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DiracMonopole
United States1555 Posts
On January 21 2016 11:47 Frolossus wrote: i still feel like people vastly over estimate the importance of runes, particularly for new players. after ~20-25 minutes most rune pages don't do a whole lot. CDR, movespeed, health %, crit/crit damage etc. There are plenty of runes that dont fall off relative to item stats. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On January 21 2016 12:19 DiracMonopole wrote: CDR, movespeed, health %, crit/crit damage etc. There are plenty of runes that dont fall off relative to item stats. even if there were not, riots target is 33 minute games. if you only have 8 minutes of runes not matters and 25 minutes of them mattering then thats still a huge portion of the game. Not to mention expanding your champion pool beyond 16 doesn't do much for new players either, so giving them more ways to adapt and use the few champs they know is more important than giving them new champs they don't, even if its less exciting. Runes are ultimately a more important IP purchase. You can play poppy and ashe, spend 900 IP and not need any more champs to play any role, but you need runes. for different matchups and different strategies. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On January 21 2016 12:19 DiracMonopole wrote: CDR, movespeed, health %, crit/crit damage etc. There are plenty of runes that dont fall off relative to item stats. i did say most rune pages. stuff like crit and health % are rarely if ever used. movespeed and cdr do have the best cases but are only common on mids, some jungles and supports. and you can totally play most characters without ever touching either of those runes they also give way less tangible laning benefits to other rune setups. On January 21 2016 12:36 PrinceXizor wrote: even if there were not, riots target is 33 minute games. if you only have 8 minutes of runes not matters and 25 minutes of them mattering then thats still a huge portion of the game. Not to mention expanding your champion pool beyond 16 doesn't do much for new players either, so giving them more ways to adapt and use the few champs they know is more important than giving them new champs they don't, even if its less exciting. Runes are ultimately a more important IP purchase. You can play poppy and ashe, spend 900 IP and not need any more champs to play any role, but you need runes. for different matchups and different strategies. the point is that lane mechanics and good trades matter much more than any rune page ever will until really high elo. i think new players need to focus on having good fundamental gameplay more than min/maxing runes and masteries. it'll take them much further in terms of ranked. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On January 21 2016 09:36 lilwisper wrote: I can't think of any PvP game that allows folks who know what they are doing to lurk around true beginners as long as LoL does. It is really unfriendly. It goes against all of that ranting before that they did about being more welcoming to new people. Then again they did a 180 on being less convoluted about their game systems and such. I mean I think the leveling process is pretty terrible and should be removed, but this point isn't very true. It only takes like 3-4 wins to get put into the 5 smurf v 5 smurf games. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On January 21 2016 12:47 Slusher wrote: I mean I think the leveling process is pretty terrible and should be removed, but this point isn't very true. It only takes like 3-4 wins to get put into the 5 smurf v 5 smurf games. how else would you handle it though? fresh 30, new players even from other mobas don't understand much about how the game works after the 250~ games it takes to get to 30 and are absolutely not ready for ranked. at least how it is, the game forces you to take things slow and learn as much as possible. if anything it should take longer. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 21 2016 11:47 Frolossus wrote: i still feel like people vastly over estimate the importance of runes, particularly for new players. after ~20-25 minutes most rune pages don't do a whole lot. Obviously, in plastic 5, runes don't mean shit. But, the problem is as a person climbs ladder, lack of runes become a serious "invisible" wall to a lot of players. Which sucks, because majority of players will get champs with IP instead of runes. also, majority of games are determined by the first 20 minutes in solo queue. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On January 21 2016 12:48 Frolossus wrote: how else would you handle it though? 16 unlocked champions, 1 completely full rune page. thats still like 20+ wins On January 21 2016 12:48 Frolossus wrote: fresh 30, new players even from other mobas don't understand much about how the game works after the 250~ games it takes to get to 30 and are absolutely not ready for ranked. I don't understand why you feel this strongly about not being ready. I think this sort of lack of trust in the player is the kind of thing that gets Riot into corners so often. Like why not let the player decide when they feel comfortable playing ranked? If they think they are gods gift after 0 games and wind up in bronze what was lost? | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On January 21 2016 12:58 wei2coolman wrote: Obviously, in plastic 5, runes don't mean shit. But, the problem is as a person climbs ladder, lack of runes become a serious "invisible" wall to a lot of players. Which sucks, because majority of players will get champs with IP instead of runes. also, majority of games are determined by the first 20 minutes in solo queue. yeah but runes aren't gonna be the reason you win or lose lane let alone the whole game until very high elo. in any case it's not something new players need to worry about until they've played at least their first 1-2000 games people just look for things to bitch about or deflect blame away from the real issue which is simply not trying to get better at the game. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On January 21 2016 12:37 Frolossus wrote: the point is that lane mechanics and good trades matter much more than any rune page ever will until really high elo. i think new players need to focus on having good fundamental gameplay more than min/maxing runes and masteries. it'll take them much further in terms of ranked. Isn't that all the more reason to give starter sets of runes to players? so they have one less thing to try to figure out when they are learning these things? so they don't have to focus on runes and have a standard set of acceptable ones while they learn the game, and what runes they might need for matchups? Also for a lot of champions, runes/masteries are the difference between a win and a loss at similar levels of skill. "at high levels of skill" is just a cop out for saying "get good" instead of learning the intimacies of the system you are using. yes, if i learn to hit every skillshot, and dodge every incoming ability with super human talent, I will improve over learning what runes are good for poppy in certain matchups. but if i could learn to do those things, then i'd be playing vs people who also could learn to do that, and then the runes would matter again. because the other guy could know how to use runes AND play as well as me. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On January 21 2016 12:58 wei2coolman wrote: Obviously, in plastic 5, runes don't mean shit. But, the problem is as a person climbs ladder, lack of runes become a serious "invisible" wall to a lot of players. Which sucks, because majority of players will get champs with IP instead of runes. also, majority of games are determined by the first 20 minutes in solo queue. Eh at the same time, you can pretty much roll Attack dmg/Mpen reds Armor Yellows MR Blues AP Quints/(Attack based quints of choice) And call it a day with two rune pages. The rune differences are fairly negligible imo until you get some very precise matchups where every bit counts. When I play on my main with an optimized set of 20 runes and then on my alt with totally crap runes (I'm still using tier 2.5 runes from the halloween event as an example) They both get to similar ranked games with really no difference between the two. Yeah granted sometimes I'll wish I had the full armor page for a specific matchup to play into or w/e but I can just easily pick or play around that matchup tbh. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On January 21 2016 13:08 PrinceXizor wrote: Isn't that all the more reason to give starter sets of runes to players? so they have one less thing to try to figure out when they are learning these things? so they don't have to focus on runes and have a standard set of acceptable ones while they learn the game, and what runes they might need for matchups? Also for a lot of champions, runes/masteries are the difference between a win and a loss at similar levels of skill. "at high levels of skill" is just a cop out for saying "get good" instead of learning the intimacies of the system you are using. yes, if i learn to hit every skillshot, and dodge every incoming ability with super human talent, I will improve over learning what runes are good for poppy in certain matchups. but if i could learn to do those things, then i'd be playing vs people who also could learn to do that, and then the runes would matter again. because the other guy could know how to use runes AND play as well as me. i feel like people would complain about all the runes that are sometimes used but not in those standard sets just like they are complaining right now about not having standard sets. as it is 3 basic runepages doesn't take very long to unlock if you actually want them instead of dumping your ip into expensive champions. i recall getting 3 runepages within the first 4-5 months of playing and that was ~6 years ago before they reduced the price on everything. On January 21 2016 13:08 PrinceXizor wrote: Isn't that all the more reason to give starter sets of runes to players? so they have one less thing to try to figure out when they are learning these things? so they don't have to focus on runes and have a standard set of acceptable ones while they learn the game, and what runes they might need for matchups? Also for a lot of champions, runes/masteries are the difference between a win and a loss at similar levels of skill. "at high levels of skill" is just a cop out for saying "get good" instead of learning the intimacies of the system you are using. yes, if i learn to hit every skillshot, and dodge every incoming ability with super human talent, I will improve over learning what runes are good for poppy in certain matchups. but if i could learn to do those things, then i'd be playing vs people who also could learn to do that, and then the runes would matter again. because the other guy could know how to use runes AND play as well as me. this is kinda bullshit. even at similar levels of skill, if you lose lane your options are go figure out where you misplayed or go figure out how to lose lane properly so the rest of your team can carry you. it has nothing to do with a slightly more optimized runepage that most of the playerbase doesn't understand how to utilize to give them the advantage they are looking for. by the time you play enough games for runes to actually matter you'll have more than enough ip to spend on the basics + many of the situationals | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On January 21 2016 13:15 Frolossus wrote: i feel like people would complain about all the runes that are sometimes used but not in those standard sets just like they are complaining right now about not having standard sets. as it is 3 basic runepages doesn't take very long to unlock if you actually want them instead of dumping your ip into expensive champions. i recall getting 3 runepages within the first 4-5 months of playing and that was ~6 years ago before they reduced the price on everything. The problem is runes are this empty void with no guidance. They are obtuse. its nearly impossible for a new player to figure out which runes are good without sitting down with a calculator or an online guide. and even then they'd have to know the champs they like playing and the matchups. having free or extremely cheap archetypal runes lets people who want to focus on play not have to concern themselves with runes, and lets players who want what runes give, have at least SOME guidance instead of being thrown to the wolves. Runes are not sexy like new champs are, so unless you get some for free, new players will often overlook them, and be objectively worse than people of the same skill level with proper runes set up (because they had a friend help them, or looked it up online or whatever). in the worst cases, you won't have any Ip to correct the issue because you kept unlocking new champs instead of doing the right thing and saving for runes instead of getting a champ because its new and shiny. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On January 21 2016 13:19 PrinceXizor wrote: The problem is runes are this empty void with no guidance. They are obtuse. its nearly impossible for a new player to figure out which runes are good without sitting down with a calculator or an online guide. and even then they'd have to know the champs they like playing and the matchups. having free or extremely cheap archetypal runes lets people who want to focus on play not have to concern themselves with runes, and lets players who want what runes give, have at least SOME guidance instead of being thrown to the wolves. Runes are not sexy like new champs are, so unless you get some for free, new players will often overlook them, and be objectively worse than people of the same skill level with proper runes set up (because they had a friend help them, or looked it up online or whatever) just because someone has runes, does not in any way indicate that they understand how to use them to create an advantage. 2 bronze kids, one with runes and one without doesn't make any difference on the impact of the game because there are 100 other things that both players should be spending their attention on that have a much bigger effect on who wins or loses resources should be put into teaching people how to play the game, not whether or not they should get a ~15% stat boost in x because y or z IMO all that giving people free runes does is promote smurfing even more. new players don't care, smurfs do. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On January 21 2016 13:21 Frolossus wrote: just because someone has runes, does not in any way indicate that they understand how to use them to create an advantage. 2 bronze kids, one with runes and one without doesn't make any difference on the impact of the game because there are 100 other things that both players should be spending their attention on that have a much bigger effect on who wins or loses I.. I just fundamentally disagree. Stat differences are a HUGE deal. Its why having a level advantage is a big deal in lane. your abilities dealing more damage, and you moving faster, taking less damage, healing more whatever makes you objectively better than an opponent of the same skill who cannot do these things. I mean technically one player who doesn't skill up an ability and another that does shouldnt make difference on the impact of the game because there are other things that both players can spend attention on that has a bigger effect on wins. Apdo did this. beating players lesser than him without skilling their main ability, in mirrors. But it doesn't make it fair or reasonable, nor does it take into any account the matchmaking system, which attempts to match you WITH YOUR PEERS. if i'm as skilled as you, and you have runes and i do not. i am disadvantaged. it may not be an obvious disadvantage, but i should lose every trade that would otherwise be even. i should lose lane, and if our lane has an impact on the game, we lost the game because of it. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On January 21 2016 13:26 PrinceXizor wrote: I.. I just fundamentally disagree. Stat differences are a HUGE deal. Its why having a level advantage is a big deal in lane. your abilities dealing more damage, and you moving faster, taking less damage, healing more whatever makes you objectively better than an opponent of the same skill who cannot do these things. I mean technically one player who doesn't skill up an ability and another that does shouldnt make difference on the impact of the game because there are other things that both players can spend attention on that has a bigger effect on wins. Apdo did this. beating players lesser than him without skilling their main ability, in mirrors. But it doesn't make it fair or reasonable, nor does it take into any account the matchmaking system, which attempts to match you WITH YOUR PEERS. if i'm as skilled as you, and you have runes and i do not. i am disadvantaged. it may not be an obvious disadvantage, but i should lose every trade that would otherwise be even. i should lose lane, and if our lane has an impact on the game, we lost the game because of it. if you are looking to get better you should be looking at gameplay not stats. it's not a huge advantage if you don't understand why or how to use it. what good is extra AP or mpen when you miss your skill shots or waste your mana. what good is flat AD if you miss your CS despite having the runes to help you CS anyway? you think it's a big deal, but in reality it isn't at all. the only case where runes do make an impact is for some junglers that have notably weaker first clears. itemization, runes, masteries and whatever else are all bullshit distractions that people blame because they don't understand the real reasons they lose. as long as your are doing things part way correctly and actively trying to make fewer mistakes in how you play the game you'll win way more than having a shiny new rune page will ever, ever give you. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On January 21 2016 13:19 PrinceXizor wrote: The problem is runes are this empty void with no guidance. They are obtuse. its nearly impossible for a new player to figure out which runes are good without sitting down with a calculator or an online guide. and even then they'd have to know the champs they like playing and the matchups. having free or extremely cheap archetypal runes lets people who want to focus on play not have to concern themselves with runes, and lets players who want what runes give, have at least SOME guidance instead of being thrown to the wolves. Runes are not sexy like new champs are, so unless you get some for free, new players will often overlook them, and be objectively worse than people of the same skill level with proper runes set up (because they had a friend help them, or looked it up online or whatever). in the worst cases, you won't have any Ip to correct the issue because you kept unlocking new champs instead of doing the right thing and saving for runes instead of getting a champ because its new and shiny. Which is kind of why Phreak released a youtube video yesterday talking about runes that was ~38 minutes long and has been on the front page of /r/leagueoflegends since then. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On January 21 2016 13:29 Gahlo wrote: Which is kind of why Phreak released a youtube video yesterday talking about runes that was ~38 minutes long and has been on the front page of /r/leagueoflegends since then. Yeah but. like i said, you shouldn't need to look to outside help or a calculator to begin to understand runes and rune pages.There's little difference between watching a video or visiting reddit than looking at a guide online. both are extra-client ways to learn something that is absolutely not taught to new players in the game. It's possible to play to 30 without even knowing anything about runes. that's insane for something so fundamental to the game. I mean damn can you imagine if the same thing was applied to summoner spells? Fro, repeating "get good" and "play better than you are" as reason to keep new players in the dark about runes is completely missing the point. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
Not every player actually cares to play the game min-max style believe it or not. There's a low looooooooooooooooooow ELO (even in norms) where half the players don't take flash and having missing runes half the time and they play the game just the same. if any actually chose to take the extra step to do literally two minutes worth of research to get a good idea of runes, they can. Forcefeeding them min maxed runes isn't going to help them. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On January 21 2016 13:32 PrinceXizor wrote: Yeah but. like i said, you shouldn't need to look to outside help or a calculator to begin to understand runes and rune pages.There's little difference between watching a video or visiting reddit than looking at a guide online. both are extra-client ways to learn something that is absolutely not taught to new players in the game. It's possible to play to 30 without even knowing anything about runes. that's insane for something so fundamental to the game. Fro, repeating "get good" and "play better than you are" as reason to keep new players in the dark about runes is completely missing the point. it's not a case of get good or not, it's a case of what you need to pay attention to. you aren't keeping anything in the dark. you are forcing players to learn why they need something before they get to use it it's the same reason that teachers force you to do math by hand or do a proof before showing you how to do things the quick and easy way. just giving them runes doesn't teach them anything about how to use them. acquiring them slowly and experimenting with them so they can work out the different situations where and how they apply does. | ||
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