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On October 19 2015 06:05 nafta wrote:
I forgot the only thing that matters is winrate in champion.gg. I am sorry.
Winning games is indeed the only thing that matters. (well plus a sample size large enough to determine whether or not its indicative)
If you have a better sample of win rates i would love to see it. Because i go to Lolking and i see basically the same numbers repeated in all divisions. Bronze? Sucks. Silver? Sucks. Gold? Sucks. Plat? Sucks. Diamond? Sucks.
Its even moreso bad to suggest Viktor to players who want an easy mid because Viktor is a high skill champion. He only breaks even on win rate after 125+ games played as him where as plenty of other mids have high win rates on low experience
User was temp banned for this post.
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So if from now on I only play Heimerdinger top, I will get challenger because he has above 50% winrate? You are literally beyond saving.
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On October 19 2015 06:16 loSleb wrote:
So if from now on I only play Heimerdinger top, I will get challenger because he has above 50% winrate? You are literally beyond saving.
Ayyyyy lmaooo
But for real, winrate for the masses doesn't say a whole lot about winrate for individuals. Just because there are a lot of shitters playing him doesn't mean he's a bad champion.
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On October 19 2015 06:16 loSleb wrote:
So if from now on I only play Heimerdinger top, I will get challenger because he has above 50% winrate? You are literally beyond saving.
1600 games evaluated this patch has a 1.2% standard error so Heimer top's real win rate is around 53 to 59 with about 95% probability. If you wanted to win games in soloqueue it would not be a bad idea.
11000 games for Viktor has about a .4% standard error, so call it 1% either way for a 95% confidence and you're looking at 45% to 47% win rate. Woooo, amazing!
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Alright, so over 11000 games of Viktor, counting every player, he has a winrate of around 46%. This helps us in what way, exactly, to determine whether or not we should play him in soloq?
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On October 19 2015 06:20 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 06:16 loSleb wrote:
So if from now on I only play Heimerdinger top, I will get challenger because he has above 50% winrate? You are literally beyond saving. 1600 games evaluated this patch has a 1.2% standard error so Heimer top's real win rate is around 53 to 59 with about 95% probability. If you wanted to win games in soloqueue it would not be a bad idea. 11000 games for Viktor has about a .4% standard error, so call it 1% either way for a 95% confidence and you're looking at 45% to 47% win rate. Woooo, amazing!
Hold on. You are not going to argue about mixed role MMR here?
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On October 19 2015 06:55 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 06:20 Goumindong wrote:On October 19 2015 06:16 loSleb wrote:
So if from now on I only play Heimerdinger top, I will get challenger because he has above 50% winrate? You are literally beyond saving. 1600 games evaluated this patch has a 1.2% standard error so Heimer top's real win rate is around 53 to 59 with about 95% probability. If you wanted to win games in soloqueue it would not be a bad idea. 11000 games for Viktor has about a .4% standard error, so call it 1% either way for a 95% confidence and you're looking at 45% to 47% win rate. Woooo, amazing! Hold on. You are not going to argue about mixed role MMR here?
Not sure what you're saying. Nafta or someone said Viktor was a good pick if you're just going to be mid every once and a while. I said it was not because he loses games and he only starts to win games if you main him. The number of games i used to calculate the standard errors was the number of games champion.gg has recorded for their analysis in that particular role. About 11,000 games played as viktor mid and about 1600 games played as Heimer top. I.E. we're more sure that Viktor mid is weaker than average and still decently sure that Heimer top is above average.
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Goumindong it just says there are a lot of bad players on him, nothing else.
Still cant believe people like Goumindong and LimpingGoat are allowed to post here. They're worse than wei2coolman.
Like who wants to read their retarded shit on a daily basis? Even lurkers are coming out of the woodwork to say that these people need to be gone, and yet absolutely nothing happens.
Well, I guess that makes sense, since watching all 5 major leagues takes up a lot of your time.
Like, literally the only good things about this site are the articles (sometimes) and the guys like Wonderful and 739. The mods don't give a shit about the rest of the site. Chexx told me he was gonna do something with the EUW inhouses but that was 6 months ago and since then I've heard nothing, despite me asking a couple times. Apparently they didn't want any help either to improve their own fucking site.
We had a bunch of pretty good players here 2 years ago, but I guess this is what happens when you don't give a shit. "Stricter moderation", suuuuuuure.
It's just sad that Neo has said time and time again that they will be doing more quality control, and yet this happens.
+ Show Spoiler +
User was warned for this post (crappy and annoying LL meme)
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IMO deciding which champion to play in Solo Q should come down mostly to what you enjoy playing. I know it's clichéd but you really will have to put a large amount of time on any champion you want to get good at and this will be much easier if you're enjoying yourself. If the champion seems interesting, start playing it and if you enjoy playing it stick with it. No champion is so bad you can't carry with it.
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Also "What the best champ to carry with in Solo Q?" should be put in the "What is a tank?" tier of questions.
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On October 19 2015 07:06 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 06:55 Sufficiency wrote:On October 19 2015 06:20 Goumindong wrote:On October 19 2015 06:16 loSleb wrote:
So if from now on I only play Heimerdinger top, I will get challenger because he has above 50% winrate? You are literally beyond saving. 1600 games evaluated this patch has a 1.2% standard error so Heimer top's real win rate is around 53 to 59 with about 95% probability. If you wanted to win games in soloqueue it would not be a bad idea. 11000 games for Viktor has about a .4% standard error, so call it 1% either way for a 95% confidence and you're looking at 45% to 47% win rate. Woooo, amazing! Hold on. You are not going to argue about mixed role MMR here? Not sure what you're saying. Nafta or someone said Viktor was a good pick if you're just going to be mid every once and a while. I said it was not because he loses games and he only starts to win games if you main him. The number of games i used to calculate the standard errors was the number of games champion.gg has recorded for their analysis in that particular role. About 11,000 games played as viktor mid and about 1600 games played as Heimer top. I.E. we're more sure that Viktor mid is weaker than average and still decently sure that Heimer top is above average.
So you're saying that, as of champion select finishing, no team composition has an advantage over another? That, as of champion select, no team of players in ranked has an advantage over any other?
An easy example. There are 5 players on team A all playing their mains and team B has 5 AD mains. Does team A or B have a better chance to win given the players mixed role mmr is the same? I would suggest that team a has a better win chance and that they will acquire gold because of that. What if team a has good counter picks and so easily wins lane. Does that effect the gold acquisition? Of course all that does.
That is why it's hard to say that the win % with Viktor is the impact. That doesn't mean we can't generalize from very specific summary stats but it does mean that the value we are looking at is a mix of the indication and the impact with no clear way to disentangle the two.
If we don't care about disentangling them then you should be good to go. But you should still disentangle the effect of the dragons.
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On October 19 2015 07:06 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 06:55 Sufficiency wrote:On October 19 2015 06:20 Goumindong wrote:On October 19 2015 06:16 loSleb wrote:
So if from now on I only play Heimerdinger top, I will get challenger because he has above 50% winrate? You are literally beyond saving. 1600 games evaluated this patch has a 1.2% standard error so Heimer top's real win rate is around 53 to 59 with about 95% probability. If you wanted to win games in soloqueue it would not be a bad idea. 11000 games for Viktor has about a .4% standard error, so call it 1% either way for a 95% confidence and you're looking at 45% to 47% win rate. Woooo, amazing! Hold on. You are not going to argue about mixed role MMR here? Not sure what you're saying. Nafta or someone said Viktor was a good pick if you're just going to be mid every once and a while. I said it was not because he loses games and he only starts to win games if you main him. The number of games i used to calculate the standard errors was the number of games champion.gg has recorded for their analysis in that particular role. About 11,000 games played as viktor mid and about 1600 games played as Heimer top. I.E. we're more sure that Viktor mid is weaker than average and still decently sure that Heimer top is above average.
Viktor has a lower then expected winrate because
-people build him wrong
-people try and force things with him early, you just need to farm and scale
-his laser can be finicky
-he was just the most pick/banned laner in lcs so a lot of people randomly pick him when they have to off-role. (and offrolers will naturally have way below 50% winrate overall.)
-a thousand other reasons that the winrate alone isn't a good answer to any question except "what is viktors winrate"
He is a safe, strong mid laner, who scales really hard, and has plenty of tools to outplay and turn around ganks. Once you get the hang of his e, his play pattern is super simple, and through his mobility there's lots of room to improve over your games.
Winrate really has nothing to do with this, maybe you should try actually playing the game rather then just giving statistics a bad name
On October 19 2015 07:09 Nos- wrote:
SOMEONE END THIS
It's hard to have any reasonable discussion at all when people start discrediting anything you say with baseless statistics, and act like they have some crazy innate overriding understanding of the game because they looked at champion.gg
On October 19 2015 07:30 Amarok wrote:
Also "What the best champ to carry with in Solo Q?" should be put in the "What is a tank?" tier of questions.
"What's best to carry with" is a bit of a misnomer, because you can carry with anything if you're good, or fail to carry with anything if you're bad. There are definitely some champions that are stronger then others in each meta if you have the right builds/understanding of them, and getting good players opinions on those can be really helpful. Even among us, we often find some strong build/champion and have some crazy winrate right off the bat for the next patch or two abusing that. Sadly it's kind of hard when people feel the need to try and overrule these discussions with random statistics.
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Dear Goumindong,
Winrate is not the only metric that matters for indicating champion strength.
It is a metric and it is an important one. But it is not the only important one.
This is the standpoint of basically everyone on this forum, as well as Riots balance team. We have many sensible, logical reasons to think this way.
A champion can be really strong in specific team comps, but very weak in most others, making it too strong in instances where it is strong but weak when looked at overall.
A champion can be too strong in a specific matchup, but weak overall, making it very strong if picked at the correct time despite a low overall winrate.
A champion can be really strong but difficult to play, or just different to play in comparison to other champions. This can make a very strong champion have a low winrate.
A champion can be really strong with a specific item or rune setup that is not popular, which can skew winrate.
Basically, because there are real people playing the game, they play the game differently from each other and are not perfect robots in a vacuum, looking at the winrate for everybody is not a perfect indication of whether or not the champion is strong on an individual. It is one of several important factors, but when you look at it as the only one you make errors.
This only winrate metric argument is one that you have made several times on this forum. It is a bad argument and it makes everybody think you don't really play the game, and just tunnelvision on numbers without actually understanding things. There are times when statistics improve the quality of a discussion, but this is not one of them.
I would like you to please stop making this argument.
Love,
Ketara
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On October 19 2015 07:17 Fildun wrote:
Still cant believe people like Goumindong and LimpingGoat are allowed to post here. They're worse than wei2coolman.
Like who wants to read their retarded shit on a daily basis? Even lurkers are coming out of the woodwork to say that these people need to be gone, and yet absolutely nothing happens.
I actually think Goumindong is one of the least stressful to read regular posters on LL, just because
1.) His reading comprehension isn't terrible*, and
2.) He doesn't intentionally make ridiculous assumptions about what others are trying to say just because they didn't specify otherwise*.
Whether he adds anything productive (for example, this post does not) is more questionable I suppose, though I would say that he generally does in the form of substantiation.
*refer to most people responding to Goumindong on this topic for examples
On October 19 2015 06:26 Fildun wrote:
Alright, so over 11000 games of Viktor, counting every player, he has a winrate of around 46%. This helps us in what way, exactly, to determine whether or not we should play him in soloq?
On October 19 2015 07:35 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 07:06 Goumindong wrote:
Not sure what you're saying. Nafta or someone said Viktor was a good pick if you're just going to be mid every once and a while. I said it was not because he loses games and he only starts to win games if you main him. The number of games i used to calculate the standard errors was the number of games champion.gg has recorded for their analysis in that particular role. About 11,000 games played as viktor mid and about 1600 games played as Heimer top. I.E. we're more sure that Viktor mid is weaker than average and still decently sure that Heimer top is above average. Viktor has a lower then expected winrate because -people build him wrong -people try and force things with him early, you just need to farm and scale -his laser can be finicky -he was just the most pick/banned laner in lcs so a lot of people randomly pick him when they have to off-role. (and offrolers will naturally have way below 50% winrate overall.) -a thousand other reasons that the winrate alone isn't a good answer to any question except "what is viktors winrate" He is a safe, strong mid laner, who scales really hard, and has plenty of tools to outplay and turn around ganks. Once you get the hang of his e, his play pattern is super simple, and through his mobility there's lots of room to improve over your games.
A large part of Gou's argument substantiation here is that Viktor takes on average 125 games to crack an even winrate with, a number that is substantially above average. Building on this, there are many champions who take a much lower number of games (on average) to become proficient enough with to crack and even winrate with, and that those champions would probably be better for solo queue off-role play.
Of course the effects of individual playstyle and proficiency dominate the effects of this suggestion, but in the context of someone asking "what's a good mid to occasionally play in solo queue?", which is what Goumindong is responding to, this is a very reasonable response.
All of this said, I agree with Ketara on basically all points.
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On October 19 2015 07:17 Fildun wrote:
User was warned for this post (crappy and annoying LL meme)
(in mods' opinion and against what many other think)
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On October 19 2015 07:59 TheHumanSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 07:17 Fildun wrote:
Still cant believe people like Goumindong and LimpingGoat are allowed to post here. They're worse than wei2coolman.
Like who wants to read their retarded shit on a daily basis? Even lurkers are coming out of the woodwork to say that these people need to be gone, and yet absolutely nothing happens.
I actually think Goumindong is one of the least stressful to read regular posters on LL, just because 1.) His reading comprehension isn't terrible*, and 2.) He doesn't intentionally make ridiculous assumptions about what others are trying to say just because they didn't specify otherwise*. Whether he adds anything productive (for example, this post does not) is more questionable I suppose, though I would say that he generally does in the form of substantiation. *refer to most people responding to Goumindong on this topic for examples Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 06:26 Fildun wrote:
Alright, so over 11000 games of Viktor, counting every player, he has a winrate of around 46%. This helps us in what way, exactly, to determine whether or not we should play him in soloq? Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 07:35 killerdog wrote:On October 19 2015 07:06 Goumindong wrote:
Not sure what you're saying. Nafta or someone said Viktor was a good pick if you're just going to be mid every once and a while. I said it was not because he loses games and he only starts to win games if you main him. The number of games i used to calculate the standard errors was the number of games champion.gg has recorded for their analysis in that particular role. About 11,000 games played as viktor mid and about 1600 games played as Heimer top. I.E. we're more sure that Viktor mid is weaker than average and still decently sure that Heimer top is above average. Viktor has a lower then expected winrate because -people build him wrong -people try and force things with him early, you just need to farm and scale -his laser can be finicky -he was just the most pick/banned laner in lcs so a lot of people randomly pick him when they have to off-role. (and offrolers will naturally have way below 50% winrate overall.) -a thousand other reasons that the winrate alone isn't a good answer to any question except "what is viktors winrate" He is a safe, strong mid laner, who scales really hard, and has plenty of tools to outplay and turn around ganks. Once you get the hang of his e, his play pattern is super simple, and through his mobility there's lots of room to improve over your games. A large part of Gou's argument substantiation here is that Viktor takes on average 125 games to crack an even winrate with, a number that is substantially above average. Building on this, there are many champions who take a much lower number of games (on average) to become proficient enough with to crack and even winrate with, and that those champions would probably be better for solo queue off-role play. Of course the effects of individual playstyle and proficiency dominate the effects of this suggestion, but in the context of someone asking "what's a good mid to occasionally play in solo queue?", which is what Goumindong is responding to, this is a very reasonable response. All of this said, I agree with Ketara on basically all points.
This viktor post alone is just mildly annoying, he's ignoring lots of factors and acting like the winrate is the end all of the situaiton. It's the fact that every time any discussion vaguely relating to which champions are good, he immediately comes out with statistics and derails the entire discussion, and if you try and ignore him he just keeps posting it until someone bites. And this has been happening for like, many months now.
It's completely wrecking any chance to have any discussion, at least if this was reddit people would have gotten bored of it by now and it would be downvoted but because of the forum format it's just filling every discussion with bait until someone bites and the discussion goes to shit. The great thing about tl is it use to be such a great place to get in depth advice from high elo players, and that gets completely derailed when random people start disagreeing with people with evidence like "winrates" which just derail everything and can't even lead to an actual debate outside of some philosophical argument about how to use stats.
It (meaning the general issue of people being able to just disagree with very qualified on the subject people, purely out of principle) has driven a bunch of the great, very good at the game, helpful posters away, which was what made the discussions here so valuable, and now these threads are just dumb arguments, when before they were at least 50% really valuable bits of information.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On October 19 2015 08:05 AlterKot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 07:17 Fildun wrote:
User was warned for this post (crappy and annoying LL meme) (in mods' opinion and against what many other think)
Take it to website feedback. That has nothing to do with the topic of GD.
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On October 19 2015 07:59 TheHumanSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2015 07:17 Fildun wrote:
Still cant believe people like Goumindong and LimpingGoat are allowed to post here. They're worse than wei2coolman.
Like who wants to read their retarded shit on a daily basis? Even lurkers are coming out of the woodwork to say that these people need to be gone, and yet absolutely nothing happens.
I actually think Goumindong is one of the least stressful to read regular posters on LL, just because 1.) His reading comprehension isn't terrible*, and 2.) He doesn't intentionally make ridiculous assumptions about what others are trying to say just because they didn't specify otherwise*. Whether he adds anything productive (for example, this post does not) is more questionable I suppose, though I would say that he generally does in the form of substantiation. *refer to most people responding to Goumindong on this topic for examples
His form is substantiation is almost universally in the form of bad theory / math though. Trying to argue with him is like arguing with a rock - he tries to sound really smart with jargon and math formula, but then you realize he has not even the basic understanding of what he is saying. He just furiously google things then pretend to be the expert.
That being said, I think the ban was a little heavy-handed. Nevertheless, it's probably for the best to take a break.
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Repeatedly making game theory statements that are blatantly wrong is supposed to be bannable, this is just the first time in my memory that somebody has actually been banned for it.
Let's move on.
Talk about Lux IMO. She's not the #1 winrate mid anymore WHAT HAPPEN???
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EPT
