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On July 15 2014 12:32 Nos- wrote:
yea cause even after 40 nerfs elise was still top tier pick LOL
I mean sure if you nerf elise you probably have to nerf lee as well but don't pretend like nerfing elise was unjustified or something
I am not saying the Elise nerfs weren't justified because they were. What I am saying is that if they were able to do it her they could do it with lee sin. It's just absurd that kha6,Elise,eve,vi, wu, and panth all have seen decent sized nerfs. While lee has only gotten stronger by nerfing his competition.
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Lee is the best because they've nerfed like 1 jungler a month since worlds.
and nerfed flare like 3 more times after the nerf that got it balanced thus making flare junglers bad again.
lets get some buffs going on pls
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Lee is only really strong at high levels of play. For the majority of players, there's LOTS of other champions that are stronger than Lee at their level. I don't even know why people are so complaining so hard about Lee.
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because if he continues to be the best competitive level jungler bar none, he will be nerfed making him even worse when played in solo q.
nobody is disputing he's not even very good if you don't have mechanics but the writing is on the wall, in fact riot has straight up said they want to nerf him as soon as they figure out how.
And I'd rather that didn't happen for the very reasons you mentioned.
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Id also prefer Lee to not be nerfed, but I just would like to know WHY he hasn't been, even though others have dropped like flies around him (also Thresh). Also, I'd like to know why some champions get straight up nerfed when they get strong, like Olaf (even post rework Olaf), Nasus, and Jax; while other OP/Overused champions get their power juggled around like Khazix and Renekton.
I mean, I at least understand Kassadin because they are trying to rework him into a state that makes sense, but hell, I dont understand which champs get reworked. Nidalee, Skarner, and Xerath before Poppy, Sion, and Yorick? Or what about Gragas? His rework didn't (and still doesnt) make any sense even at the time!
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Because they want the game to be fun to play and watch. Lee and Thresh are fun and interesting champions with high skill caps. Champions finish getting reworked before other champions because they figure out what direction they want to go in and finish reworking them faster. Gragas' rework made perfect sense. He was supposed to be more of a brawler kind of champion, but he instead became a mage who just used his ult + Q to one shot people.
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Not to mention a ton of people think Lee is reasonably balanced and other junglers just gotta get on his level
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I agree, except Riot clearly doesn't because everytime a champion is on his level...it isn't for long.
Also I don't buy the Thresh is fun/high skillcap argument, and no one should anymore (although it is true with Lee). His plays are often more annoying than fun (lantern saves) and people don't even do his "cool" hook lantern supergank thing much anymore. Also, Leblanc was basically the high skillcap super lady and they recently crushed her, whereas Ziggs and Lulu are fairly derp (in solo lanes, lulu is a fairly complex support if she ever goes back). And FFS Renekton/Shyvana? That argument is...beyond suspect, its just wrong.
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On July 15 2014 14:47 Ryuu314 wrote:
Not to mention a ton of people think Lee is reasonably balanced and other junglers just gotta get on his level
How can you say he is reasonable balenced? He is by far the strongest jungler in a 2v2 situation at level 3/4. He can can out duel all other junglers early and if for some reason he couldn't he will always get away. Unlike when Elise/kha6 were op he has an ult at level 6 that does a ton of damage. Lee also fits in every comp because of his peel/pick potential.
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On July 15 2014 15:09 IamPryda wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 14:47 Ryuu314 wrote:
Not to mention a ton of people think Lee is reasonably balanced and other junglers just gotta get on his level How can you say he is reasonable balenced? He is by far the strongest jungler in a 2v2 situation at level 3/4. He can can out duel all other junglers early and if for some reason he couldn't he will always get away. Unlike when Elise/kha6 were op he has an ult at level 6 that does a ton of damage. Lee also fits in every comp because of his peel/pick potential.
And has reveal built in.
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On July 15 2014 15:09 IamPryda wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 14:47 Ryuu314 wrote:
Not to mention a ton of people think Lee is reasonably balanced and other junglers just gotta get on his level How can you say he is reasonable balenced? He is by far the strongest jungler in a 2v2 situation at level 3/4. He can can out duel all other junglers early and if for some reason he couldn't he will always get away. Unlike when Elise/kha6 were op he has an ult at level 6 that does a ton of damage. Lee also fits in every comp because of his peel/pick potential.
Because he has weaknesses as well? Some champion has to be the strongest in a 2v2 situation at level 3/4 unless you want every champion to have exactly the same powercurves.
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On July 15 2014 14:58 cLutZ wrote:
I agree, except Riot clearly doesn't because everytime a champion is on his level...it isn't for long.
Also I don't buy the Thresh is fun/high skillcap argument, and no one should anymore (although it is true with Lee). His plays are often more annoying than fun (lantern saves) and people don't even do his "cool" hook lantern supergank thing much anymore. Also, Leblanc was basically the high skillcap super lady and they recently crushed her, whereas Ziggs and Lulu are fairly derp (in solo lanes, lulu is a fairly complex support if she ever goes back). And FFS Renekton/Shyvana? That argument is...beyond suspect, its just wrong.
Fun/high skillcap shouldn't be used as a reason for anyone. Fun is subjective. I find Thresh an absolute debacle, but Lee has his share of annoying shit too.
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On July 15 2014 15:17 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 15:09 IamPryda wrote:On July 15 2014 14:47 Ryuu314 wrote:
Not to mention a ton of people think Lee is reasonably balanced and other junglers just gotta get on his level How can you say he is reasonable balenced? He is by far the strongest jungler in a 2v2 situation at level 3/4. He can can out duel all other junglers early and if for some reason he couldn't he will always get away. Unlike when Elise/kha6 were op he has an ult at level 6 that does a ton of damage. Lee also fits in every comp because of his peel/pick potential. Because he has weaknesses as well? Some champion has to be the strongest in a 2v2 situation at level 3/4 unless you want every champion to have exactly the same powercurves.
O yeah I forgot lee has so many downsides..... What were they again?
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On July 15 2014 15:42 IamPryda wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 15:17 zodde wrote:On July 15 2014 15:09 IamPryda wrote:On July 15 2014 14:47 Ryuu314 wrote:
Not to mention a ton of people think Lee is reasonably balanced and other junglers just gotta get on his level How can you say he is reasonable balenced? He is by far the strongest jungler in a 2v2 situation at level 3/4. He can can out duel all other junglers early and if for some reason he couldn't he will always get away. Unlike when Elise/kha6 were op he has an ult at level 6 that does a ton of damage. Lee also fits in every comp because of his peel/pick potential. Because he has weaknesses as well? Some champion has to be the strongest in a 2v2 situation at level 3/4 unless you want every champion to have exactly the same powercurves. O yeah I forgot lee has so many downsides..... What were they again?
garbage late game, 6item sej, naut,wukong,mao etc are 100x better, not to mention they can be played with 1 hand
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On July 15 2014 14:58 cLutZ wrote:
I agree, except Riot clearly doesn't because everytime a champion is on his level...it isn't for long.
Also I don't buy the Thresh is fun/high skillcap argument, and no one should anymore (although it is true with Lee). His plays are often more annoying than fun (lantern saves) and people don't even do his "cool" hook lantern supergank thing much anymore. Also, Leblanc was basically the high skillcap super lady and they recently crushed her, whereas Ziggs and Lulu are fairly derp (in solo lanes, lulu is a fairly complex support if she ever goes back). And FFS Renekton/Shyvana? That argument is...beyond suspect, its just wrong.
LeBlanc was a problem because of the lack of counterplay. She could dash in, burst/silence you and dash out without you being able to do anything about it. Ziggs has been nerfed multiple times recently. Lulu's been nerfed and likely will be again. Shyvana's not even played much anymore, and Renekton had his early game nerfed and hasn't been comparable to Lee in terms of strength for quite a while now.
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His late game is far from garbage. And his scaling being poor is blown out of proportion. And honestly how many games are u getting to 6 item sej and wu. And sure let's buff lee because silver league players can't ward jump
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On July 15 2014 15:59 IamPryda wrote:
His late game is far from garbage. And his scaling being poor is blown out of proportion. And honestly how many games are u getting to 6 item sej and wu. And sure let's buff lee because silver league players can't ward jump
u dont even need 6, most utility tanks already outscale him at 3-4, myth he has low winrate only in low elo is as true as amumu being good only in bronze meanwhile he has 55% winrate and is top3 at every elo
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Leesin is the best jungler atm, there's just no debate. He's banned pretty often in solo queue diamond right now which hasn't been happening since a pretty long time. He has the strongest early game AND has escape mechanics (a big difference with a jungler like xin who has godlike early but IS allin every time he goes in).
He snowballs really hard, exactly the thing you don't want to face in solo queue, I can't count the number of games where I've seen lee's going 10/0 and just winning the game alone by making plays all over the map. As long as they don't nerf his Q range again or buff the other junglers this won't change.
The only jungler that comes close, to me, is vi. She can be absurd in solo queue with a two damage item build if you snowball but she has less tools than lee to cover misplays. Lee can just "nvm w out" or "nvm kick you in da face and I'm gone" every time he overextends.
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On July 15 2014 15:59 IamPryda wrote:
His late game is far from garbage. And his scaling being poor is blown out of proportion. And honestly how many games are u getting to 6 item sej and wu. And sure let's buff lee because silver league players can't ward jump
lolol. I would take almost any 6 item jungle over a 6 item lee pretty much anytime.
Lee excels and shits on everyone when he's ahead, but when they start getting even/pulling a bit ahead his problems become alot more obvious.
and no his late game being shitty isnt blown out of proportion by any means
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On July 15 2014 17:07 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2014 15:59 IamPryda wrote:
His late game is far from garbage. And his scaling being poor is blown out of proportion. And honestly how many games are u getting to 6 item sej and wu. And sure let's buff lee because silver league players can't ward jump lolol. I would take almost any 6 item jungle over a 6 item lee pretty much anytime. Lee excels and shits on everyone when he's ahead, but when they start getting even/pulling a bit ahead his problems become alot more obvious. and no his late game being shitty isnt blown out of proportion by any means
The only problem that becomes obvious is he doesn't deal absurd amounts of damage he still has insane amounts of peel and and mobility which is one of the most desirable things on a champion currently. Being that safe and strong for the first 20 mins of a game is way to much of an advantage. U can only watch bad lee sins get away with mistakes that would put any other jungler way behind for so long before changes are made.
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EPT
