now a skillshot which is really werid to me, they gave it double damage to minions so I think they want you to max it for waveclear. Yea I loved playing Swain but apart from his brief spike with Deathfire, he's been struggling really hard because all of the meta mids just permanently shove you into your tower. Not having to max E is huge, and his Q is now AoE and does double dmg to minions, so it should help a ton with his wave control. Maxing Q vs W is now super awkward though because of the nerfs to his W root duration, but Q's dmg per mana goes up way better than W. His R does more dmg now though! And you can buy a spell to give you another Flash! So I'm still pretty excited
His new q isn't really aoe, it's attacks 1 target in the area at a time for the duration of a dot, also I'm fairly certian his ult is the same damage up until 4-5 targets at which point it is more. (the icd for attacking the same target is unchanged)
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On April 21 2016 08:48 iamcaustic wrote:
Jungle timer improvements just make sense from a clarity standpoint. The information was already available should you choose to dig into the UI; this is just surfacing that information in much the same way Riot did for Baron/Dragon. People complained about the Baron/Dragon treatment too, but it hasn't made the game any worse; I'd say it's improved the in-game experience around those objectives IMO. The UI is supposed to be there to help you make decisions, not force you to battle it to get the information first.
Not in regards to opposing camps you have no vision of. It's actually a direct buff to vision.
Like or hate the change your assessment of its scope is way off the mark.
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On April 21 2016 08:52 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 08:48 iamcaustic wrote:
Jungle timer improvements just make sense from a clarity standpoint. The information was already available should you choose to dig into the UI; this is just surfacing that information in much the same way Riot did for Baron/Dragon. People complained about the Baron/Dragon treatment too, but it hasn't made the game any worse; I'd say it's improved the in-game experience around those objectives IMO. The UI is supposed to be there to help you make decisions, not force you to battle it to get the information first. Not in regards to opposing camps you have no vision of. It's actually a direct buff to vision. Like or hate the change your assessment of its scope is way off the mark.
I'm not really off the mark. There's no "vision buff" to be had; you only know the spawn time regardless of vision, just like Baron/Dragon (this is literally the same change, now applied to blue/red buffs -- you used to not know the spawn time of Baron/Dragon if you didn't see them slain either).
If you want to contest a buff camp, you're still going to have to battle for vision or risk getting collapsed on. There's just more opportunity for contest now because the buff's availability is telegraphed just like the other major objectives.
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how is that not a buff to vision? you know when it will spawn 1 min ahead of time without having used any vision to collect that data
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On April 21 2016 09:06 Slusher wrote:
how is that not a buff to vision? you know when it will spawn 1 min ahead of time without having used any vision to collect that data
The same way knowing when Baron/Dragon spawns doesn't buff vision in any way. It lets you know that, if you want to contest, you should go and battle for vision, but that's about it. You don't get any vision for free.
Seems to me like you're confusing vision with spawn information. Right now in live, yes, you need to have vision of the buff camp when it's slain to explicitly get the spawn info (you can also manually estimate if you know the buff was recently taken, without explicit need for vision). That's also how Baron/Dragon used to work before Riot added the global timers. However, it's important to note that, in the case of having vision of the spawn, you already obtained vision prior to contesting the objective, and the spawn timing is provided thereafter regardless of your vision state. In the case of estimating, you never had vision to begin with.
These are concepts that, while they currently interact with one another, are separate. Riot moving toward unifying how objective spawn timers work across the board doesn't provide "free vision", in the same way you don't magically get vision of Baron when it spawns. If you think I'm wrong about this, I encourage you to waltz in to steal a red buff and get slapped by a trap bush to learn the difference for yourself.
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On April 21 2016 08:48 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 06:48 IamPryda wrote:
Getting rid of boot enchantments and adding the jungles timers are awful. The dragon changes could go either way. Mage updates look good. Items some look good others look like balence nightmares I disagree regarding boot enchantments and jungle timers. For the boot enchantments, Distortion/TP always felt incredibly stupid in its frequency when coupled with other options for reducing summoner spell cooldowns (Insight, Ionian Boots). Fervor/Captains enchants were very rarely picked because they were simply eclipsed by Distortion/Alacrity. Alacrity had movement speed access issues, as specifically mentioned by Riot. Considering how people constantly complain about "mobility creep" in the game, they sure seem to hate reductions in mobility (TP/Ghost/Flash with Distortion, raw move speed with Alacrity). Jungle timer improvements just make sense from a clarity standpoint. The information was already available should you choose to dig into the UI; this is just surfacing that information in much the same way Riot did for Baron/Dragon. People complained about the Baron/Dragon treatment too, but it hasn't made the game any worse; I'd say it's improved the in-game experience around those objectives IMO. The UI is supposed to be there to help you make decisions, not force you to battle it to get the information first. Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 08:43 Purge wrote:
Vayne got buffed w/ new guinsoos I'm pretty sure, and while it does 0 to fix her massive Waveclear problem and they've nerfed some survivability options I'm excited for 2hit solver bolts I don't think so. Takes 6 autos to stack Guinsoo's in the first place, and I feel like Silver Bolts doesn't stack with on-hit triggering from items, otherwise you'd get some really weird interactions with items like Runnan's. I suppose we'll have to see though.
Silver Bolts
Passive: Vayne's basic attacks and abilities mark her target with Silver Bolts for 3 seconds, stacking up to 3 times. Attacking a new enemy cleanses the previous target of all Silver Bolts.
The third stack consumes all Silver Bolts on the target to deal them true damage. The damage has a minimum damage threshold, and is capped at 200 against monsters.
The italicized part is what is important here. With Hurricaine you hit 3 different targets with Silver Bolts at the same time, so all of the stacks get wiped away. That's why when you get one you can't even stack it on anybody anymore. Rageblade will cause 2 Silver Bolts stacks every other attack because it is an on-hit.
Yeah, 6 attacks is quite a bit for a "warm up" period, but if a Vayne is going to take over fights she is going to get more attacks than that anyway and will just be more devastating afterwards.
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On April 21 2016 09:21 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 09:06 Slusher wrote:
how is that not a buff to vision? you know when it will spawn 1 min ahead of time without having used any vision to collect that data The same way knowing when Baron/Dragon spawns doesn't buff vision in any way. It lets you know that, if you want to contest, you should go and battle for vision, but that's about it. You don't get any vision for free. Seems to me like you're confusing vision with spawn information. Right now in live, yes, you need to have vision of the buff camp when it's slain to explicitly get the spawn info (you can also manually estimate if you know the buff was recently taken, without explicit need for vision). That's also how Baron/Dragon used to work before Riot added the global timers. However, it's important to note that, in the case of having vision of the spawn, you already obtained vision prior to contesting the objective, and the spawn timing is provided thereafter regardless of your vision state. In the case of estimating, you never had vision to begin with. These are concepts that, while they currently interact with one another, are separate. Riot moving toward unifying how objective spawn timers work across the board doesn't provide "free vision", in the same way you don't magically get vision of Baron when it spawns. If you think I'm wrong about this, I encourage you to waltz in to steal a red buff and get slapped by a trap bush to learn the difference for yourself.
your getting free information that you otherwise would have needed to go into the enemy's jungle and ward which is not always safe. also before if you were playing a good counter jungle like shyv and you could keep the enemy jungle from getting his own buff time if he's too cheap/bad to pink it. its just dumbing down the game and making it easier for lee sins and nids to steal your buffs.
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On April 21 2016 11:50 IamPryda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 09:21 iamcaustic wrote:On April 21 2016 09:06 Slusher wrote:
how is that not a buff to vision? you know when it will spawn 1 min ahead of time without having used any vision to collect that data The same way knowing when Baron/Dragon spawns doesn't buff vision in any way. It lets you know that, if you want to contest, you should go and battle for vision, but that's about it. You don't get any vision for free. Seems to me like you're confusing vision with spawn information. Right now in live, yes, you need to have vision of the buff camp when it's slain to explicitly get the spawn info (you can also manually estimate if you know the buff was recently taken, without explicit need for vision). That's also how Baron/Dragon used to work before Riot added the global timers. However, it's important to note that, in the case of having vision of the spawn, you already obtained vision prior to contesting the objective, and the spawn timing is provided thereafter regardless of your vision state. In the case of estimating, you never had vision to begin with. These are concepts that, while they currently interact with one another, are separate. Riot moving toward unifying how objective spawn timers work across the board doesn't provide "free vision", in the same way you don't magically get vision of Baron when it spawns. If you think I'm wrong about this, I encourage you to waltz in to steal a red buff and get slapped by a trap bush to learn the difference for yourself. your getting free information that you otherwise would have needed to go into the enemy's jungle and ward which is not always safe. also before if you were playing a good counter jungle like shyv and you could keep the enemy jungle from getting his own buff time if he's too cheap/bad to pink it. its just dumbing down the game and making it easier for lee sins and nids to steal your buffs.
Those buffs are way more impactful now than theyve been for ages though (prob since red buff procced on single target spells) so I could understand the allure to make them more contestable. They really don't have the game impact I think they promise to on live rn.
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Also Illaoi changes coming! This patch is lit af
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On April 21 2016 08:43 Purge wrote:
Also anyone able to make heads or tails of the Syndra changes? I know she got dunked on her ap ratio post lvl 9, but maybe with the new items and W changes she's come out stronger for it? I won't be able to play test until tommorow so I dunno if I need my pitchfork just yet.
She can seven sphere ult MUCH easier now with the increased sphere duration. So now that her max damage is a lot more accessible (like almost guaranteed I'd say), her damage outside of that is worse. I don't like W, seems like it will be bug riddled. I read somewhere E has a lower cooldown, so that's something. I just want E to work reliably though. Overall, I'm not a fan of the changes. I'm much more excited for Brand and Malzahar. I also was stupidly hoping Xerath would maybe return to something of his old self...
Also Riot removes alacrity, citing there is too much move speed in the game. Adds air dragon. Come on.
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Feel like Riots balance team has kind of lost sight of what it means to be an RTS game. Imperfect vision is one of the driving forces of those kind of games, dealing with it is a fundamental skill people have to learn. The trinket and vision changes tried fixing a problem by creating a different massive problem and now instead of going back to that they keep adding more complex solutions.
I know talking about Dota doesn't help but I can't help but feel they should look at the concepts Icefrog used to make the game more bloody over the years. The game used to be heaven for a humble rice farmer.
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The Viktor changes currently on PBE are all nerfs (needs 450 AP for Q to get back its old damage, and something like 1500 mana for the shield to be equal to previously, E changes don't need commentary), and the ult change, supposed to be a big buff if you can get the storm to stick to somebody...
1- is a nerf against anything mobile with the reduced initial damage if they can just dash away, since you don't even get a couple ticks
2- is hugely reliant on them actually debugging and improving the targeting AI (even after the QoL from his first rework, it wasn't always responsive, especially if you redirect right after the cast, it sometimes goes to a zone even if you target the redirection on a champion and thus stops following them, and the whole "automatically follows if the initial cast only hits one champion" rarely worked).
What are they even trying to do with him.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
"Jungle camps have global icon/timers regardless of vision" isn't what the riot page said lol
I was worried for a second that something retarded was done but all they did was made it so you didn't have to track enemy buffs by seeing when they expire on enemy champions
whoop de do.
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He articulates precisely why it is this way and won't change, though: "remember the roots of the game", "set yourself a challenge", "put a bar high and try to surpass it", etc.
That's opposed to the philosophy behind the game right now. Apart from high mechanical ceiling on champions and making more and more complicated abilities (overload each of them rather than making them work in concert), the goal is to reduce everything-so players can focus on that single part, playing their champion (oftimes their favourite champion thanks to new champ select).
"I've been a competitive league player ever since there's been competitive league": well that's issue Crumbzz, you're an old player, Riot doesn't need you anymore.
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Too bad an easy, dumbed down game doesn't get people to stay with the game, but pick it up and then drop it because it's boring.
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On April 21 2016 21:46 Scip wrote:
"Jungle camps have global icon/timers regardless of vision" isn't what the riot page said lol
I was worried for a second that something retarded was done but all they did was made it so you didn't have to track enemy buffs by seeing when they expire on enemy champions
whoop de do.
I rephrased it to be less misleading since the way I phrased it before didn't actually indicate what was going on.
I don't think this change even registers on the slippery slope of "dumbing down the game." We've had a season of global Dragon/Baron timers (and these are just indicators) and most soloq games still don't have people taking Dragon on timer even when it is completely free (i.e. pushing down a lane where there isn't a tower to get and wasting time).
If you want to actually contest a buff you're still going to have to have waves in the right place and laners in the right place and be prepared to drop vision.
I mean, in Starcraft you also have a million timers telling you when supply is reaching the limit or when buildings are finishing, but people still missed build timings and got supply blocked because the visual information doesn't mean anything when it isn't part of your mental cadence of processing the game.
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On April 21 2016 10:15 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 08:48 iamcaustic wrote:On April 21 2016 06:48 IamPryda wrote:
Getting rid of boot enchantments and adding the jungles timers are awful. The dragon changes could go either way. Mage updates look good. Items some look good others look like balence nightmares I disagree regarding boot enchantments and jungle timers. For the boot enchantments, Distortion/TP always felt incredibly stupid in its frequency when coupled with other options for reducing summoner spell cooldowns (Insight, Ionian Boots). Fervor/Captains enchants were very rarely picked because they were simply eclipsed by Distortion/Alacrity. Alacrity had movement speed access issues, as specifically mentioned by Riot. Considering how people constantly complain about "mobility creep" in the game, they sure seem to hate reductions in mobility (TP/Ghost/Flash with Distortion, raw move speed with Alacrity). Jungle timer improvements just make sense from a clarity standpoint. The information was already available should you choose to dig into the UI; this is just surfacing that information in much the same way Riot did for Baron/Dragon. People complained about the Baron/Dragon treatment too, but it hasn't made the game any worse; I'd say it's improved the in-game experience around those objectives IMO. The UI is supposed to be there to help you make decisions, not force you to battle it to get the information first. On April 21 2016 08:43 Purge wrote:
Vayne got buffed w/ new guinsoos I'm pretty sure, and while it does 0 to fix her massive Waveclear problem and they've nerfed some survivability options I'm excited for 2hit solver bolts I don't think so. Takes 6 autos to stack Guinsoo's in the first place, and I feel like Silver Bolts doesn't stack with on-hit triggering from items, otherwise you'd get some really weird interactions with items like Runnan's. I suppose we'll have to see though. Show nested quote +Silver Bolts
Passive: Vayne's basic attacks and abilities mark her target with Silver Bolts for 3 seconds, stacking up to 3 times. Attacking a new enemy cleanses the previous target of all Silver Bolts.
The third stack consumes all Silver Bolts on the target to deal them true damage. The damage has a minimum damage threshold, and is capped at 200 against monsters. The italicized part is what is important here. With Hurricaine you hit 3 different targets with Silver Bolts at the same time, so all of the stacks get wiped away. That's why when you get one you can't even stack it on anybody anymore. Rageblade will cause 2 Silver Bolts stacks every other attack because it is an on-hit. Yeah, 6 attacks is quite a bit for a "warm up" period, but if a Vayne is going to take over fights she is going to get more attacks than that anyway and will just be more devastating afterwards. Is that actually how Runnan's interacts with silver bolts? I'm gonna have to try it in my free time. TBH I always get PD or RFC but conceptually it seems weird that an item would basically make a core piece of her kit stop working in any scenario other than an isolated 1v1. I'd have figured that silver bolts' on-hit passive worked a bit differently.
On April 21 2016 11:50 IamPryda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 09:21 iamcaustic wrote:On April 21 2016 09:06 Slusher wrote:
how is that not a buff to vision? you know when it will spawn 1 min ahead of time without having used any vision to collect that data The same way knowing when Baron/Dragon spawns doesn't buff vision in any way. It lets you know that, if you want to contest, you should go and battle for vision, but that's about it. You don't get any vision for free. Seems to me like you're confusing vision with spawn information. Right now in live, yes, you need to have vision of the buff camp when it's slain to explicitly get the spawn info (you can also manually estimate if you know the buff was recently taken, without explicit need for vision). That's also how Baron/Dragon used to work before Riot added the global timers. However, it's important to note that, in the case of having vision of the spawn, you already obtained vision prior to contesting the objective, and the spawn timing is provided thereafter regardless of your vision state. In the case of estimating, you never had vision to begin with. These are concepts that, while they currently interact with one another, are separate. Riot moving toward unifying how objective spawn timers work across the board doesn't provide "free vision", in the same way you don't magically get vision of Baron when it spawns. If you think I'm wrong about this, I encourage you to waltz in to steal a red buff and get slapped by a trap bush to learn the difference for yourself. your getting free information that you otherwise would have needed to go into the enemy's jungle and ward which is not always safe. also before if you were playing a good counter jungle like shyv and you could keep the enemy jungle from getting his own buff time if he's too cheap/bad to pink it. its just dumbing down the game and making it easier for lee sins and nids to steal your buffs. Still not a vision buff, though. People said Dragon/Baron timers would dumb down the game too, but that hasn't happened. You also seem to be making contradictory statements. On one hand you say:
On April 21 2016 11:50 IamPryda wrote:
[...]you could keep the enemy jungle from getting his own buff time if he's too cheap/bad to pink it.
But on the other hand:
On April 21 2016 11:50 IamPryda wrote:
[...]making it easier for lee sins and nids to steal your buffs.
Which is it? Easy to keep stealing buffs by preventing the enemy team from knowing their buff is spawning, or easy to steal buffs because the enemy knows their buff is spawning? Seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too, rather than looking at it objectively.
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EPT
