EPT[Patch 3.07: Nerf Everything Not Nami] General Discussion…
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Looks like we're back to status quo. Hope more of you lurkers unburrow and talk with us. :3 If you have any issues or comments about the new design, feel free to PM Neo. | ||
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On June 03 2013 23:52 Capped wrote: Is it viable to run AP / Support bot lane if mid goes an AD Assassin like zed? Soraka/Cassio has always been a hilariously strong lane | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On June 03 2013 23:52 jcarlsoniv wrote: Soraka/Cassio has always been a hilariously strong lane Also, Xerath Soraka | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
Going by those two descriptions, Zed (an assassin) doesn't really fit the description of an AD carry. Sure he does AD damage, but his sustained damage is pretty low. Ideally you want want someone like Ez or Vayne in one of the solo lanes so that you still have late game sustained damage, or you need to close out games before it drags on too long and their AD carry picks your team apart. EDIT: There are a few APs with high sustained dps. The three that come to mind are Ryze, Karthus, and Cassio. However they are much riskier than ranged AD's and (generally) easier to itemize against. APs in general do not scale as well as AD due to the mulplicative natures of AD, AS, and crit%. | ||
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On June 03 2013 23:52 jcarlsoniv wrote: Soraka/Cassio has always been a hilariously strong lane It seems very susceptible of losing to heavy cc supports and heavy jungler presence. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On June 03 2013 23:52 Capped wrote: Is it viable to run AP / Support bot lane if mid goes an AD Assassin like zed? We tested this in TROLLS more than anything else, and the answer is pretty much yes. Best APs for it as far as we could tell were Annie, Ryze and Cassiopeia. Good supports are like, anybody who can put some CC down for them to burst somebody, or Soraka to keep them mana happy. Works better on purple side where you can give them blue buffs, and they don't like lane swaps as much as adc/support because it's more difficult for the AP to push towers. | ||
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Wrag
France124 Posts
On June 03 2013 23:46 Ketara wrote: Which is really dumb too. There are so very few blind/dodge mechanics in the game, and none of the champions that have them are super-OP. Why don't they stop the on hit effect? It doesn't make any sort of sense other than from a pure gameplay balance perspective. What champions even have blind/dodge mechanics? Jax Quinn Heimerdinger Fiora Teemo Pantheon Am I missing anybody? None of the above are currently considered super competitive. In fact Fiora and Heimer I think are considered to be two of the worst champions in the game. I'm guessing the initial interractions between skill & effect just resulted from the way each of them were coded. Riot already went on a number of normalization binges (like effects reducing true damage, movement skills breaking roots etc.) Don't remember them doing anything about blinds/on hit so i guess the current state is a result of initial state + localized tweaks, but not something coming out of a more general reflection. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On June 03 2013 23:17 ticklishmusic wrote: Someone mentions Teemo AD awhile ago... Well, in the very specific situation of someone picking Vayne, he might be good. His lack of range doesn't matter because she's equally crappy in that regard, and the blind really screws Vayne over. You'd still want an AD though, but you could probably get away with an AD top or mid. There are so many champions who shut Vayne down harder than Teemo ever could. And if you wanted a champion with a blind for some reason Quinn is much stronger in bot lane than Teemo and can abuse a Vayne way harder than Teemo. But if you really wanted to anti-pick Vayne you'd just pick someone who's OP at lane phase like Caitlyn or Graves and take literal shits on her face. Theory craft bot lane Teemo is so bad anyway for a lot of reasons. If you build him AD it's dumb as hell because AP Teemo is vastly superior and in most cases building AP makes your autos hurt just as much as AD Teemo (unless you build glass cannon crit Teemo which is even worse since he'll just insta-die in fights and your shrooms won't chunk people for 1/3 of their health). So if you're going to build him AP it means you probably have another AD in some other lane or are running a weird comp with no ADC. That's cool, I'm down with that. The problem then becomes, "why Teemo???" If you're going to run an AP champion in bottom lane there are probably ten or twelve AP champions who can abuse bot lanes harder than Teemo can while still doing the same shit he'd do in late game team fights but better. I think that Teemo is really strong in top lane. Fairly decent in mid lane. But I have no clue why you'd want to run Teemo bot lane. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
Compare your auto+blind damage with equal range to her, to a Caitlyn that can hit her just about every time she tries to cs and you'll see why Caitlyn is such a better counter to Vayne in lane. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On June 03 2013 23:57 Ketara wrote: We tested this in TROLLS more than anything else, and the answer is pretty much yes. Best APs for it as far as we could tell were Annie, Ryze and Cassiopeia. Good supports are like, anybody who can put some CC down for them to burst somebody, or Soraka to keep them mana happy. Works better on purple side where you can give them blue buffs, and they don't like lane swaps as much as adc/support because it's more difficult for the AP to push towers. That's my main concern about it. There seems to be a lack of tower pushing potential so if you don't smash the lane do you just eventually hit a wall? | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
I see nothing wrong with running AP+support bot and Jayce or Ez mid though. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On June 04 2013 00:14 Numy wrote: That's my main concern about it. There seems to be a lack of tower pushing potential so if you don't smash the lane do you just eventually hit a wall? Depends. I'm gonna assume your team has no ADC at all. But you could always run an AP bot lane and put your ADC in mid or top lane as a counter-pick to certain champions. If you're running no ADC at all though and you had something like mid lane Zed with an AP bot lane the biggest problem you're going to have is gonna occur if the enemy team has tons of peel for their ADC. With two giant bursters your team has a superior mid game over the enemy team. It's not a secret that nearly every ADC has an abysmal mid game so you absolutely have to abuse that to get ahead and hopefully end the game before the enemy ADC can become ridiculous. If it gets to late game though and if the enemy team doesn't have much peel it isn't necessarily the end of the world. While defending, or shoving, you can still win team fights if you gib the ADC early. If you're running a bruiser top, AD assassin mid, and an AP bot lane your team has so much burst that you can probably insta-gib the enemy ADC and AP fairly consistently in fights. Towers don't really mean shit late game when it comes to damage and if you have a strong initiating jungler/top laner you can still win late game team fights and push down towers without an ADC. AP carries deal a lot of damage to towers fyi. They typically don't shred them as fast as ADCs but they still kill them pretty damn quick. You can always build lich bane on the AP too because with lich bane you can probably kill towers faster than an ADC can. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On June 04 2013 00:14 Numy wrote: That's my main concern about it. There seems to be a lack of tower pushing potential so if you don't smash the lane do you just eventually hit a wall? I think that's why Annie has become my favorite, because she actually can push towers with her long AA range and Tibbers. Tibbers murderizes towers if nobody is there to stop him from tanking aggro away from a minion wave. But Annie doesn't have sustained damage like Ryze/Cass, so if you use her your AD mid needs to be somebody with strong sustained damage OR you need to push and win before superlategame. | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On June 03 2013 23:46 Ketara wrote: Which is really dumb too. There are so very few blind/dodge mechanics in the game, and none of the champions that have them are super-OP. Why don't they stop the on hit effect? It doesn't make any sort of sense other than from a pure gameplay balance perspective. What champions even have blind/dodge mechanics? Jax Quinn Heimerdinger Fiora Teemo Pantheon Am I missing anybody? None of the above are currently considered super competitive. In fact Fiora and Heimer I think are considered to be two of the worst champions in the game. According to the wiki, blinds mitigates all physical damage from autoattacks, including physical on-hits. Other on-hit abilities are still applied. Blinds also cause abilities that apply on-hits to not deal physical damage. (Even weirder, thornmail will still proc through blinds, as thornmail is applied before the blind) Abilities that dodge/block autoattacks are weirder. Apparently Nasus's Withering Strike will hit through Jax's Counterstrike, but not Fiora's Riposte. Finally, abilities that convert autoattack damage into magic damage (like TF's PAC) add yet another wrinkle to the whole thing. Generally these don't get blocked. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14081 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14081 Posts
On June 04 2013 01:32 Ghost-z wrote: Why does everyone act like vayne has such shitty low range when her AA range is 550 which is perfectly average for an ADC. Her shitty range also refers to her shitty standoff range, ie she doesn't have any abilities that go past that 550 barrier unlike a ton of other adc's. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On June 04 2013 01:31 Alaric wrote: I hate whoever made people think TP/Smite and rushing mobos homeguard was a good idea. It's almost as stupid as the blue rush, 'cept you don't see it as often. ._. Players need to be educated. It's so awesome on Rammus <3 | ||
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