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[Patch 3.13] Heimer Rework General Discussion - Page 26

Forum Index > LoL General
Post a Reply
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Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-31 14:41:36
October 31 2013 14:40 GMT
#501
On October 31 2013 23:27 AsnSensation wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2013 23:20 Gahlo wrote:
On October 31 2013 22:08 nafta wrote:
On October 31 2013 21:57 Gahlo wrote:
Why has TF Vayne not become a thing again?

Too expensive.Also bork first is stronger.

I was alluding to TF second.

On October 31 2013 22:08 Wrag wrote:
On October 31 2013 21:57 Gahlo wrote:
Why has TF Vayne not become a thing again?


Probably because she can't reliably chain the procs. Even tho Q has a short-ish CD, her other 2 active skills are situational/long cd, and using condemn in most cases puts her target out of range. The sheen stats appart from proc are mostly wasted as well.Also, Botrk being so much better as core puts TF in a situationnal late buy position for her.
Early phage could be a strong buy, but delays botrk substantialy.

See above about Bork. Tumble cd at max cd matches up with Sheens internal cooldown, so as long as she's auto attacking she can potentially trigger sheen till the cows come home(she goes oom, which sheen conveniently increases.) The only real wasted stats on TF for her is the AP, but there are numerous champions who have more wasted/off stats that pick up TF anyway.


such as?

Wasted:
Lee Sin: Mana

Off stats:
Ezreal, Corki, Lucian: HP & AP
Nasus, Udyr: Crit, AP, AD
Vi/LeeSin/Xin: AD, AP, Crit, AS

Sprinkle mana into Off Stats where you desire based on how spammy you are.

Champions picked from most frequent by % from lolking.
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21248 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-31 14:45:27
October 31 2013 14:45 GMT
#502
On October 31 2013 23:40 Gahlo wrote:

Wasted:
Lee Sin: Mana

Off stats:
Ezreal, Corki, Lucian: HP & AP
Nasus, Udyr: Crit, AP, AD
Vi/LeeSin/Xin: AD, AP, Crit, AS

Sprinkle mana into Off Stats where you desire based on how spammy you are.

Champions picked from most frequent by % from lolking.


Litereally none of those are wasted except for Lee Sin: Mana, off stats don't count as wasted not to mentin they all scale preeeeeetty well with those stats

like how the fuck is AD wsted on Vi/Lee or HP wasted on anyone? AP AD wasted on Udyr? The fuck lol

Honestly I could say that about every single stat-champ combo you have there @_@
TranslatorBaa!
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
October 31 2013 14:45 GMT
#503
On October 31 2013 23:36 Requizen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2013 23:35 jcarlsoniv wrote:
On October 31 2013 23:34 Requizen wrote:
Shy would be a good example. Crit's not huge on her, AP is pretty minimal, manaless.


You're an expert on Shy after last night, right?

Super expert. Super duper dumpstered.

Spelling fixed.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
October 31 2013 14:45 GMT
#504
All the Triforce users want rounded damage stats because their baseline kits don't provide any inherent steroids, or they are slightly AS heavy. This isn't the case with Vayne because her baseline kit is not well-rounded or AS-heavy. Her baseline kit is extremely AD heavy, which means she needs an AS-heavy item to complement this.

You optimize your damage-dealing capability when AD and AS are balanced. Being heavily tilted toward AS favors buying AD-centric items, being heavily tilted toward AD favors buying AS-centric items, and being well-rounded favors well rounded items/combinations of items.
Moderator
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
October 31 2013 14:46 GMT
#505
On October 31 2013 23:45 Alaric wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2013 23:36 Requizen wrote:
On October 31 2013 23:35 jcarlsoniv wrote:
On October 31 2013 23:34 Requizen wrote:
Shy would be a good example. Crit's not huge on her, AP is pretty minimal, manaless.


You're an expert on Shy after last night, right?

Super expert. Super duper dumpstered.

Spelling fixed.

It was fine until she roamed mid and killed that shitty Heimer player. Report feed.

+ Show Spoiler +
:3
It's your boy Guzma!
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
October 31 2013 14:47 GMT
#506
On October 31 2013 23:40 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2013 23:27 AsnSensation wrote:
On October 31 2013 23:20 Gahlo wrote:
On October 31 2013 22:08 nafta wrote:
On October 31 2013 21:57 Gahlo wrote:
Why has TF Vayne not become a thing again?

Too expensive.Also bork first is stronger.

I was alluding to TF second.

On October 31 2013 22:08 Wrag wrote:
On October 31 2013 21:57 Gahlo wrote:
Why has TF Vayne not become a thing again?


Probably because she can't reliably chain the procs. Even tho Q has a short-ish CD, her other 2 active skills are situational/long cd, and using condemn in most cases puts her target out of range. The sheen stats appart from proc are mostly wasted as well.Also, Botrk being so much better as core puts TF in a situationnal late buy position for her.
Early phage could be a strong buy, but delays botrk substantialy.

See above about Bork. Tumble cd at max cd matches up with Sheens internal cooldown, so as long as she's auto attacking she can potentially trigger sheen till the cows come home(she goes oom, which sheen conveniently increases.) The only real wasted stats on TF for her is the AP, but there are numerous champions who have more wasted/off stats that pick up TF anyway.


such as?

Wasted:
Lee Sin: Mana

Off stats:
Ezreal, Corki, Lucian: HP & AP
Nasus, Udyr: Crit, AP, AD
Vi/LeeSin/Xin: AD, AP, Crit, AS

Sprinkle mana into Off Stats where you desire based on how spammy you are.

Champions picked from most frequent by % from lolking.

HP is never wasted, wtf. And Vi actually scales decently with AD and AS, same for Xin (especially for him as far as AD is concerned) since pretty much all of his damage is autos.
Tiger Udyr uses the AD. Lee uses the AD too since the longer the game goes the more he relies on autos for damage.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Profile Joined December 2010
Denmark697 Posts
October 31 2013 14:49 GMT
#507
One of the oddities of TF is the fact that it gives this proc that rewards using a lot of spells, but also gives AS which only affects auto attacks.

It really shows that this was originally designed to be the perfect all-round item rather than a specialized burst item.
Go try StarBow on the Arcade. TL thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=440661
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
October 31 2013 14:50 GMT
#508
Speaking of items and builds, do you think we're going to see an overhaul even close to the size that S3 had? Obviously Jungle and Support items are getting some revamps, but do you think we'll see other stuff get changes?

Obviously all speculation but was just thinking of it.
It's your boy Guzma!
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-31 14:55:15
October 31 2013 14:53 GMT
#509
On October 31 2013 23:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2013 23:40 Gahlo wrote:

Wasted:
Lee Sin: Mana

Off stats:
Ezreal, Corki, Lucian: HP & AP
Nasus, Udyr: Crit, AP, AD
Vi/LeeSin/Xin: AD, AP, Crit, AS

Sprinkle mana into Off Stats where you desire based on how spammy you are.

Champions picked from most frequent by % from lolking.


Litereally none of those are wasted except for Lee Sin: Mana, off stats don't count as wasted not to mentin they all scale preeeeeetty well with those stats

like how the fuck is AD wsted on Vi/Lee or HP wasted on anyone? AP AD wasted on Udyr? The fuck lol

Honestly I could say that about every single stat-champ combo you have there @_@

That's why I seperated off and wasted stats. If I was claiming the off stats were wasted, I would have put them in the same category.

On October 31 2013 23:47 Alaric wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2013 23:40 Gahlo wrote:
On October 31 2013 23:27 AsnSensation wrote:
On October 31 2013 23:20 Gahlo wrote:
On October 31 2013 22:08 nafta wrote:
On October 31 2013 21:57 Gahlo wrote:
Why has TF Vayne not become a thing again?

Too expensive.Also bork first is stronger.

I was alluding to TF second.

On October 31 2013 22:08 Wrag wrote:
On October 31 2013 21:57 Gahlo wrote:
Why has TF Vayne not become a thing again?


Probably because she can't reliably chain the procs. Even tho Q has a short-ish CD, her other 2 active skills are situational/long cd, and using condemn in most cases puts her target out of range. The sheen stats appart from proc are mostly wasted as well.Also, Botrk being so much better as core puts TF in a situationnal late buy position for her.
Early phage could be a strong buy, but delays botrk substantialy.

See above about Bork. Tumble cd at max cd matches up with Sheens internal cooldown, so as long as she's auto attacking she can potentially trigger sheen till the cows come home(she goes oom, which sheen conveniently increases.) The only real wasted stats on TF for her is the AP, but there are numerous champions who have more wasted/off stats that pick up TF anyway.


such as?

Wasted:
Lee Sin: Mana

Off stats:
Ezreal, Corki, Lucian: HP & AP
Nasus, Udyr: Crit, AP, AD
Vi/LeeSin/Xin: AD, AP, Crit, AS

Sprinkle mana into Off Stats where you desire based on how spammy you are.

Champions picked from most frequent by % from lolking.

HP is never wasted, wtf. And Vi actually scales decently with AD and AS, same for Xin (especially for him as far as AD is concerned) since pretty much all of his damage is autos.
Tiger Udyr uses the AD. Lee uses the AD too since the longer the game goes the more he relies on autos for damage.

Do I have to bold "Wasted" and "Off" so people will read that I am grouping them differently?
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23460 Posts
October 31 2013 14:54 GMT
#510
"Wasted" and "low efficiency" are different. Even annie can use crit because she technically auto attacks. Tiger udyr might get like 15 more on his shield (or phenoix like 5 damage on his r or something) but you'd never buy deathcap on him so you can say the ap is wasted, you can say the crit is wasted and mana is debateable, but id lean toward it being wasted only if you have another mana item already.
aka Teutonica
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
October 31 2013 14:57 GMT
#511
Who buys tf on lee?
Freeeeeeedom
Kyrie
Profile Joined June 2013
1594 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-31 15:00:11
October 31 2013 14:59 GMT
#512
real men and voyboy

tf akali and shen too
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23460 Posts
October 31 2013 14:59 GMT
#513
who buys trinity on nasus any more either?
nobody remembers bruisers which buy trinity any more lol.
Irelia, Jax are good examples, except jax uses all the stats better than most
aka Teutonica
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
October 31 2013 15:03 GMT
#514
On October 31 2013 23:59 Slayer91 wrote:
who buys trinity on nasus any more either?
nobody remembers bruisers which buy trinity any more lol.
Irelia, Jax are good examples, except jax uses all the stats better than most

http://www.lolking.net/items/3078#topchampions
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21248 Posts
October 31 2013 15:05 GMT
#515
On October 31 2013 23:53 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2013 23:45 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On October 31 2013 23:40 Gahlo wrote:

Wasted:
Lee Sin: Mana

Off stats:
Ezreal, Corki, Lucian: HP & AP
Nasus, Udyr: Crit, AP, AD
Vi/LeeSin/Xin: AD, AP, Crit, AS

Sprinkle mana into Off Stats where you desire based on how spammy you are.

Champions picked from most frequent by % from lolking.


Litereally none of those are wasted except for Lee Sin: Mana, off stats don't count as wasted not to mentin they all scale preeeeeetty well with those stats

like how the fuck is AD wsted on Vi/Lee or HP wasted on anyone? AP AD wasted on Udyr? The fuck lol

Honestly I could say that about every single stat-champ combo you have there @_@

That's why I seperated off and wasted stats. If I was claiming the off stats were wasted, I would have put them in the same category.

Show nested quote +
On October 31 2013 23:47 Alaric wrote:
On October 31 2013 23:40 Gahlo wrote:
On October 31 2013 23:27 AsnSensation wrote:
On October 31 2013 23:20 Gahlo wrote:
On October 31 2013 22:08 nafta wrote:
On October 31 2013 21:57 Gahlo wrote:
Why has TF Vayne not become a thing again?

Too expensive.Also bork first is stronger.

I was alluding to TF second.

On October 31 2013 22:08 Wrag wrote:
On October 31 2013 21:57 Gahlo wrote:
Why has TF Vayne not become a thing again?


Probably because she can't reliably chain the procs. Even tho Q has a short-ish CD, her other 2 active skills are situational/long cd, and using condemn in most cases puts her target out of range. The sheen stats appart from proc are mostly wasted as well.Also, Botrk being so much better as core puts TF in a situationnal late buy position for her.
Early phage could be a strong buy, but delays botrk substantialy.

See above about Bork. Tumble cd at max cd matches up with Sheens internal cooldown, so as long as she's auto attacking she can potentially trigger sheen till the cows come home(she goes oom, which sheen conveniently increases.) The only real wasted stats on TF for her is the AP, but there are numerous champions who have more wasted/off stats that pick up TF anyway.


such as?

Wasted:
Lee Sin: Mana

Off stats:
Ezreal, Corki, Lucian: HP & AP
Nasus, Udyr: Crit, AP, AD
Vi/LeeSin/Xin: AD, AP, Crit, AS

Sprinkle mana into Off Stats where you desire based on how spammy you are.

Champions picked from most frequent by % from lolking.

HP is never wasted, wtf. And Vi actually scales decently with AD and AS, same for Xin (especially for him as far as AD is concerned) since pretty much all of his damage is autos.
Tiger Udyr uses the AD. Lee uses the AD too since the longer the game goes the more he relies on autos for damage.

Do I have to bold "Wasted" and "Off" so people will read that I am grouping them differently?


That's stupid because you're implying that an ADC buying defensive stats is "off" and therefore you shouldn't do it, or that a bruiser buying damage is bad cause you should be tanking and buying only hp armor mr

It's a stupid distinction and doesn't say anything meaningful, and contributes nothing to proving your point that people buy TF when it's not optimal. In fact it works against it.
TranslatorBaa!
GhandiEAGLE
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States20754 Posts
October 31 2013 15:05 GMT
#516
I was playing Lucian the other day, and Nocturne ulted into me. I panicked and ulted, he dived into my and died to it before he even got to me xD

It was really just a shot in the dark lol
Oh, my achin' hands, from rakin' in grands, and breakin' in mic stands
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23460 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-31 15:08:29
October 31 2013 15:07 GMT
#517
On November 01 2013 00:03 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2013 23:59 Slayer91 wrote:
who buys trinity on nasus any more either?
nobody remembers bruisers which buy trinity any more lol.
Irelia, Jax are good examples, except jax uses all the stats better than most

http://www.lolking.net/items/3078#topchampions


someone tell them all to read my guide
don't think its that good on xin or vi either (okay maybe on vi if you are super fed because early trinity proc is so much damage)
aka Teutonica
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-31 15:17:12
October 31 2013 15:08 GMT
#518
'k so I'll just say HP is always good. It's just that sometimes there's even better stuff.

On November 01 2013 00:05 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
I was playing Lucian the other day, and Nocturne ulted into me. I panicked and ulted, he dived into my and died to it before he even got to me xD

It was really just a shot in the dark lol

And then you look so badass to your teammtes. Had this Cait that was getting dove every fight, as J4 I was burning my stuff on Fizz to force him to use his spells/flash/Zhonya before he reached her, and in the fight that turned the game I wa desperately trying to peel him off as Cait was already low, but he managed to get in Q range, dashed... and died almost in melee range of Cait, her last auto before he applied the damage. Ace, we got two inhibs and nash, and one ace later we won. I wouldn't be able to finish Fizz myself so it was pretty tense and then all hail Cait \o/
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
October 31 2013 15:10 GMT
#519
On November 01 2013 00:08 Alaric wrote:
'k so I'll just HP is always good. It's just that sometimes there's even better stuff.

Lies. Everyone should rush Warmog's.

Health is only "not good" (as in, super suboptimal) when you already get a lot or have a lot of free, easily spammable lifesteal/spellvamp, at which point resists outweigh it by a good margin.
It's your boy Guzma!
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23460 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-31 15:15:54
October 31 2013 15:14 GMT
#520
you guys have wrong definitions of good.
Anything sub optimal is not good. Trinity is not good on most adcs because its sub optimal. That doesn't mean id prefer to not have a trinity over having a free trinity

hp is decent on trinity because even if its slightly sub optimal the cost efficiency of trinity means you're getting it for half price so its never that bad. (however mana, ap, crit often are)
aka Teutonica
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