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Alright, after playing a shitton of jungle these last few days, I have come to the realization that many people (maybe even the majority of LOL players) have no idea how to support a simple gank from the jungle.
What do I mean by this? What is supporting a gank? Well my friends, supporting a gank is the actions the lane takes in order to assist their jungler in killing off their laning opponent(s). There are a myriad of complexities to this process based on situation and champions involved, but there are a few basic concepts that people seem to have a hard time understanding.
Here is a diagram of a lovely bot lane (pretend top tower is yours despite label):
Its pushed hard, the enemy has been crapping on Trist and Taric for the whole game, and you can bet they have been whining like little bitches for a gank. Now their dreams have been answered: friendly trundle has approached the bot lane completely undetected, and hes ready to gank! Now he is sitting in the bush waiting...."what on earth is this trundle waiting for?" wonder Trist and Taric. They conclude he must be a shitty jungler.
THE LESSON: When your lane is getting ganked, 99% of the time, you, the lane, need to make the first move. There is nothing more infuriating as a jungler than to show up in the above situation, and have Taric and Trist continue to sit there under the turret, so far back that they cannot assist with anything.
THE BEST WAY TO INITIATE A GANK IS WITH THE LANER(s), JUMPING INTO A BAD FIGHT.
Yes, thats right, you need to engage in a shitty fight that you will lose. Do something retarded, or at the very least dumb. If you are a top lane, just go up to the enemy and start hitting him. Trade damage in a way that the enemy KNOWS THEY WILL COME OUT ON TOP. This way, when the jungler leaps out of the bush, the enemy is already at probably half health and may have blown all of their skills. EASY KILLS.
Think of it this way: You are a Nasus going up against Renekton. You are winning the lane and he is pushed back under tower. You are in the middle of the lane.
Situation A: Trundle leaps out of the river bush and charges you.
Situation B: Renekton comes forward, hits a few CS and then starts attacking you.
What happens 90% of the time in these situations?
Result A: You immediately realize this is a 2v1, throw wither on trundle and run back to your tower. Fail gank.
Result B: You know you can take Renekton, so you attack back, trade some damage and then pop wither on Renekton to slow his DPS and allow you to get the kill. Suddenly Trundle appears mid-duel and pillars you, you are left with no chance to escape and die.
IF YOU CAN SURVIVE IT, ALWAYS TRY TO INITIATE A DAMAGE TRADE OR DUEL IF YOU HAVE A JUNGLER IN POSITION. THIS WILL RESULT IN OVER 9000% MORE SUCCESSFUL GANKS, ESPECIALLY IN SOLO QUEUE.
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this has the makings of a good guide
if it had a little more info and a little less rage :p
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Tell them teammates to get baited. Always works.
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this is going to be the subject of one of my videos O_o would you like to co-host that video sob3k?
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THANK GOODNESS! WHY PEOPLE DON'T GET THIS I DON'T KNOW. THEN THEY RAGE ABOUT MY BAD GANKS FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.
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The towers appear to be mislabled.
How can one follow instructions to ignore lables?
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time to show this to everyone i know :3
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Another thing worthy to point out, is how baiting like your scenario, can be done even when there's wards especially on a heavy pushed top with bad placement wards. Most people who plays blue always seem to only use 1 ward, so they got vision from river and tri-bush, this will sometimes allow you as the jungler, to actually pressure at least a flash.
Stay in the tri-brush, tell top to derp real hard and make the enemy focus more on hitting your top laner than looking at their mini-map.
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What if the jungler is someone like rammus/shaco who I see tend to powerball/deceive in and taunt/start attacking, making the first move? Are they doing that wrong or are they excepted because they are so mobile and lockdown so hard or do so much damage?
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Wait so the Nasus was winning vs Renekton? Everyone knows Nasus cannot escape Renekton.
But on a serious note this is nice and mostly common sense for better players
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Generally if the jungler lacks a good gap closer then it's up to the lane to make the first move. Even so, it is usually better for the lane to make the first move because a rammus coming into an engaged enemy is a lot better than rammus coming from behind. Same goes for shaco, just they can force ganks a lot better than most jungler. When they decieve in, it's expected that you move RIGHT THEN to go after a fight, and they will pop up at the start of an engagement for a nice easy kill. Heroes with strong ganks can manage that, heroes like trundle that would love to land a nice skill like pillar and without a gap closer would much rather have the lane start a fight.
The only problem with this guide is when your lane has been passive as hell, and suddenly if they move to fight something they know they cant win, it appears quite suspicious. For example I'm laning top, as poppy, harass a riven down to like 40% when I'm at 75%, and then she just starts rushing towards me. It's pretty clear to me that something is wrong. But in a lot of lanes where someone is slightly losing or is at decent enough health for it to be a somewhat reasonable idea to try to trade, the guide is right.
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On April 06 2012 16:52 Altar wrote:Wait so the Nasus was winning vs Renekton? Everyone knows Nasus cannot escape Renekton. But on a serious note this is nice and mostly common sense for better players No, seriously. How in blue fuck would Nasus ever beat Renekton?
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On April 06 2012 17:02 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 16:52 Altar wrote:Wait so the Nasus was winning vs Renekton? Everyone knows Nasus cannot escape Renekton. But on a serious note this is nice and mostly common sense for better players No, seriously. How in blue fuck would Nasus ever beat Renekton? Lol yeah, I get trashed like fk. Usually just try to farm for lategame.
Nice guide from the jungle perspective but it really depends on the situation. With a good gap closer and disables and/or the laners are low hp, the jungle should probably initiate.
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On April 06 2012 17:02 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 16:52 Altar wrote:Wait so the Nasus was winning vs Renekton? Everyone knows Nasus cannot escape Renekton. But on a serious note this is nice and mostly common sense for better players No, seriously. How in blue fuck would Nasus ever beat Renekton?
Blue. Answer own question gg!
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On April 06 2012 17:02 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 16:52 Altar wrote:Wait so the Nasus was winning vs Renekton? Everyone knows Nasus cannot escape Renekton. But on a serious note this is nice and mostly common sense for better players No, seriously. How in blue fuck would Nasus ever beat Renekton?
Armour! If nasus gets out of early game with some farm renekton is pretty screwed actually. Renekton isn't a stronger 1v1'er he just trades really annoyingly with his jump in and jump out stuff. Renekton can push faster but nasus just farms q all day.
Also this guide is a good example of why you can't gank when bottom lane is failing so hard they are like both 30%. They can't engage but if you engage they'll CC you get and get away, so no matter how much they whine you guys need to go back and heal first.!
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I guess I've been screwing up in this aspect then because I've always been afraid that it might be too obvious that the jungler is waiting to gank for me when I suddenly run up there to try to trade/initiate with them. Guess that mentality was wrong (or at least, most of the times not good).
Thanks for the info. Will put that into good use.
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most of the time if you are in that position you should NOT gank as the jungler. The botlane would loes too many creeps and the botlane is mostlikely too low. With not ganking I actually mean you should sometimes show presence on botlane so that their botlane backs out : you give room for your botlane to catch up in farm/life/levels.
It is not always good to gank and even if many junglers dont want to believe that they should not blindlessly gank and then flame their lane that they dont follow up.
Edit: usually the jungler should go first because it is way too obvious if the botlane starts randomly walking towarsd the enemy (of cause it depends but I would say 60% jungler 40% lane, the lane should start walking when the jungler starts moving ofc not that easy to time correctly)
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I agree with everything said, but at the same time, you can't always engage fights as a laner and expect the jungler to follow through in solo queue. There's simply not enough communication usually.
I've had many situations where I'd go in first as the laner, get killed, while the jungler sits in the brush going "noob y u go in i was gonna gank"
Of course, I can remember just as many situations as a jungler where I went in first, died 1v2, while the Trist and Taric sit under their tower picking their noses.
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If OP actually wants to flesh this out into a true "how to support jungle ganks" thread, I'd suggest touching on warding. I for one demand info from my lanes about where the lane is warded before I come and try to get them to time when wards go down. Nothing more sexy then just running through river 5 seconds after a ward expires.
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IMO communication seems really important to me. When there's 6 or more creeps at my turret I'm kind of unsure about ganking because I could lose a ton of farm for little reward. At the same time though I've been finding myself too far behind repeatedly to make the best kind of difference in a gank.
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One glaring issue with this mindset is when you're ganking mid lane.
In mid, there is very high burst. Also, generally, a mid lane match up is going to have a lot of harassment or be very passive. If one person has been harassing a lot, and continues to do so, the other player is likely to back off because he's taken a lot of punishment already, so the engagement won't result in any type of successful gank. If the lane has been passive, and all of a sudden one player is aggressive, it's a red flag for the other player to back off.
Furthermore, say I'm pushed to my tower and have been losing my lane. If I try to initiate a fight, there's a high chance I'll die before my jungler even reaches my enemy. This is extremely frustrating, and happens a lot when T_D jungles for me, because he has much the same mind set as you do. In mid, the jungler has to initiate (if I'm not playing someone with a very reliable hard cc). Mages are slow, and I'd rather just burn a flash mid and make my opponent more weary than trying to go balls out and risk my own death.
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As a laner it's your job to be in position to assist a gank or to send your jungler back to the jungle. The former will sometimes involve aggression or initiating a fight, but at the most basic level it means being in range to throw your damage/CC into the mix when the gank happens. A lot of laners have this weird idea that they can be 1000+ range away from their opponent(s) and somehow be useful during a gank. I still haven't figured out where they got that idea.
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On April 06 2012 22:31 jcarlsoniv wrote: One glaring issue with this mindset is when you're ganking mid lane.
In mid, there is very high burst. Also, generally, a mid lane match up is going to have a lot of harassment or be very passive. If one person has been harassing a lot, and continues to do so, the other player is likely to back off because he's taken a lot of punishment already, so the engagement won't result in any type of successful gank. If the lane has been passive, and all of a sudden one player is aggressive, it's a red flag for the other player to back off.
Furthermore, say I'm pushed to my tower and have been losing my lane. If I try to initiate a fight, there's a high chance I'll die before my jungler even reaches my enemy. This is extremely frustrating, and happens a lot when T_D jungles for me, because he has much the same mind set as you do. In mid, the jungler has to initiate (if I'm not playing someone with a very reliable hard cc). Mages are slow, and I'd rather just burn a flash mid and make my opponent more weary than trying to go balls out and risk my own death.
Right, mid can be completely different alot of the time. Many times if your try to start a fight mid you will die instantly or, more importantly be on full CD with nothing to hold them in place while the jungler comes in. So jungle usually does make first move, or move simultaneously with the laner on mid lane. For mid it is often a much more subtle bait where I often try to walk just a bit too far out to one side of the lane and "get myself caught" in a position where they come towards the brush to try and hit me.
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On April 06 2012 19:35 Apex wrote: I guess I've been screwing up in this aspect then because I've always been afraid that it might be too obvious that the jungler is waiting to gank for me when I suddenly run up there to try to trade/initiate with them. Guess that mentality was wrong (or at least, most of the times not good).
Thanks for the info. Will put that into good use.
The better players you play with, the more subtle your retard move can be and will need to be. In solo que if i'm dominating an lane and they suddenly make a move towards me, as long as i'm not OBSCENELY ahead I often will just think they are a terrible player and really think they can fight, because I see players do this sort of dumb shit all the time with no jungler and die. Moves like that are common and thats why you see people going 0-6 in lane in soloque.
If I am playing better people I wont just jump on them, as that would be suspicious if they know I dont suck. But if they are better at the game they are also much better at seeing a much more subtle bait. For example instead of just jumping on them I can just go out a tiny bit too far to nab a creep, which a good player will instantly see as an opportunity to engage without thinking the mistake is so obvious that there must be rammus on the way in. In mid lane I can blow a short CD on the creep wave, which can cause a good mid to move aggressively towards me. If you tried this on a bad player they wont even see the momentary weakness and the bait will be noneffective, but on the flipside they wont infer the jungler's presence on some really brash attack either.
Basically as long as you wont die immediately, you just try to use the most subtle bait you can that will create an engage from them.
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On April 07 2012 00:19 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 22:31 jcarlsoniv wrote: One glaring issue with this mindset is when you're ganking mid lane.
In mid, there is very high burst. Also, generally, a mid lane match up is going to have a lot of harassment or be very passive. If one person has been harassing a lot, and continues to do so, the other player is likely to back off because he's taken a lot of punishment already, so the engagement won't result in any type of successful gank. If the lane has been passive, and all of a sudden one player is aggressive, it's a red flag for the other player to back off.
Furthermore, say I'm pushed to my tower and have been losing my lane. If I try to initiate a fight, there's a high chance I'll die before my jungler even reaches my enemy. This is extremely frustrating, and happens a lot when T_D jungles for me, because he has much the same mind set as you do. In mid, the jungler has to initiate (if I'm not playing someone with a very reliable hard cc). Mages are slow, and I'd rather just burn a flash mid and make my opponent more weary than trying to go balls out and risk my own death. Right, mid can be completely different alot of the time. Many times if your try to start a fight mid you will die instantly or, more importantly be on full CD with nothing to hold them in place while the jungler comes in. So jungle usually does make first move, or move simultaneously with the laner on mid lane. For mid it is often a much more subtle bait where I often try to walk just a bit too far out to one side of the lane and "get myself caught" in a position where they come towards the brush to try and hit me.
It feels like you have to play your opponent into positioning where you want him to midlane, depending on his playstyle. Some champs/players like to stay away from you, so in order to position him correctly you position yourself away from your jungler baiting the opposing mid player towards your jungler. Against champs/players that are agressive you go to your junglers side and let the other mid push you back, drawing him into jungler range.
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On April 07 2012 00:28 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 19:35 Apex wrote: I guess I've been screwing up in this aspect then because I've always been afraid that it might be too obvious that the jungler is waiting to gank for me when I suddenly run up there to try to trade/initiate with them. Guess that mentality was wrong (or at least, most of the times not good).
Thanks for the info. Will put that into good use. The better players you play with, the more subtle your retard move can be and will need to be. In solo que if i'm dominating an lane and they suddenly make a move towards me, as long as i'm not OBSCENELY ahead I often will just think they are a terrible player and really think they can fight, because I see players do this sort of dumb shit all the time with no jungler and die. Moves like that are common and thats why you see people going 0-6 in lane in soloque. If I am playing better people I wont just jump on them, as that would be suspicious if they know I dont suck. But if they are better at the game they are also much better at seeing a much more subtle bait. For example instead of just jumping on them I can just go out a tiny bit too far to nab a creep, which a good player will instantly see as an opportunity to engage without thinking the mistake is so obvious that there must be rammus on the way in. In mid lane I can blow a short CD on the creep wave, which can cause a good mid to move aggressively towards me. If you tried this on a bad player they wont even see the momentary weakness and the bait will be noneffective, but on the flipside they wont infer the jungler's presence on some really brash attack either. Basically as long as you wont die immediately, you just try to use the most subtle bait you can that will create an engage from them.
Usually when I play support bot lane I will be poking/aggressive from the start. Even if the trades are uneven if you can deny some cs for the other side and generally it's good, so when jungler does gank it's normal maybe they think you overextend a little - if it's a kill lane they are looking for you to step out of line for a second so they can jump on you. Just give them that oppurtunity!
Bot land is always the hardest to gank - it's warded the most, if you go in the wrong time you are liable to die 2v1, heal summoners, often the team doesn't focus fire a single target, some support have 0 damage output, the lane matchup heavily depends on items and there two heroes to cc/disable you. If you really want to gank bot you should get used to brush ganking, it's so powerful, even if you have to wait another 30 seconds or so, having them facecheck into you makes killing them so much easier.
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i have one more thing to add: the goal of ganking isn't necessarily to get a kill. most junglers who don't usually play top don't realize this, but after a gank which didn't result a kill AND if the lane's pushing to your side, the jungler can just stay for a few sec and zone the opponent (while not taking your solo top's exp), making him lose about a wave's worth of cs. i can't stress enough how it's not a waste of time for the jungler to stay there as top can snowball harder than any other lane
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On April 07 2012 01:27 billy5000 wrote: i have one more thing to add: the goal of ganking isn't necessarily to get a kill. most junglers who don't usually play top don't realize this, but after a gank which didn't result a kill AND if the lane's pushing to your side, the jungler can just stay for a few sec and zone the opponent (while not taking your solo top's exp), making him lose about a wave's worth of cs. i can't stress enough how it's not a waste of time for the jungler to stay there as top can snowball harder than any other lane
T_D's gonna want to have a word with you.
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Can someone touch upon creep wave size a bit? I hate ganking into a wall of enemy creep, especially as Udyr/a champ who gets blocked easily. At the same time, asking/waiting for the duo lane to thin the wave usually ends up badly. Should I just wait for tower to clear out the wave? I don't want the bot lane to lose out on the cs.
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Your question is confusing. If the creep wave is pushed up to your tower, how are you running into them when you gank? I can't think of any normal gank path where that would happen.
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In either case, it's usually not a good idea to go for an all-out gank when there's a billion creeps pushed up to your tower, but you could apply some pressure because they will lose out on a few cs if you play it right as their giant minion wave will kill your minions really fast, which makes them lose a lot if they are forced to back off.
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Sorry, I should clarify(really new to jungling, so that probably explains a lot of my issues). When my bot lane's losing, the wave's usually getting slowly pushed to our tower. Bot lane's getting chased out of cs/exp. Should I be telling bot to just try their best to farm under tower, (usually the enemy bot's not stupid and backs, so there's not much opportunity to gank once the wave reaches tower), and that I'll be back after the wave's reset, or should I encourage them to thin out the creep wave and gank sooner? I'm probably being far too greedy about it, but I dislike the fact that the lane's probably pushing slow enough that bot'll lose out on most of yet another wave before the enemy creeps reach our tower. I probably should just be telling bot to suck it up?
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"BAIT HIM SHEEP, TANK A TOWER HIT OR SOMETHING"
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when I recognize that someone is really good before bluepill and I'am slightly behind in lane then i randomly start whacking at him for no good reason. ppl are not robots. some of them will smell it and attack back, some of them will run because they think a gank is incomming and some will just attack you because they don't even consider that a jungler is comming. Some will consider that a jungler can come but they will trade nontheless because they assume they will get away with it (summoners for example) and they don't want to give up their psychological advantage. some will just run because they dont expect it and are surprised.
so many possible scenarios. there isnt really a receipt for mindgames. and what you are proposing is a mindgame receipt. there are alot of players who will not trade with you if you are overly aggressive from their perspective. one of the reasons many players dont like bottom lane is because it's so hard to do the right stuff. some people are just defensive after they get hurt a bit and will never come back in lane through plays. some are extremely confident and do very close engagements after their opponent missed a skillshot for example just so they can come back.
as a jungler or duo laner you either have to do super safe ganks +massive farming or you are mind reader and check out the dynamic of every lane at once, but you are never gonna be successful with mindgame receipts.
also you should never think of what other players should do better. it never helps you. in a situation where the others would not trade, you probably dont want to commit but just show yourself and deal a bit of damage maybe or you can walk into the lane, push it and grant your teammates a good timing to recall. another possiblity would be counterjungling or counterganking because in this situation you know that the bottom lane is not going to get ganked (tower proximity).
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This happens to me constantly. Teammates go B to tower when I'm waiting in brush for gank and then whine that I never gank their lane. Or they don't dive when I initiate under tower for an easy kill and I just die to tower hits (they just hit CS or B while I dive)
Just recently I had some issues as Trundle and missed 2 easy ganks on a Katarina mid because the Fiddle wouldn't fear her. I asked him to initiate with fear and he just B'd to tower and last hit minions and kept pinging her. I sighed and initiated and he hits a few CS, drains her, and she gets away easy and I almost die from 2 tower hits.
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Oh and for the love of god - if you are laning, don't use your skillshot cc to engage. There's nothing worse than a Mundo (with exhaust) ganking a lane with Ahri and see her whiff her charm. I mean come on.
That being said - and people have touched on this already - who engages depends on the lane position, champs, and health/cds. But if possible the laner should strive to make the other guy try to step up and make the gank easier before it happens.
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Haha, I literally did this with support Janna in bot lane at least 4 times yesterday. Take some damage, act like your panicking, BAM Nocturne flies in and double kill. Works like a charm.
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Dear lord... this is so true...
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There is some truth to this, but there are several other factors that determine who should engage first. It depends a lot on the angle you enter the lane from, if/what kinds of cc you have, if/what kinds of cc your laner has, the positioning of both champions in lane, their health and mana, etc... I don't think it's possible to say that the laner is the one who should engage first even in most cases, because it is so extremely situational. Oftentimes it's preferable if both of you engage at the same time, but that's not always possible.
What I have found is that waiting around in the brush is rarely worth it. Like, at all. Except for some extreme cases (over 9000 creeps under your turret or sumthin). If you have to wait in the brush it is generally because your timing was bad. What I tend to do is look at the lanes well ahead of time, and if I notice one lane is overextended or will get overextended soon I estimate the timing when it will be effective to gank it, and then decide upon my path there based on that estimation (might take a creep camp on the way, might gank another lane first then immediately go to the lane, might take a slight detour and ward in the process, etc...) When approaching I watch the movement of the enemy hero, because it is often very obvious whether he sees my approach or not. If he doesn't react I ping him a couple of seconds in advance and then just run straight in. This is often enough time for the laner to position himself or initiate a fight, depending on what he judges appropriate.
Though, to chime in on the rage, IT'S NEVER THE JUNGLERS FAULT YOU LOSE YOUR LANE. IT'S BECAUSE YOU OVEREXTEND LIKE A RETARD YOU GET GANKED, AND BECAUSE YOUR ENEMY IS CAREFUL GANKING HIM WOULD BE A WASTE OF TIME. MAN UP, PLAY SMART AND DON'T BLAME THE JUNGLER WHEN YOU SUCK BALLS AND GET STOMPED!
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This is only really true if the laner has been aggressive and has been trading quite a bit. If he's been playing passive and suddenly goes balls-out aggressive, almost everyone will instinctively run away because it's so obvious a gank is coming. Another dead giveaway is if you suddenly see the support running forward up to you which he hasn't been doing so far.
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I think that whether or not the jungler or the laners should initiate completely depends on the match up, the jungler, where the enemy jungler is (a major unmentioned point) etc etc. Playing mid more often than not I find it retardedly obvious when the mid (if everything is going to plan) who I'm out damaging/beating all of a sudden wants to pointlessly trade... Initiation is match up dependant
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initiating losing battles is a dead give away to better players, though, right?
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On April 09 2012 07:40 holdthephone wrote: initiating losing battles is a dead give away to better players, though, right? People are greedy at all elos. You'd be surprised.
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On April 09 2012 07:40 holdthephone wrote: initiating losing battles is a dead give away to better players, though, right?
At worst they run away, which they would already do the second your jungle shows. Always worth trying.
Plus if you realize you are laning against a total pussy you can then abuse the crap out that and make them miss CS until they stop being a pussy. Then you gank them.
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Its a fair point. I just wanted to add that most of the time its worth the risk of the laner dying if a kill is guaranteed. Unless the killer is someone highly gold reliant and has a overtly powerful endgame.
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