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On August 05 2009 14:31 Jibba wrote:
What's your idea of rape? Where the woman is tossed aroundd or where she's simply held down and yelled at? Because the latter is basically every one I've seen. Sorry that I've upset your gaijin love affair.
I just don't want you misleading other people here.
It's not about a "gaijin love affair" because personally, I might like that kind of stuff more
>_>
<_<
>_>
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I really don't think because SOME Japanese watch simulated rape movies that the global population is rapist.
Also, even if people watch these movies, are they going to rape someone ? Com'on, I'm sure you don't think because kids play Violent Video Games they are actually going to kill everyone, right ?
I live in Japan and for me, the taboo about Sex in the West related to religion.
And the vending machines thing, com'on, it's over-exposed, over-cliché.
Finally,
It depends on how you want to categorize rape. The wimpering thing is common place, like HT said, and not related to violence. The amount of forced/fondled stuff is pretty high, even if it's not as extreme as the stuff where they pretend to hit girls.
I have to add that violence here is totally different. Back in the US, films like Die Hard are very violent but we don't really care because when John kills 4567343445 random peons, they are just random peons. So even if it's very violent, the spectators don't really feel it/aware/understand.
In Japan, violence has always a purpose, a background. If someone get killed, he is not a random peon but a person and we generally know a lot about him.
And it's exactly the same in Porn movies. When I watch US porn, it's kinda Gonzo : she's hot, she's been fucked. We are not shocked because it's just porn, not reality, right ?
Japanese porn is showing the backstage. It's more "realistic" or more "focusing" on the background.
Japanese porn isn't so demonstrative.
But which porn is the best ?
And which violence is more dangerous ?
The one we see but we don't care/aware or the one we feel/understand ?
Tbh, I can't tell.
EDIT : epic typo
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Joy can be found in both 2D and 3D forms. I'm suprised there's so many judgemental people looking down on this stuff. I'm sure many of you experienced someone laughing at the thought of eSports. You should know what it feels like for someone to lose respect for you just because you're passionate about something not accepted in the mainstream.
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I consider myself to be an otaku, and the girl I like considers herself to be an otaku. So what? =)
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On August 05 2009 14:39 Stripe wrote:
Joy can be found in both 2D and 3D forms. I'm suprised there's so many judgemental people looking down on this stuff. I'm sure many of you experienced someone laughing at the thought of eSports. You should know what it feels like for someone to lose respect for you just because you're passionate about something not accepted in the mainstream.
But but... part of being deeply into something non-mainstream is desperately trying to make yourself feel better about that fact, right? =p
Seriously though, you are 100% on target.
Also, rock on, MK. Well reasoned thoughts instead of mindless "lol Japan is weird" exaggerations.
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Oh cool, The NYTimes wrote an article about this sort of thing.
There probably won't be anything in the article I don't already know, but I'll be interesting to see their take on this.
Also "can one love a 2D character" is actually part of a larger question...
WHAT IS LOVE? BABY DON'T HURT ME. DON'T HURT ME, NO MORE.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 05 2009 14:39 MK wrote:
I really don't think because SOME Japanese watch simulated rape movies that the global population is rapist.
Also, even if people watch these movies, are they going to rape someone ? Com'on, I'm sure you don't think because kids play Violent Video Games they are actually going to kill everyone, right ?
I live in Japan and for me, the taboo about Sex in the West related to religion. This has little to do with religion. The argument isn't that the sad loser is going to go rape someone, it's that he's a sad loser because he's been brought up in a culture that devalues women and thus he doesn't know how to act around one that can think for herself, so he chooses a companion that can't think for itself. Every country has wierdos, the point of the article is that there's a growing number of Japanese men like that.
If you want to discuss the devaluing part, we can go well beyond porn into fashion, film, literature, etc. Do those all happen in the West? Yes. To nearly the same extent? Nononononononono. Porn has a very specific audience and purpose, so it was a shitty example on my part and yes, I was clearly exaggerating 99%. Many other parts of Japanese culture, however, show similar characteristics. Trashy romance novels are nothing compared to Tanizaki and there's plenty of other examples of classic film and literature that go in the same direction. The amount of incest literature that came out of the 70s is astounding. They're popular themes that sell, and so they indicate something about the greater culture.
Could you similarly ascertain that American culture is violent because of the movies/books/games we play? Yes, it's a very aggressive culture. Just look at our favorite sport.
Do these things translate into crime? Who knows. But I do think there's a social problem when there's a growing number of pariahs and your population is shrinking. If you're living there, as long as you're not one of them, it should be a good thing for you.
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On August 05 2009 14:39 MK wrote:
Japanese porn is showing the backstage. It's more "realistic" or more "focusing" on the background.
And yet the characters are still two dimensional (except in the literal sense as well).
Jibba:
While your critiques of Japanese culture certainly have merit, you probably won't get anywhere arguing with someone who lives in Japan.
Also I hope no one in this thread intends to say that one culture is superior or inferior to another, because that sort of thing is impossible to quantify.
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Okay, okay, I could let the whole thing slide, as fucking weird as it is
But these characters represent 12 year old girls. I don't care if they're not raping real little girls, these guys are fucking creepers. They could at least be obsessing over fictional characters who are ADULTS. Seriously, what the fuck man. These pseudo pedophiles for the most part deserve all the ridiculing they receive.
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On August 05 2009 15:18 Ronald_McD wrote:
But these characters represent 12 year old girls.
Not necessarily. The case study in the article had a dakimakura with a 12 year old character on it, but people have probably fallen in "love" with older characters.
However judging from pictures like this (no nudity, but young anime girls in risque clothing), I'd say that younger characters are probably more popular.
EDIT: I'm pretty sure that the Times got the section about moe wrong, but I can't be certain because I'm not entirely sure what moe is.
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On August 05 2009 15:18 Ronald_McD wrote:
Okay, okay, I could let the whole thing slide, as fucking weird as it is
But these characters represent 12 year old girls. I don't care if they're not raping real little girls, these guys are fucking creepers. They could at least be obsessing over fictional characters who are ADULTS. Seriously, what the fuck man. These pseudo pedophiles for the most part deserve all the ridiculing they receive.
Who are you to give such judgments upon people. Do you think ridiculing pseudo pedophiles is going to help society in any way?
besides that, i don't think these girls look anything like a normal 12 year old girl, they are anime characters that's all. Hardly counts as pedophilia imo
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i found this to be alot more shocking:
According to a government survey, more than a quarter of men and women between the ages of 30 and 34 are virgins; 50 percent of men and women in Japan do not have friends of the opposite sex.
WOW
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This isn't even news-worthy =_=
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scwizard :
I live in Japan but my dad is US, i was born in China and I studied in UK and in France.
The thing is people know a little about the Japanese culture and in general, what people takes for "Japanese Culture" (weird) is just some big clichés they've seen on some blogs/forum/4c/animes.
Many people, for example, think that in Japan, families eat on the floor, that japanese women are slaves, that every Japanese are dressed Cosplay, that every men in Japan are lolicon etc.
Well, it's not true.
So may I just ask you : what do you know about Japan ? I'm not only talking about Akiba or even Tokyo, but, Japan.
It's like saying every American are nerds and nolife because they are nerds and nolife in "the big bang theory" TV show (great show actually).
PS : just for your information, lolicon is not the biggest porn market in Japan.
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Oh I don't know anything about Japan. I've never looked into the subject.
I hear the people are really polite though.
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On August 05 2009 15:41 scwizard wrote:
Oh I don't know anything about Japan. I've never looked into the subject.
I hear the people are really polite though.
good to hear.
(sometimes they are over-polite and, tbh, I don't like it either ahah)
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United States22883 Posts
On August 05 2009 15:39 MK wrote:
Many people, for example, think that in Japan, families eat on the floor, that japanese women are slaves, that every Japanese are dressed Cosplay, that every men in Japan are lolicon etc.
Well, it's not true.
How about that people regularly eat sushi? I have never eaten a piece of sushi there and I don't think any of my relatives even bother to make it, except maybe for New Years.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
how often do japanese people eat sushi anyway
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Uh... yes... I eat more Sushi back to the US than here in Tokyo and so what ?... I don't get your point.
If you are saying that people are blinded by clichés about Japan, it's exactly what I'm saying so we are on the same side... /:
And for me, lolicon-rape-porn is also a cliché.
Edit : depends on the Sushi and the place you eat it. Generally, it's for special occasions. But you can have quite cheap sushi in some random Sushi bars around Shinjuku. But Japanese are definitely not eating Sushi every days and night.
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EPT
