On January 16 2018 05:35 Valon wrote: As far as Tassadar being an assassin that doesn't make sense and doesn't fit with the fantasy of the High templar. Apart from storm and archon every other ability that has been assaigned to the unit in a public capacity has been support based. (Hallucination, Plasma Surge, phase shift, force field, and Time Rift)
Feedback? An ability that was not only considered, but actually implemented? Most of us are more familiar with the version of the game that was actually released, rather than Blizzard's internal Alpha models too, so I don't see why that should matter. I liked the Sentries with tails better than the snowglobes, but that's still the game we have. Your argument doesn't actually work, because those support based abilities that were considered for High Templar were never implemented, because they didn't fit the High Templar.
Hell, I've been disappointed with how weak Storm is in StarCraft 2 compared to the original, and have been mourning the loss of Khaydarin Amulet. I have no idea how you can say that the foot-tickler we got in Heroes of the Storm is the "better fit" for the fantasy of the High Templar.
Tassadar as an assassin would be interesting to see.
The problem is that storm is just a waweclear ability. If you contrast it to Morgana in LOL, Morgana's W at least has some synergy with its Q that can lock down opponents for 2'ish seconds.
Generally abilities that mainly function as waweclear are just a waste of an ability spot imo, and I think this also showed that HOTS designers - at least 2-4 years ago - struggled do understand how to design heroes that felt reawarding to use.
What if storm had an AoE silence or slow on heroes, in addition to damage?
Kinda overlapping with stukov then.
My complaint is that when designing an ability you need to make it feel powerful if used correctly and you need to be in "control" of the succes of the outcome (for the most part).
So the idea that you can cast an AOE ability over time and then the opponents can just walk out of the area with almost no cost/damage taken in the proces. That's just straight up boring and while this mechanic works in an RTS, it doesn't work well in a MOBA unless the hero has some other type of CC in its kit that makes it possible to lock the enemy heroes within the area.
When I go back and listen to some of the old videos on HOTS from 2013 it's clear that the designers were not focussing at all on making a kit that felt skillbased and rewarding. I feel they slowly got better at it over time, but I still think there are some design aspects that I disagree with (but that's not related to this topic).
Feedback? An ability that was not only considered, but actually implemented? Most of us are more familiar with the version of the game that was actually released, rather than Blizzard's internal Alpha models too, so I don't see why that should matter. I liked the Sentries with tails better than the snowglobes, but that's still the game we have. Your argument doesn't actually work, because those support based abilities that were considered for High Templar were never implemented, because they didn't fit the High Templar.
Hell, I've been disappointed with how weak Storm is in StarCraft 2 compared to the original, and have been mourning the loss of Khaydarin Amulet. I have no idea how you can say that the foot-tickler we got in Heroes of the Storm is the "better fit" for the fantasy of the High Templar.
What about feedback? I can see why they didn't add that one because it probably wouldn't have worked in HOTS. They mentioned in a post talking about mana burn and if it should be in the game. They said something along the lines that it doesn't offer much counter play.
Your point about the sentry doesn't work because that's a model change not an ability change. So that has nothing to do with anything really.
Getting back to the high templar, the reason the abilities were changed was do to balance.
Shield recharge was removed, because until recently, and especially in the alpha of WOL, the dev team considered the protoss shields to recharge fast enough not to need that kind of ability since they sped it up from what it was in BW. But they did allow a Templar Hero unit from the campaign of WOL to use the shield recharge. SO obviously, they thought it was thematically appropriate for a powerful templar to be able to recharge shields of allies.
As for Forcefield. It was on the Templar but then they moved it back down the the sentry most likely because they thought protoss needed that spell sooner but they didn't want to downgrade the templar to Tier 1.5. Phase shift was removed because they didn't think it added much to the gameplay feedback opened up more interesting opportunities. Phase shift does sound like something a powerful psionic could do anyway.
As for his tickle attack. The templar used to use time warp so not much of a strech to think that a powerful psionic could slow enemies down with a distortion beam.
They draw inspiration from everything. They never just draw on what was actually implemented. So they looked at all the spells that were considered for the high templar and took the ones they thought would work well.
I'm not arguing that his abilities are perfect, or that he has no room for improvement. I'm arguing that contrary to the article he does capture the fantasy of the high templar because all his abilities are high templar based abilities or have been at once point. So he does fit thematically with a powerful templar.
On January 16 2018 10:48 Valon wrote: What about feedback?
It's an ability that High Templar actually have and fits with the 'fantasy' of them being an Assassin unit.
On January 16 2018 10:48 Valon wrote:Your point about the sentry doesn't work because that's a model change not an ability change. So that has nothing to do with anything really.
Please explain how models that never made it to launch and nobody played are irrelevant, but abilities that never made it to launch and nobody played are relevant.
On January 16 2018 10:48 Valon wrote:But they did allow a Templar Hero unit from the campaign of WOL to use the shield recharge. SO obviously, they thought it was thematically appropriate for a powerful templar to be able to recharge shields of allies.
Karass? He's not even playable and dies pretty much instantly after you meet him. He's a redshirt. I'd be shocked if half the people who played Wings of Liberty remembered his name, he's even less impactful than Nyon. That's a terrible example of a 'powerful templar'.
On January 16 2018 10:48 Valon wrote:I'm not arguing that his abilities are perfect, or that he has no room for improvement. I'm arguing that contrary to the article he does capture the fantasy of the high templar because all his abilities are high templar based abilities or have been at once point. So he does fit thematically with a powerful templar.
You don't seem to understand the actual issue though. The fact that HotSTassadar has an ability called 'Psionic Storm' that uses the same visuals as the StarCraft 2 ability of the same name is irrelevant because it doesn't have any effect even comparable to the ability called 'Psionic Storm' that Tassadar and High Templar actually have. And the fact that support abilities were at some point considered for the High Templar (as a secondary addition to the purely damaging Psi Storm) before being reconsidered in favour of another massively damaging spell is even less than relevant, because they demonstrate that those abilities were decided against.
This article argues that Tassadar doesn't capture the fantasy of Tassadar, the StarCraft hero, or the fantasy of the High Templar, the StarCraft unit, or the fantasy of the High Templar, the StarCraft 2 unit. This is that fantasy.
You're arguing that Tassadar captures the fantasy of the High Templar, a briefly considered conceptual unit that was ultimately deemed unfit to be released for StarCraft 2. And nobody cares about that unit. Hell, it would still have had SC2 Psi Storm, so I'm willing to bet even that unit wouldn't have been played as a support. Though I can't know, because nobody ever played it.
Is this article an oddball or do HotS players actually care this much about lore? It's supposedly a competitive game and even an esport, gameplay should be much more important than names and fantasies ...
On January 19 2018 00:26 opisska wrote: Is this article an oddball or do HotS players actually care this much about lore? It's supposedly a competitive game and even an esport, gameplay should be much more important than names and fantasies ...
I think it's more of an issue with Tassadar's kit in general, it's considered to be pretty mild and boring by the general public and being attached to one of the dopest Blizz characters only amplifies that feeling.
On January 19 2018 00:26 opisska wrote: Is this article an oddball or do HotS players actually care this much about lore? It's supposedly a competitive game and even an esport, gameplay should be much more important than names and fantasies ...
One of the main draws of heroes of the storm is to be able to play with the characters you know and love. If a character doesn't play the way you expect it takes away from the experience. Sure, it's not the end of the world but you do end up wishing things were different. It's as if Sc3 is released and now zerglings have a ranged atack, and are air to air units. Sure they look like zerglings, are called zerglings, they come in pairs...but are they really a zergling?
About the disscussion of HT abilities in beta... I think here we have the case of a unit of an RTS not translating very well to a MOBA. If you port the HT exactly as it is, without basic atacks, and just psy-storm and feedback he would make for a terrible unit. It simply wouldn't work as an Assassin, however that doesn't mean the unit isn't an assassin in starcraft 2. HT by not having good AA and being spellcasters need other units to support them, but like I said the other units are supporting the HT so they can deal their damage, and not the other way around.
Zealots are there to tank for the HT while they cast Psy-Storm for example. HTs might seem like they are supporting the zealots, but in reality they are the ones doing all the damage while the zealots just act as meatshield.
High Templars are the exact definition of a glass cannon spellcaster. Deals great ammount of damage but is slow and vulnerable. I think Jaina is a good example of the role Tassadar should have taken in Heroes of the Storm.
Why does the High Templar have an assassin fantasy? Marines have an assassin fantasy, High Templars occupy a more hybridized role than pure offense, this is my disconnect, that the High Templar is a purely assassin archetype, I don't really understand that.
On January 19 2018 12:12 Zambrah wrote: Why does the High Templar have an assassin fantasy? Marines have an assassin fantasy, High Templars occupy a more hybridized role than pure offense, this is my disconnect, that the High Templar is a purely assassin archetype, I don't really understand that.
If you watch this cinematic carefully, you'll notice that the zealots kill about 3 zerglings and 2 banelings.
What else is there for a High Templar to DO in that cinematic than roast Zerg? Its also hardly illustrative of the depth of a High Templar, if this was enough to determine High Templar fantasty (compared to the entirety of StarCraft 1 and 2) then yeah, they'd be assassins, but we can do better!
Am I wrong to see High Templar as general scholars rather than Warriors? Powerful surely, but every description I read emphasizes more their psionic aptitude and seems to paint their violence a last-resort situation. I don't see whats incongruent about Tassadar having a Shield ability (in line with the Powerful Psionics aspect of the kit), Psionic Storm (I dont think anyone will argue having Psionic Storm on a Templar) and Phase Shift. The two parts that I think fit least into his kit are Phase Shift and Oracle. Oracle I find particularly confusing, because to my knowledge that would be more of a Zeratul trait than anything else. Phase Shift seems like a mechanical choice more than a story or flavor one.
I'm just not sure what precisely you would have changed? Pure assassin? Why? Templar are a much more nuanced Protoss unit than a simple assassin,
We have from SC2, Storm (with an upgrade to restore shields via Storm in Coop), Feedback, Merge Archon, from SC:BW we have Storm, Hallucination, Merge Archon
Tassadar has two of these already, Archon and Storm, which I'm sure we both agree are very iconic if not wholly sensical in the case of Archon.
So in the case of the mechanical abilities on Tassadar we have two ones that we mostly agree on. So the debate would be between Forcefield (weird), Phase Shift (fine, if not rather vanilla), and Oracle (pretty much a nonbo for flavor or sense.)
So we're left with Feedback and Hallucination to work with if we're aping from StarCraft's actual Templar abilities, but lets be real, noone wants to play the Protoss Templar with HALLUCINATION as an ability (especially when we already have Samuro!) and Feedback (begging to be useless or too good, just a generally bad idea to have manaburn, although there are interest applications for it, like adding CD or putting abilities on CD for 1 sec. or something, still probably a bad design) now we can dip a bit into the nature of Tassadar as a character, he was an extremely potent Templar, very compassionate, a martyr, etc. etc.
I'd argue that his current kit fits Tassadar the character more than a pure assassin would. Forcefield? Sure, weird, but pick Archon and you have a general fit that seems to pretty much mesh with Tassadar and hits the notes that are consistent for a High Templar. Could Tassadar also have some sort of Psi-Blast to reflect the new HT auto attack? Yeah, it probably wouldn't change much for his fantasy, but it couldn't really hurt. Could Oracle be literally anything else and be a better fit? Absolutely. Does having Tassadar be an offensive-support seem off character/off Templar? I think thats a harder sell.
And as my last statement, how long have High Templars gone without even having an auto attack!
On January 19 2018 15:33 Zambrah wrote: What else is there for a High Templar to DO in that cinematic than roast Zerg? Its also hardly illustrative of the depth of a High Templar, if this was enough to determine High Templar fantasty (compared to the entirety of StarCraft 1 and 2) then yeah, they'd be assassins, but we can do better!
Am I wrong to see High Templar as general scholars rather than Warriors? Powerful surely, but every description I read emphasizes more their psionic aptitude and seems to paint their violence a last-resort situation. I don't see whats incongruent about Tassadar having a Shield ability (in line with the Powerful Psionics aspect of the kit), Psionic Storm (I dont think anyone will argue having Psionic Storm on a Templar) and Phase Shift. The two parts that I think fit least into his kit are Phase Shift and Oracle. Oracle I find particularly confusing, because to my knowledge that would be more of a Zeratul trait than anything else. Phase Shift seems like a mechanical choice more than a story or flavor one.
I'm just not sure what precisely you would have changed? Pure assassin? Why? Templar are a much more nuanced Protoss unit than a simple assassin,
We have from SC2, Storm (with an upgrade to restore shields via Storm in Coop), Feedback, Merge Archon, from SC:BW we have Storm, Hallucination, Merge Archon
Tassadar has two of these already, Archon and Storm, which I'm sure we both agree are very iconic if not wholly sensical in the case of Archon.
So in the case of the mechanical abilities on Tassadar we have two ones that we mostly agree on. So the debate would be between Forcefield (weird), Phase Shift (fine, if not rather vanilla), and Oracle (pretty much a nonbo for flavor or sense.)
So we're left with Feedback and Hallucination to work with if we're aping from StarCraft's actual Templar abilities, but lets be real, noone wants to play the Protoss Templar with HALLUCINATION as an ability (especially when we already have Samuro!) and Feedback (begging to be useless or too good, just a generally bad idea to have manaburn, although there are interest applications for it, like adding CD or putting abilities on CD for 1 sec. or something, still probably a bad design) now we can dip a bit into the nature of Tassadar as a character, he was an extremely potent Templar, very compassionate, a martyr, etc. etc.
I'd argue that his current kit fits Tassadar the character more than a pure assassin would. Forcefield? Sure, weird, but pick Archon and you have a general fit that seems to pretty much mesh with Tassadar and hits the notes that are consistent for a High Templar. Could Tassadar also have some sort of Psi-Blast to reflect the new HT auto attack? Yeah, it probably wouldn't change much for his fantasy, but it couldn't really hurt. Could Oracle be literally anything else and be a better fit? Absolutely. Does having Tassadar be an offensive-support seem off character/off Templar? I think thats a harder sell.
And as my last statement, how long have High Templars gone without even having an auto attack!
"High Templars are the most seasoned warriors of the Protoss armies, an elite cadre who have advanced far beyond the Zealots to attain an even higher plane of martial focus. Although they excel in physical combat, High Templar prefer to use psionic attacks that they have developed through intensive training...."
"As veteran warriors, the High Templar have attained a superior plane of martial focus...."
"The cloth-adorned armor worn by the High Templar...can be fitted with wrist-mounted projectors capable of shaping the user's energy into psionic blades. However, as the High Templar forgo melee combat in pursuit of psionic mastery, these weapons are considered a last resort."
"By means of their formidable psionic ability, these warriors can grasp the energy currents present in beings or machines and drain them through a violent chain reaction...."
"Two High Templars can combine to form an Archon, a psionic warrior that can attack air and ground units."
On January 19 2018 00:26 opisska wrote: Is this article an oddball or do HotS players actually care this much about lore? It's supposedly a competitive game and even an esport, gameplay should be much more important than names and fantasies ...
Well, I only care about Heroes of the Storm in the most casual way, but care a lot about StarCraft, including its lore (here's me writing many pages of text on the StarCraft campaigns up to Wings of Liberty) and probably would never even have bothered trying this game out otherwise. So yeah, it does matter to some people.
On January 19 2018 15:33 Zambrah wrote: Am I wrong to see High Templar as general scholars rather than Warriors?
Absolutely. Scholars are archetypically Judicator caste. Templar are warriors, and High Templar are the peak of that discipline. Zealots are Templar in training, High Templar are the veterans and masters.
On January 19 2018 15:33 Zambrah wrote: Tassadar has two of these already, Archon and Storm, which I'm sure we both agree are very iconic if not wholly sensical in the case of Archon.
Except they don't have the same effect. Just because it has the same name and art doesn't make it the same ability. Psionic Storm is one of the most powerful offensive abilities in StarCraft.
On January 19 2018 15:33 Zambrah wrote:And as my last statement, how long have High Templars gone without even having an auto attack!
Tassadar had one from the start. It was called Psi Assault and did 20 damage per hit.
On January 19 2018 15:33 Zambrah wrote: What else is there for a High Templar to DO in that cinematic than roast Zerg? Its also hardly illustrative of the depth of a High Templar, if this was enough to determine High Templar fantasty (compared to the entirety of StarCraft 1 and 2) then yeah, they'd be assassins, but we can do better!
Am I wrong to see High Templar as general scholars rather than Warriors? Powerful surely, but every description I read emphasizes more their psionic aptitude and seems to paint their violence a last-resort situation. I don't see whats incongruent about Tassadar having a Shield ability (in line with the Powerful Psionics aspect of the kit), Psionic Storm (I dont think anyone will argue having Psionic Storm on a Templar) and Phase Shift. The two parts that I think fit least into his kit are Phase Shift and Oracle. Oracle I find particularly confusing, because to my knowledge that would be more of a Zeratul trait than anything else. Phase Shift seems like a mechanical choice more than a story or flavor one.
I'm just not sure what precisely you would have changed? Pure assassin? Why? Templar are a much more nuanced Protoss unit than a simple assassin,
We have from SC2, Storm (with an upgrade to restore shields via Storm in Coop), Feedback, Merge Archon, from SC:BW we have Storm, Hallucination, Merge Archon
Tassadar has two of these already, Archon and Storm, which I'm sure we both agree are very iconic if not wholly sensical in the case of Archon.
So in the case of the mechanical abilities on Tassadar we have two ones that we mostly agree on. So the debate would be between Forcefield (weird), Phase Shift (fine, if not rather vanilla), and Oracle (pretty much a nonbo for flavor or sense.)
So we're left with Feedback and Hallucination to work with if we're aping from StarCraft's actual Templar abilities, but lets be real, noone wants to play the Protoss Templar with HALLUCINATION as an ability (especially when we already have Samuro!) and Feedback (begging to be useless or too good, just a generally bad idea to have manaburn, although there are interest applications for it, like adding CD or putting abilities on CD for 1 sec. or something, still probably a bad design) now we can dip a bit into the nature of Tassadar as a character, he was an extremely potent Templar, very compassionate, a martyr, etc. etc.
I'd argue that his current kit fits Tassadar the character more than a pure assassin would. Forcefield? Sure, weird, but pick Archon and you have a general fit that seems to pretty much mesh with Tassadar and hits the notes that are consistent for a High Templar. Could Tassadar also have some sort of Psi-Blast to reflect the new HT auto attack? Yeah, it probably wouldn't change much for his fantasy, but it couldn't really hurt. Could Oracle be literally anything else and be a better fit? Absolutely. Does having Tassadar be an offensive-support seem off character/off Templar? I think thats a harder sell.
And as my last statement, how long have High Templars gone without even having an auto attack!
"High Templars are the most seasoned warriors of the Protoss armies, an elite cadre who have advanced far beyond the Zealots to attain an even higher plane of martial focus. Although they excel in physical combat, High Templar prefer to use psionic attacks that they have developed through intensive training...."
"As veteran warriors, the High Templar have attained a superior plane of martial focus...."
"The cloth-adorned armor worn by the High Templar...can be fitted with wrist-mounted projectors capable of shaping the user's energy into psionic blades. However, as the High Templar forgo melee combat in pursuit of psionic mastery, these weapons are considered a last resort."
"By means of their formidable psionic ability, these warriors can grasp the energy currents present in beings or machines and drain them through a violent chain reaction...."
"Two High Templars can combine to form an Archon, a psionic warrior that can attack air and ground units."
On January 19 2018 15:33 Zambrah wrote: What else is there for a High Templar to DO in that cinematic than roast Zerg? Its also hardly illustrative of the depth of a High Templar, if this was enough to determine High Templar fantasty (compared to the entirety of StarCraft 1 and 2) then yeah, they'd be assassins, but we can do better!
Am I wrong to see High Templar as general scholars rather than Warriors? Powerful surely, but every description I read emphasizes more their psionic aptitude and seems to paint their violence a last-resort situation. I don't see whats incongruent about Tassadar having a Shield ability (in line with the Powerful Psionics aspect of the kit), Psionic Storm (I dont think anyone will argue having Psionic Storm on a Templar) and Phase Shift. The two parts that I think fit least into his kit are Phase Shift and Oracle. Oracle I find particularly confusing, because to my knowledge that would be more of a Zeratul trait than anything else. Phase Shift seems like a mechanical choice more than a story or flavor one.
I'm just not sure what precisely you would have changed? Pure assassin? Why? Templar are a much more nuanced Protoss unit than a simple assassin,
We have from SC2, Storm (with an upgrade to restore shields via Storm in Coop), Feedback, Merge Archon, from SC:BW we have Storm, Hallucination, Merge Archon
Tassadar has two of these already, Archon and Storm, which I'm sure we both agree are very iconic if not wholly sensical in the case of Archon.
So in the case of the mechanical abilities on Tassadar we have two ones that we mostly agree on. So the debate would be between Forcefield (weird), Phase Shift (fine, if not rather vanilla), and Oracle (pretty much a nonbo for flavor or sense.)
So we're left with Feedback and Hallucination to work with if we're aping from StarCraft's actual Templar abilities, but lets be real, noone wants to play the Protoss Templar with HALLUCINATION as an ability (especially when we already have Samuro!) and Feedback (begging to be useless or too good, just a generally bad idea to have manaburn, although there are interest applications for it, like adding CD or putting abilities on CD for 1 sec. or something, still probably a bad design) now we can dip a bit into the nature of Tassadar as a character, he was an extremely potent Templar, very compassionate, a martyr, etc. etc.
I'd argue that his current kit fits Tassadar the character more than a pure assassin would. Forcefield? Sure, weird, but pick Archon and you have a general fit that seems to pretty much mesh with Tassadar and hits the notes that are consistent for a High Templar. Could Tassadar also have some sort of Psi-Blast to reflect the new HT auto attack? Yeah, it probably wouldn't change much for his fantasy, but it couldn't really hurt. Could Oracle be literally anything else and be a better fit? Absolutely. Does having Tassadar be an offensive-support seem off character/off Templar? I think thats a harder sell.
And as my last statement, how long have High Templars gone without even having an auto attack!
"High Templars are the most seasoned warriors of the Protoss armies, an elite cadre who have advanced far beyond the Zealots to attain an even higher plane of martial focus. Although they excel in physical combat, High Templar prefer to use psionic attacks that they have developed through intensive training...."
"As veteran warriors, the High Templar have attained a superior plane of martial focus...."
"The cloth-adorned armor worn by the High Templar...can be fitted with wrist-mounted projectors capable of shaping the user's energy into psionic blades. However, as the High Templar forgo melee combat in pursuit of psionic mastery, these weapons are considered a last resort."
"By means of their formidable psionic ability, these warriors can grasp the energy currents present in beings or machines and drain them through a violent chain reaction...."
"Two High Templars can combine to form an Archon, a psionic warrior that can attack air and ground units."
As someone who hasn't had much SC experience and isn't too concerned with his representation, I still consider Tassadar a support, but just not a generic healing support. I personally find that a majority of his support comes with his ability to lock down kills. If you go with resonation a level 7 and force wall at level 10, you can almost always guarantee a kill against anyone apart from those with escape abilities that go over terrain (Genji etc).
In my opinion Tassadar needs to be reworked into a Multiclass Specialist/Support, where your choice of heroic talents either drastically affect your damage or healing output. That would make him a far better pick.
On January 21 2018 11:06 Clbull wrote: In my opinion Tassadar needs to be reworked into a Multiclass Specialist/Support, where your choice of heroic talents either drastically affect your damage or healing output. That would make him a far better pick.
Could be a good idea, have Shield be his Ultimate maybe, alongside Archon. I kind of love Force Wall though, but it seems like it'd be way too strong for his base kit.
EPT
