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On May 06 2011 01:46 Lanzoma wrote:
Your argument for ranged suppression is that you can't get out of it unless you have QSS, which is not true - you can prevent it from happening (blowing his flash beforehand, staying out of range, counter-flashing) or you group up with your team so they interrupt for you.
I love playing Sion (even though I suck with him) against Malz, almost everytime he tries to ult you throw your stun at him and see his ult vanish mid animation, pretty lulz
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Ok, I realize this is getting old for everyone else so I will stop spamming the general forum, but in response to Yango:
As I alluded to before, if you consider Malz ult a "poorly-designed skill", then like 50%+ of all the skills in this game are poorly-designed (point and click nukes/CC that are hard to respond to in certain situations), and there are champs that have a kit consisting of 3-4 poorly-designed skills (e.g. Ryze).
You're just picking at Malz/Karthus because ults happen to be more noticeable--when these sorts of skills pervade the QWE skillsets of many other champions (which are far more relevant most of the time).
50% plus champions have a ranged 2.5 second suppression? I never said point and click abilities on their own are the problem, but in combination with the range, suppression, fairly short cd, and ease of use. I realize this isn't SC:BW in skill level but I think that abilities that strong should be more difficult to use. Also, no one else has a guaranteed global nuke, so Karthus is unique in my complaints as well.
If a gank gets you into Karthus ult killrange you did something wrong. The point of a gank is to fight an enemy with an overwhelming advantage. Good players won´t engage in such close fights (especially with an enemy Karthus in the game) the agressor would look for a different target and the victim would instead retreat.
Getting killed by Karthus in that situation isn´t a reward for Karthus for pressing R but for your original victim to get you low enough and burning your defenses.
Once again, I am not saying it is impossible to play against Karthus' at all. You are entirely right in your analysis of the situation.
However, think of this situation. You see a chance in lane, out micro your opponent, and get a kill. In the process, though, you get down to low health. The dead person pings, karthus ults, you are dead. the result is 1 kill for both teams, and their ap carry just got a bit more fed for free. I know the obvious thing to say is, "don't go for the kill then" but that just leads back to me saying that karthus makes the game less fun for everyone.
Ok, for real I am done. Sorry for littering the forum with my noob posts.
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I think the problem with Karthus (especially in soloqueue) ist that he will get farm and kills no matter what and he will put out that farm/kills in massive damage no matter what.
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WTB annie 1 combo him before he gets anywhere.
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Download new client, try to play, everyone gets crazy lag, game ends, get "Game still in progress" ftw.
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On May 06 2011 03:37 Woony wrote:
I think the problem with Karthus (especially in soloqueue) ist that he will get farm and kills no matter what and he will put out that farm/kills in massive damage no matter what.
Not if he gets forced to duo bot with a farm hoggin Janna against Taric/Pre-nerf Garen and gives up first blood because said Janna does nothing but push bot with tornado, so he comes back level 1 against level 4s... (this is a thing that happened to me btw)
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On May 06 2011 03:10 petered wrote:
50% plus champions have a ranged 2.5 second suppression? I never said point and click abilities on their own are the problem, but in combination with the range, suppression, fairly short cd, and ease of use. I realize this isn't SC:BW in skill level but I think that abilities that strong should be more difficult to use.
While Malz uses his ult, he's locked into it due to being a channel spell. Even if you don't CC him (which you team should if they're competent), he can still be quickly focused down as he is a squishy. If your team doesn't then that is an issue with your team, not Malz. Using his ult blindly is pretty risky because you disabling yourself for the cast duration so it's not like there's no skill involved. He only has 1820 base HP at lvl 18 with no items, rune or masteries. Also, once he uses all his spells killing someone, he's not terribly useful until all his spells come off CD.
This is how AP Burst Casters are supposed to play. You blow all your spells on a target. If they're dead, then you did a good job, now get out. If they're not, then hopefully your wrecked enough damage with them. If you didn't accomplish anything at all, then you're dead-weight to your team.
You have to recognise that at low-levels, everyone plays sub-optimally. Therefore the real issue is not a champion's skillset or inherent power, but more about who made the worse mistake. For example, if your team has terrible positioning, lets Veigar stun them and then dies to his spell rotation, it's not because Veigar is inherently amazing with a 2.5sec stun and high damage.
On May 06 2011 03:10 petered wrote:
Once again, I am not saying it is impossible to play against Karthus' at all. You are entirely right in your analysis of the situation.
However, think of this situation. You see a chance in lane, out micro your opponent, and get a kill. In the process, though, you get down to low health. The dead person pings, karthus ults, you are dead. the result is 1 kill for both teams, and their ap carry just got a bit more fed for free. I know the obvious thing to say is, "don't go for the kill then" but that just leads back to me saying that karthus makes the game less fun for everyone.
You play around your enemy's team composition and skills. Whenever you try to go for a kill, you take risk that you might die as a result. If you miscalculate and you screw up and end up dead (from your target, the turret, jungler, etc.) then it's your mistake. Instead of trying to simply "get a kill", you're instead trying to "get a kill and still survive a Kartus ult" (say, with good use of a Sivir's spellshield). There's also nothing to say you could ask your teammate to CC Karthus when he ults to interrupt it and stop it. His ult has a 3sec channel, so there's still time for him to be CC-ed, or even focused down.
While you argue Karthu's ult is anti-fun, I could argue that it's not because it's introduced an extra layer of depth and complexity required to be considered skilled. Refusing to respond and adapt and getting punished for it should be right. It's like saying "all I want to do is play long late-game macro wars in SC because I get a chance to show off my multitasking skills" and then not adapting to the possibility you get straight up 6 pooled or something. 6-pool hasn't made the game less fun. You just have to adapt around the additional layer of complexity.
Anti-fun is not when something is good and you haven't responded to it properly. Anti-fun is when there is no correct response to something in any circumstance and takes away your options. Don't confuse additional complexity and troublesome to respond to with anti-fun.
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Malz can move to cancel his ultimate mid channel.
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I asked my 1750 elo friend to try to play on my 1340 elo account o_O Let's see what happens!
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chances are he'll carry you to 1600 mad easily.
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Eh. There's a lot of elements to game design that Riot tries to explain as making it "fun" for both sides, but really, a lot of it has to do with elegance v effectiveness.
There a lot of very effective game design choices in LoL, but overall, it's a really ugly game in term of elegant design choices. It's a bit better than say, DoTA/HoN, where some of the core mechanics are just arbitrary choices of a super outdated engine, but LoL still has a really high barrier of entry due to the huge amount of knowledge needed to play this game.
I think Malzahar is a very good champion in terms of effectiveness - his skillset provides a lot of utility and interesting ways to exploit that utility, but I think petered's complaint is that it's not very elegant. When you get killed by Malzahar because of his ultimate, it doesn't feel like it's because your opponent outplayed you; it feels more like a result of the character's skillset not being interactive on your part. Compare this to something like dying to Ezreal in a 1v1, where you probably lost because he landed his skillshots correctly, or you made a mistake that's clearly visible on your part.
Why don't people like playing against Eve? Because stealth is a horribly used gimmick of a mechanic in LoL that is only really interesting (and even that's a stretch) on Akali, in my opinion. It's an inelegant design choice because players don't feel a reward for buying a vision ward and placing it in their lane; they feel punished for something they have very little control over. On the other hand, Eve has very effective spells that are good at what they do.
It's very frustrating to die to something like that because of the nature of how non-interactive it is. That's not to say that we should get rid of all these auto-target spells and have every champion be all skillshots all the time, but this question of elegance v effectiveness is really a question of balancing within the mechanics and constraints presented by the game, and balancing for a broader concept of what makes certain things fun for everyone involved in the experience. It's noticeably harder in a PvP centric game, but it's something to think about.
EDIT: In terms of effectiveness, Malz is really strong and a great competitive pick IMO, and if you're talking purely about competitive community (as TL tends to be), then DEAL WITH IT B)
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On May 06 2011 04:11 Mogwai wrote:
chances are he'll carry you to 1600 mad easily.
I wouldn't mind at all =D
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On May 06 2011 04:02 MoonBear wrote:
Anti-fun is not when something is good and you haven't responded to it properly. Anti-fun is when there is no correct response to something in any circumstance and takes away your options. Don't confuse additional complexity and troublesome to respond to with anti-fun.
Anti-fun is GP's old deny.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On May 06 2011 04:18 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 04:02 MoonBear wrote:
Anti-fun is not when something is good and you haven't responded to it properly. Anti-fun is when there is no correct response to something in any circumstance and takes away your options. Don't confuse additional complexity and troublesome to respond to with anti-fun. Anti-fun is GP's old deny.
Yup. It takes away your options and there is no way to respond at all.
On May 06 2011 04:13 dnastyx wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Eh. There's a lot of elements to game design that Riot tries to explain as making it "fun" for both sides, but really, a lot of it has to do with elegance v effectiveness.
There a lot of very effective game design choices in LoL, but overall, it's a really ugly game in term of elegant design choices. It's a bit better than say, DoTA/HoN, where some of the core mechanics are just arbitrary choices of a super outdated engine, but LoL still has a really high barrier of entry due to the huge amount of knowledge needed to play this game.
I think Malzahar is a very good champion in terms of effectiveness - his skillset provides a lot of utility and interesting ways to exploit that utility, but I think petered's complaint is that it's not very elegant. When you get killed by Malzahar because of his ultimate, it doesn't feel like it's because your opponent outplayed you; it feels more like a result of the character's skillset not being interactive on your part. Compare this to something like dying to Ezreal in a 1v1, where you probably lost because he landed his skillshots correctly, or you made a mistake that's clearly visible on your part.
Why don't people like playing against Eve? Because stealth is a horribly used gimmick of a mechanic in LoL that is only really interesting (and even that's a stretch) on Akali, in my opinion. It's an inelegant design choice because players don't feel a reward for buying a vision ward and placing it in their lane; they feel punished for something they have very little control over. On the other hand, Eve has very effective spells that are good at what they do.
It's very frustrating to die to something like that because of the nature of how non-interactive it is. That's not to say that we should get rid of all these auto-target spells and have every champion be all skillshots all the time, but this question of elegance v effectiveness is really a question of balancing within the mechanics and constraints presented by the game, and balancing for a broader concept of what makes certain things fun for everyone involved in the experience. It's noticeably harder in a PvP centric game, but it's something to think about.
EDIT: In terms of effectiveness, Malz is really strong and a great competitive pick IMO, and if you're talking purely about competitive community (as TL tends to be), then DEAL WITH IT B)
I totally agree; this is pretty much the problem with any game where you are reliant on your team. If everything in game was able to be deal with without relying on your team, then you have an extremely shallow game where teamwork doesn't matter as much as it should. However, once you introduce elements where it requires you to rely on you team, you introduce more options and complexity but it also means you're at the mercy of your team sometimes which causes frustration. I think Riot has done a reasonable job in this regard with balance so far.
Stealth is a horribly binary game mechanic. Either it works great, or it fails flat. I'm interested to see how the stealth rework will come out to be.
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Stealth could work so that you become invisible when opponent has their back turned, and it'd be a passive ability instead of a skill. ^-^
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On May 06 2011 04:30 Shikyo wrote:
Stealth could work so that you become invisible when opponent has their back turned, and it'd be a passive ability instead of a skill. ^-^
running around in circles to try to find Eve, #1 game mechanic, super fun for everyone.
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Should I be happy or sad that dnastyx said what I was trying to say more clearly and in less words?
My idea for eve is that she should be permanently stealthed, but if your champ calls out "marco" she has to respond with "polo" and a ping on the map revealing her location.
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Things Riot needs to fix/get rid imo:
[ ] Stealth
[ ] Ignite
[ ] Global Teleports
[ ] Releasing a new hero every two weeks
Things Riot needs to implement:
[ ] Observer mode
[ ] Replays
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I should be head of Riot, I'D GET SHIT DONE!
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EPT
