• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:08
CEST 16:08
KST 23:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End6Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7
Community News
GSTL Returns in 2026!43Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-611
StarCraft 2
General
GSTL Returns in 2026! Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) SC4ALL: II Talent Announcement! Protoss AoE skill expression Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) WardiTV Mondays 2026 KungFu Cup Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Announcement
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome Mutation # 538 Media Blackout Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory
Brood War
General
Rush's Odyssey Controversy [ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End BW General Discussion StarCraft 64 is coming to Philly at SC4ALL II Best Games Kespa era
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [ASL22] Ro24 Group A CSLAN 4 is Coming! ASL Season 22 LIVESTREAM with English Commentary
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Artificial Intelligence Thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Letting Off Steam Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently...
Sports
MLB/Baseball 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Chinese Gen Z: Between Dream…
TrAiDoS
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8822 users

Anti-Smoking Conspiracy?

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-10-06 05:37:14
October 06 2007 05:31 GMT
#1
http://www.pushhamburger.com/smoking1.htm
+ Show Spoiler +
By Mike Wendling

A study about to be published in this week's British Medical Journal indicates that second-hand smoke doesn't increase the risk of heart disease or lung cancer, but the publication and the study's authors have come under attack by anti-smoking groups.

Two American researchers analyzed data from an American Cancer Society survey that followed more than 118,000 Californians from 1960 until 1998.

James E. Enstrom, of the University of California at Los Angeles and Geoffrey C. Kabat of the State University of New York at Stony Brook concluded that "the results do not support a causal relation between environmental tobacco smoke (second-hand smoke) and tobacco related mortality, although they do not rule out a small effect."

"The association between exposure to environmental tobacco smoke and coronary heart disease and lung cancer may be considerably weaker than generally believed," the researchers wrote.

The study was roundly condemned by anti-smoking groups including the American Cancer Society and even by the British Medical Journal's parent organization, the British Medical Association. They said the researchers received money from the tobacco industry, a statement that was confirmed by the journal Friday.

The American Cancer Society (ACS) pointed out what it called several flaws in the research. The researchers based their study on a small subset of the original data, the ACS said, and because of the greater prevalence of smokers in the 60s and 70s, "virtually everyone was exposed to environmental tobacco smoke."

Smoking opponents also pointed out in the original study, although the health of the subjects were monitored until 1998, no information on smoking habits was collected after 1972.

"We are appalled that the tobacco industry has succeeded in giving visibility to a study with so many problems," Michael J. Thun, ACS national vice president of epidemiology and surveillance research, said in a statement.

"The American Cancer Society welcomes thoughtful, independent peer review of our data. But this study is neither reliable nor independent," Thun said.

Other studies have indicated that inhaling second-hand smoke on a regular basis increases the risk of heart disease by about 30 percent. But as the researchers pointed out in their BMJ article, exposure to second-hand smoke is difficult to measure and such studies necessarily rely on self-reported data that may or may not be accurate.

Figures are skewed, researchers said, by former smokers who are wrongly classified.

"The relation between tobacco-related diseases and environmental tobacco smoke may be influenced by misclassification of some smokers as never smokers," the researchers wrote.

However, several British groups agreed with the ACS assessment of the study. The British Medical Association said that 1,000 people die every year in the U.K. as a result of passive smoking.

"There is overwhelming evidence, built up over decades, that passive smoking causes lung cancer and heart disease, as well as triggering asthma attacks," said Vivienne Nathanson, BMA's head of science and ethics. "In children, passive smoking increases the risk of pneumonia, bronchitis, and reduces lung growth, as well as both causing and worsening asthma."

A spokesman for Action on Smoking and Health said: "We are utterly surprised as to why the BMJ has published this. It's nothing but a lobbying tool."

"This is just one study," the spokesman said. "It will do nothing to change the massive body of evidence that has built up over the years."

The journal stood by its decision to publish research but editors turned down interview requests Friday. A spokeswoman said decisions on publication were made only after "careful consideration and peer review."

The study, which was available online and will be published in the BMJ on Saturday, was partially funded by money from the tobacco industry, the spokeswoman said, but could not provide further details.

Groups campaigning against further tobacco regulations in Britain welcomed the research. Smokers' lobby group FOREST said the "jury is still out" on the effects of second-hand smoke.

"This is typical of the anti-smoking lobby's bullying tactics," said FOREST director Simon Clark. "They attack not just the authors but the messenger ... the BMJ is one of the most respected journals in the world."

Attacks on the study in the U.K. have been led by proponents of a total ban on smoking in public places like pubs, clubs and restaurants, a position that Clark said was undermined by the study.

"People who want to ban smoking in public places use passive smoking as their number one argument," he said. "That's why this study is so significant."




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Calment - oldest woman ever

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigechiyo_Izumi - oldest man ever

She was also a smoker and only quit when she was 117 years old. [1] Her fondness for sweets, like chocolate, also continued until the age of 119. She was the last recognized surviving person of the 1870s.




His wife died at the age of 90. He drank shōchū (a Japanese alcoholic beverage distilled from barley), and took up smoking at age 70.



Read this: http://www.smokingaloud.com/ (and all the links within)
http://www.smokingaloud.com/sitemap.html

Very interesting. I have heard that they plan to ban smoking in public ANYWHERE (California) recently. It is totally not going to pass but wtf? They also tried to raise the tax on tobacco products by like 30%~ or so last election/season.

What would be the reasoning for all this anti-smoking stuff if it wasn't all true?
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
il0seonpurpose
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Korea (South)5638 Posts
October 06 2007 05:40 GMT
#2
All the reasoning is because

a. It stinks
b. Bad for environment (I think)
c. Bad for your body (not like cancer stuff, but like your breath smells bad, yellow teeth)
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-10-06 05:42:09
October 06 2007 05:41 GMT
#3
Yea, but even if those were (and probably are) true what do politicians/corporations/FDA/etc stand to gain from all this and how?
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
October 06 2007 05:44 GMT
#4
Here is another conspiracist's myspace http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=90832120
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
MiniRoman
Profile Blog Joined September 2003
Canada3953 Posts
October 06 2007 06:03 GMT
#5
Honestly, I hate old people.

Biography
Born in Arles, France, to a well-to-do family, her close family members also lived to an advanced age: her brother, François, lived to the age of 97, her father, Nicolas, 93, and her mother, Marguerite, 86. In 1896, she married her second cousin (grandson of her great-uncle) Fernand Calment, a wealthy storeowner. His wealth made it possible for Calment never to have to work: instead she led a relaxed lifestyle, pursuing hobbies like tennis, cycling, swimming, rollerskating, piano, and opera. Her husband died in 1942, after he ate a dessert prepared with spoiled cherries. Calment's longevity was not shared by her offspring. Her only daughter, Yvonne, died at age 36 in 1934 from pneumonia. As a result, the task of bringing up her grandson Frédéric fell on her shoulders. He became a doctor, but died in 1963 in a motorcycle accident. In 1965, aged 90, with no living heirs, Jeanne Calment signed a deal, common in France, to sell her condominium apartment en viager to lawyer François Raffray. Raffray, then aged 47, agreed to pay a monthly sum until she died, an agreement sometimes called a "reverse mortgage". At the time of the deal the value of the apartment was equal to ten years of payments. Unfortunately for Raffray, not only did Calment survive for more than thirty more years, but Raffray died of cancer in December 1995, at the age of 77, leaving his widow to continue the payments for two years.


This chick is the devil and she happens to be the oldest person ever. !_! I hate old people.
Nak Allstar.
NoName
Profile Joined October 2002
United States1558 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-10-06 06:23:35
October 06 2007 06:15 GMT
#6
you get used to the stink like any other smell (i worked in the family coffee shop that sold cigarettes when I was in highdchool.) people are so sensitive and allergic to everything now-days because we live in such an antiseptic environment. Some of my friends in college where pretty heavy smokers -- though they've since mostly quit. Nice and very hardworking guys.

What if they cure cancer? They are getting closer and doing better every year. Will the war on tobacco and smokers continue? most likely

ETA I've never smoked, but I support the right to smoke without feeling threatened or ashamed of doing so. Education is fine. Banning ads and vending machines, ok, banning it in all public indoors, ummm... ok. I think things have gone far enough.
Wam-bam-ba-boom! Bada-bing!
FirstProbe
Profile Joined June 2004
1206 Posts
October 06 2007 06:19 GMT
#7
On October 06 2007 15:15 NoName wrote:
you get used to the stink like any other smell (i worked in the family coffee shop that sold cigarettes when I was in highdchool.) people are so sensitive and allergic to everything now-days because we live in such an antiseptic environment. Some of my friends in college where pretty heavy smokers -- though they've since mostly quit. Nice and very hardworking guys.

What if they cure cancer? They are getting closer and doing better every year. Will the war on tobacco and smokers continue? most likely


They are no where near curing cancer...
NoName
Profile Joined October 2002
United States1558 Posts
October 06 2007 06:28 GMT
#8
On October 06 2007 15:19 FirstProbe wrote:

They are no where near curing cancer...


Maybe we aren.t, maybe we are.



Cancer cure 'may be available in two years'

By Nic Fleming Science Correspondent
Last Updated: 3:56am BST 21/09/2007

Cancer sufferers could be cured with injections of immune cells from other people within two years, scientists say.

US researchers have been given the go-ahead to give patients transfusions of “super strength” cancer-killing cells from donors.

How the treatment might work

Dr Zheng Cui, of the Wake Forest University School of Medicine, has shown in laboratory experiments that immune cells from some people can be almost 50 times more effective in fighting cancer than in others.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/19/ncancer219.xml
Wam-bam-ba-boom! Bada-bing!
0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4635 Posts
October 06 2007 06:39 GMT
#9
Yay there is a conspiracy! Yay! You discovered it, well wait. You managed to discovered the most non-secret health project for the humanity by yourself, you are a good boy, Charly!

It's all lead by the evil guys working in the U.N. but it seems to be working like Al Quaeda, they have non connected actors that will act in the name of the U.N. so actually its a terrorist conspiracy
Dump of assembler code from 0xffffffec to 0x64: End of assembler dump.
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-10-06 06:41:58
October 06 2007 06:40 GMT
#10
Considering the fat tax money the government makes from cigarette sales I really doubt they're plotting the industry's demise

Many activist groups blow things out of proportion because they feel they're doing right by the world.
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
October 06 2007 06:44 GMT
#11
On October 06 2007 15:15 NoName wrote:
ok, banning it in all public indoors, ummm... ok. I think things have gone far enough.

uh
why not?
why should people have to put up with the smoke and potential health risks because of other peoples dirty habit?
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
NoName
Profile Joined October 2002
United States1558 Posts
October 06 2007 07:07 GMT
#12
On October 06 2007 15:44 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 06 2007 15:15 NoName wrote:
ok, banning it in all public indoors, ummm... ok. I think things have gone far enough.

uh
why not?
why should people have to put up with the smoke and potential health risks because of other peoples dirty habit?


because that's life. some people don't wash after wiping. some on public transportation or go to class or work sick with flu. we eat processed food is made with all sorts of artificial chemicals.

A little smoke in an outdoor space is nothing. I smelled far worse from trucks, BBQs, paint thinner, my sharpie.
Wam-bam-ba-boom! Bada-bing!
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32281 Posts
October 06 2007 07:11 GMT
#13
On October 06 2007 15:40 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Considering the fat tax money the government makes from cigarette sales I really doubt they're plotting the industry's demise

Many activist groups blow things out of proportion because they feel they're doing right by the world.


Well smoking generates illness which the goverment pays in one way or another (depending on the country and their policies of course).
Moderator<:3-/-<
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
October 06 2007 07:48 GMT
#14
On October 06 2007 16:07 NoName wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 06 2007 15:44 IdrA wrote:
On October 06 2007 15:15 NoName wrote:
ok, banning it in all public indoors, ummm... ok. I think things have gone far enough.

uh
why not?
why should people have to put up with the smoke and potential health risks because of other peoples dirty habit?


because that's life. some people don't wash after wiping. some on public transportation or go to class or work sick with flu. we eat processed food is made with all sorts of artificial chemicals.

A little smoke in an outdoor space is nothing. I smelled far worse from trucks, BBQs, paint thinner, my sharpie.

the fact that life will never be perfect doesnt mean we should shouldnt try to improve it.
its quite easy to ban smoking in public, and make life a little bit better for everyone(except the smoker). its not so easy to fix the other stuff you mentioned.

http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
404.Nintu
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Canada1723 Posts
October 06 2007 08:44 GMT
#15
Charlie, can you go 10 minutes without making a thread? =( No offense.
"So, then did the American yum-yum clown monkey also represent the FCC?"
SilenTLurker
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States250 Posts
October 06 2007 08:44 GMT
#16
What's the reasoning behind the government forcing restaurant and bar owners to not allow smoking in their property? I haven't heard it yet.
-I don't like infanticide. ~Why not? -Kids aren't good business, Remy.
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-10-06 10:51:36
October 06 2007 09:37 GMT
#17
On October 06 2007 17:44 Nintu wrote:
Charlie, can you go 10 minutes without making a thread? =( No offense.


I think I made 2 today, the other ones are old. I usually make about 1-2~ a week.

edit - I made 67 in the passed 16 days.
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
Vigilante
Profile Joined August 2007
United States130 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-10-06 09:58:07
October 06 2007 09:55 GMT
#18
What's the reasoning behind the government forcing restaurant and bar owners to not allow smoking in their property? I haven't heard it yet.


Because some people are fascist control-freaks who want to control other people's lives, even if they need to violate those people's property rights and restrict their freedoms in doing so. Why ban trans fats? Those arguably only hurt the person who is eating them, yet occasionally you hear of politicians attempting to ban these (I think some may actually have succeeded in certain localities or cities, though I'm not sure).

This reminds me of people who push for gun bans. A handful of people have an attitude like: "I can't see why anyone needs to own this or that, so lets ban it." Some people don't seem to understand that some people might have wants or desires that differ from what they consider normal or acceptable, so for some reason they seek to control these people and discourage them from engaging in such activities. Another example of this is laws against gay sex. For real, who cares, provided it is consensual? I certainly don't.

EDIT: Something I'd like to add, this type of behavior seems natural to some extent. I remember when I was going to school how occasionally groups of kids would tease, pick on, or in general just make life miserable for some kids, more or less just because they are different in some ways from other people. Some people are just intolerant it seems.
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves." ~Abraham Lincoln
CuddlyCuteKitten
Profile Joined January 2004
Sweden2867 Posts
October 06 2007 10:00 GMT
#19
On October 06 2007 15:15 NoName wrote:
you get used to the stink like any other smell (i worked in the family coffee shop that sold cigarettes when I was in highdchool.) people are so sensitive and allergic to everything now-days because we live in such an antiseptic environment. Some of my friends in college where pretty heavy smokers -- though they've since mostly quit. Nice and very hardworking guys.

What if they cure cancer? They are getting closer and doing better every year. Will the war on tobacco and smokers continue? most likely

ETA I've never smoked, but I support the right to smoke without feeling threatened or ashamed of doing so. Education is fine. Banning ads and vending machines, ok, banning it in all public indoors, ummm... ok. I think things have gone far enough.


If you knew how cancer worked you'd understand that we are not even close to finding a "cure for cancer". Smoking is also one of the biggest (if not the biggest) risk factor for different kinds of disease, many of them systemic.
It just sucks and then it fucks up the enviroment for everyone around the smoker because if you don't smooke yourself the smell is nasty.

Almost no one at my school smokes (like only a handfull among hundreds of people) because most people quit once they get to know what it does too you.
Unity, support, family, and kneecapping bitches.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
October 06 2007 10:04 GMT
#20
on the laws against gay sex, you're right
but smoking in public and gun contro,l no. smoking in public and owning guns affects other people, meaning its a judgement call as to whether or not my right to not breath in smoke is more important than your right to get cancer. gun control is similar, availability of guns is a risk to society, however since guns are already out there you can make the argument that theyre needed for self defense from... the other people who have guns. again a judgement call.
its not just the 'fascist control-freaks' waving their dicks around.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Weekly
11:00
WardiTV Mondays #100
IntoTheiNu 1190
WardiTV977
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
TKL 212
Rex 150
BRAT_OK 70
SHIN 27
RushiSC 12
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 7752
Mini 1466
BeSt 892
Shuttle 880
EffOrt 806
Soulkey 728
Soma 426
Stork 403
Larva 195
ggaemo 176
[ Show more ]
Mong 154
Snow 139
ZerO 113
Hyun 96
Pusan 92
Mind 70
sSak 50
Sexy 49
Bale 33
sorry 19
zelot 19
Terrorterran 13
Noble 10
Icarus 9
Dota 2
Gorgc8760
Dendi2498
qojqva1657
BananaSlamJamma375
Counter-Strike
markeloff128
Other Games
singsing2323
hiko738
B2W.Neo523
Lowko418
crisheroes334
Liquid`VortiX206
Hui .167
RotterdaM101
QueenE63
Mew2King58
Livibee45
ArmadaUGS35
amsayoshi30
ZerO(Twitch)18
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV840
League of Legends
• Jankos725
• TFBlade703
Upcoming Events
The Patches Monday
1h 52m
Afreeca Starleague
19h 52m
Sharp vs Shinee
Action vs Shine
GSL
20h 52m
PiGosaur Cup
1d 9h
Replay Cast
1d 18h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 19h
BeSt vs Paralyze
Jaedong vs Speed
Kung Fu Cup
1d 20h
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
KCM Race Survival
2 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
PiG Sty Festival
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
PiG Sty Festival
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
PiG Sty Festival
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLAN 4
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
RSL Revival: Season 6
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
META DYMY #4
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

CSL Season 22: Qualifier 1
Escore Tournament S3: W8
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.