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minion count---------------------0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7------Avg.
Savage Roar Dmg.( 3 )------2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16----9 ( adjusted for mana cost - 15 )
Bloodlust Dmg.( 5 )------------0 3 6 9 12 15 18 21----10.5
Damage Diff---------------------2 1 0 -1 -2 -3 -4 -5
Savage Roar is 2 mana cheaper then Bloodlust yet only 1.5 of damage lower then Bloodlust on averge ( taking into acount simple avergae of possible damage ) and when you adjust for mana cost it's ~50% better. And the funny thing this only skews toward SR the less minions there are.
If you take into account that druid has +3 charge minions available to it then you cross compare +3 minion values
you get this thing:
minions (before FoN)----------0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7------Avg.
Savage Roar ( 3 )---------------8 10 12 14 16 16 16 16----13.5 ( adjusted for mana cost - 22.5 )
Bloodlust ( 5 )--------------------0 3 6 9 12 15 18 21----10.5
Damage Diff----------------------8 7 6 5 4 1 -2 -4
So, Savage roar in druid ( assuming you run FoN ) is a 13.5 avg. Damage card for three mana.
WOW.
*I initially wrote this up in QQ but I think it's a cool breakdown and deserves it's own thread.
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I dont get it why savage roar isn't 4 mana. You can still do your 14 damage combo but it will take 1 more mana. And because we have the Emperor, Savage Roar should definately be 4 mana.
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Savage Roar would be better than Bloodlust even with overlaod 3!!! 
Yes it's second best druid card after Innervate. Anybody that plays druid knows that.
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Bloodlust does scale well with Shamans hero power though but yes it's quite an expensive card
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Another consideration is that Savage Roar gives you an extra attack on your hero. When you have to deal with, say, a Sludge Belcher, the attack on your hero becomes very important to deal with the slime; as such, the additional granularity in damage that Savage Roar gives you is valuable in its own right.
We all agree that the Force of Nature + Savage Roar combo is really strong, but Savage Roar is the rare combo piece that is fairly decent outside of its combo; in a pinch, it's not a bad tool to help you trade up with your minions, similarly to how Warlocks sometimes use Power Overwhelming, or Shamans use Rockbiter Weapon. Also, if you have a big enough board, Savage Roar is worth a lot of damage even if you don't have Force of Nature to combo it with.
Yes, the damage potential of Bloodlust is greater, to be sure. But given the additional granularity in Savage Roar's damage and the fact that it's comparatively versatile (Bloodlust is quite often a dead card in your hand), I consider the effect of Savage Roar to be roughly on par with the effect of Bloodlust- as such, it boggles my mind that one of them costs 2 less mana than the other. You could argue that at 5 mana Bloodlust is too expensive (Shamans only play it sparingly, after all), but I've been arguing that Savage Roar should cost 4 mana for a long time now.
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Savage roar to 4, Bite to 3, druid balanced.
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Doesn't it have to do with Druid being far worse then Shaman at filling the board rapidly?
Without Force of Nature, Savage Roar would most likely not see any play as Druid usually revolves around big minions and getting them out more quickly with specialized cards (Innervate and Wild Growth), you need at least 2 minions on board ready to attack or it's an awkwardly spread out 4 damage for 3 mana, it kind of synergizes with Cenarius and Dark Wispers, but that's the only class cards and Dark Wispers is far too easy to remove before you can use the Savage Roar.
In contrast, Shaman has it's hero ability, Feral Spirit, a bunch of cheap class minions and a lot of windfury, which doubles the damage boost value from the Bloodlust, and ofcourse Shaman deck's tend to run a lot of small sticky minions anyway to get Flametongue value, Haunted Creeper, various small mechs and ofcourse Boom (but who doesn't run him?).
The comparison made in ths thread is too simple, ignoring how the decks work and how Shaman will on average have far more bodies on the board.
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If we were to nerf Savage Roar, I'd like it to not buff the hero's damage. That should be enough to keep it relevant while not nerfing it to uselessness.
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the assumption that druid and shaman will have the same average number of creatures on the board is massively skewing your analysis. druid having 3.5 creatures on average is just completely laughable.
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On April 14 2015 20:09 SiaBBo wrote:
I dont get it why savage roar isn't 4 mana. You can still do your 14 damage combo but it will take 1 more mana. And because we have the Emperor, Savage Roar should definately be 4 mana.
The problem there lies with Emperor Thaurissan himself, not Savage Roar's mana cost.
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For the comparison with Bloodlust, of course some cards are better than others, see Darbomb vs. Wrath/Frostbolt or Fireball vs. Mortal Strike. That is nothing new.
And for the power level: all classes need something good to do. I find Druid perfectly balanced atm. What else is Druid? Play Taunts every turn and hope to get Innervate or Wild Growth to start playing them a turn earlier?
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Savage roar would work best if it were worded like Swipe. Give your hero +3 attack and your minions +1. This would make the combo deal 12 damage, it would not punish few minions on board as hard as it doest and it would make it a pseudo-removal card in desperate times.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On April 15 2015 06:13 Jacenoob wrote:
For the comparison with Bloodlust, of course some cards are better than others, see Darbomb vs. Wrath/Frostbolt or Fireball vs. Mortal Strike. That is nothing new.
And for the power level: all classes need something good to do. I find Druid perfectly balanced atm. What else is Druid? Play Taunts every turn and hope to get Innervate or Wild Growth to start playing them a turn earlier?
Should a class really have to rely on 2 cards otherwise it doesn't function at all though?
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On April 15 2015 05:36 meijin wrote:
the assumption that druid and shaman will have the same average number of creatures on the board is massively skewing your analysis. druid having 3.5 creatures on average is just completely laughable.
Yeah, in order to have 3.5 minions on average when casting Savage Roar, Druid would need to have a spell that summoned three treants with Charge or something like it... wait...
On April 15 2015 07:14 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 06:13 Jacenoob wrote:
For the comparison with Bloodlust, of course some cards are better than others, see Darbomb vs. Wrath/Frostbolt or Fireball vs. Mortal Strike. That is nothing new.
And for the power level: all classes need something good to do. I find Druid perfectly balanced atm. What else is Druid? Play Taunts every turn and hope to get Innervate or Wild Growth to start playing them a turn earlier? Should a class really have to rely on 2 cards otherwise it doesn't function at all though?
This is a very fair point. Druid doesn't have the tools to play aggro (like the Paladin's Divine Favor, the Mage's Fireball, the Hunter's Hero Power + Kill Command, etc.), and as a midrange / control deck has notoriously poor removal tools. Ramp druid with lots of taunts can work, but overall Druid is very reliant on its combo. I'd like to see Druids with removal that's a bit better than Starfall, Bite, Starfire and Recycle (Swipe is good, of course, but it's not enough on its own).
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On April 15 2015 07:15 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 05:36 meijin wrote:
the assumption that druid and shaman will have the same average number of creatures on the board is massively skewing your analysis. druid having 3.5 creatures on average is just completely laughable. Yeah, in order to have 3.5 minions on average when casting Savage Roar, Druid would need to have a spell that summoned three treants with Charge or something like it... wait...
Did you even read the OP?
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I agree with the statement, that - with emperor thaurissan now in the game - the classic combo has become too strong.
The classic 14 Dmg FON savage roar combo is already borderline broken (50% execute that only gets better if theres anything on the board) - Druid does however lack boardclears and other things (making it something you can play around)
While getting double savage roared for 22 Damage, was a once in a blue moon kind of thing before - as it required the druid to still have innervate AND 3 pieces of the combo in hand - which meant the game before was probably already bad for him.
Now with emperor, it actually happens quite frequently.
In my opinion, changing it to 4 mana - would still leave it potent - just one turn later than before - similar to pyroblast) and harder to combo with double savage.
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Druid's combo is only 2 damage higher then many other classes 2 card finishing combo's (fireball+fireball, Al'Akir+rockbiter, Grom+taskmaster) and as a class compensates by having bad direct removal and having both cards not be particularly great on their own, 6 mana is a lot for 6 damage and you need board control to be able to use Savage Roar to any effect.
Stop calling everything OP because it's strong, all classes have strong cards and in this case they are heavily dependant on synergy to get any value, and because of the expansion the meta is probably going to change a lot anyway, the combo might not be so intimidating when you have to deal with a turn 4 lumberer.
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It seems to be a fairly solid design point that Thaurissan has fundamentally fucked some things up. I don't believe this is a problem with ForceRoar as the Shaman hero power synergizes with Bloodlust which could be used as an argument for why it costs 2 more rather than 1. Is it a problem that in order for Druid to have a win condition it must run FR combo? Possibly- but it has zero other ways to finish a game realistically. Looking at other possible combos that classes can run, FR doesn't seem so absurd in and of itself- the design of the Druid could be called into question as stated previous simply because there really isn't another reliable way to play Druid unfortunately.
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On April 15 2015 12:51 Scootaloo wrote:
Druid's combo is only 2 damage higher then many other classes 2 card finishing combo's (fireball+fireball, Al'Akir+rockbiter, Grom+taskmaster) and as a class compensates by having bad direct removal and having both cards not be particularly great on their own, 6 mana is a lot for 6 damage and you need board control to be able to use Savage Roar to any effect.
Stop calling everything OP because it's strong, all classes have strong cards and in this case they are heavily dependant on synergy to get any value, and because of the expansion the meta is probably going to change a lot anyway, the combo might not be so intimidating when you have to deal with a turn 4 lumberer.
Assembling the Druid combo (one FoN and one Savage Roar) is easier than assembling all the other combos you mentioned- Warriors have only one Grom, Shamans have only one Al'akir, and getting both of your fireballs by turn 8-9 is less likely than getting one FoN and one Savage Roar by then (assuming Druid runs double combo, which most do nowadays).
Then there's the fact you yourself just mentioned: the Druid's combo deals more damage. 2 extra points of burst damage is significant in Hearthstone.
Finally, the Druid's combo damage pulls ahead even further from the competition if you manage to have a single minion on the board when you play it, and from then, the more the better. This advantage is maximized when you have 4 minions on your board before you play the combo, in which case your combo deals 22 damage plus the base attack values of the minions you had. I'm not being pedantic with this point; this can be very relevant vs. Control Warriors, who are normally very resilient to combo finishers.
Taken together, these advantages make Druid's combo stronger and more reliable than those of other classes- strong enough that I think it warrants a nerf.
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EPT
