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On April 30 2013 01:00 Mondeezy wrote:
Can someone explain why TF is so much stronger in KR/EU/Chinese scene than in NA? Seems like he's perma ban status there, but over here I only see him banned occasionally in LCS and never in ranked games.
Like, do they play him a certain way that people haven't picked up in NA?
Because KR/EU/Chinese mids are just better.
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On April 30 2013 01:04 TheYango wrote:
Not "in a certain way", they just play the hero better.
How, though?
I mean he's obv high skill cap, do they just farm passively until 6 and then gank off cooldown? It's probably different in the competitive scene, but in my ranked games every time I see one he's a ganking machine or he becomes useless pre-6 if camped enough. Then again I'm only in gold so I have no clue what it's like at higher levels of play, and KR matches are at 3AM on class/work days for me 
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On April 30 2013 01:16 Mondeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 01:04 TheYango wrote:
Not "in a certain way", they just play the hero better. How, though? I mean he's obv high skill cap, do they just farm passively until 6 and then gank off cooldown? It's probably different in the competitive scene, but in my ranked games every time I see one he's a ganking machine or he becomes useless pre-6 if camped enough. Then again I'm only in gold so I have no clue what it's like at higher levels of play, and KR matches are at 3AM on class/work days for me
It's like asking why Chinese ADC's play Varus better than any other region.
It's because Chinese ADC's are just a class above everyone else.
The same reason applies for mids, NA's mids just blow donkey testicles.
You seriously could have replaced "TF" with any other mid champion, like Zed, diana, kayle, etc etc, and it would still hold true.
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Are the trundle and Sej reworks already live? can't log in for 2 days
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On April 30 2013 01:19 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 01:16 Mondeezy wrote:On April 30 2013 01:04 TheYango wrote:
Not "in a certain way", they just play the hero better. How, though? I mean he's obv high skill cap, do they just farm passively until 6 and then gank off cooldown? It's probably different in the competitive scene, but in my ranked games every time I see one he's a ganking machine or he becomes useless pre-6 if camped enough. Then again I'm only in gold so I have no clue what it's like at higher levels of play, and KR matches are at 3AM on class/work days for me It's like asking why Chinese ADC's play Varus better than any other region. It's because Chinese ADC's are just a class above everyone else. The same reason applies for mids, NA's mids just blow donkey testicles. You seriously could have replaced "TF" with any other mid champion, like Zed, diana, kayle, etc etc, and it would still hold true.
Lol I see. Guess I will just have to watch some VoD's then 
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United States47024 Posts
On April 30 2013 01:19 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 01:16 Mondeezy wrote:On April 30 2013 01:04 TheYango wrote:
Not "in a certain way", they just play the hero better. How, though? I mean he's obv high skill cap, do they just farm passively until 6 and then gank off cooldown? It's probably different in the competitive scene, but in my ranked games every time I see one he's a ganking machine or he becomes useless pre-6 if camped enough. Then again I'm only in gold so I have no clue what it's like at higher levels of play, and KR matches are at 3AM on class/work days for me It's like asking why Chinese ADC's play Varus better than any other region. It's because Chinese ADC's are just a class above everyone else. The same reason applies for mids, NA's mids just blow donkey testicles. You seriously could have replaced "TF" with any other mid champion, like Zed, diana, kayle, etc etc, and it would still hold true.
Well in the specific case of TF, there's a certain amount of map sense that goes into ult usage.
Obviously it's straightforward to use the ult to gank. But the thing you will notice with Asian TF play is that there's a certain amount of map sense that goes into using the ult midgame to catch someone that's out of position--you might not have direct vision, but based on their sense of the game flow, they can tell that someone is PROBABLY in a vulnerable position, ult, re-assess their assumptions based on knowing the position of all 5 enemies, and then go for a vulnerable target that would otherwise be totally safe against any other hero. The ability to do this creates a certain implicit map pressure where even if you expect to have vision control, you don't have a guarantee of safety because the vision-granting aspect of TF ulti allows TF to go for targets that he didn't even know 100% were there until he cast the ult in the first place.
This should have been apparent from the M5 vs WE game at IPL5. There are at least 2-3 successful catches that game where Misaya ults in a position where he doesn't actually have complete knowledge of where the enemy team actually is, but based on their prior movements/objective-taking he can guess roughly that someone is potentially alone and can be caught.
At a surface level, it seems like they're just gambling with the ult expecting there to be a vulnerable target without any real guarantee, but it's more of an intelligent prediction than just straight gambling because they can generally evaluate how the enemy team is going to move after they take an objective/etc.
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United States23745 Posts
On April 30 2013 01:16 Mondeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 01:04 TheYango wrote:
Not "in a certain way", they just play the hero better. How, though? I mean he's obv high skill cap, do they just farm passively until 6 and then gank off cooldown? It's probably different in the competitive scene, but in my ranked games every time I see one he's a ganking machine or he becomes useless pre-6 if camped enough. Then again I'm only in gold so I have no clue what it's like at higher levels of play, and KR matches are at 3AM on class/work days for me
Less Red Cards more Gold Cards hue. Jokes aside, KR players are better at locking in that first card that pops up if it's what they want. NA TF's usually wait a rotation before they try and grab it, and still sometimes pick the wrong card.
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On April 30 2013 01:21 AsnSensation wrote:
Are the trundle and Sej reworks already live? can't log in for 2 days
Nope.
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On April 30 2013 01:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 01:19 wei2coolman wrote:On April 30 2013 01:16 Mondeezy wrote:On April 30 2013 01:04 TheYango wrote:
Not "in a certain way", they just play the hero better. How, though? I mean he's obv high skill cap, do they just farm passively until 6 and then gank off cooldown? It's probably different in the competitive scene, but in my ranked games every time I see one he's a ganking machine or he becomes useless pre-6 if camped enough. Then again I'm only in gold so I have no clue what it's like at higher levels of play, and KR matches are at 3AM on class/work days for me It's like asking why Chinese ADC's play Varus better than any other region. It's because Chinese ADC's are just a class above everyone else. The same reason applies for mids, NA's mids just blow donkey testicles. You seriously could have replaced "TF" with any other mid champion, like Zed, diana, kayle, etc etc, and it would still hold true. Well in the specific case of TF, there's a certain amount of map sense that goes into ult usage. Obviously it's straightforward to use the ult to gank. But the thing you will notice with Asian TF play is that there's a certain amount of map sense that goes into using the ult midgame to catch someone that's out of position--you might not have direct vision, but based on their sense of the game flow, they can tell that someone is PROBABLY in a vulnerable position, ult, re-assess their assumptions based on knowing the position of all 5 enemies, and then go for a vulnerable target that would otherwise be totally safe against any other hero. The ability to do this creates a certain implicit map pressure where even if you expect to have vision control, you don't have a guarantee of safety because the vision-granting aspect of TF ulti allows TF to go for targets that he didn't even know 100% were there until he cast the ult in the first place. This should have been apparent from the M5 vs WE game at IPL5. There are at least 2-3 successful catches that game where Misaya ults in a position where he doesn't actually have complete knowledge of where the enemy team actually is, but based on their prior movements/objective-taking he can guess roughly that someone is potentially alone and can be caught. At a surface level, it seems like they're just gambling with the ult expecting there to be a vulnerable target without any real guarantee, but it's more of an intelligent prediction than just straight gambling because they can generally evaluate how the enemy team is going to move after they take an objective/etc.
I feel this is even more well-demonstrated when you look at some of the NA TF games where the TF pops ulti, and NOBODY in range is vulnerable, and the ulti is a wash. (Even Regi) - The steps go
'know when someone is likely to be vulnerable without perfect vision ->
ult and confirm vulnerability ->
gate in and collect kill'
and all of this is a really big part of TF. NA players just aren't so good at step 1 without having the the vision granted by wards, when there are times you should be able to do it without. I feel like Ecco is the only NA TF that really brings the champ up to potential, though Regi has vastly improved his TF play as well (Making mistakes at the pick-a-card minigame has little to do with being good at TF map-sense)
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Finland33997 Posts
It's weird, though. I was under the impression that Regi played some TF back when locking in gold cards was actually difficult(you had like... a third of the current time to do it?)
Then again back then the gold card was an AoE stun that dealt more damage than a Leblanc Q.
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Wasn't that like, you didn't lock in cards at all, you just got whatever card happened to be up when you autoed
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United States47024 Posts
You always locked cards, but the amount of time each card showed was variable. Blue card also had a different effect--instead of the mana restore, it allowed you to instantly repick a new card, so as long as you didn't get red cards, you could just pick again even if you didn't get a gold.
Sheen also had no internal cooldown, so chain-blue card was actually pretty stupid because every repick was an additional sheen/Lichbane proc.
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United States37500 Posts
From a region perspective, NA Mids don't have the understanding of what Twisted Fate is supposed to do. It seems like such a blunt statement to make but just look at how scarra played TF in the past two weeks and NyJacky in the past.
Regi, for all the flak he gets, his mid/late game TF is half decent. He needs to brush up on his mechanics (hello Red Card ganks, hello Gold Card on minions) and better usage of his first 1-3 Destinies.
Edit: ecco is a superb TF, probably the best NA TF I've seen. Not sure who else comes close.
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in the sejuani spotlight, whenever there's cc on the other team they get a white duration ticker under their name - is that option available to players?
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I'll agree that Ecco is a good TF. I think Link might be up there too, but meh. Whenever I see Ecco's TF in soloq you know shit's gonna go down
On April 30 2013 03:00 greggy wrote:
in the sejuani spotlight, whenever there's cc on the other team they get a white duration ticker under their name - is that option available to players?
nope, still in testing on PBE because it's not up to Riot's standards for some reason, even though it's fine...
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On April 30 2013 02:50 NeoIllusions wrote:
From a region perspective, NA Mids don't have the understanding of what Twisted Fate is supposed to do. It seems like such a blunt statement to make but just look at how scarra played TF in the past two weeks and NyJacky in the past.
Regi, for all the flak he gets, his mid/late game TF is half decent. He needs to brush up on his mechanics (hello Red Card ganks, hello Gold Card on minions) and better usage of his first 1-3 Destinies.
Edit: ecco is a superb TF, probably the best NA TF I've seen. Not sure who else comes close.
I think if you look at the great EU mids they all have one thing in common, they know how to split push and do it constantly. That aspect of play is only really able to happen if your have some kind of map sense which is one of the important aspects of TF play.
They also extremely aggressive playmakers. Froggen for all his passivity still forces plays when he's on champs that can do it (Zed/TF etc.)
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United States37500 Posts
On April 30 2013 03:06 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 02:50 NeoIllusions wrote:
From a region perspective, NA Mids don't have the understanding of what Twisted Fate is supposed to do. It seems like such a blunt statement to make but just look at how scarra played TF in the past two weeks and NyJacky in the past.
Regi, for all the flak he gets, his mid/late game TF is half decent. He needs to brush up on his mechanics (hello Red Card ganks, hello Gold Card on minions) and better usage of his first 1-3 Destinies.
Edit: ecco is a superb TF, probably the best NA TF I've seen. Not sure who else comes close. I think if you look at the great EU mids they all have one thing in common, they know how to split push and do it constantly. That aspect of play is only really able to happen if your have some kind of map sense which is one of the important aspects of TF play. They also extremely aggressive playmakers. Froggen for all his passivity still forces plays when he's on champs that can do it (Zed/TF etc.)
Zed just mows down towers, it's hilar.
EU Mid Laners must think Zed is a godsend. Riot delivered.
(I still think Kha'Zix is best AD Mid but he's ban status)
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United States15536 Posts
On April 30 2013 03:15 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 03:06 Numy wrote:On April 30 2013 02:50 NeoIllusions wrote:
From a region perspective, NA Mids don't have the understanding of what Twisted Fate is supposed to do. It seems like such a blunt statement to make but just look at how scarra played TF in the past two weeks and NyJacky in the past.
Regi, for all the flak he gets, his mid/late game TF is half decent. He needs to brush up on his mechanics (hello Red Card ganks, hello Gold Card on minions) and better usage of his first 1-3 Destinies.
Edit: ecco is a superb TF, probably the best NA TF I've seen. Not sure who else comes close. I think if you look at the great EU mids they all have one thing in common, they know how to split push and do it constantly. That aspect of play is only really able to happen if your have some kind of map sense which is one of the important aspects of TF play. They also extremely aggressive playmakers. Froggen for all his passivity still forces plays when he's on champs that can do it (Zed/TF etc.) Zed just mows down towers, it's hilar. EU Mid Laners must think Zed is a godsend. Riot delivered. (I still think Kha'Zix is best AD Mid but he's ban status)
EU Finals spoilers: + Show Spoiler +When Zed is picked, that team wins. JUST SAYIN'
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Finland33997 Posts
BotRK I guess at least gives Zed that. His splitpushing without it is far weaker. Need that slight bit of attack speed.
The best towerkiller is probably Rengar but he doesn't waveclear nearly as well.
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EPT
