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If we're assuming the system doesn't directly enforce the roles beyond players potentially reporting you for picking outside your selection, what's to stop you from picking two and then simply being more flexible than your selection implied?
On paper, nothing, and that'd be fine by me. However, I am doubtful of the average team's (as a group of me + 4 players) willingness to accomodate this on a regular basis.
I'd need to see how the system will be handled, but a few things to consider:
- people believed that typing first would give priority, Riot enforced pick order, so you find people (not the majority in my experience, but still) who'll be very vocal if you "contest" the pick order by politely asking if they mind letting you.
If the chosen roles (the one by the system or the two by each player) are displayed, people will use it: "the system said jungle even if you said fill, so you play that", "it says fill and the only role left is top, so no I won't switch with you I want mid", etc.
- depending on the frequency at which it occurs (and Riot's policy regarding these reports and how to enforce them), it may not be worth it to incur the reports to try and negociate your way through another role.
- if the roles are assigned by the system and displayed, then it makes it harder to switch on the spot like I tend to do (as I said, I'm aware that I'm an outlier and thus not weighting much in the system's design).
Again, this is all congruent to how the system and UI turn out, so I'll wait to see it before I speak too firmly, although from what we've read and Riot's track record I probably won't like it. 
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I dont understand how this will work for challenger/masters tier.
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On September 24 2015 02:14 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 02:03 Seuss wrote:On September 24 2015 01:43 TheYango wrote:
Because being able to pick 4 roles would give you faster queue times than picking 2? That doesn't seem to be Alaric's focus, but regardless that depends on Riot's algorithms and available processing power. I noted this earlier, but the number of possible setups/combinations increases significantly as you increase the number of roles a player selects. "Fill" is probably only an option because there's an implicit assumption that you can be used as a pure wildcard and no weighting/preferences need to be considered. I doubt that matchmaking algorithms take up a lot of server power, compared to the data being transferred during a game it should be minuscule. Also, this isn't probability, the system sees you signed up for role A and B, a game with your MMR has a spot available for role A, you get put into role A (there's probably an order for filling specific roles). I would find it strange if the system considered a player for multiple games, because then players would always be being taken out of teams when they get into lobby. In the view of the system, there would be difference between the fill role and a normal player, you get put into the first available spot for you. Makes stuff faster too that way.
Data transfer is a fundamentally different beast from matchmaking. The primary aspects of that problem are verifying the data and sending it on its way, neither of which is processor intensive. The only reason there's a large processing load is because there's a lot of data, but there's specialized hardware for this very purpose.
Matchmaking is complicated and processor intensive because it involves actually operating on the data. Even if you get only a subset of the list of players to work on, working through the list in a way that prevents extreme cases (e.g. getting orphaned and sitting in the queue forever) is a non-trivial task. We take for granted how difficult that sort of thing is because Google and others make it seem so easy, but it isn't.
Now, it would be fair to argue that a "fill"-like option where you simply specify one or two roles you don't want to play wouldn't be hard to work into that considering there's already a "fill" option, but one which gives roles weights and considerations in the same manner as the primary/secondary system would represent a non-trivial increase in processing.
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Wouldn't a fill option with roles you don't want to play be the same as having people select 3+ roles?
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Not exactly.
"Fill" implies that you don't care about what role you play, so the algorithm can skip trying to weigh your preferences and just slot you wherever it wants. By comparison, selecting Primary + Secondary + Tertiary + Quaternary roles implies preference which is a non-trivial issue to evaluate.
The key point being that so long as players choosing 3 or 4 roles are shortcutted the same way as "Fill" players (probably) are there shouldn't be an issue making it work, but those players would have to accept that of the roles they selected no preferences will be weighed at all.
Which, honestly, most players wouldn't. This XKCD comic is pretty relevant here, most players would find the 3+ cutoff completely arbitrary and have no understanding of why they can have preferences for two roles but not for more than that.
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Hey guys, whats your opinion on Sterak's Gage on champions like Irelia, Aatrox or Trundle? I've been testing it as a second or third item (mostly after stacking some HP with Triforce or Randuin's/DMP). So far it seemed really good as a third item especially for trundle and aatrox, as the shield makes you night unkillable with all the sustain these champions bring. On Irelia I found it more effective as a second item if you are snowballing to really bring the one shot hurt from amplified Triforce procs. Otherwise I'd delay it to a 4th or 5th item on her.
Nayone else playing around with it?
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Aatrox is trashtier if you ask me no matter what you build on him, and Trundle doesn't really synergize with either steraks or triforce. But on Irelia, yes, build steraks. So stronk.
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For a similar price you could also go Deadman's plate, offers a ton of armor. So if you're looking for some upfront burst, with tankiness, Deadman's plate is also a suitable replacement, or if you want to go balls to the walls, triforce+deadman's+sterak's.
edit: wait, with GD split, doesn't this discussion go in the other thread? any quick clarification real quick?
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Whenever I play Sion I always go titanic->deadmans->steraks/gauntlet. I mean, Sion got really high base damage, but following up a q or an ulti with a deadmans auto+titanic active, hooo boy whatever you just hit is fukken dead, and you're still tanky as shit. I love it.
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On September 24 2015 16:56 Osmoses wrote:
Aatrox is trashtier if you ask me no matter what you build on him, and Trundle doesn't really synergize with either steraks or triforce. But on Irelia, yes, build steraks. So stronk.
Aatrox may not be the champ in the game, but he is far from trash tier. You can simple not blind pick him, but he can do well against comps with multiple tanks or as a lane counter and splitpusher if you know the enemy top in advance.
Ofc he's going to feel like trash if you pick him into janna/vayne or darius.
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He does fine in lane, but in teamfights he shares the same problem as every other melee bruiser; getting more than one or two hits off on a squishy before getting bursted or peeled. As for splitpushing, what does Aatrox do that other champs don't do better?
Yeah and to echo wei, is this the right thread for this discussion? :p
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On September 24 2015 17:33 Osmoses wrote:
Whenever I play Sion I always go titanic->deadmans->steraks/gauntlet. I mean, Sion got really high base damage, but following up a q or an ulti with a deadmans auto+titanic active, hooo boy whatever you just hit is fukken dead, and you're still tanky as shit. I love it.
I like building FH first in many occasions though, that way your ult is available way more often, and Sion likes the mana to spam his abilities. I guess if you manage to build a lead, Titanic is really good for bullying in lane, goes really nice with Sion's health stacking.
Yeah, Sion's ult does so much damage and is a ridiculous stun time combined with Q, that combo can win you fights singlehandedly, same tier as Orianna ult, I'd argue better than a Malphite ult.
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On September 24 2015 04:03 cLutZ wrote:
I dont understand how this will work for challenger/masters tier.
cant wait to watch 2h queues on stream
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On September 24 2015 20:08 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 04:03 cLutZ wrote:
I dont understand how this will work for challenger/masters tier. cant wait to watch 2h queues on stream
Yes I think this is going to be a problem.
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The current system functions the same as if everyone was queuing Fill, right? If queue times were an issue at the highest levels could this be solved with queuing fill and it would be status quo? Defeats the purpose of the system for that level but it's still in place for everyone else.
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i hate sion so im glad nobody plays him, they reworked him into such an annoying champ.
there's better stuff to buy on trundle then triforce, he doesnt really need the speed boost and gives a lot of useless stats he doesnt want. titanic hydra better as a 2nd damage item after botrk and if no triforce no point in steraks
one of the best triforce/steraks users is skarner. his base damage is sooo high.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 24 2015 22:09 mordek wrote:
The current system functions the same as if everyone was queuing Fill, right? If queue times were an issue at the highest levels could this be solved with queuing fill and it would be status quo? Defeats the purpose of the system for that level but it's still in place for everyone else.
Well then what happens is that you get a prisoner's dilemma situation where if one person queues for a role and not fill, they'll always get it with no adverse effect, but if everyone does it, queue times get fucked again.
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On September 24 2015 22:50 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2015 22:09 mordek wrote:
The current system functions the same as if everyone was queuing Fill, right? If queue times were an issue at the highest levels could this be solved with queuing fill and it would be status quo? Defeats the purpose of the system for that level but it's still in place for everyone else. Well then what happens is that you get a prisoner's dilemma situation where if one person queues for a role and not fill, they'll always get it with no adverse effect, but if everyone does it, queue times get fucked again.
So it's reasonable to assume since the population is lower at that elo it just won't work? Is role diversity a known problem there and people just get stuck filling the least played role all the time? How do we know this?
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I figure high level people will learn to adapt and it will become standard for them to just pick fill, unless they really want to play a certain role. Smurfing is also an option I guess.
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EPT
