EPTOn April 09 2022 10:37 WombaT wrote:
Best case Ukraine by and large isn’t latently Nazi, worst case let’s say they are.
Best case Ukraine by and large isn’t latently Nazi, worst case let’s say they are.
The only case there is, it isn't.
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 83
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
The only case there is, it isn't. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On April 09 2022 10:39 Manit0u wrote: People believe all sorts of stupid shit even in countries that are not as hard on propaganda as Russia or with better access to knowledge and information. I guess you give people too much credit (especially considering that quite a big chunk of human population is under 83 IQ if the numbers mean anything to you). I know. I have somewhat followed the US and EU economics threads as well, and what certain people write there is just absurd, like they have no understanding of outside world at all. It's kinda sad, as those people actually seem to have internet and CAN be receptive to the information there is. I guess my stand is don't believe stupid shit, in total. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26503 Posts
Well from what I’ve read and understood this is not the case. My point being even if it hypothetical weren’t, would that give Russia carte blanche to do what it’s doing? Even if I concede the worst possible interpretation of Ukrainian political sentiment, which I don’t anyway, I still don’t think it’s a good argument over leaving them to their fate. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On April 09 2022 11:01 WombaT wrote: Well from what I’ve read and understood this is not the case. My point being even if it hypothetical weren’t, would that give Russia carte blanche to do what it’s doing? Even if I concede the worst possible interpretation of Ukrainian political sentiment, which I don’t anyway, I still don’t think it’s a good argument over leaving them to their fate. I don't know, are you alike arguing there is in any way any chance Russia is right on their nazi accusations? Or what are you trying to say, because i don't really get it. | ||
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[JXSA].Zergling
China186 Posts
Should Europe and the United States stop trade with China? The world economy is going to collapse. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23799 Posts
On April 09 2022 10:37 WombaT wrote: What do we do with that information? Best case Ukraine by and large isn’t latently Nazi, worst case let’s say they are. In either scenario is Russia’s conduct acceptable? Should Ukraine be left without aid( I usually agree with your points but, not really sure what you’re angling for here. Be reasonably confident the West won't pull support because neo-nazi Ukrainian forces commit war crimes. For example the US Congress tried to prohibit arming and training neo-nazis in Ukraine in 2015 after reports about their war crimes in 2014 but removed the prohibition under pressure from the pentagon. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15742 Posts
On April 09 2022 11:38 GreenHorizons wrote: Be reasonably confident the West won't pull support because neo-nazi Ukrainian forces commit war crimes. For example the US Congress tried to prohibit arming and training neo-nazis in Ukraine in 2015 after reports about their war crimes in 2014 but removed the prohibition under pressure from the pentagon. Rather than make these vague assertions of Ukraine being nazis, can you be clear about to what extent you think Nazi philosophy is integrated in ukraine military, government or citizens? What are you saying is the extent of it? The US has a lot of white nationalists in the police but we are clearly not a nazi state. What are you actually saying here? Everything you’ve said feels like a unique mix of gas lighting and whataboutism. It honestly feels totally nuts that after Russia marches a bunch of tanks across a border, you are somehow able to bring yourself to justify it in some way. Its like you have conditioned yourself to be so adamantly against the west in all situations that you can't even watch Russia bomb hospitals without saying "yeah but". | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On April 09 2022 11:44 Mohdoo wrote: It honestly feels totally nuts that after Russia marches a bunch of tanks across a border, you are somehow able to bring yourself to justify it in some way. Its like you have conditioned yourself to be so adamantly against the west in all situations that you can't even watch Russia bomb hospitals without saying "yeah but". Most of people were tbh, when it started. Or at least noone said anything. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14104 Posts
Meanwhile Russia is committing more war crimes and more explicitly fascist acts of cleansing than we've seen in decades. They don't just have nazis in their army they have Islamic warlord flavor and Serbian flavor war crimes. The us can be accused of negligence and not doing enough to prevent war crimes but the Russians are planning these things out and then going even further. | ||
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plated.rawr
Norway1676 Posts
Giving time and thought to nazis in Ukraine while Russia is invading them is like worrying about the embers in your stove while the roof of your house is on fire. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4746 Posts
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Mirelle
Russian Federation20 Posts
I'm absolutely not offended; it's the least possible accusation for us now. But still, it is not about trust to Putin (again, his support was moderate recent years, and it was steadily falling) - it is about a system with millions of people involved (just the headquarter of FSB (secret police\intelligence service) is officially about 110 thousand people). They rule 99% of the media - even the "liberal" ones: there are lots of people who are liberal at surface, but on the key occasions they suddenly take a pro-government position (for example, chief editor of one of the largest liberal newsite "Echo Moskvy" was the key proponent of the distant elections system, which allowed massive falsifications in 2021 parliament elections); employ thousands of people, who write comments in social media etc. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28781 Posts
On April 09 2022 11:44 Mohdoo wrote: Rather than make these vague assertions of Ukraine being nazis, can you be clear about to what extent you think Nazi philosophy is integrated in ukraine military, government or citizens? What are you saying is the extent of it? The US has a lot of white nationalists in the police but we are clearly not a nazi state. What are you actually saying here? Everything you’ve said feels like a unique mix of gas lighting and whataboutism. It honestly feels totally nuts that after Russia marches a bunch of tanks across a border, you are somehow able to bring yourself to justify it in some way. Its like you have conditioned yourself to be so adamantly against the west in all situations that you can't even watch Russia bomb hospitals without saying "yeah but". How do you read his post as a justification of the invasion? He's literally saying that the take-away from the knowledge that there are Nazis fighting for Ukraine is that it won't affect western funding of them. There's no conflict between 'Russia is an evil imperialist power and we must give support to the countries invaded by them /discourage Russia from being imperialist' and 'the US has a history of being an evil imperialist power and we must recognize this/fight this trait of the US, because our current, well justified opposition to Russia will be entirely meaningless/hypocritical if we support the next imperialist adventure the US decides to engage on'. The far left in Norway largely seem to combine these two attitudes, and I think it's entirely coherent. Now, that the amount of Nazis in Ukraine seems overblown is valid criticism of the point. To me, as a fairly far leftist dude, there's also no question that we must support Ukraine with all sorts of weaponry, because there can be found no justification for Russia's actions. However, there is also history between the US and Russia (Soviet) that should inspire a certain degree of sobriety with regards to our actions. Especially the conflict in Afghanistan - where the US wanted it to turn into a quagmire and where their partners in the conflict ended up backfiring severely at a later point in time. Again - there's no question that Russia is the bad actor in this conflict, but there's also history that justify asking some questions like 'what'll happen to the weapons after the conflict' 'are we sure the US hasn't been antagonizing as there might be some involved parties who see it as beneficial to US interests'. To me - none of the answers to these questions seem to alter what I perceive as the correct course of action (full support of Ukraine short of escalating into potential nuclear war), but asking these questions also does automatically translate into some type of hidden tucker carlson 'I'm just asking questions' bigotry. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18250 Posts
On April 09 2022 15:52 plated.rawr wrote: I find it laughable that the russian nazi excuse is even being given time and thought. Nothing allows the armed forces of a state to cross the borders of another state uninvited. No justification made by Russia will legitimize their presence. Giving time and thought to nazis in Ukraine while Russia is invading them is like worrying about the embers in your stove while the roof of your house is on fire. Was the allied invasion of Germany at the end of WW2 justified? According to what you just said, the Allied forces should have stopped at the (numerous) borders and defended there, and invading Germany in order to catch Hitler and the other Nazis in charge was wrong. Similarly, I don't think the (initial) US invasion in Afghanistan was wrong. That was a clearly awful regime and they were willingly giving safe harbor to terrorist cells threatening attacks on the US. Obviously that one blew up in our faces, but the initial idea was not unethical. The main reason the Russian invasion is unethical isn't because there is *never* a justification, but because the justification the Russians gave is (1) obvious fiction and (2) nowhere near an actual justification if it actually were true (which again, it isn't). The Russians' behavior in Ukraine just makes the justification even more ridiculous. You can't invade because you're "afraid they're bad people" and then do things a few orders of magnitude worse to them. Any claim of moral high ground evaporated the first time they intentionally targeted civilians, and then they slaughtered, raped and pillaged Bucha. E: and just to be clear, it would be bad enough if this behavior were limited to Bucha, but it appears to be a pattern, rather than an anomaly: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/09/after-russians-retreat-scarred-ukrainian-village-recounts-month-of-terror Brought to you by the forces that were supposed to liberate the poor Ukrainians from their Nazi overlords. | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria837 Posts
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has indications that Russia has started mobilizing some reservists and could be looking to recruit more than 60,000 personnel, a senior U.S. defense official said on Friday. The official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said it was not clear how successful Russia would be in that effort and where they would go. Source Also, it looks like Putin appointed Dvornikov to command Russian forces in Ukraine, so signs so far look like a prolonged war. Possibly some reorganisation, so phase 2. Russia is believed to have reorganised its military leadership in Ukraine, with Gen Alexander Dvornikov given overall charge Brief info about appointment: Source | ||
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Yurie
12078 Posts
On April 09 2022 18:10 SC-Shield wrote: If true, Russia is looking to recruit 60 000 reservists and this war may go on: Source Also, it looks like Putin appointed Dvornikov to command Russian forces in Ukraine, so signs so far look like a prolonged war. Possibly some reorganisation, so phase 2. Brief info about appointment: Source The interesting thing is that there has been discussions about Russia moving other army units to Ukraine. Pulling up reservists would be a logical way to replace those units in their original theatre. Still seems like a bad time to sign up in case the Ukraine war goes even worse and you still get sent into it. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17708 Posts
On April 09 2022 18:19 Yurie wrote: The interesting thing is that there has been discussions about Russia moving other army units to Ukraine. Pulling up reservists would be a logical way to replace those units in their original theatre. Still seems like a bad time to sign up in case the Ukraine war goes even worse and you still get sent into it. It's not a matter of choice though. Russia can draft reservists or even civilians. Most of their army comes from mandatory draft, not professional soldiers anyway (we had similar system in Poland, very few people actually signed up as professional soldiers, most came from the drafts - reluctantly at that, people usually want to avoid that - and left after they've served one mandatory year). With this in mind, you can see that Russia's forces mostly consist of 18-yo kids with barely any training, poor equipment and low morale. Also, smart people tend to avoid the draft (you could avoid it by going to the university etc.) so you end up mostly with a bunch of poor, uneducated kids with very few perspectives. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5773 Posts
On April 09 2022 11:44 Mohdoo wrote: Rather than make these vague assertions of Ukraine being nazis, can you be clear about to what extent you think Nazi philosophy is integrated in ukraine military, government or citizens? What are you saying is the extent of it? The US has a lot of white nationalists in the police but we are clearly not a nazi state. What are you actually saying here? Everything you’ve said feels like a unique mix of gas lighting and whataboutism. It honestly feels totally nuts that after Russia marches a bunch of tanks across a border, you are somehow able to bring yourself to justify it in some way. Its like you have conditioned yourself to be so adamantly against the west in all situations that you can't even watch Russia bomb hospitals without saying "yeah but". Nothing unique about it. He's just repeating the Kremlin talking points. But what would you expect? He's also defending the fascist regime in China because they pay lip service to his favoured ideology. | ||
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plated.rawr
Norway1676 Posts
On April 09 2022 17:43 Acrofales wrote: Was the allied invasion of Germany at the end of WW2 justified? According to what you just said, the Allied forces should have stopped at the (numerous) borders and defended there, and invading Germany in order to catch Hitler and the other Nazis in charge was wrong. Similarly, I don't think the (initial) US invasion in Afghanistan was wrong. That was a clearly awful regime and they were willingly giving safe harbor to terrorist cells threatening attacks on the US. Obviously that one blew up in our faces, but the initial idea was not unethical. The main reason the Russian invasion is unethical isn't because there is *never* a justification, but because the justification the Russians gave is (1) obvious fiction and (2) nowhere near an actual justification if it actually were true (which again, it isn't). The Russians' behavior in Ukraine just makes the justification even more ridiculous. You can't invade because you're "afraid they're bad people" and then do things a few orders of magnitude worse to them. Any claim of moral high ground evaporated the first time they intentionally targeted civilians, and then they slaughtered, raped and pillaged Bucha. E: and just to be clear, it would be bad enough if this behavior were limited to Bucha, but it appears to be a pattern, rather than an anomaly: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/09/after-russians-retreat-scarred-ukrainian-village-recounts-month-of-terror Brought to you by the forces that were supposed to liberate the poor Ukrainians from their Nazi overlords. I figured there'd be nitpicking when I made the post. If you want it more exact, let me add additional qualifiers: "Nothing morally allows the armed forces of a state to cross the borders of another functional, sovereign state uninvited during peace time." For your WW2 scenario with Nazi Germany, there was already a war going on. Nazi Germany was being pushed back, but had not capitulated. Likewise, I'd find it morally acceptable for Ukraine to move its army into Russia during the ongoing conflict, as even though it's not a part of defending their land, its a part to end the war by taking the war to the original initiator. I don't think it's realistic for Ukraine to military invade Russia as a part of this conflict of course, but I wouldn't be outraged if they sent forces there. Russia started this by rolling their troops over the border to Ukraine, and as thus, are an entirely legitimate target for return aggression in this situation. As for Afghanistan, it wasn't a very functioning country pre-war. That in itself is of course not reason to morally accept foreign militaries from doing what they want within the country's borders, but if a country's not capable of internal control or external diplomacy, then their legitimacy as a country is already in question. THAT STILL isnt reason for other nations to morally place troops there univited, of course, but it opens for international response for humanitarian reasons. That's not what the US did of course, and I'm still entirely against their intervention in Afghanistan, as I was when they first went in. Afghanistan, of course, being the proxy ground for the Russia US "war" for so long, is also rather different from the Ukraine Russia situation right now, or the Allied Forces Nazi Germany world war 2. Principally though, I'd say the same base moral applies - the US had no justification for placing troops there. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8024 Posts
On April 09 2022 17:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: How do you read his post as a justification of the invasion? He's literally saying that the take-away from the knowledge that there are Nazis fighting for Ukraine is that it won't affect western funding of them. There's no conflict between 'Russia is an evil imperialist power and we must give support to the countries invaded by them /discourage Russia from being imperialist' and 'the US has a history of being an evil imperialist power and we must recognize this/fight this trait of the US, because our current, well justified opposition to Russia will be entirely meaningless/hypocritical if we support the next imperialist adventure the US decides to engage on'. The far left in Norway largely seem to combine these two attitudes, and I think it's entirely coherent. Now, that the amount of Nazis in Ukraine seems overblown is valid criticism of the point. To me, as a fairly far leftist dude, there's also no question that we must support Ukraine with all sorts of weaponry, because there can be found no justification for Russia's actions. However, there is also history between the US and Russia (Soviet) that should inspire a certain degree of sobriety with regards to our actions. Especially the conflict in Afghanistan - where the US wanted it to turn into a quagmire and where their partners in the conflict ended up backfiring severely at a later point in time. Again - there's no question that Russia is the bad actor in this conflict, but there's also history that justify asking some questions like 'what'll happen to the weapons after the conflict' 'are we sure the US hasn't been antagonizing as there might be some involved parties who see it as beneficial to US interests'. To me - none of the answers to these questions seem to alter what I perceive as the correct course of action (full support of Ukraine short of escalating into potential nuclear war), but asking these questions also does automatically translate into some type of hidden tucker carlson 'I'm just asking questions' bigotry. There are « nazis » in most armies, starting with the russian army, but also the french army. The Legion Etrangère and the Parachutistes are full of people with extremely doubtful ideologies and the Group Wagner is led by an authentic neo nazi. The notion that the fact that there are extremists in the Ukrainian army is consequential in this conflict is grotesque. I know you always refuse to understand what GH positions imply and what he is really saying. I admire your « assume good faith » position but it makes you totally oblivious of the content of his interventions here. | ||
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