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On April 21 2016 23:34 Zess wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 21:46 Scip wrote:
"Jungle camps have global icon/timers regardless of vision" isn't what the riot page said lol
I was worried for a second that something retarded was done but all they did was made it so you didn't have to track enemy buffs by seeing when they expire on enemy champions
whoop de do. I rephrased it to be less misleading since the way I phrased it before didn't actually indicate what was going on. I don't think this change even registers on the slippery slope of "dumbing down the game." We've had a season of global Dragon/Baron timers (and these are just indicators) and most soloq games still don't have people taking Dragon on timer even when it is completely free (i.e. pushing down a lane where there isn't a tower to get and wasting time). If you want to actually contest a buff you're still going to have to have waves in the right place and laners in the right place and be prepared to drop vision. I mean, in Starcraft you also have a million timers telling you when supply is reaching the limit or when buildings are finishing, but people still missed build timings and got supply blocked because the visual information doesn't mean anything when it isn't part of your mental cadence of processing the game.
It does dumb down the game. It is just every good player did this so it doesn't actually change anything for them only for the baddies.
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On April 22 2016 01:52 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 10:15 Gahlo wrote:On April 21 2016 08:48 iamcaustic wrote:On April 21 2016 06:48 IamPryda wrote:
Getting rid of boot enchantments and adding the jungles timers are awful. The dragon changes could go either way. Mage updates look good. Items some look good others look like balence nightmares I disagree regarding boot enchantments and jungle timers. For the boot enchantments, Distortion/TP always felt incredibly stupid in its frequency when coupled with other options for reducing summoner spell cooldowns (Insight, Ionian Boots). Fervor/Captains enchants were very rarely picked because they were simply eclipsed by Distortion/Alacrity. Alacrity had movement speed access issues, as specifically mentioned by Riot. Considering how people constantly complain about "mobility creep" in the game, they sure seem to hate reductions in mobility (TP/Ghost/Flash with Distortion, raw move speed with Alacrity). Jungle timer improvements just make sense from a clarity standpoint. The information was already available should you choose to dig into the UI; this is just surfacing that information in much the same way Riot did for Baron/Dragon. People complained about the Baron/Dragon treatment too, but it hasn't made the game any worse; I'd say it's improved the in-game experience around those objectives IMO. The UI is supposed to be there to help you make decisions, not force you to battle it to get the information first. On April 21 2016 08:43 Purge wrote:
Vayne got buffed w/ new guinsoos I'm pretty sure, and while it does 0 to fix her massive Waveclear problem and they've nerfed some survivability options I'm excited for 2hit solver bolts I don't think so. Takes 6 autos to stack Guinsoo's in the first place, and I feel like Silver Bolts doesn't stack with on-hit triggering from items, otherwise you'd get some really weird interactions with items like Runnan's. I suppose we'll have to see though. Silver Bolts
Passive: Vayne's basic attacks and abilities mark her target with Silver Bolts for 3 seconds, stacking up to 3 times. Attacking a new enemy cleanses the previous target of all Silver Bolts.
The third stack consumes all Silver Bolts on the target to deal them true damage. The damage has a minimum damage threshold, and is capped at 200 against monsters. The italicized part is what is important here. With Hurricaine you hit 3 different targets with Silver Bolts at the same time, so all of the stacks get wiped away. That's why when you get one you can't even stack it on anybody anymore. Rageblade will cause 2 Silver Bolts stacks every other attack because it is an on-hit. Yeah, 6 attacks is quite a bit for a "warm up" period, but if a Vayne is going to take over fights she is going to get more attacks than that anyway and will just be more devastating afterwards. Is that actually how Runnan's interacts with silver bolts? I'm gonna have to try it in my free time. TBH I always get PD or RFC but conceptually it seems weird that an item would basically make a core piece of her kit stop working in any scenario other than an isolated 1v1. I'd have figured that silver bolts' on-hit passive worked a bit differently. Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 11:50 IamPryda wrote:On April 21 2016 09:21 iamcaustic wrote:On April 21 2016 09:06 Slusher wrote:
how is that not a buff to vision? you know when it will spawn 1 min ahead of time without having used any vision to collect that data The same way knowing when Baron/Dragon spawns doesn't buff vision in any way. It lets you know that, if you want to contest, you should go and battle for vision, but that's about it. You don't get any vision for free. Seems to me like you're confusing vision with spawn information. Right now in live, yes, you need to have vision of the buff camp when it's slain to explicitly get the spawn info (you can also manually estimate if you know the buff was recently taken, without explicit need for vision). That's also how Baron/Dragon used to work before Riot added the global timers. However, it's important to note that, in the case of having vision of the spawn, you already obtained vision prior to contesting the objective, and the spawn timing is provided thereafter regardless of your vision state. In the case of estimating, you never had vision to begin with. These are concepts that, while they currently interact with one another, are separate. Riot moving toward unifying how objective spawn timers work across the board doesn't provide "free vision", in the same way you don't magically get vision of Baron when it spawns. If you think I'm wrong about this, I encourage you to waltz in to steal a red buff and get slapped by a trap bush to learn the difference for yourself. your getting free information that you otherwise would have needed to go into the enemy's jungle and ward which is not always safe. also before if you were playing a good counter jungle like shyv and you could keep the enemy jungle from getting his own buff time if he's too cheap/bad to pink it. its just dumbing down the game and making it easier for lee sins and nids to steal your buffs. Still not a vision buff, though. People said Dragon/Baron timers would dumb down the game too, but that hasn't happened. You also seem to be making contradictory statements. On one hand you say: Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 11:50 IamPryda wrote:
[...]you could keep the enemy jungle from getting his own buff time if he's too cheap/bad to pink it.
But on the other hand: Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 11:50 IamPryda wrote:
[...]making it easier for lee sins and nids to steal your buffs.
Which is it? Easy to keep stealing buffs by preventing the enemy team from knowing their buff is spawning, or easy to steal buffs because the enemy knows their buff is spawning? Seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too, rather than looking at it objectively.
Wait, what? No, Runaan's doesn't get rid of Vayne's silver bolts procs. It only procs on the target Vayne is aiming for, not the targets that get damaged as a side effect of Runaan's. Try this with a jungle camp like red buff, and you'll notice that Red Buff will still have silver bolts proced, and the little minions get damaged but there's no bolts on them.
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On April 22 2016 03:19 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 01:52 iamcaustic wrote:On April 21 2016 10:15 Gahlo wrote:On April 21 2016 08:48 iamcaustic wrote:On April 21 2016 06:48 IamPryda wrote:
Getting rid of boot enchantments and adding the jungles timers are awful. The dragon changes could go either way. Mage updates look good. Items some look good others look like balence nightmares I disagree regarding boot enchantments and jungle timers. For the boot enchantments, Distortion/TP always felt incredibly stupid in its frequency when coupled with other options for reducing summoner spell cooldowns (Insight, Ionian Boots). Fervor/Captains enchants were very rarely picked because they were simply eclipsed by Distortion/Alacrity. Alacrity had movement speed access issues, as specifically mentioned by Riot. Considering how people constantly complain about "mobility creep" in the game, they sure seem to hate reductions in mobility (TP/Ghost/Flash with Distortion, raw move speed with Alacrity). Jungle timer improvements just make sense from a clarity standpoint. The information was already available should you choose to dig into the UI; this is just surfacing that information in much the same way Riot did for Baron/Dragon. People complained about the Baron/Dragon treatment too, but it hasn't made the game any worse; I'd say it's improved the in-game experience around those objectives IMO. The UI is supposed to be there to help you make decisions, not force you to battle it to get the information first. On April 21 2016 08:43 Purge wrote:
Vayne got buffed w/ new guinsoos I'm pretty sure, and while it does 0 to fix her massive Waveclear problem and they've nerfed some survivability options I'm excited for 2hit solver bolts I don't think so. Takes 6 autos to stack Guinsoo's in the first place, and I feel like Silver Bolts doesn't stack with on-hit triggering from items, otherwise you'd get some really weird interactions with items like Runnan's. I suppose we'll have to see though. Silver Bolts
Passive: Vayne's basic attacks and abilities mark her target with Silver Bolts for 3 seconds, stacking up to 3 times. Attacking a new enemy cleanses the previous target of all Silver Bolts.
The third stack consumes all Silver Bolts on the target to deal them true damage. The damage has a minimum damage threshold, and is capped at 200 against monsters. The italicized part is what is important here. With Hurricaine you hit 3 different targets with Silver Bolts at the same time, so all of the stacks get wiped away. That's why when you get one you can't even stack it on anybody anymore. Rageblade will cause 2 Silver Bolts stacks every other attack because it is an on-hit. Yeah, 6 attacks is quite a bit for a "warm up" period, but if a Vayne is going to take over fights she is going to get more attacks than that anyway and will just be more devastating afterwards. Is that actually how Runnan's interacts with silver bolts? I'm gonna have to try it in my free time. TBH I always get PD or RFC but conceptually it seems weird that an item would basically make a core piece of her kit stop working in any scenario other than an isolated 1v1. I'd have figured that silver bolts' on-hit passive worked a bit differently. On April 21 2016 11:50 IamPryda wrote:On April 21 2016 09:21 iamcaustic wrote:On April 21 2016 09:06 Slusher wrote:
how is that not a buff to vision? you know when it will spawn 1 min ahead of time without having used any vision to collect that data The same way knowing when Baron/Dragon spawns doesn't buff vision in any way. It lets you know that, if you want to contest, you should go and battle for vision, but that's about it. You don't get any vision for free. Seems to me like you're confusing vision with spawn information. Right now in live, yes, you need to have vision of the buff camp when it's slain to explicitly get the spawn info (you can also manually estimate if you know the buff was recently taken, without explicit need for vision). That's also how Baron/Dragon used to work before Riot added the global timers. However, it's important to note that, in the case of having vision of the spawn, you already obtained vision prior to contesting the objective, and the spawn timing is provided thereafter regardless of your vision state. In the case of estimating, you never had vision to begin with. These are concepts that, while they currently interact with one another, are separate. Riot moving toward unifying how objective spawn timers work across the board doesn't provide "free vision", in the same way you don't magically get vision of Baron when it spawns. If you think I'm wrong about this, I encourage you to waltz in to steal a red buff and get slapped by a trap bush to learn the difference for yourself. your getting free information that you otherwise would have needed to go into the enemy's jungle and ward which is not always safe. also before if you were playing a good counter jungle like shyv and you could keep the enemy jungle from getting his own buff time if he's too cheap/bad to pink it. its just dumbing down the game and making it easier for lee sins and nids to steal your buffs. Still not a vision buff, though. People said Dragon/Baron timers would dumb down the game too, but that hasn't happened. You also seem to be making contradictory statements. On one hand you say: On April 21 2016 11:50 IamPryda wrote:
[...]you could keep the enemy jungle from getting his own buff time if he's too cheap/bad to pink it.
But on the other hand: On April 21 2016 11:50 IamPryda wrote:
[...]making it easier for lee sins and nids to steal your buffs.
Which is it? Easy to keep stealing buffs by preventing the enemy team from knowing their buff is spawning, or easy to steal buffs because the enemy knows their buff is spawning? Seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too, rather than looking at it objectively. Wait, what? No, Runaan's doesn't get rid of Vayne's silver bolts procs. It only procs on the target Vayne is aiming for, not the targets that get damaged as a side effect of Runaan's. Try this with a jungle camp like red buff, and you'll notice that Red Buff will still have silver bolts proced, and the little minions get damaged but there's no bolts on them.
I guess they changed it up when they reworked Runaans because I am positive it used to work that way.
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On April 22 2016 03:19 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 01:52 iamcaustic wrote:On April 21 2016 10:15 Gahlo wrote:On April 21 2016 08:48 iamcaustic wrote:On April 21 2016 06:48 IamPryda wrote:
Getting rid of boot enchantments and adding the jungles timers are awful. The dragon changes could go either way. Mage updates look good. Items some look good others look like balence nightmares I disagree regarding boot enchantments and jungle timers. For the boot enchantments, Distortion/TP always felt incredibly stupid in its frequency when coupled with other options for reducing summoner spell cooldowns (Insight, Ionian Boots). Fervor/Captains enchants were very rarely picked because they were simply eclipsed by Distortion/Alacrity. Alacrity had movement speed access issues, as specifically mentioned by Riot. Considering how people constantly complain about "mobility creep" in the game, they sure seem to hate reductions in mobility (TP/Ghost/Flash with Distortion, raw move speed with Alacrity). Jungle timer improvements just make sense from a clarity standpoint. The information was already available should you choose to dig into the UI; this is just surfacing that information in much the same way Riot did for Baron/Dragon. People complained about the Baron/Dragon treatment too, but it hasn't made the game any worse; I'd say it's improved the in-game experience around those objectives IMO. The UI is supposed to be there to help you make decisions, not force you to battle it to get the information first. On April 21 2016 08:43 Purge wrote:
Vayne got buffed w/ new guinsoos I'm pretty sure, and while it does 0 to fix her massive Waveclear problem and they've nerfed some survivability options I'm excited for 2hit solver bolts I don't think so. Takes 6 autos to stack Guinsoo's in the first place, and I feel like Silver Bolts doesn't stack with on-hit triggering from items, otherwise you'd get some really weird interactions with items like Runnan's. I suppose we'll have to see though. Silver Bolts
Passive: Vayne's basic attacks and abilities mark her target with Silver Bolts for 3 seconds, stacking up to 3 times. Attacking a new enemy cleanses the previous target of all Silver Bolts.
The third stack consumes all Silver Bolts on the target to deal them true damage. The damage has a minimum damage threshold, and is capped at 200 against monsters. The italicized part is what is important here. With Hurricaine you hit 3 different targets with Silver Bolts at the same time, so all of the stacks get wiped away. That's why when you get one you can't even stack it on anybody anymore. Rageblade will cause 2 Silver Bolts stacks every other attack because it is an on-hit. Yeah, 6 attacks is quite a bit for a "warm up" period, but if a Vayne is going to take over fights she is going to get more attacks than that anyway and will just be more devastating afterwards. Is that actually how Runnan's interacts with silver bolts? I'm gonna have to try it in my free time. TBH I always get PD or RFC but conceptually it seems weird that an item would basically make a core piece of her kit stop working in any scenario other than an isolated 1v1. I'd have figured that silver bolts' on-hit passive worked a bit differently. On April 21 2016 11:50 IamPryda wrote:On April 21 2016 09:21 iamcaustic wrote:On April 21 2016 09:06 Slusher wrote:
how is that not a buff to vision? you know when it will spawn 1 min ahead of time without having used any vision to collect that data The same way knowing when Baron/Dragon spawns doesn't buff vision in any way. It lets you know that, if you want to contest, you should go and battle for vision, but that's about it. You don't get any vision for free. Seems to me like you're confusing vision with spawn information. Right now in live, yes, you need to have vision of the buff camp when it's slain to explicitly get the spawn info (you can also manually estimate if you know the buff was recently taken, without explicit need for vision). That's also how Baron/Dragon used to work before Riot added the global timers. However, it's important to note that, in the case of having vision of the spawn, you already obtained vision prior to contesting the objective, and the spawn timing is provided thereafter regardless of your vision state. In the case of estimating, you never had vision to begin with. These are concepts that, while they currently interact with one another, are separate. Riot moving toward unifying how objective spawn timers work across the board doesn't provide "free vision", in the same way you don't magically get vision of Baron when it spawns. If you think I'm wrong about this, I encourage you to waltz in to steal a red buff and get slapped by a trap bush to learn the difference for yourself. your getting free information that you otherwise would have needed to go into the enemy's jungle and ward which is not always safe. also before if you were playing a good counter jungle like shyv and you could keep the enemy jungle from getting his own buff time if he's too cheap/bad to pink it. its just dumbing down the game and making it easier for lee sins and nids to steal your buffs. Still not a vision buff, though. People said Dragon/Baron timers would dumb down the game too, but that hasn't happened. You also seem to be making contradictory statements. On one hand you say: On April 21 2016 11:50 IamPryda wrote:
[...]you could keep the enemy jungle from getting his own buff time if he's too cheap/bad to pink it.
But on the other hand: On April 21 2016 11:50 IamPryda wrote:
[...]making it easier for lee sins and nids to steal your buffs.
Which is it? Easy to keep stealing buffs by preventing the enemy team from knowing their buff is spawning, or easy to steal buffs because the enemy knows their buff is spawning? Seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too, rather than looking at it objectively. Wait, what? No, Runaan's doesn't get rid of Vayne's silver bolts procs. It only procs on the target Vayne is aiming for, not the targets that get damaged as a side effect of Runaan's. Try this with a jungle camp like red buff, and you'll notice that Red Buff will still have silver bolts proced, and the little minions get damaged but there's no bolts on them.
This sounds a lot more reasonable to me, which brings my back to my original point regarding Guinsoo's changes... I'd also find it weird if Silver Bolts proced on something other than the usual 1-2-3 auto/ability stacking. I don't have a PBE account to test myself, but my gut feeling is that Guinsoo's isn't gonna be as broken on Vayne as some people are theorycrafting it to be.
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I thought I read that they specifically turned off Runaans bolts having the Silver Bolt effect? Other champs but her keep any on hit abilities they have.
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On April 22 2016 02:03 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2016 23:34 Zess wrote:On April 21 2016 21:46 Scip wrote:
"Jungle camps have global icon/timers regardless of vision" isn't what the riot page said lol
I was worried for a second that something retarded was done but all they did was made it so you didn't have to track enemy buffs by seeing when they expire on enemy champions
whoop de do. I rephrased it to be less misleading since the way I phrased it before didn't actually indicate what was going on. I don't think this change even registers on the slippery slope of "dumbing down the game." We've had a season of global Dragon/Baron timers (and these are just indicators) and most soloq games still don't have people taking Dragon on timer even when it is completely free (i.e. pushing down a lane where there isn't a tower to get and wasting time). If you want to actually contest a buff you're still going to have to have waves in the right place and laners in the right place and be prepared to drop vision. I mean, in Starcraft you also have a million timers telling you when supply is reaching the limit or when buildings are finishing, but people still missed build timings and got supply blocked because the visual information doesn't mean anything when it isn't part of your mental cadence of processing the game. It does dumb down the game. It is just every good player did this so it doesn't actually change anything for them only for the baddies.
Then you get to the debate of whether or not memorizing timers is a skill that needs to be tested. I'm pretty sure Riot already agrees that it wasn't, considering dragon/baron timers.
I also feel that its not a skill that fun or useful to test for and be good at, and removing it does not cheapen the required skill in an appreciable way. You can't even really be 'good' at memorizing timers, you either wrote it down in chat or didn't...
by removing it, instead we get more focus onto the skill of vision games and skirmishing, which i feel is much more important than timer memorizing
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On April 22 2016 04:57 Kaneh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 02:03 nafta wrote:On April 21 2016 23:34 Zess wrote:On April 21 2016 21:46 Scip wrote:
"Jungle camps have global icon/timers regardless of vision" isn't what the riot page said lol
I was worried for a second that something retarded was done but all they did was made it so you didn't have to track enemy buffs by seeing when they expire on enemy champions
whoop de do. I rephrased it to be less misleading since the way I phrased it before didn't actually indicate what was going on. I don't think this change even registers on the slippery slope of "dumbing down the game." We've had a season of global Dragon/Baron timers (and these are just indicators) and most soloq games still don't have people taking Dragon on timer even when it is completely free (i.e. pushing down a lane where there isn't a tower to get and wasting time). If you want to actually contest a buff you're still going to have to have waves in the right place and laners in the right place and be prepared to drop vision. I mean, in Starcraft you also have a million timers telling you when supply is reaching the limit or when buildings are finishing, but people still missed build timings and got supply blocked because the visual information doesn't mean anything when it isn't part of your mental cadence of processing the game. It does dumb down the game. It is just every good player did this so it doesn't actually change anything for them only for the baddies. Then you get to the debate of whether or not memorizing timers is a skill that needs to be tested. I'm pretty sure Riot already agrees that it wasn't, considering dragon/baron timers. I also feel that its not a skill that fun or useful to test for and be good at, and removing it does not cheapen the required skill in an appreciable way. You can't even really be 'good' at memorizing timers, you either wrote it down in chat or didn't... by removing it, instead we get more focus onto the skill of vision games and skirmishing, which i feel is much more important than timer memorizing
It is a slippery slope. Following that logic we should have all enemy summoner and ult timers cuz all you do is write it down amirite?
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On April 22 2016 07:06 nafta wrote:
It is a slippery slope.
That phrase. I don't think it means what you think it means.
On April 22 2016 07:06 nafta wrote:
Following that logic we should have all enemy summoner and ult timers cuz all you do is write it down amirite?
They're not actually equivalent scenarios. Visibility of cool downs (Riot already added visibility for allied ult CDs, but I digress) and spawn times provide very different information and reactions to said information. One could debate whether or not it'd be better if the game surfaced enemy cool downs in the UI, but it's a different topic entirely.
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Disagree that it's a different topic. You have to consider Riot's goals for the timer change, which is not about helping you remember your own timer, they specifically pointed out they want people to fight over ENEMY jungle spawns. At which point taking advantage of a situation where you know you can force your will on an enemy, like by taking away their blue buff, is exactly the same as forcing your will on an enemy by ganking while their flash is down.
"Timers aren't fun so we're making them automatic" was the reasoning behind timers that required vision. This change is "we want you to fight the other team more" and making enemy CDs visible accomplishes the same goal, in the same way. Granted it's a very dumb, bad, hamfisted, stupid way, but it's the method Riot's picked.
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On April 22 2016 07:22 iamcaustic wrote:That phrase. I don't think it means what you think it means. Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 07:06 nafta wrote:
Following that logic we should have all enemy summoner and ult timers cuz all you do is write it down amirite? They're not actually equivalent scenarios. Visibility of cool downs (Riot already added visibility for allied ult CDs, but I digress) and spawn times provide very different information and reactions to said information. One could debate whether or not it'd be better if the game surfaced enemy cool downs in the UI, but it's a different topic entirely.
wat
That's literally what nafta said lol, how is it a different topic.
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On April 22 2016 07:22 iamcaustic wrote:That phrase. I don't think it means what you think it means. Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 07:06 nafta wrote:
Following that logic we should have all enemy summoner and ult timers cuz all you do is write it down amirite? They're not actually equivalent scenarios. Visibility of cool downs (Riot already added visibility for allied ult CDs, but I digress) and spawn times provide very different information and reactions to said information. One could debate whether or not it'd be better if the game surfaced enemy cool downs in the UI, but it's a different topic entirely.
First there were no timers then the dragon dying had global sound so you had to time it manually same as nashor followed by getting timers if we saw them die. Now we get them regardless.
Getting information like that makes you move to places or at least keep it mind. The same way knowing the enemy jinx doesn't have flash would make a jungler want to gank bot. Don't see how is it any different tbh.
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On April 22 2016 11:55 Cyraknoss wrote:
Disagree that it's a different topic. You have to consider Riot's goals for the timer change, which is not about helping you remember your own timer, they specifically pointed out they want people to fight over ENEMY jungle spawns. At which point taking advantage of a situation where you know you can force your will on an enemy, like by taking away their blue buff, is exactly the same as forcing your will on an enemy by ganking while their flash is down.
"Timers aren't fun so we're making them automatic" was the reasoning behind timers that required vision. This change is "we want you to fight the other team more" and making enemy CDs visible accomplishes the same goal, in the same way. Granted it's a very dumb, bad, hamfisted, stupid way, but it's the method Riot's picked.
There's a very big difference between "Hey, this objective is available. You should contemplate with your team about whether you want to contest it," and "I'm going to commit 1v1 against this guy in the heat of the moment, only because I see that his W still has 5 seconds on CD."
To make it clearer: the difference is a matter of macro play vs micro play, and how it impacts global decision making and teamwork in the game.
On April 22 2016 19:32 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 07:22 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 07:06 nafta wrote:
It is a slippery slope. That phrase. I don't think it means what you think it means. On April 22 2016 07:06 nafta wrote:
Following that logic we should have all enemy summoner and ult timers cuz all you do is write it down amirite? They're not actually equivalent scenarios. Visibility of cool downs (Riot already added visibility for allied ult CDs, but I digress) and spawn times provide very different information and reactions to said information. One could debate whether or not it'd be better if the game surfaced enemy cool downs in the UI, but it's a different topic entirely. wat That's literally what nafta said lol, how is it a different topic.
Yes, that's what he said (which is why I emphasized it and how it's different). As for answering how it's different, see above.
On April 22 2016 23:08 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 07:22 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 07:06 nafta wrote:
It is a slippery slope. That phrase. I don't think it means what you think it means. On April 22 2016 07:06 nafta wrote:
Following that logic we should have all enemy summoner and ult timers cuz all you do is write it down amirite? They're not actually equivalent scenarios. Visibility of cool downs (Riot already added visibility for allied ult CDs, but I digress) and spawn times provide very different information and reactions to said information. One could debate whether or not it'd be better if the game surfaced enemy cool downs in the UI, but it's a different topic entirely. First there were no timers then the dragon dying had global sound so you had to time it manually same as nashor followed by getting timers if we saw them die. Now we get them regardless. Getting information like that makes you move to places or at least keep it mind. The same way knowing the enemy jinx doesn't have flash would make a jungler want to gank bot. Don't see how is it any different tbh.
Taking your example, the jungler won't have much to do bot if the Jinx plays safely around the fact they're missing flash. Alternatively, they might want to go gank bot anyway if the Jinx is playing way too aggressive and probably won't be able to save themselves even with flash. That kind of decision making, and the conversation around it, is an entirely different topic from objective control on top of having a very different impact on how the game plays out.
If you really don't understand the difference between laning phase and general objective control, I'd wonder if you have a strong understanding of macro play in general. Also keep in mind that I'm not arguing for or against enemy cool down timers (I honestly don't have an opinion on whether it'd be good or bad right now), just that it's not the same thing as jungle objective timers.
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It really isn't though. Getting a kill is the same as getting an objective because you then just go and take the objective since the enemy team can't do anything about it.
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On April 22 2016 07:22 iamcaustic wrote:That phrase. I don't think it means what you think it means.
That's exactly what it means lol
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On April 23 2016 01:27 nafta wrote:
It really isn't though. Getting a kill is the same as getting an objective because you then just go and take the objective since the enemy team can't do anything about it.
Except if you get a kill near no objectives. Can't really say kill=objective.
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Caustic, as a jungler it's way more important to know flash timers than buff timers, getting buffs usually won't help you as much in winning the game as getting kills/towers.
Also don't really see why commiting to a fight because you know enemy CDs is a "heat of the moment" kind of thing, just sounds like a smart play to me lol.
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On April 23 2016 01:31 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 07:22 iamcaustic wrote:On April 22 2016 07:06 nafta wrote:
It is a slippery slope. That phrase. I don't think it means what you think it means. That's exactly what it means lol
Might want to look it up sometime.
On April 23 2016 01:36 Fildun wrote:
Caustic, as a jungler it's way more important to know flash timers than buff timers, getting buffs usually won't help you as much in winning the game as getting kills/towers.
Historically, I'd agree with you. That's why Riot also changed what the buffs are, because before they didn't feel as impactful on the game. They're meant to be contestable objectives now (and why the timers were also added). Need to take in the whole context than just splicing one part of it. That said, ofc kills help win games, but they're a means to an end (kill => map control => take objective). Towers are an objective, and you can always see them on the map too.
On April 23 2016 01:36 Fildun wrote:
Also don't really see why commiting to a fight because you know enemy CDs is a "heat of the moment" kind of thing, just sounds like a smart play to me lol.
Smart play, sure, but doesn't change that it's an incredibly variable scenario (you have no way of pre-planning something like that). Objectives are pretty stable in comparison.
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I think you are the one who should look up what slippery slope means, but whatever.
As far as I know Riot only made buffs matter less and less (number nerfs, xp nerfs, gold nerfs), so not sure what you're referencing there.
I have no idea what you mean by "meant to be contestable". Do you mean that you can contest it? You can contest a lot of things, so that doesn't really say much.
The whole towers bit seems rather weird to me, we all agree towers are important but that's not what we were talking about, we were talking about the importance of blue/red.
Also not quite sure what is "incredibly variable" about the idea of "if the dude uses ability X I can trade favorably". I can plan the entire scenario except whether he'll actually use the ability or not, that's why the plan hinges on that.
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On April 23 2016 02:54 Fildun wrote:
I think you are the one who should look up what slippery slope means, but whatever.
Do we really have to do this?
a process or series of events that is hard to stop or control once it has begun and that usually leads to worse or more difficult things - source
Now tell me how adding red/blue buff respawn timers would make a completely different, theoretical feature (champ cool down timers) part of a "series of events" that cannot be reliably controlled. Riot has full control over what goes into their game.
Seriously guys, a dictionary. Use it if you don't know what something means.
On April 23 2016 02:54 Fildun wrote:
As far as I know Riot only made buffs matter less and less (number nerfs, xp nerfs, gold nerfs), so not sure what you're referencing there.
Read up on the PBE changes.
On April 23 2016 02:54 Fildun wrote:
I have no idea what you mean by "meant to be contestable". Do you mean that you can contest it? You can contest a lot of things, so that doesn't really say much.
I can clarify: I meant that Riot's making Red/Blue buffs something that you'd want to contest more heavily compared to what's currently in the game. That's their entire design goal with the changes to the buffs and the addition of global timers on them in PBE.
On April 23 2016 02:54 Fildun wrote:
The whole towers bit seems rather weird to me, we all agree towers are important but that's not what we were talking about, we were talking about the importance of blue/red.
You're the one that brought up kills and turrets, so I made mention of them. For my comment on turrets specifically, I was just making the point that important objectives tend to get clearly marked at a global level (which is what Riot is doing for the new buff timers/indicators).
On April 23 2016 02:54 Fildun wrote:
Also not quite sure what is "incredibly variable" about the idea of "if the dude uses ability X I can trade favorably". I can plan the entire scenario except whether he'll actually use the ability or not, that's why the plan hinges on that.
You can't plan for how an opponent is going to play from moment to moment. That's what I mean by variable; if an ability is on CD that you can exploit, it's the result of circumstance. Compare that to something like shotcalling a baron bait.
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EDIT: woops, didn't mean to post this. :|
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EPT
