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On October 17 2015 12:31 OhTwoMise wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 20:01 nafta wrote:
If you wanna play mid viktor/lulu/karthus(don't blind pick kart though) are the easiest to play and easy to be useful with. I think Lulu is a lot like Caitlyn in the sense that she gives the illusion of being easy because of her relative safety early game and the way they often feel like they're contributing a lot even if they aren't really doing anything. For instance, it's good enough in a lot of games to just E+W your AD on cooldown, but it's certainly not optimal in all of them, and it's sometimes actively bad. And I think a lot of people fall into the trap of running the same baseline strategy on Lulu every game (whether it's buffbot or something else) and sort of throwing up their hands and saying they were destined to lose in the games where it doesn't work. But Lulu's true strength is her versatility. Her decision tree is among the largest in the game. She's excellent at teamfighting, split-pushing, and skirmishing, but building for one of these aspects makes her substantially worse at the others. All of her spells are modal; in any given teamfight, you have more options than probably anyone else in the game, and though multiple paths might lead to a win, only one is optimal.
When you are playing a role you don't play the most important thing is having a champion that can lane safely, can be useful when behind and has a low skill floor. Just because she has a lot of options doesn't make it hard to pickup.
Not to mention there really aren't all that many. The only limiting factor of lulu is she isn't that good when there isn't a good champion on your team for you to buff but is still decent.
Caitlyn is not useful when behind which is why she isn't a good champion for new players.
Kinda funny to me how every single kr game the jungler starts on bot side while on eu top/jg dj and bot does a camp.
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On October 17 2015 12:31 OhTwoMise wrote:
But it's been this way since pre-season 1 and probably somewhere around once a month when I'm actively reading this thread, someone pops in with a new "bug" that is the CC-windup-animation-interaction working as intended.
Not that actively then. This time it was me, and to reiterate (in a spoiler 'cause it's long and not pertaining to the current discussion):
+ Show Spoiler +- Rengar ults, I have a pink nearby and see him.
- I cast Fiddle's Q, but am not in range yet.
- Rengar pounces, getting in Q range, with his empowered Q activated.
- while I'm casting Q (it has the slightest cast time, but still a cast time), he auto-resets with standard Q.
- he's now feared. CC icon, my spell on cooldown, mana expended, everything. He autos me twice more, regular autos, and I die.
I know about queueing an auto (and some spells) using another spell's cast time to go around cc, and I know that you can't interrupt most animations (was a component in the Garen/Irelia match-up where in the time it takes me to E him after he presses Q and runs at me, he gets into melee range and starts the aa animation for Q; he's stunned but still completes it).
Of course there are some exceptions like Ahri's Charm (it's even stronger than Rammus' taunt because it will stop someone mid-dash, while Rammus will taunt then and they'll only start moving back to him after the dash finishes), but that's what they are, exceptions. (Plus Ahri needs to be one of Riot's special snowflakes.)
The thing about queueing an ability, though, is that you need to be able to actually cast it. If you're oom, already cc'd, or the ability is on cd, it doesn't matter that at the point you'd be casting it in the queue you'd have enough mana or off cd: when you want to issue the cast command, you can't, so no queueing.
Rengar's empowered abilities replace his standard abilities in the spell bar, and when you cast Q it doesn't go on cd/lose the "empowered" alternative set display until you've hit something. So you can't cast empQ, then queue another Q until you've hit something with the empowered auto, which makes it impossible to queue it.
(I'm not sure if you can queue an empowered spell into the normal version of another spell either, what with his ability sets swapping and all. I guess Jayce/Nidalee/Elise can't queue up alternate form abilities either since they'd need the R cast to complete first, even if it's instant?)
And you can add to it that he kept attacking through the fear, it wasn't a single aa. It happened several times, I only remember the 2 on myself, and it was 2 autos and 3 autos (I assume he'd have continued but I was dead by then). You can queue an auto or spell using the animations, but not several like this.
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Do you have a replay of that alaric?
Although not the same at all, I do encounter more 'weird things' in 5.20 than before. The pathing seemed to have worsened quite a bit; sometimes I move to a location opposite of where I'm clicking, without any obstacles in the way. And sometimes minions or champions seem to randomly teleport into the location they're heading, the largest being around 400 in range.
The pathing thing might have been there al along, but i just didn't notice, but I'm 100% percent sure i never saw things randomly teleport before.
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I noticed (when fooling around pre-2 minutes, spamming laugh, running around each other, etc.) that the collision size of units seems bigger. I was making wide circles running around a LeBlanc, rather than walk pretty close to (but not through) her.
It's probably related to the bug that made 2 units close to each other accelerate (you know about that one if you've played Broodwar) that they finally fixed in this patch. But if they did it by making collision size bigger or by preventing units from moving too close to each other then I don't see how it can't be poised to worsen pathing, yeah. :/
Haven't seen any teleport though.
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Yeah the pathing has definitely been messed up. I've been on botlane and clicked midlane and have started walking in opposite direction(and no that wasn't a misclick) and all. It also feels much more difficult being a melee champion because the pathing is really strange with minions. Maybe that's why I've enjoyed playing Kassadin and Fizz the most lately(And btw, I stopped playing Kassadin for years because of all the nerfs, but after trying him out again impulsively, he's still just as OP and he's never banned)
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On October 17 2015 21:28 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 12:31 OhTwoMise wrote:
But it's been this way since pre-season 1 and probably somewhere around once a month when I'm actively reading this thread, someone pops in with a new "bug" that is the CC-windup-animation-interaction working as intended. Not that actively then. This time it was me, and to reiterate (in a spoiler 'cause it's long and not pertaining to the current discussion): + Show Spoiler +- Rengar ults, I have a pink nearby and see him.
- I cast Fiddle's Q, but am not in range yet.
- Rengar pounces, getting in Q range, with his empowered Q activated.
- while I'm casting Q (it has the slightest cast time, but still a cast time), he auto-resets with standard Q.
- he's now feared. CC icon, my spell on cooldown, mana expended, everything. He autos me twice more, regular autos, and I die.
I know about queueing an auto (and some spells) using another spell's cast time to go around cc, and I know that you can't interrupt most animations (was a component in the Garen/Irelia match-up where in the time it takes me to E him after he presses Q and runs at me, he gets into melee range and starts the aa animation for Q; he's stunned but still completes it).
Of course there are some exceptions like Ahri's Charm (it's even stronger than Rammus' taunt because it will stop someone mid-dash, while Rammus will taunt then and they'll only start moving back to him after the dash finishes), but that's what they are, exceptions. (Plus Ahri needs to be one of Riot's special snowflakes.)
The thing about queueing an ability, though, is that you need to be able to actually cast it. If you're oom, already cc'd, or the ability is on cd, it doesn't matter that at the point you'd be casting it in the queue you'd have enough mana or off cd: when you want to issue the cast command, you can't, so no queueing.
Rengar's empowered abilities replace his standard abilities in the spell bar, and when you cast Q it doesn't go on cd/lose the "empowered" alternative set display until you've hit something. So you can't cast empQ, then queue another Q until you've hit something with the empowered auto, which makes it impossible to queue it.
(I'm not sure if you can queue an empowered spell into the normal version of another spell either, what with his ability sets swapping and all. I guess Jayce/Nidalee/Elise can't queue up alternate form abilities either since they'd need the R cast to complete first, even if it's instant?)
And you can add to it that he kept attacking through the fear, it wasn't a single aa. It happened several times, I only remember the 2 on myself, and it was 2 autos and 3 autos (I assume he'd have continued but I was dead by then). You can queue an auto or spell using the animations, but not several like this.
Guilty, though a year or so ago I used to read it very actively and it was prevalent then. A lot of the time no one identifies it as the windup-interaction feature and it gets dismissed as an isolated bug.
Hydra/Tiamat go a long way toward explaining your scenario (but don't quite get there alone). Can't offer you any more without seeing a replay. My guess is it has something to do with Rengar's dash-attack being treated as a spell and not an auto, which would theoretically allow dash + queued auto + queued Q + queued Tiamat.
On October 17 2015 19:25 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 12:31 OhTwoMise wrote:On October 16 2015 20:01 nafta wrote:
If you wanna play mid viktor/lulu/karthus(don't blind pick kart though) are the easiest to play and easy to be useful with. I think Lulu is a lot like Caitlyn in the sense that she gives the illusion of being easy because of her relative safety early game and the way they often feel like they're contributing a lot even if they aren't really doing anything. For instance, it's good enough in a lot of games to just E+W your AD on cooldown, but it's certainly not optimal in all of them, and it's sometimes actively bad. And I think a lot of people fall into the trap of running the same baseline strategy on Lulu every game (whether it's buffbot or something else) and sort of throwing up their hands and saying they were destined to lose in the games where it doesn't work. But Lulu's true strength is her versatility. Her decision tree is among the largest in the game. She's excellent at teamfighting, split-pushing, and skirmishing, but building for one of these aspects makes her substantially worse at the others. All of her spells are modal; in any given teamfight, you have more options than probably anyone else in the game, and though multiple paths might lead to a win, only one is optimal. When you are playing a role you don't play the most important thing is having a champion that can lane safely, can be useful when behind and has a low skill floor. Just because she has a lot of options doesn't make it hard to pickup. Not to mention there really aren't all that many. The only limiting factor of lulu is she isn't that good when there isn't a good champion on your team for you to buff but is still decent. Caitlyn is not useful when behind which is why she isn't a good champion for new players. Kinda funny to me how every single kr game the jungler starts on bot side while on eu top/jg dj and bot does a camp.
Mostly disagree. I've seen a lot of Lulus do next to nothing because they don't understand how the hero works outside of lane. To be fair, I play at a very low level a lot of the time. I won't play at all with less than a 3-stack and a lot of my friends are quite bad (which means the pubs are also quite bad).
On October 17 2015 12:48 Sufficiency wrote:
Cancelling in mid animation is a pretty terrible idea anyway. If the spell is not an actual "channel", it should just go through instead of getting interrupted accidentally.
One of the reasons why animations shouldn't be interrupted is because the animations are usually 0.1-0.2 seconds long; it's not actually possible for a player to react to an ANIMATION to interrupt. So if it is allowed you end up in a situation where you can randomly get interrupted because someone just happened to have thrown something at you while you are casting an ability.
Don't agree with this at all. There are plays to be made other than reaction. You ever play Guild Wars? It's not uncommon to interrupt .25 second casts with knockdowns/interrupts that take longer to cast than the targeted spell.
It's also not unreasonable to just put longer cast animations in. Obviously Riot didn't, but because they made the short animation choice does not automatically make interruptible spells a bad idea.
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Guild War does have interruptions, but most spells in Guild War have longer activation time (often 0.75-1 seconds long, 0.25 is minimum without modifications). Also, Guild War has a series of mechanics on interruptions - it's not simple as "do this, and the spell stops.". IIRC a lot of the interruption mechanics is designed to counterplay healers.
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On October 16 2015 20:01 nafta wrote:
If you wanna play mid viktor/lulu/karthus(don't blind pick kart though) are the easiest to play and easy to be useful with.
Azir isn't really all that hard to play tbh. It is just most people in soloq aren't fans of using their brains.
Veigar is usualy banned, tf is decent but can be difficult to not feed on him in some matchups, ahri is just solid and lux is ok.
Maybe Karthus. But Viktor is kind of weak at the moment and Lulu definitely needs the right team to work with.(Viktor as well, but Viktor mainly needs coordination between your team) You would be much better off with something like Galio, Malzahar, Annie, or Lux.
On October 16 2015 21:45 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 00:25 NeoIllusions wrote:
With a lot of poke based champions and team comps, they're incredibly team reliant. Azir's biggest strength is obviously his zone control. If he can keep the enemy at arm's length, 2-4 soldiers are going to do a lot of work.
Problem with solo q is that communication is nearly non-existant. Azir's team isn't going to peel for him optimally and if the enemy hard engages with CC, he's toast. Most Azir can manage themselves with his dash, wall and pseudo-turret to fall back on. But if he gets stun locked and there's no peel, he's as good as dead.
Solo q rewards aggression far more than defensive play. It's also why assassins Mid are so prevalent.
Edit: if you want a solo q mid, pick something that can win lane, then hard carry late game. See sentence above. errr idk dude but defensive play is all I ever did and out of my 999 problems climbing ladder wasn't one of them the easiest way to phrase it is, it's really really hard to lose if you never die and if you don't lose you win never die=almost always win yeah, agree with Numy and Prog. Not doing retarded shit is the dominant soloQ strategy.
Increasing the variance is always optimal for the losing team. When you're ahead it makes a lot of sense to play safe, you're going to win eventually in all likelihood and you don't want to F that up. When you're behind on the other hand you're not going to win eventually, so you've got to get something done, some advantage. Play too safe and you lose. Sure things can get super bad super fast if you fail your play, but losing in 20 minutes has the same effect on your MMR as losing in 30 minutes.
That being said, the biggest thing that you can do in Soloqueue is figure out who can lead and follow them or lead yourself. Harmony of action is so much more important than making risky or not risky plays for the vast majority of games. 5 people all-inning a bad play will beat 4 people half heatedly making a good one.
@Alaric not sure what to say. That type of buffering was removed from the game a long time ago, maybe some legacy code snuck into the last patch
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"viktor kind of weak at the moment" Considering you were the person who kept saying viktor before the nerfs wasn't that strong this statement is irrelevant.
All you need for lulu is a strong bruiser/juggernaut or trist/jinx/vayne/kalista. Pretty sure chances are you will have one of those in almost every game.
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When I play again I am going to learn how to play Lulu and krndandaman is going to teach me.
It will be magical and purple.
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I think you're a lot more likely to lose games by going for big plays than playing safe in soloq. With a mentality of playing safe, you can somewhat mitigate a skill disadvantage by trying to prevent plays through warding, and not letting them feed off you.
That doesn't mean you can't capitalize on enemy mistakes, but it's more important to not get baited into bad situations and die needlessly, at least in soloq.
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On October 18 2015 18:08 nafta wrote:
"viktor kind of weak at the moment" Considering you were the person who kept saying viktor before the nerfs wasn't that strong this statement is irrelevant.
All you need for lulu is a strong bruiser/juggernaut or trist/jinx/vayne/kalista. Pretty sure chances are you will have one of those in almost every game.
Fine Viktor in his current iteration sucks. He super sucks and is one of the worst overall mids you could pick, even if he has some use in competitive games. It's like telling people to play LeBlanc after the nerfs. She sucked before the nerfs too and then they nerfed her and she sucked more
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On October 19 2015 05:48 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2015 18:08 nafta wrote:
"viktor kind of weak at the moment" Considering you were the person who kept saying viktor before the nerfs wasn't that strong this statement is irrelevant.
All you need for lulu is a strong bruiser/juggernaut or trist/jinx/vayne/kalista. Pretty sure chances are you will have one of those in almost every game. Fine Viktor in his current iteration sucks. He super sucks and is one of the worst overall mids you could pick, even if he has some use in competitive games. It's like telling people to play LeBlanc after the nerfs. She sucked before the nerfs too and then they nerfed her and she sucked more
ayy lmao
User was warned for this post
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Goumindong wtf are you smoking brohan and where can I buy it
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On October 19 2015 05:52 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 05:48 Goumindong wrote:On October 18 2015 18:08 nafta wrote:
"viktor kind of weak at the moment" Considering you were the person who kept saying viktor before the nerfs wasn't that strong this statement is irrelevant.
All you need for lulu is a strong bruiser/juggernaut or trist/jinx/vayne/kalista. Pretty sure chances are you will have one of those in almost every game. Fine Viktor in his current iteration sucks. He super sucks and is one of the worst overall mids you could pick, even if he has some use in competitive games. It's like telling people to play LeBlanc after the nerfs. She sucked before the nerfs too and then they nerfed her and she sucked more ayy lmao
Viktor has a 46% ish win rate in Soloqueue mid. That is good for 39/46. Ahead of Orianna, Cassiopea, LeBlanc, Ekko, Kassadin, Azir, and Ryze. Would you recommend playing one of those?The 7 above him are, Syndra, Varus, Jayce, Ziggs, Teemo, Zed, Lulu. I know you recommended Lulu would you recommend any other? He isn't good, many other champions will hard clear mid just like he can, except they will also win games.
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I forgot the only thing that matters is winrate+playrate in champion.gg. I am sorry.
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Win rate is a pretty good metric, especially when you consider the fact that Viktor isn't even half hard to play.
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Clearly elise isn't the best jungler in the game either since she has only 50.39% win rate with 14.36% play rate. ayy lmao
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Clearly Quinn top > Darius/Olaf/Lulu top, since Quinn has 52.33% winrate.
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EPT
