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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. - Neo, 9:49 KST, Nov 9th |
On November 02 2011 07:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 07:14 Juicyfruit wrote:
All of what's happening now, should have happened BEFORE the rematch. Regi addressed this in one of his videos--essentially, WCG basically gave CDE an ultimatum to the effect of "play the match in 48 hours or get DQed. There was no time for them to discuss or raise the issue at that stage.
I think I am just a little biased because for one thing, if I was put in the same scenario I would have been sure to raise my voice of this matter even if I only had 48 hours. If you break the situation down and present all the facts correctly, every single reasonable person would side with CDE every time.
But another issue is that the whole mess is so poorly documented that it's hard for them to make a solid case for themselves. Fact of the matter is that they didn't really prepare themselves to make a good case. Impromptu videos by reginald aren't really the clearest way you can get your message out.
The corruption here wasn't ambiguous. To have him go on Slasher and not even being able to fucking SHOW that the rules have obviously been tampered with, and no documentation of how previous WCGs were played out is just irritating.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 02 2011 07:51 shavi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 07:48 NoobieOne wrote:On November 02 2011 07:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 02 2011 07:15 NoobieOne wrote:On November 02 2011 07:10 red_b wrote:
on the bright side Regi played one thing perfect. (paraphrasing inbound)
Odee asked him what he would do in that situation.
Regi responds : can't answer because that's a hypothetical
Odee presses: I bet you would play. you wouldn't give your spot up.
Regi : I never would have acted in a way that would have led to this situation.
exactly right way to do that.
but yeah Regi should have spent the whole time talking about WCG changing the rules after the fact. just hammer that over and over again and ignore Odee. that's what I would have done. Obviously Regi doesn't know how to debate as well as some people on team liquid. In High School and start of college I won multiple awards for debate competitions and I know a lot of things I would have said differently but I doubt Regi ever took classes on debate or knew how to prepare for the topics he should have known were coming (would you have done the same? and the personal attacks issue). I think he did pretty well considering he was going up against a veteran such as Odee. On November 02 2011 07:14 Craton wrote:
Just think, had Dignitas done the right thing and forfeited, this would've all been avoided.
I doubt there's any legal recourse that CDE could take against WCG, even if it would be deserved. Are you kidding me? Would you imagine if lets say in a MLG you had a player like Incontrol who is outspoken against the extended series rule being up 2-0 against a player like Bomber who is a lot better than he is (don't ask how he managed to get there) Do you think he would have forfeited the first 2 games to make it an even series just because he doesn't like the ruling? I personally believe that a player would take whatever advantage they can get against a player/team that they feel can give a challenge to them. That guy who evened up his series versus Whitera in the losers bracket after Whitera got DQed for being late even though the time of his game was told to him wrong got a pretty good deal by evening up the series. Granted, that's far out of the prize money so all you can really earn is brownie points, but still ^_^ Yes that is one case, but can you really see it happening in an important match between 2 people who really have a chance at prize money. Both Dignitas and CDE are composed of players who are near the best in the game and whoever wins USA qualifiers has a very good chance at winning the whole thing (Compitition from China and Canada are really the only ones i can think of unless there are some star teams not appearing yet). Also that person was praised because that was such a great thing to do and it was unheard of. I don't put the fault on Dignitas for not throwing/ff the match, CLG Canada wouldn't have done it and neither would CDE. The problem I have with Dignitas is that they went to the WCG admins in the first place after accepting defeat and wishing CDE well in Korea.
The problem I have with how they handled it was this statement in Voyboy's original post:
Personally, I believe that the admin was simply mistaken and that the finals are finished, and I have sent him a follow up email to please read the rules and make sure what he is telling us is correct. We are waiting on a reply but we are confident that CDE will indeed be going to Korea to represent the United States.
We wish them the best of luck and to have fun in their endeavors. I apologize for the confusion.
You make a well-mannered post wishing them luck in Korea...and then when the opportunity comes to take it from them, you jump on it.
If you're going to be an asshole, that's fine, I have no problem with that. People take opportunities they're given. But don't be two-faced about it and pretend you're not.
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On November 02 2011 07:54 Juicyfruit wrote:
The corruption here wasn't ambiguous. To have him go on Slasher and not even being able to fucking SHOW that the rules have obviously been tampered with, and no documentation of how previous WCGs were played out is just irritating.
Community could've whipped that up for him in a matter of minutes, too.
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On November 02 2011 07:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 07:51 shavi wrote:On November 02 2011 07:48 NoobieOne wrote:On November 02 2011 07:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On November 02 2011 07:15 NoobieOne wrote:On November 02 2011 07:10 red_b wrote:
on the bright side Regi played one thing perfect. (paraphrasing inbound)
Odee asked him what he would do in that situation.
Regi responds : can't answer because that's a hypothetical
Odee presses: I bet you would play. you wouldn't give your spot up.
Regi : I never would have acted in a way that would have led to this situation.
exactly right way to do that.
but yeah Regi should have spent the whole time talking about WCG changing the rules after the fact. just hammer that over and over again and ignore Odee. that's what I would have done. Obviously Regi doesn't know how to debate as well as some people on team liquid. In High School and start of college I won multiple awards for debate competitions and I know a lot of things I would have said differently but I doubt Regi ever took classes on debate or knew how to prepare for the topics he should have known were coming (would you have done the same? and the personal attacks issue). I think he did pretty well considering he was going up against a veteran such as Odee. On November 02 2011 07:14 Craton wrote:
Just think, had Dignitas done the right thing and forfeited, this would've all been avoided.
I doubt there's any legal recourse that CDE could take against WCG, even if it would be deserved. Are you kidding me? Would you imagine if lets say in a MLG you had a player like Incontrol who is outspoken against the extended series rule being up 2-0 against a player like Bomber who is a lot better than he is (don't ask how he managed to get there) Do you think he would have forfeited the first 2 games to make it an even series just because he doesn't like the ruling? I personally believe that a player would take whatever advantage they can get against a player/team that they feel can give a challenge to them. That guy who evened up his series versus Whitera in the losers bracket after Whitera got DQed for being late even though the time of his game was told to him wrong got a pretty good deal by evening up the series. Granted, that's far out of the prize money so all you can really earn is brownie points, but still ^_^ Yes that is one case, but can you really see it happening in an important match between 2 people who really have a chance at prize money. Both Dignitas and CDE are composed of players who are near the best in the game and whoever wins USA qualifiers has a very good chance at winning the whole thing (Compitition from China and Canada are really the only ones i can think of unless there are some star teams not appearing yet). Also that person was praised because that was such a great thing to do and it was unheard of. I don't put the fault on Dignitas for not throwing/ff the match, CLG Canada wouldn't have done it and neither would CDE. The problem I have with Dignitas is that they went to the WCG admins in the first place after accepting defeat and wishing CDE well in Korea. The problem I have with how they handled it was this statement in Voyboy's original post: Show nested quote +
Personally, I believe that the admin was simply mistaken and that the finals are finished, and I have sent him a follow up email to please read the rules and make sure what he is telling us is correct. We are waiting on a reply but we are confident that CDE will indeed be going to Korea to represent the United States.
We wish them the best of luck and to have fun in their endeavors. I apologize for the confusion.
You make a well-mannered post wishing them luck in Korea...and then when the opportunity comes to take it from them, you jump on it. If you're going to be an asshole, that's fine, I have no problem with that. People take opportunities they're given. But don't be two-faced about it and pretend you're not.
Oh I think I saw this post from Voyboy earlier and totally forgot. Yea after a post like that and if a rematch is ordered, I would nearly expected them to FF it. You already admit defeat, wish the winners good luck..and then get back on it for a rematch? Fuck manners.
So sure Dignitas would bring in Odee saying Voyboy is just a 16 year old kid and tournament admins tell us this is what we have to do blaablaa...well then voyboy shouldn't have posted that at all. Or Odee the great esportsman should have made it clear what is okay to post and not as a team representative to his players huehue.
Overall this whole thing just a huge disgusting mess. The rules that were in place when games were played (that were visible to the teams) should have been enforced. Nothing's gonna change anymore, I'll just be cheering for the chinese in the finals \o/
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Except if the call is actually wrong (and it was changed so clearly it was) then CDE haven't won that spot to Korea yet and Dignitas has fair game to contest it in the first place. They did and took that series 2-1 and are going to Korea. Just because the outcome isn't what you wanted it to be doesn't put Dignitas at fault. WCG changed the rules and Dignitas followed them.
WCG doesn't know their rules is the issue here. If Dignitas made them discover that the rules changed then I'd like some concrete evidence or you're just spouting conspiracy theories.
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On November 02 2011 08:02 daemir wrote:
So sure Dignitas would bring in Odee saying Voyboy is just a 16 year old kid and tournament admins tell us this is what we have to do blaablaa...well then voyboy shouldn't have posted that at all. Or Odee the great esportsman should have made it clear what is okay to post and not as a team representative to his players huehue.
That is something to think to. They are pro team from the big pro organisation that is Dignitas, whereas TSM and CLG are teams who got pro by becoming good and winning some tourneys.
So Dignitas' managers only want they team to win and have exposure for sponsors, they don't much care about a part of the community who's gonna spam Riot's forums (well their sponsors may have less success if everyone hates the team but it's kinda the mind they have imo).
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On November 02 2011 08:08 -Zoda- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 08:02 daemir wrote:
So sure Dignitas would bring in Odee saying Voyboy is just a 16 year old kid and tournament admins tell us this is what we have to do blaablaa...well then voyboy shouldn't have posted that at all. Or Odee the great esportsman should have made it clear what is okay to post and not as a team representative to his players huehue. That is something to think to. They are pro team from the big pro organisation that is Dignitas, whereas TSM and CLG are teams who got pro by becoming good and winning some tourneys. So Dignitas' managers only want they team to win and have exposure for sponsors, they don't much care about a part of the community who's gonna spam Riot's forums (well their sponsors may have less success if everyone hates the team but it's kinda the mind they have imo).
eSports is absolutely not all about winning, and I'm pretty sure Dignitas knows it. Who cares if you're winning everything if no one buys any of your sponsor's gear and always talks down about your team? That's where the money comes in for the pro teams (not the players). Sponsors. Sure, Dignitas gets a trip to Korea, but I think in the long run(even if they win) the ROI for Dignitas would have been much more significant had they just accepted their loss to CDE and nurtured their huge popularity.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 02 2011 08:08 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Except if the call is actually wrong (and it was changed so clearly it was) then CDE haven't won that spot to Korea yet and Dignitas has fair game to contest it in the first place. They did and took that series 2-1 and are going to Korea. Just because the outcome isn't what you wanted it to be doesn't put Dignitas at fault. WCG changed the rules and Dignitas followed them.
Like I said, I'm not faulting Dignitas for questioning the decision. I am faulting them for their attitude the whole way through (including their poor attitude about the situation when CDE questioned Jatt's eligibility to play for Dignitas due to him playing in the Canadian qualifier).
If you really want to question the rules, then don't wish your opponents luck in their trip to Korea. Because then you look like a huge two-faced ass when you're the ones going to Korea instead.
"We are confident that CDE will indeed be going to Korea to represent the United States"...not so much now.
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On November 02 2011 08:16 TheYango wrote:
If you really want to question the rules, then don't wish your opponents luck in their trip to Korea. Because then you look like a huge two-faced ass when you're the ones going to Korea instead.
I don't think they questionned the rules, Marcou just saw the match and helped them. :trollface:
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On November 02 2011 08:15 shavi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 08:08 -Zoda- wrote:On November 02 2011 08:02 daemir wrote:
So sure Dignitas would bring in Odee saying Voyboy is just a 16 year old kid and tournament admins tell us this is what we have to do blaablaa...well then voyboy shouldn't have posted that at all. Or Odee the great esportsman should have made it clear what is okay to post and not as a team representative to his players huehue. That is something to think to. They are pro team from the big pro organisation that is Dignitas, whereas TSM and CLG are teams who got pro by becoming good and winning some tourneys. So Dignitas' managers only want they team to win and have exposure for sponsors, they don't much care about a part of the community who's gonna spam Riot's forums (well their sponsors may have less success if everyone hates the team but it's kinda the mind they have imo). eSports is absolutely not all about winning, and I'm pretty sure Dignitas knows it. Who cares if you're winning everything if no one buys any of your sponsor's gear and always talks down about your team? That's where the money comes in for the pro teams (not the players). Sponsors. Sure, Dignitas gets a trip to Korea, but I think in the long run(even if they win) the ROI for Dignitas would have been much more significant had they just accepted their loss to CDE and nurtured their huge popularity.
Except I bet that Dignitas's website has gotten more unique views in the last few days from LoL then the time from when they picked up the team until the match. Even though the publicity is bad, it is still publicity and the sponsor's names are still getting out.
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Yea I read they are now in the works of editing comments on their site from "cheating dignitas" into "wp gg" and deleting others.
Good unique views, the marketing genious at work! Hope there's big fat banner of the hardware sponsors on everyone's face who visit the site >_>
Blitz, for the rule changing, the dual citizenship rules were cited earlier and if they were actually followed as written, then Jatt would have been DQed from USA qualis as he had already participated in Canada qualis.
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Odee's talk about being an old-school eSports guy and LoL needing to stick to the traditional double-elimination, multiple sets grand final was dumb.
I doubt you are going to see many tournaments use the traditional double-elim format for grand finals in LoL. It's just too many games and takes too long.
I'm surprised no one brought up the fact that the DOTA 2 invitational was double-elim, yet used a single set for the grand finals, with the winner's starting with a 1 game advantage.
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Well, you picked Vlad, so you are naturally your team's worst enemy!
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im playing normals. my team is my teams worst enemy..
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That's a hilarious picture though :p were you able to chat with either team in the lobby?
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On November 02 2011 08:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 08:08 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Except if the call is actually wrong (and it was changed so clearly it was) then CDE haven't won that spot to Korea yet and Dignitas has fair game to contest it in the first place. They did and took that series 2-1 and are going to Korea. Just because the outcome isn't what you wanted it to be doesn't put Dignitas at fault. WCG changed the rules and Dignitas followed them.
Like I said, I'm not faulting Dignitas for questioning the decision. I am faulting them for their attitude the whole way through (including their poor attitude about the situation when CDE questioned Jatt's eligibility to play for Dignitas due to him playing in the Canadian qualifier). If you really want to question the rules, then don't wish your opponents luck in their trip to Korea. Because then you look like a huge two-faced ass when you're the ones going to Korea instead. "We are confident that CDE will indeed be going to Korea to represent the United States"...not so much now.
They were confident at the time. However, WCG changed the rules they followed them and now they're going to Korea. What are they supposed to do: give CDE their spot even though they won the right to go to Korea because they said it before? I don't think that's there's a good decision to make here. You're picking the lesser of evils and going to Korea is that evil. Sucks to be CDE.
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On November 02 2011 08:33 Kenpachi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +wtf happened to my queue screen o_o
great break from all the drama.
Regardless of the reason this happened, it will make a great April Fools joke if everyone qued in the right side for the day.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 02 2011 08:39 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
They were confident at the time. However, WCG changed the rules they followed them and now they're going to Korea. What are they supposed to do: give CDE their spot even though they won the right to go to Korea because they said it before? I don't think that's there's a good decision to make here. You're picking the lesser of evils and going to Korea is that evil. Sucks to be CDE.
Saying "we are confident CDE is going to Korea" implies exactly that.
If you're not going to stick the the principle of it when the situation arises, then don't fucking play Mr. Nice Guy. You act all good mannered, but don't stick to it when it actually means you've got something to lose? I have less respect for someone like that than someone who is consistently selfish.
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This is my biggest beef with Dignitas' behaviour at this issue, you play the nice guy card, then you pull it back. Not even a hint of fair play. And Odee's performance on air was like.....u srs?
Massively biggest fault is ofc on the admins making really dumb decisions.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aeoXY.jpg)
