EPT[Patch 6.1] League of Legends General Discussion - Page 27
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Gameplay discussion should go in the Gameplay Discussion thread. Gameplay discussion includes, but is not exclusive to:
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I want to make his entire post my signature. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On January 26 2016 06:36 VayneAuthority wrote: Shen remake looks incredibly strong, maybe a bit too much uniqueness. strong laner + global presence + now with an AOE dodge mechanic seems like too much to me. Do we know his laning is going to be that strong? He lost his healing from Q and his shield looks to be a bit more complicated than just pressing W before. The new W is nice for sure, but against any champ with good ability damage they're going to care a lot less about it. Though lots of %HP damage looks pretty good. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
he's still kind of played as support right now but this remake greatly buffs him as a support. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On January 26 2016 06:42 Requizen wrote: Do we know his laning is going to be that strong? He lost his healing from Q and his shield looks to be a bit more complicated than just pressing W before. The new W is nice for sure, but against any champ with good ability damage they're going to care a lot less about it. Though lots of %HP damage looks pretty good. his shield is now press any button. its a little simpler, really. moreso im just mad its super different from his lore. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On January 26 2016 06:53 PrinceXizor wrote: his shield is now press any button. its a little simpler, really. moreso im just mad its super different from his lore. I dunno if that's easier though. Before, you just hit W when you needed a shield. Now, using an ability when you have your passive up is a risk, because then they can jump in and harass you while the CD is going. So you want to hit no buttons unless you're fighting, which is kind of losing out on some of the power of having no mana. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On January 26 2016 06:44 dsyxelic wrote: i'm more interested about him as a support. he's still kind of played as support right now but this remake greatly buffs him as a support. I think he'll suck at support. He can't trade without all inning, and he has no kill pressure vs all good supports. He also has no sustain. I think he'll be awesome late from the support spot, but I don't see how you get there 2v2. Just imagine him trying to engage on Ali, Janna, Thresh, Raka... lol. Just imagine him trying to trade with Karma / Sona / Zyra.... lol. Just imagine him trying to all in Annie / Leona / Bard / raka. I don't see it. He could be sweet 2v1, but I dont think he has what it takes 2v2. If he doesn't all in, he gets poked to death and dies. To trade he basically has to dive a creep wave, which has no kill pressure because they at full HP. Thinking of him trying to 2v2 any popular support makes me laugh. I don't see it. Unless your AD matchup is like MF vs Vayne or something. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 26 2016 07:37 Alaric wrote: How is what you say different from the current Shen as a support, though? He'd be easier to harass because of his shield's management, and would bring less sustain to his laner because he can't just Q a minion for the sustain to kick in, but in terms of initiating and bursting it's not that different (and he'll actually deal more damage in a gank/all-in now). I'd say bringing less sustain for his laner is a pretty big thing, and he can't even help harass with Q. Generally, the issue with new Shen is that he is so all-in focused, so he has to be able to, essentially, trade inside of the enemy minion lines to get his damage down. Now, if you can do that early on in a duo lane, where you are typically underleveled, I don't see how its not OP with levels. An appropriately leveled Shen (given that balance) could EQW basically anything and win the trade. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
On January 26 2016 07:04 iCanada wrote: I think he'll suck at support. He can't trade without all inning, and he has no kill pressure vs all good supports. He also has no sustain. I think he'll be awesome late from the support spot, but I don't see how you get there 2v2. Just imagine him trying to engage on Ali, Janna, Thresh, Raka... lol. Just imagine him trying to trade with Karma / Sona / Zyra.... lol. Just imagine him trying to all in Annie / Leona / Bard / raka. I don't see it. He could be sweet 2v1, but I dont think he has what it takes 2v2. If he doesn't all in, he gets poked to death and dies. To trade he basically has to dive a creep wave, which has no kill pressure because they at full HP. Thinking of him trying to 2v2 any popular support makes me laugh. I don't see it. Unless your AD matchup is like MF vs Vayne or something. how is it any worse than shen support now that is still played professionally? if you're talking about purely soloq then sure but I think that's more a knock against shen in general as a support right now rather than refuting my claim that shen support is buffed. also please don't pick him into karma janna zyra etc. just because a support has counter picks doesn't make it bad. just means you can't freely blindpick and expect to get a good matchup all the time. not like tank supports aren't vogue right now so one should have plenty opportunities to play shen support without fearing a karma support or something. also you seem way too heavily focused on how shen WINS lane instead of his utility. you don't have to always be in a matchup where you win lane to be a useful support. trundle for one comes to mind. On January 26 2016 07:37 Alaric wrote: How is what you say different from the current Shen as a support, though? He'd be easier to harass because of his shield's management, and would bring less sustain to his laner because he can't just Q a minion for the sustain to kick in, but in terms of initiating and bursting it's not that different (and he'll actually deal more damage in a gank/all-in now). he's not any easier to harass. shen didn't magically have his W make him unable to be harassed. his W is probably his most useless skill in lane right now. the shield value is garbage. I much rather have the equivalent on his passive especially since ki strike happens to be more useless for shen support. his Q in lane is also near useless for sustain as support. you can't effectively refresh the duration and it's only like what, ~5 health sustain total? it's way more significant as a sololaner when you can just last hit minions with it. at least his new Q gives some sort of gank assist/cc now (35% slow). before this his only cc was taunt as support. old Q was nice not for the sustain but for the ability to just freely chuck Q's at melee supports (who you usually want to pick into). alright now his W. a slightly better version of his new passive is now replaced by a fucking 1.75s AOE area that makes you invincible vs auto attackers. even completely ignoring the uses of this in lane, in teamfights this is insane. E is basically the same R is the same except now you have a shen that can do everything old shen after ulting did but with an anti-AA barrier and a slow to chase if needed. so what are we gaining and sacrificing? sacrificing: - if played near optimally, ~5hp of sustain every 6s - spammable short range q - ~60 hp shield he doesn't need to use another spell for every 9s gaining: - 35% slow when chasing enemies - anti aa barrier - better skirmishing/teamfights/all-in the only thing I'll kinda miss here is the spammable q. like holy shit that W alone makes it all worth it. shen always had a weak laning phase so you always want to pick into melee supports that won't abuse him as hard. all this did was make the times you want to pick support shen even better and while yes his bad matchups got worse in terms of laning, I think the trade off is worth it since you actually have way more opportunities to make plays or make good trades/allins with smart use of your Q/W. before, you just took it up the ass and tried to survive off the breadcrumbs of sustain from shitty non-solo lane Q. | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
Before Shen lost trades, now he doesn't trade. I played a ton of old Shen support. I just don't see it. Before he could get by, now forget it. Unless you 2v1 ing I guess. I think that will be strong. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On January 26 2016 09:29 iCanada wrote: You make it sound like Q heal is nothing. It was basically 2 dblades worth of heals when used right. That's a huge deal for your AD. Before Shen lost trades, now he doesn't trade. I played a ton of old Shen support. I just don't see it. Before he could get by, now forget it. Unless you 2v1 ing I guess. I think that will be strong. Well now he doesn't have to spend a whole bunch of energy just to put on a dinky shield. Depending on the cooldown, he can use it in every trade and make up for the "lost" healing with shield absorption. If they break through the shield, it is effectively better than healing. If they don't, then he's winning the trade regardless. Derp, neglected you were talking about support because lack of quotes. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
On January 26 2016 09:29 iCanada wrote: You make it sound like Q heal is nothing. It was basically 2 dblades worth of heals when used right. That's a huge deal for your AD. Before Shen lost trades, now he doesn't trade. I played a ton of old Shen support. I just don't see it. Before he could get by, now forget it. Unless you 2v1 ing I guess. I think that will be strong. that's a perfectly fine trade off. champ with bad trades sacrifices much of the little trading power he had for better skills elsewhere and a utility spell that can't be found anywhere else (anti aa zone) he's already a niche pick right now so all it does it makes those situations where you pick shen even better and more of a dumbass if you actually blind pick it or pick it into a bad matchup. I think that's great for shen support as a whole since he's not one of those blind pick generalist supports that can be picked any game. but if your argument was simply 'in total shen's matchups suffered a net loss' then fine fair point, but I think that it's not a very interesting one given that shen right now isn't meant to be picked into everything. sure I can see why it's bad if you're a support shen main who just wants to play shen whenever but seems good for people who actually pick different champs in different situations. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
 I'll contain it in the video/images thread or make a separate one if I actually end up making more of these but wanted to get some attention for now :p | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On January 26 2016 12:29 cLutZ wrote: ^^Yea. Also, you could get hilarious Rivington calls like the infamous "Party in the bramble pit" the only think I caught on first watch was the terrible elise cocoon, which also reminded me of "why the hell does he always say blue suede shoes?" It's a reference to the Elvis song, where he doesn't want his fresh kicks scuffed because it make him look fly while he busts a move. The idea is the person is dancing around the attacks effortlessly. Yeah, that's right, I put an Elvis song in current rap culture context. | ||
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