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On February 04 2015 11:14 FeltFace wrote:
I would turn gay for more elo
Chicks Dig Elo.
On February 04 2015 10:34 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2015 10:25 wei2coolman wrote:
I'm not sure if anyone here sees the irony that everyone is okay with excluding males from a competition, but then get all uppity on the idea that the tournament adds more restrictions in regards to participant pool. their not really the same thing. if an organization wants to have a female only tournament thats fine just like if they want to have a south america tournament or a north america tournament. but they then don't get to discriminate against an already heavily discriminated against minority (at least not without getting backlash.)
I just find it funny how it's okay to say "no" to half the participant pool, then to say "no" to an even smaller chunk of the remaining participant pool is what makes the news.
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In a way it is, but it just becomes so much more sensitive when it's about a vulnerable minority. On the other hand, I can understand why there would be a rule like that. If one gender has an advantage in lol (not saying that's the case, just hypothetical), then that advantage doesn't disappear just because a person identifies with another gender. I kind of think the rule should be even stricter - it's not about discrimination, it's about fairness and biological advantages that are there regardless of what a person identifies with.
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Come on. Sex doesn't make a difference in computer games. Gender does. If you want to create a harassment-free enviroment for women to compete in (which is the only noble reason that I can think of to justify a tournament like this in the first place) you basically need to include trans- people because they're even more in need of such an environment.
Every other reason is sexist. Being it you want to cash in on a male audience watching women play computer games or you think that there is a biological advantage for men in computer games. The reason women and men are seperated in sports is because of physical differences in muscle mass and body fat.
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Actually, studies have been conducted indicating that males on average have a faster reaction speed than women - it is not in any way sexist to acknowledge this. Could this lead to advantages in league of legends? If yes, that is reason enough to separate tournaments into male and female. Other reasons could be to promote and support female gaming, which is not sexist either. Women are still, after all, severely underrepresented in gaming.
On the other hand, I don't see how hosting a female only tournament creates a harassment-free environment for women. As far as I'm concerned, internet exposure pretty much always leads to more harassment, not less. This should apply even more to transgender people, I'm sure exposing yourself as transgender to thousands of viewers brings with it a lot of harassment and hate. People are assholes, especially when they can be anonymous.
Edit: Also, a link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10024851
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On February 04 2015 21:51 Solaris.playgu wrote:Actually, studies have been conducted indicating that males on average have a faster reaction speed than women - it is not in any way sexist to acknowledge this. Could this lead to advantages in league of legends? If yes, that is reason enough to separate tournaments into male and female. Other reasons could be to promote and support female gaming, which is not sexist either. Women are still, after all, severely underrepresented in gaming. On the other hand, I don't see how hosting a female only tournament creates a harassment-free environment for women. As far as I'm concerned, internet exposure pretty much always leads to more harassment, not less. This should apply even more to transgender people, I'm sure exposing yourself as transgender to thousands of viewers brings with it a lot of harassment and hate. People are assholes, especially when they can be anonymous. Edit: Also, a link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10024851
24 people, such sample size. However, I have heard of other studies that report the same thing.
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On February 05 2015 00:01 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2015 21:51 Solaris.playgu wrote:Actually, studies have been conducted indicating that males on average have a faster reaction speed than women - it is not in any way sexist to acknowledge this. Could this lead to advantages in league of legends? If yes, that is reason enough to separate tournaments into male and female. Other reasons could be to promote and support female gaming, which is not sexist either. Women are still, after all, severely underrepresented in gaming. On the other hand, I don't see how hosting a female only tournament creates a harassment-free environment for women. As far as I'm concerned, internet exposure pretty much always leads to more harassment, not less. This should apply even more to transgender people, I'm sure exposing yourself as transgender to thousands of viewers brings with it a lot of harassment and hate. People are assholes, especially when they can be anonymous. Edit: Also, a link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10024851 24 people, such sample size. However, I have heard of other studies that report the same thing.
Yes, small sample size indeed, and hardly conclusive. I have heard of other studies as well, that link was merely the first one I found when doing a quick search.
My point, though, is not to try and prove that men are by default superior in league of legends or anything akin to that. My point is that there is a distinct possibility that men and women have different predispositions toward the game, and that that possibility is enough to warrant having a female-only tournament. The question then is if it is fair to allow biological males to participate, since them identifying as female does not remove their potential advantages. In my mind it should be left to the organizers, and the ruling should be made according to what the goals or purpose of the tournament are.
How to handle transgender participants in traditional sports is not a clear-cut subject either, I found several scientific essays and papers on the subject just doing a quick search. From what I can gather, different organizations judge it differently, and which model to apply in e-sports is definately debatable.
That being said, I see no reason whatsoever to exclude gay women, and if that was in the original ruling then that is undoubtedly discriminating.
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I think that this is poor reporting, and sensationalizing over misinformation and bandwagoning on the Garena hate train.
The problem is with the premise of a females only tournament. If anything this allows for more, not less participation given the difficult circumstances of having a female only tournament. The question is how do you address the LGBT issue or even include them in tournaments? While lesbian women are still women, moving into the transgender zone becomes difficult as you can't simply define it as post-operation or whatsoever arbitrary line that you will HAVE to draw as an organizer.
Similarly you have to account for abuse of the system of having men pretend to be women (for the elo/prize money/whatever sick idea) in a practical manner, Garena isnt some Olympic body that will do testosterone level tests or check genitalia/wtv to determine if someone is decidedly male/female. It was a difficult decision and under these premises the idea behind it was not homophobic exclusion but rather inclusion of the LGBT community as they have been recognized in an ALL FEMALE TOURNAMENT. Subsequently the decision made shows this as well.
I do believe I am giving them a strong benefit of the doubt here but it's a much better alternative to simply pointless hate towards a country where I know nothing about its culture/religion/society.
For those still insistent on being a typical SJW and bashing coz gay rights seems to be the big thing now, I'll spell it out here since this is such a sensitive issue, the hypocrisy lies in being okay with one type of gender segregation (Female only tournament) but condemning a ruling that draws further lines about it (1 LGBT per team).
The dubiousness of the issue continues with possible mistranslation of the cultural and language context, as to what is the definition of LGBTQ (again, another can of worms). Once again let's not forget this is a community level event rather than a professional one. Context here is extremely important.
I think the south park episode about trans/cis and SJWs really parodies this entire episode really well. Think about it from the perspective of the people who are actually involved in the tournament, the organizers and how they might have to deal with 'pretenders', the female players, the practicality of such rulings and most importantly the LGBT community itself instead of judging from our perceived "moral high ground/high horse"
TL;DR the ruling made recognizes LGBT people, it does not discriminate against them.
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On February 05 2015 01:41 jupiterstorm wrote:
-snip-
It isn't hard to require documentation that somebody underwent HRT. Good luck getting a straight man that wants to abuse the system for "easy money" being willing to go through all that.
Even if we were to ignore the trans restrictions, it still restricts lesbians. Why? Homophobic assumption if you put two lesbians in a team house that they're bound to screw each others brains out? Guess a teams staff can't have a single male on it, or else him and somebody else are bounds to get involved. See how dumb that sounds? Who's to say teams already don't have multiple gay or bi players? What then? Should they be forced off their team if they come out/get caught or hide who they are?
Yeah, the trans issue sucks because a line would have to be drawn somewhere and somebody is bound to be upset over it whether it affects them or not, but restricting player spots for lesbian/bisexuals is beyond stupid.
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On February 05 2015 02:06 Gahlo wrote:It isn't hard to require documentation that somebody underwent HRT. Good luck getting a straight man that wants to abuse the system for "easy money" being willing to go through all that. Even if we were to ignore the trans restrictions, it still restricts lesbians. Why? Homophobic assumption if you put two lesbians in a team house that they're bound to screw each others brains out? Guess a teams staff can't have a single male on it, or else him and somebody else are bounds to get involved. See how dumb that sounds? Who's to say teams already don't have multiple gay or bi players? What then? Should they be forced off their team if they come out/get caught or hide who they are? Yeah, the trans issue sucks because a line would have to be drawn somewhere and somebody is bound to be upset over it whether it affects them or not, but restricting player spots for lesbian/bisexuals is beyond stupid.
Pardon me if I am ignorant but I think we are assuming a lot of things with the terms of the individual letters being thrown around here, but I would think that we might be over focusing too much on the lesbians (as we know) it being restricted. I'm asking you to think from the different perspectives here, if it wasnt even for such rulings, would the GBTQ letters (although limited in expressing the whole issue) even consider taking part in a tournament that explicitly states ALL FEMALES? I have to bring up the south park episode now to highlight the idea of rights vs abuse. Statistically LGBT individuals are a minority and lets note that while it was a restriction, it was not a ban and it thus recognizes and legitimizes the participation of these people. As much as you can call them homophobic on the grounds of ignorance, you too have committed the same premise of fault of ignorance here too.
I'll rephrase that once again for clarity, the LGBTQ is not an accurate description of gender deviants ranging from sexual orientation to gender identification. In gender/feminist theory literature gender, sex and sexuality/desire are the three main identifications of the heterosexual matrix, the fact that the most commonly understood acronym of LGBTQ does not cover the complete matrix of identifications and results in it being difficult to pinpoint and communicate a practical and sanctionable ruling over the gender issue. Put yourself in the organizers shoes, already by having the LGBT acronym pop up has caused that much problem, even citing consultation from the relevant communities, what do you think would happen if they started to define what acronym was supposed to mean? It isnt about people screwing people or whatsoever, it's about the nebulousness of the terms.
Once again the criticism of the perceived segregation here due to the banner of the acronym is hypocritical in the context of an all female tournament. Ask yourself what are the concerns and feelings of the LGBT people, IMO filling in forms that specify M/F creates feelings of differentiation as they have been excluded and are not expressed within those options, but to us it seems normalized.
Also, context of this is a community tournament, it isn't one with assumes team houses and super competitive teams with managers coaches and the full thing. It's more of a grab your friends and enjoy competition kind of thing, which would mean a certain level of perceived fairness so that people will be able to lose graciously.
Lastly, cheats and the like are very common in the SEA region due to difficulty in rule enforcements and while you might wonder why would people want to go to such lengths to cheat? It puzzles me too, but fact is people do it. A few months back the top teams in the phillipines who played in the GPL, I believe it was the Manila Eagles and Imperium Pro Team, were involved in a spoofing incident, why would "pro" teams do that? Beats me too.
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I don't understand the "gay" criterium, but transgender male->female women obviously have an advantage in women-only tournaments, so there's a point there. I remember in sc2 (albeit quite a long time ago) a certain now-famous player collected free money in a couple of women-tournaments.
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Yes I agree, in the transgender case there is no clear-cut solution, but in the lesbian case there can't possibly be any reasonable explanation for the ban other than prejudice. Biology could affect performance and thus be a fairness issue, but sexuality has nothing to do with it.
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On February 05 2015 02:35 mechengineer123 wrote:
I don't understand the "gay" criterium, but transgender male->female women obviously have an advantage in women-only tournaments, so there's a point there. I remember in sc2 (albeit quite a long time ago) a certain now-famous player collected free money in a couple of women-tournaments.
I see it as a catch all to recognize "gender deviants" (Can't think of a better more proper term here), see my post above on the complexity of the issue at hand and how even the long ass acronym (of LGBTQ) doesn't capture all facades of it.
Once again its a very low level (competition wise) event held at a community level, the concern isn't about actual advantage but perceived advantage and to prevent abuse. The way these things are held anyone can put on makeup, claim to be a woman and then play, even if they get called out on it they suffer barely any consequences, and probably just move on with life even if they get lifetime bans or something, probably going on to spoil another game's tournament.
Alternatively, stop holding "female" tournaments, the notion of it is really really ridiculous and by far the greater crime here. Just that we're too normalized into the male dominated environment to see it, perhaps even thinking that females need their own exclusive space in the game.
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On February 05 2015 02:33 jupiterstorm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2015 02:06 Gahlo wrote:On February 05 2015 01:41 jupiterstorm wrote:
-snip- It isn't hard to require documentation that somebody underwent HRT. Good luck getting a straight man that wants to abuse the system for "easy money" being willing to go through all that. Even if we were to ignore the trans restrictions, it still restricts lesbians. Why? Homophobic assumption if you put two lesbians in a team house that they're bound to screw each others brains out? Guess a teams staff can't have a single male on it, or else him and somebody else are bounds to get involved. See how dumb that sounds? Who's to say teams already don't have multiple gay or bi players? What then? Should they be forced off their team if they come out/get caught or hide who they are? Yeah, the trans issue sucks because a line would have to be drawn somewhere and somebody is bound to be upset over it whether it affects them or not, but restricting player spots for lesbian/bisexuals is beyond stupid. Wall of text no.2
I think the problem lies with the wording. As written, the rule was not only limiting the participation of transgenders but also the participation of biological, lesbian, women.
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On February 05 2015 02:44 Solaris.playgu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2015 02:33 jupiterstorm wrote:On February 05 2015 02:06 Gahlo wrote:On February 05 2015 01:41 jupiterstorm wrote:
-snip- It isn't hard to require documentation that somebody underwent HRT. Good luck getting a straight man that wants to abuse the system for "easy money" being willing to go through all that. Even if we were to ignore the trans restrictions, it still restricts lesbians. Why? Homophobic assumption if you put two lesbians in a team house that they're bound to screw each others brains out? Guess a teams staff can't have a single male on it, or else him and somebody else are bounds to get involved. See how dumb that sounds? Who's to say teams already don't have multiple gay or bi players? What then? Should they be forced off their team if they come out/get caught or hide who they are? Yeah, the trans issue sucks because a line would have to be drawn somewhere and somebody is bound to be upset over it whether it affects them or not, but restricting player spots for lesbian/bisexuals is beyond stupid. Wall of text no.2 I think the problem lies with the wording. As written, the rule was not only limiting the participation of transgenders but also the participation of biological, lesbian, women.
I'll admit it definitely could have been phrased better, but I just wanted to provide an alternative insight to the reasoning behind the decisions in the best of intentions, Garena has been getting lots of hate in the past months and I think that spilled over into peoples perceptions of this issue. After all they did rescind the restriction and open it up completely, I doubt that SJWs and keyboard warrioring are good enough to make organizations with homophobic intentions to change their statement in such a manner from track record in the region. (Ahem certain religious institutions ahem)
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On February 05 2015 02:54 jupiterstorm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2015 02:44 Solaris.playgu wrote:On February 05 2015 02:33 jupiterstorm wrote:On February 05 2015 02:06 Gahlo wrote:On February 05 2015 01:41 jupiterstorm wrote:
-snip- It isn't hard to require documentation that somebody underwent HRT. Good luck getting a straight man that wants to abuse the system for "easy money" being willing to go through all that. Even if we were to ignore the trans restrictions, it still restricts lesbians. Why? Homophobic assumption if you put two lesbians in a team house that they're bound to screw each others brains out? Guess a teams staff can't have a single male on it, or else him and somebody else are bounds to get involved. See how dumb that sounds? Who's to say teams already don't have multiple gay or bi players? What then? Should they be forced off their team if they come out/get caught or hide who they are? Yeah, the trans issue sucks because a line would have to be drawn somewhere and somebody is bound to be upset over it whether it affects them or not, but restricting player spots for lesbian/bisexuals is beyond stupid. Wall of text no.2 I think the problem lies with the wording. As written, the rule was not only limiting the participation of transgenders but also the participation of biological, lesbian, women. I'll admit it definitely could have been phrased better, but I just wanted to provide an alternative insight to the reasoning behind the decisions in the best of intentions, Garena has been getting lots of hate in the past months and I think that spilled over into peoples perceptions of this issue. After all they did rescind the restriction and open it up completely, I doubt that SJWs and keyboard warrioring are good enough to make organizations with homophobic intentions to change their statement in such a manner from track record in the region. (Ahem certain religious institutions ahem)
They overturned it because Riot thought it was fucking dumb.
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On February 05 2015 02:57 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2015 02:54 jupiterstorm wrote:On February 05 2015 02:44 Solaris.playgu wrote:On February 05 2015 02:33 jupiterstorm wrote:On February 05 2015 02:06 Gahlo wrote:On February 05 2015 01:41 jupiterstorm wrote:
-snip- It isn't hard to require documentation that somebody underwent HRT. Good luck getting a straight man that wants to abuse the system for "easy money" being willing to go through all that. Even if we were to ignore the trans restrictions, it still restricts lesbians. Why? Homophobic assumption if you put two lesbians in a team house that they're bound to screw each others brains out? Guess a teams staff can't have a single male on it, or else him and somebody else are bounds to get involved. See how dumb that sounds? Who's to say teams already don't have multiple gay or bi players? What then? Should they be forced off their team if they come out/get caught or hide who they are? Yeah, the trans issue sucks because a line would have to be drawn somewhere and somebody is bound to be upset over it whether it affects them or not, but restricting player spots for lesbian/bisexuals is beyond stupid. Wall of text no.2 I think the problem lies with the wording. As written, the rule was not only limiting the participation of transgenders but also the participation of biological, lesbian, women. I'll admit it definitely could have been phrased better, but I just wanted to provide an alternative insight to the reasoning behind the decisions in the best of intentions, Garena has been getting lots of hate in the past months and I think that spilled over into peoples perceptions of this issue. After all they did rescind the restriction and open it up completely, I doubt that SJWs and keyboard warrioring are good enough to make organizations with homophobic intentions to change their statement in such a manner from track record in the region. (Ahem certain religious institutions ahem) They overturned it because Riot thought it was fucking dumb.
Fact or assumption? I know Riot made a statement clarifying their stand, but to say it's causation is a different story. Well I've said my piece here, if you will want to insist on the stupidity of it all, I have provided alternative reasoning and logic, which if you feel is stupid too, then I can't really do any more to help you there.
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On February 04 2015 21:35 Don_Julio wrote:
Come on. Sex doesn't make a difference in computer games. Gender does.
What are you basing this statement off of?
Also how does creating a womens only tournament create a harassment-free environment and lol if you think thats what garena is trying to do
wtf is a harassment free environment aren;t normal league tournaments harassment free??
i dont think there has been any problems with male players sexually harassing female players who go to tournaments
if you mean spectators and internet people flaming well that happens to everybody in the spotlight
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I'm from the Philippines and it just pains me that we get to embarrass ourselves like this. But then again, we are a very hypocritical country so I guess that's just the way it is.
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Yay so it's not just Polish people who are embarrassed by their nationality!
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This seems like a well intentioned, but horribly phrased and executed ruling. I honestly don't get the backlash over it.
Especially when you take into account that in that region of the world the LGBT community is less accepted culturally in the first place. It's not right, but you can't expect them to skip a few steps of LGBT acceptance just because we as the western world already passed those steps.
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EPT
