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most Kogs just do BF Item + PD Stack -> get red buff and blow everyone up.
bloodrazor:
30 AD: 1245 gold
25 Armor: 417 gold
40% AS: 1050 gold
2712 gold. You pay 1088 gold for 4% HP in magic damage.
compare this to
wit's end:
40% AS: 1050 gold
30 MR: 500 gold
1550. You pay 450 gold for 42 magic damage (also there's the extra MR, but let's ignore that for the time being).
For these to even out in gold efficiency, your target needs 2539 HP. Even ignoring the extra MRes. And you have to wait a hell of a lot longer to get bloodrazor. Just doesn't make sense to get bloodrazor tbh.
On October 05 2011 05:28 Sandster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 05:23 Requizen wrote:On October 05 2011 05:21 Mogwai wrote:
bloodrazor is sadly a very shitty item. I thought he stacked it on his Bio-arcane for lolnomnomhealth%? Someone on TL did a writeup on this and I'll just summarize: Bloodrazor (even without magic pen, I believe) is the highest single dps item to buy for the gold. However, IE/PD/BT/LW exponentially scale off each other. So if you have a comp that you NEED to buy defense, you can buy Bloodrazor + Wit's End (maybe) + defensive items to still have respective damage, but otherwise you go IE/PD route to have higher overall damage.
This was an old old discussion. Triforce is the new highest single dps item to buy for the gold.
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On October 05 2011 05:30 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 05:20 Requizen wrote:On October 05 2011 05:10 overt wrote:On October 05 2011 04:31 r.Evo wrote:On October 05 2011 03:51 Juicyfruit wrote:
Btw, I'd like to discuss two different ranged AD builds that I wish to compare. There's been a high prevalence of bloodthister core builds for a lot of AD carries where previously i.edge was rarely disputed, so I wish to compare them - the currently popular BT + PD combo, and the I.edge with a zeal and a vamp scepter to compliment the stats.
Option 1: PD + BT (takes up 2 item slots)
5845g
100AD
25% lifesteal
25% crit
55% attack speed
15% movespeed
Option 2: I.edge + Zeal + Vamp Scepter (takes up 3 item slots - not good at all if you buy more than 1 dblade)
5475g
80AD
12% lifesteal
35% critical strike
20% attack speed
8% movespeed
+ I.edge passive
Since LW and QSS has to be tossed in there generally, let's just assume those two options are your damage core items and that you won't be getting to i.edge if you build BT and vice versa...
Which one looks to be the better core? Option 1 seems to be very fotm right now but is it really any better than option 2? What if green elixir was factored in? What if you have dedicated? What if you have a nunu/nidalee on your team?
I'm only saying this because I've been seeing a lot of people auto-building bloodthisters, and I was wondering if that might be a common mistake or if it's really that cookie cutter. I think I'm quoting Locodoco here who put the question of "Which BF item on which carry?" into a very, very simple statement. -You want BT on champs which abilities have AD scaling and which have a short attack range ("coincidently" they're the same) -You want IE on all other autoattackers, except those who like BC more. -BC is awesome on Corki (BC+e = real) and Vayne (as+dmg, yes plz) That basicly means: BT: MF, Ezreal, Urgot (Vayne) IE: Trist, Ashe, Cait, Twitch BC: Corki (Vayne) To quote loco even more, "if you can get an early BT, do it." I believe he said if you can buy BT outright at 14 mins you always should. I agree with the list that Evo put up too although I'd add in Kog'Maw and put him under IE as well. Lots of times if I'm getting fed early I go BT. If I'm losing or it's just a normal old game I go for IE. But then again I play a lot more Ashe/Trist/Kog/Cait than the other ADs and I think that IE is just straight better on them. When I play MF I usually go BT cause of her higher risk and dat ult. I get Trinity on Ez/Corki before a BF item and then build my BF item depending on the other team. See I feel the opposite. IE is more damage, BT is more survivability. Why would you need BT if you're ahead? If you're not threatened and you're fed, go for IE for teh big boomz. If I feel behind, I almost need BT so I can fight longer thanks to the lifesteal. My experience, anyway. I'd feel Kog would go for Bloodrazor before a BF item, but eh, I've never played him, so what do I know? BT if you're ahead because it almost guarantees you can get your stacks up quickly. That 100 AD is really strong and the lifesteal lets you play more risky to accomplish objectives quicker. It also means you can easily 1v1 the enemy AD who's already behind. Maybe even 1v2 their support depending on how far ahead you are. IE is good if you're down or in all other situations because your team desperately needs you to do damage and no item offers more damage for an AD carry than IE. If you're ahead early game and you want to go for early IE that's still good too but BT allows you to dominate even harder if you're already ahead. Madreds is meh. You're the AD carry, you're suppose to be doing lots of physical damage. You're suppose to build for late game. IE > Madreds for late game damage and for physical damage. Madreds isn't awful but I think it's very overrated on Koggles. I dunno, I'm just not a big fan of doing primarily magic damage when I play AD carries. Also, Kog's W is a free Bloodrazor so building Madreds on him is like building Warmogs on Cho'gath imo.
So it's more when you're behind you need to kill faster to compensate? I dunno, I still feel that if I'm ahead, I don't really need the lifesteal from BT, as I should be ahead enough to just steamroll. I'll try it out in some games though.
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Kog does not have any more synergy with BR it than any other ranged carry. what makes BR do so much better when kog gets it? the pitiful MR strip?
BR is for tanky autoattack things that only want to buy one damage item (Warwick for example) even then, its such an expensive item that you usually have to get wit's so you can actually tank up.
how about wriggle's > BFsword > AS item. doesn't sacrifice all that much damage for way more farm. and you get wards.
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On October 05 2011 05:35 Phrost wrote:
I played karthus for the first time in years (probably not an exaggeration) and is it just me or is his auto attack animation horrendous? It feels so much clunkier and harder to animation cancel than annie, malzahar, brand, or morgana.
Yes, it's horrendous, so bad that a laywaste probably detonates faster than your autoattack animation finishes.
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The only advantage provided by BR at this point is the huge spike in Baron threat, and no one solos Baron until really late at this point anyways.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
you should never really be in range to auto attack anything anyway as karthus, most of his laning is spent trolling in the back with lay waste since you cant get close at all until you establish lane control with some well placed lay wastes or a gank
so i don't really think he even needs an AA -- lay waste is it lol
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Is it just me or does Riven seem hella powerful on Dominion... good ad ratios on AOE attacks, yes please!
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On October 05 2011 05:05 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 04:58 Sabin010 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 05 2011 04:31 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 03:51 Juicyfruit wrote:
Btw, I'd like to discuss two different ranged AD builds that I wish to compare. There's been a high prevalence of bloodthister core builds for a lot of AD carries where previously i.edge was rarely disputed, so I wish to compare them - the currently popular BT + PD combo, and the I.edge with a zeal and a vamp scepter to compliment the stats.
Option 1: PD + BT (takes up 2 item slots)
5845g
100AD
25% lifesteal
25% crit
55% attack speed
15% movespeed
Option 2: I.edge + Zeal + Vamp Scepter (takes up 3 item slots - not good at all if you buy more than 1 dblade)
5475g
80AD
12% lifesteal
35% critical strike
20% attack speed
8% movespeed
+ I.edge passive
Since LW and QSS has to be tossed in there generally, let's just assume those two options are your damage core items and that you won't be getting to i.edge if you build BT and vice versa...
Which one looks to be the better core? Option 1 seems to be very fotm right now but is it really any better than option 2? What if green elixir was factored in? What if you have dedicated? What if you have a nunu/nidalee on your team?
I'm only saying this because I've been seeing a lot of people auto-building bloodthisters, and I was wondering if that might be a common mistake or if it's really that cookie cutter. I think I'm quoting Locodoco here who put the question of "Which BF item on which carry?" into a very, very simple statement. -You want BT on champs which abilities have AD scaling and which have a short attack range ("coincidently" they're the same) -You want IE on all other autoattackers, except those who like BC more. -BC is awesome on Corki (BC+e = real) and Vayne (as+dmg, yes plz) That basicly means: BT: MF, Ezreal, Urgot (Vayne) IE: Trist, Ashe, Cait, Twitch BC: Corki (Vayne) But Urgot is going to want to get manamune for infinite q's and brutalizer for 3 q's off of hitting an e before going for a bit money item like BT. After that I usually get Triforce as it has movement speed slows and the sheen proc. I used to run Triforce Urgot before they changed his E to an AD ratio. Now I would argue unless you're going to be the main turret pusher/split pusher (and you shouldn't really be with such a short aa) stick with BT after Manamune/bruta if you want more damage, otherwise more CDR/tankiness. Also I'm fairly sure you can Q 3 times without any CDR....you need something like 35% for 4.
I'm not trying to argue but you can only hit 3 q's off a single e with ~17% cdr I get 5.85 from runes 3% from masteries and 10 from the brutalizer. After doing all the math behind it I can problebly drop 2 of those flat CDR runes for what ever I want.
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BR and Kog don't have any special synergy. The only synergistic part is the Recurve Bow for his W, so any ASpd item has the same synergy with Kog. Just because BR does the same thing as Kog W doesn't mean anything.
No, BR on Kog is not the same as Warmog's on Cho. Or is BFSword on (random autoattacker) the same thing too? Your autoattacks already deal physical damage, BFSword does the same thing.
Specialize the damage type on single champions, diversify your team. Abuse the multiplicative scaling.
BT on shorter range champions is nice and all, but that also means an increased risk that they die and drop the stacks.
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On October 05 2011 05:40 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 05:30 overt wrote:On October 05 2011 05:20 Requizen wrote:On October 05 2011 05:10 overt wrote:On October 05 2011 04:31 r.Evo wrote:On October 05 2011 03:51 Juicyfruit wrote:
Btw, I'd like to discuss two different ranged AD builds that I wish to compare. There's been a high prevalence of bloodthister core builds for a lot of AD carries where previously i.edge was rarely disputed, so I wish to compare them - the currently popular BT + PD combo, and the I.edge with a zeal and a vamp scepter to compliment the stats.
Option 1: PD + BT (takes up 2 item slots)
5845g
100AD
25% lifesteal
25% crit
55% attack speed
15% movespeed
Option 2: I.edge + Zeal + Vamp Scepter (takes up 3 item slots - not good at all if you buy more than 1 dblade)
5475g
80AD
12% lifesteal
35% critical strike
20% attack speed
8% movespeed
+ I.edge passive
Since LW and QSS has to be tossed in there generally, let's just assume those two options are your damage core items and that you won't be getting to i.edge if you build BT and vice versa...
Which one looks to be the better core? Option 1 seems to be very fotm right now but is it really any better than option 2? What if green elixir was factored in? What if you have dedicated? What if you have a nunu/nidalee on your team?
I'm only saying this because I've been seeing a lot of people auto-building bloodthisters, and I was wondering if that might be a common mistake or if it's really that cookie cutter. I think I'm quoting Locodoco here who put the question of "Which BF item on which carry?" into a very, very simple statement. -You want BT on champs which abilities have AD scaling and which have a short attack range ("coincidently" they're the same) -You want IE on all other autoattackers, except those who like BC more. -BC is awesome on Corki (BC+e = real) and Vayne (as+dmg, yes plz) That basicly means: BT: MF, Ezreal, Urgot (Vayne) IE: Trist, Ashe, Cait, Twitch BC: Corki (Vayne) To quote loco even more, "if you can get an early BT, do it." I believe he said if you can buy BT outright at 14 mins you always should. I agree with the list that Evo put up too although I'd add in Kog'Maw and put him under IE as well. Lots of times if I'm getting fed early I go BT. If I'm losing or it's just a normal old game I go for IE. But then again I play a lot more Ashe/Trist/Kog/Cait than the other ADs and I think that IE is just straight better on them. When I play MF I usually go BT cause of her higher risk and dat ult. I get Trinity on Ez/Corki before a BF item and then build my BF item depending on the other team. See I feel the opposite. IE is more damage, BT is more survivability. Why would you need BT if you're ahead? If you're not threatened and you're fed, go for IE for teh big boomz. If I feel behind, I almost need BT so I can fight longer thanks to the lifesteal. My experience, anyway. I'd feel Kog would go for Bloodrazor before a BF item, but eh, I've never played him, so what do I know? BT if you're ahead because it almost guarantees you can get your stacks up quickly. That 100 AD is really strong and the lifesteal lets you play more risky to accomplish objectives quicker. It also means you can easily 1v1 the enemy AD who's already behind. Maybe even 1v2 their support depending on how far ahead you are. IE is good if you're down or in all other situations because your team desperately needs you to do damage and no item offers more damage for an AD carry than IE. If you're ahead early game and you want to go for early IE that's still good too but BT allows you to dominate even harder if you're already ahead. Madreds is meh. You're the AD carry, you're suppose to be doing lots of physical damage. You're suppose to build for late game. IE > Madreds for late game damage and for physical damage. Madreds isn't awful but I think it's very overrated on Koggles. I dunno, I'm just not a big fan of doing primarily magic damage when I play AD carries. Also, Kog's W is a free Bloodrazor so building Madreds on him is like building Warmogs on Cho'gath imo. So it's more when you're behind you need to kill faster to compensate? I dunno, I still feel that if I'm ahead, I don't really need the lifesteal from BT, as I should be ahead enough to just steamroll. I'll try it out in some games though.
It's more that if you're ahead, you're likely worth killing spree gold (incentivizing the other team more to attack you) and getting the survivability benefits of lifesteal makes you much less likely to die and therefore lose your advantage.
Being ahead should deter you from building glass cannon, not promote it.
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On October 05 2011 05:52 Treadmill wrote:
Is it just me or does Riven seem hella powerful on Dominion... good ad ratios on AOE attacks, yes please!
You can tell she was at least partially designed with Dom in mind. She does well in small, quick skirmishes, which fit the type perfectly. Also, the toughest part of her game is laning, which she doesn't have to put up with in Dominion.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 05 2011 05:42 Kaneh wrote:
Kog does not have any more synergy with BR it than any other ranged carry. what makes BR do so much better when kog gets it? the pitiful MR strip?
It's not about BR having synergy with Kog--BR and Wits have superior single-item DPS/gold for autoattacks than items that give real AD. To justify real AD items, AD has to truly be better than a magic proc for you--for most AD carries, this is either because they plan to build enough damage items that the multiplicative benefits of crit/crit damage will outdo the superior single-item cost-effectiveness of BR/Wits, or because they have significant AD scaling. Teemo and pre-buff Kog, for example, had no AD ratios, so Wits/BR were good options for them.
This is why bruisers like Phoenix Udyr and Warwick get Wits as their DPS item of choice. They usually won't build more than 1 damage item, so the multiplicative benefits of real AD stats doesn't matter, and they don't scale off real AD in any way, so Wit's superior DPS/gold outweighs the benefit of true AD items.
In the case of Kog, BR-based builds are somewhat outdated in that Kog actually has an AD ratio now. For single-item DPS, it's still probably fine if you need to build tanky after your first DPS item against strong diving power, but in competitive games, high-level teams build around Kog allowing him to build squishier, making AD items the better buy.
On October 05 2011 06:13 Sabin010 wrote:
Why not get IE and BT?
Because between your first BF item and your second, you generally need LW, a defensive item, and an attack speed source. You'll have both when you're on 6 items, but its a non-trivial decision to decide which to get first.
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On October 05 2011 06:13 Sabin010 wrote:
Why not get IE and BT?
It was really more of a discussion of what to get first. I generally go BFS > Zeal > IE/BT > PD (> LW if armor) > IE/BT, whichever I didn't get.
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England2654 Posts
Seeing as there's no thread for Talon:
I bought him the other day and I've been playing him a bunch in normal queue. I feel I'm used to him in the laning phase and how to sort that out but I'm having issues winning games and I'm wondering a few things.
What are the goals for a Talon in the early/mid game? I'm currently just trying to farm my lane and kill my opponent (if that's a viable choice). Should I be going after other lanes as well or is AFK top sufficient for a successful time.
Currently in team-fights I'm trying to come in from the side and just jump on someone, burst them down then leave while waiting for cooldowns and cleanup. Is this a good way to go about it?
I also don't feel that Talon is fitting in well with my team that often. Is this just because Talon doesn't fit well in many comps or is it just the people I'm playing with atm being bad (this is likely).
I have my ideas on these already but I just want some advice/opinions from elsewhere (not my experience or guides).
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I play talon 1 of 2 ways. Farm minions or Farm Champions. Once you hit 6, your damage output is a bit on the insane side. Ganking a support once that happens, especially if you have a level advantage is pretty easy.
Or you can go AD Ranged Carry style and just farm for 30 minutes and do the same thing at the end of the game.
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RE: Kog
Boils down to the fact that madred's razor is better in lane and prevents kog from being forced to vomit five times per wave in order not to get pushed by most ap carries if he rolls mid. At bot it allows you to force creeps into their tower, which often results in their ad carry losing a solid chunk of his farm, especially since you outrange him and he doesn't have the freedom to ignore you plinking his tower forever. Additionally, the pieces are cheaper and the lane presence of armor + ad bot is superior to waiting for recurve + mantle.
MBR also transitions well off of a 3 dorans opening because of the space economy of the item. What's more, since you're going to be sitting back dinking tanks in the face, its actually rather common that they'll have more than 2.5k hp.
Why isn't MBR common anymore? Because most tanks can either gap close onto his face (at which point he'll want the mres, say, vs irelia's e/r), because dragon 1 is contestable at the zerk/wit's end cash point and most importantly because kog doesn't sit mid anymore. Mid required the sustain of doran and razors in order to keep healthy enough to deal with marauding ganks and other annoyances.
Bot? Not so much. No one counterwards the river, so you can sit around being ungankable all day and your superior range lets you zone while your e/r give you comparable burst to pretty much any other ad carry with the exception of vayne or trist.
I play talon 1 of 2 ways. Farm minions or Farm Champions. Once you hit 6, your damage output is a bit on the insane side. Ganking a support once that happens, especially if you have a level advantage is pretty easy.
Or you can go AD Ranged Carry style and just farm for 30 minutes and do the same thing at the end of the game. You can, and should, reliably do both. Talon is an incredibly robust laner. Raze harrass should be timed so as to net you cs and push the lane minimally while also hitting them every time.
Superior CS will give you enough damage to burst an opposing carry out of the lane with almost 100% certainty while you freefarm. At a certain point the disparity will be such that even a single raze hit will put your opponent in e w q r ignite combo's kill range. W before Q gives you your passive bonus on q and the position of w is better immediately after e because the return will re-snare your opponent, and it comes at the last possible moment in its cycle, making chasing easier.
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On October 05 2011 06:43 Flicky wrote:
Seeing as there's no thread for Talon:
I bought him the other day and I've been playing him a bunch in normal queue. I feel I'm used to him in the laning phase and how to sort that out but I'm having issues winning games and I'm wondering a few things.
What are the goals for a Talon in the early/mid game? I'm currently just trying to farm my lane and kill my opponent (if that's a viable choice). Should I be going after other lanes as well or is AFK top sufficient for a successful time.
Currently in team-fights I'm trying to come in from the side and just jump on someone, burst them down then leave while waiting for cooldowns and cleanup. Is this a good way to go about it?
I also don't feel that Talon is fitting in well with my team that often. Is this just because Talon doesn't fit well in many comps or is it just the people I'm playing with atm being bad (this is likely).
I have my ideas on these already but I just want some advice/opinions from elsewhere (not my experience or guides).
imo the major mistake I see a lot of talons make is...
THEY LANE TOP
Top is full of faggots which run like armor quints, cloth armor starts and defensive masteries - that's not the type of people you want to lane against.
Unless top is retarded there aren't a lot of matchups that Talon will straight up win - unlike mid and bot where he can completely destroy people.
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On October 05 2011 05:35 Phrost wrote:
I played karthus for the first time in years (probably not an exaggeration) and is it just me or is his auto attack animation horrendous? It feels so much clunkier and harder to animation cancel than annie, malzahar, brand, or morgana.
He is a skeleton. Its unfair to compare a skeleton to: small girl, man, demon man, angel woman.
Please think next time before complaining
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On October 05 2011 05:35 Mogwai wrote:most Kogs just do BF Item + PD Stack -> get red buff and blow everyone up. bloodrazor: 30 AD: 1245 gold 25 Armor: 417 gold 40% AS: 1050 gold 2712 gold. You pay 1088 gold for 4% HP in magic damage. compare this to wit's end: 40% AS: 1050 gold 30 MR: 500 gold 1550. You pay 450 gold for 42 magic damage (also there's the extra MR, but let's ignore that for the time being). For these to even out in gold efficiency, your target needs 2539 HP. Even ignoring the extra MRes. And you have to wait a hell of a lot longer to get bloodrazor. Just doesn't make sense to get bloodrazor tbh. Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 05:28 Sandster wrote:On October 05 2011 05:23 Requizen wrote:On October 05 2011 05:21 Mogwai wrote:
bloodrazor is sadly a very shitty item. I thought he stacked it on his Bio-arcane for lolnomnomhealth%? Someone on TL did a writeup on this and I'll just summarize: Bloodrazor (even without magic pen, I believe) is the highest single dps item to buy for the gold. However, IE/PD/BT/LW exponentially scale off each other. So if you have a comp that you NEED to buy defense, you can buy Bloodrazor + Wit's End (maybe) + defensive items to still have respective damage, but otherwise you go IE/PD route to have higher overall damage. This was an old old discussion. Triforce is the new highest single dps item to buy for the gold.
I now feel really stupid for never thinking about it like this. I never bothered to make the mental connection between kog and the rest of the ad carries I consider br to be shit on.
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EPT
