EPT[Patch 5.19] League of Legends General Discussion - Page 8
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schmutttt
Australia3856 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 01 2015 22:38 Caiada wrote: Point out to me a tournament where more than one game was decided by a significant AA. Yep. On the other hand, tons of games were ruined by random power outage, VISA, bugs, etc.. Did I mention this game still does not have official replays or the ability to spectate via client? No soundbooth? Group of life/death? This game has many problems, some theoretical chance of crit ruining a game isn't one. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Fildun
Netherlands4124 Posts
On October 01 2015 22:38 Caiada wrote: Point out to me a tournament where more than one game was decided by a significant AA. Worlds 2014. | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
On October 01 2015 23:05 Sufficiency wrote: Yep. On the other hand, tons of games were ruined by random power outage, VISA, bugs, etc.. But following your (flawed) logic, these issues shouldn't be fixed because they don't happen EVERY game. Of course critting DOES happen every game but somehow doesn't effect the outcome? I'll echo previous posters; you are probably just purposefully obtuse due to boredom/whatever | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
IIRC, That series was decided by Alistar. Whoever on purple basically lost a ban. And looking at the band for FNC vs IG right now, Darius is going to penalize a ban for purple side this year. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 01 2015 23:42 Vorenius wrote: But following your (flawed) logic, these issues shouldn't be fixed because they don't happen EVERY game. Of course critting DOES happen every game but somehow doesn't effect the outcome? I'll echo previous posters; you are probably just purposefully obtuse due to boredom/whatever Yummy personal attack. Yay! No. I am saying those things happen more often than a series of lucky crits ruining a game. | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On October 01 2015 22:42 VayneAuthority wrote: The first runepage I ever bought in this game was a crit damage page to play gangplank and shaco. Good times until they gutted crit damage runes. always run that max crit chance page on gp in the old days then parley parley parley parley parley all while denying creeps to get a huge lead good times rip jewplank | ||
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
It'll at least settle which of you two actually understands how to use markov chains. Sounds like Sufficiency's argument boils down to a basic question asked often in sports philosophy (an admittedly small field): "Knowing that not all random factors can be excluded from determining the outcome of a contest, should we attempt to remove [some]/[the ones we can]/[as many as possible]?" I (and many others it seems) would say yes, but to be fair to Sufficiency's argument, Riot historically really hasn't been doing this given things like tournaments formats, bugs, poor visa planning, and the like. Also, while competitive integrity depends on the outcome of games as a whole, crit feels good/bad at the small scale events within games. Regardless of how infrequently crit affects the outcome of competitive games, it still often feels bad to many individual players, which I think is obvious given the narratives put forth in this thread. On October 01 2015 21:04 Osmoses wrote: Well, I think crit is a good thing because sudden big numbers is a rewarding feeling in any game, but I think LoL could possibly do without it considering there are so many other interesting variables in the game. That said, the feeling of a surprise crit, whether yours or the enemy's is pretty irreplaceable. It's a wonderful gradient of ohshit to fuckyes. It's exciting. I was thinking about this, and I think a good alternative would be adding a "visual crit" stat that works exactly like crit does now, except that it doesn't do any extra damage. It would proc the champs crit animation, possible make the projectile bigger, and you could even sell crit effect/particle skins that can only be obtained via mystery chests! This would definitely satiate the gambling addicts like me, without ruining other people's critless fantasies. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On October 02 2015 03:02 TheHumanSensation wrote: It'll at least settle which of you two actually understands how to use markov chains. No. It wouldn't do that at all. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On October 01 2015 19:02 Goumindong wrote: It isn't. The edit however is quite relevant since the structure holds for any generating function which is non deterministic. As for who wants to play that game? Me. You only say that because you suck at the actual game LOL. Maybe if you spent your time improving accordingly you wouldn't be spending your time spamming GD with useless stats and binary systems that never even existed in the game. Like seriously, it fucking amazes me how someone can still be stuck at the same learning-curve just like back when i played in season 3 LOL. And also amazing how someone can produce so much shit when it's obvious that everyone and his mother is laughing behind your back because you're so fucking imbecile and haven't realized it yet. GG gourmindong, the guy who claimed that Janna beats Sona and now claims that binary systems that doesn't exist within the game will make him better (somehow) LOL User was warned for this post | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On October 02 2015 03:02 TheHumanSensation wrote: It'll at least settle which of you two actually understands how to use markov chains. Sounds like Sufficiency's argument boils down to a basic question asked often in sports philosophy (an admittedly small field): "Knowing that not all random factors can be excluded from determining the outcome of a contest, should we attempt to remove [some]/[the ones we can]/[as many as possible]?" I (and many others it seems) would say yes, but to be fair to Sufficiency's argument, Riot historically really hasn't been doing this given things like tournaments formats, bugs, poor visa planning, and the like. Are you really saying that suffiency's argument, that crit is fine because riot is bad at getting visas, is in any way logical or valid... | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
Let's bring that back | ||
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crate
United States2474 Posts
The important thing here is that there is a very simple alternative that gives exactly the same average result, and in fact this system is already used in the game by Ashe. (I assume Ashe's numbers lead to the same damage on average, I admit I'm too lazy to check right now. It's very easy to change the numbers so that it is the same on average.) So, if you think rng-crit should remain, you need to argue that rng-crit is not inferior to Ashe-crit. In other words, what are the benefits to the game of having this sort of randomness? This is the question you should be answering. I certainly agree that it is very rare that crit rng actually determines a game, but that's pretty much completely irrelevant, unless you want to argue that the programming effort spent switching every champion over to the Ashe-style crits is better spent working on other things instead because this is not important. (No one in this topic has been using this argument, however, unless Sufficiency is sort of doing so but not saying it explicitly.) Or, as I said above, if you think the benefits of rng-crit outweigh the drawbacks of rng-crit. Sufficiency seems to just be saying "it's not important because it almost never matters", which isn't relevant at all here (unless you want to use the programming effort argument). Personally I would prefer Ashe-crit for all champions, but I would not myself argue that it is objectively superior. If you think that being able to adjust to a lucky crit and take advantage of it is a skill worth retaining, then rng-crit does offer that opportunity and Ashe-crit does not. On the other hand, Ashe-crit allows you to more reliably estimate how encounters featuring small numbers of autoattacks will go, and if you think that is a benefit then Ashe-crit has at least one clear advantage. There's not really a lot of reason to argue further along these lines, since I think most players have already come up with their own thoughts on the matter here and arguments in this topic are unlikely to change anyone's mind. For what it is worth, Riot has already removed at least most of the rng mechanics that work(ed) similarly to crit. Dodge is long gone, as are things like old Phage. I think the point of the Ashe-crit rework was at least as a first step in doing the same to crit. Riot has certainly at least suggested that they think rng-crit is something that should eventually go away. --- In the case of things like power outages, there is not an alternative system that is easy to implement that fixes the problems. Are those larger problems overall? Probably, but they're not something Riot can fix. Now, if you want to argue that Riot should put their programmers to work on fixing problems within League that are a bigger deal than rng crits, that is reasonable. | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
On October 01 2015 23:51 Sufficiency wrote: Yummy personal attack. Yay! No. I am saying those things happen more often than a series of lucky crits ruining a game. Classic misdirection. Saying crit shouldn't be changed because there are other issues, isn't a good defense for crit. It's just a stab at Riot. The only argument you have presented for keeping crit as is, is that power outages and bugs are, in your opinion, worse. Not only is the priority people would give these different problems (they are all problems) highly subjective, it's still not in any way a reason to keep crit. When you can't even give a single reason as to why the current crit system should be kept, yet still argue about over several pages... Well, I'm sorry but your sincerity obviously seems questionable. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On October 02 2015 04:36 Vorenius wrote: Classic misdirection. Saying crit shouldn't be changed because there are other issues, isn't a good defense for crit. It's just a stab at Riot. Stabbing RIOT is 99,9% of all theory-crafting. Always have, always will be. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On October 01 2015 23:05 schmutttt wrote: Anyone here use LoL Replay? It is only recording the last game I play then overwriting it with a new one when I play again. I use www.replay.gg Auto records every game, you just need to make your email filter them to a certain folder so you don't get completely swamped. Lets you have all your games recorded without having to have tons of memory filled up, also easy to link to people. Not sure how it handles older client versions/very old replays, but i've had no issues. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On October 02 2015 04:36 Vorenius wrote: Classic misdirection. Saying crit shouldn't be changed because there are other issues, isn't a good defense for crit. It's just a stab at Riot. The only argument you have presented for keeping crit as is, is that power outages and bugs are, in your opinion, worse. Not only is the priority people would give these different problems (they are all problems) highly subjective, it's still not in any way a reason to keep crit. When you can't even give a single reason as to why the current crit system should be kept, yet still argue about over several pages... Well, I'm sorry but your sincerity obviously seems questionable. It is actually a really good argument. If there are X items that needs to be fixed, then prioritize and fix the more important stuff. The impact of the issue is definitely a factor to consider. This isn't a misdirection; it's how the real world works. As far as moving crits into the Ashe system, it is not that simple. Conventional knowledge says consistent streams of damage (no crits) is generally stronger since the damage is more stable and there is less overkill. It will also force fixes for Yasuo, Ashe, and Randuin's (maybe shiv too). | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 02 2015 05:01 Sufficiency wrote: It is actually a really good argument. If there are X items that needs to be fixed, then prioritize and fix the more important stuff. The impact of the issue is definitely a factor to consider. This isn't a misdirection; it's how the real world works. Well it's not necessarily just importance, but importance vs. how much effort it takes to fix. The implicit argument here is that since Ashe basically uses a mechanic almost equivalent to pseudo-crit % AA damage, the effort required to change crit in such a fashion should be minimal compared to most other relevant issues. Of course, we can't know whether this is actually true because spaghetti code and all that. Perhaps it is non-trivial to mess with crit. | ||
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