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On July 06 2025 03:24 Sent. wrote:
I think it's totally reasonable to talk with the US about buying more Patriots but if Trump cultists demand anything above the bare minimum it's probably better to just spend that money on whatever can be bought from non-American entities even if it's not as useful. I still believe the American """deep state""" understands it's better to support Ukraine but Trump cultists are a different beast.
We can't make Americans stay on the right side and paying extra money for their stuff is like signing up for a protection racket that certainly isn't going to end well for anyone else but them and of course Russians.
At this point if the prices aren't completely unreasonable (and they likely won't be because they want to sell weapons to us in general, not just for Ukraine) it's probably best to just buy the essential things and send them.
If we can buy the US output of anti air missiles, artillery shells and intel for a not completely unreasonable price that's a win. It's not going to be forever either way. Neither country can sustain this war indefinitely (unless China goes all in on supporting Russia I guess).
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I don't see China doing that, Russia considers them an enemy as well. They are just supporting each other the way the Soviets and Nazi's did until they fought each other.
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On July 06 2025 05:55 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2025 03:24 Sent. wrote:
I think it's totally reasonable to talk with the US about buying more Patriots but if Trump cultists demand anything above the bare minimum it's probably better to just spend that money on whatever can be bought from non-American entities even if it's not as useful. I still believe the American """deep state""" understands it's better to support Ukraine but Trump cultists are a different beast.
We can't make Americans stay on the right side and paying extra money for their stuff is like signing up for a protection racket that certainly isn't going to end well for anyone else but them and of course Russians. At this point if the prices aren't completely unreasonable (and they likely won't be because they want to sell weapons to us in general, not just for Ukraine) it's probably best to just buy the essential things and send them. If we can buy the US output of anti air missiles, artillery shells and intel for a not completely unreasonable price that's a win. It's not going to be forever either way. Neither country can sustain this war indefinitely (unless China goes all in on supporting Russia I guess).
I am not a fan of that. We should build up our own capacities if at all possible. Buying american stuff should be a stopgap at best. The US has shown that they cannot be trusted as an ally anymore, thus we should reduce any reliance on their stuff in the mid to long term.
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On July 06 2025 06:32 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2025 05:55 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On July 06 2025 03:24 Sent. wrote:
I think it's totally reasonable to talk with the US about buying more Patriots but if Trump cultists demand anything above the bare minimum it's probably better to just spend that money on whatever can be bought from non-American entities even if it's not as useful. I still believe the American """deep state""" understands it's better to support Ukraine but Trump cultists are a different beast.
We can't make Americans stay on the right side and paying extra money for their stuff is like signing up for a protection racket that certainly isn't going to end well for anyone else but them and of course Russians. At this point if the prices aren't completely unreasonable (and they likely won't be because they want to sell weapons to us in general, not just for Ukraine) it's probably best to just buy the essential things and send them. If we can buy the US output of anti air missiles, artillery shells and intel for a not completely unreasonable price that's a win. It's not going to be forever either way. Neither country can sustain this war indefinitely (unless China goes all in on supporting Russia I guess). I am not a fan of that. We should build up our own capacities if at all possible. Buying american stuff should be a stopgap at best. The US has shown that they cannot be trusted as an ally anymore, thus we should reduce any reliance on their stuff in the mid to long term. We should build up that capacity, but Ukraine can't wait the years that will take.
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On July 06 2025 06:55 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2025 06:32 Simberto wrote:On July 06 2025 05:55 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On July 06 2025 03:24 Sent. wrote:
I think it's totally reasonable to talk with the US about buying more Patriots but if Trump cultists demand anything above the bare minimum it's probably better to just spend that money on whatever can be bought from non-American entities even if it's not as useful. I still believe the American """deep state""" understands it's better to support Ukraine but Trump cultists are a different beast.
We can't make Americans stay on the right side and paying extra money for their stuff is like signing up for a protection racket that certainly isn't going to end well for anyone else but them and of course Russians. At this point if the prices aren't completely unreasonable (and they likely won't be because they want to sell weapons to us in general, not just for Ukraine) it's probably best to just buy the essential things and send them. If we can buy the US output of anti air missiles, artillery shells and intel for a not completely unreasonable price that's a win. It's not going to be forever either way. Neither country can sustain this war indefinitely (unless China goes all in on supporting Russia I guess). I am not a fan of that. We should build up our own capacities if at all possible. Buying american stuff should be a stopgap at best. The US has shown that they cannot be trusted as an ally anymore, thus we should reduce any reliance on their stuff in the mid to long term. We should build up that capacity, but Ukraine can't wait the years that will take.
The core problem i have is that it reinforces bad behaviour. If the US sees that we will just pay them for stuff if they don't do their part, why would they ever do their part again?
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On July 06 2025 06:58 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2025 06:55 Gorsameth wrote:On July 06 2025 06:32 Simberto wrote:On July 06 2025 05:55 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On July 06 2025 03:24 Sent. wrote:
I think it's totally reasonable to talk with the US about buying more Patriots but if Trump cultists demand anything above the bare minimum it's probably better to just spend that money on whatever can be bought from non-American entities even if it's not as useful. I still believe the American """deep state""" understands it's better to support Ukraine but Trump cultists are a different beast.
We can't make Americans stay on the right side and paying extra money for their stuff is like signing up for a protection racket that certainly isn't going to end well for anyone else but them and of course Russians. At this point if the prices aren't completely unreasonable (and they likely won't be because they want to sell weapons to us in general, not just for Ukraine) it's probably best to just buy the essential things and send them. If we can buy the US output of anti air missiles, artillery shells and intel for a not completely unreasonable price that's a win. It's not going to be forever either way. Neither country can sustain this war indefinitely (unless China goes all in on supporting Russia I guess). I am not a fan of that. We should build up our own capacities if at all possible. Buying american stuff should be a stopgap at best. The US has shown that they cannot be trusted as an ally anymore, thus we should reduce any reliance on their stuff in the mid to long term. We should build up that capacity, but Ukraine can't wait the years that will take. The core problem i have is that it reinforces bad behaviour. If the US sees that we will just pay them for stuff if they don't do their part, why would they ever do their part again?
They aren't going to do their part again anyway so it doesn't matter. Were gonna spend 5% GDP on defense now (3,5% actual military, 1,5% infrastructure). But that's not helping now.
Every euro in weapons to Ukraine now is worth way more than in the future.
Save them now, build up military (because we need to do it, and because we have to do it due to NATO). Be smart, spend some (a lot...) on that money on nukes so it's not just the UK and France having them. Then we can give the US a chance to become sane again, and if they don't we can tell them to fuck off.
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I think the 5 % is just something that EU NATO members just winked and nodded at Trump because that's their new strategy for dealing with him, flattery and just agree to everything now and then go on and do whatever is actually sound and in their national interest.
5 % military spending is bonkers, US doesn't spend even close to it, if China spent 5 % they'd be above USA, not to mention that going from 2 % requirement of the last 10+ years directly to 5 % is just another Trump's bluster power move.
I agree the spending should go up, but I also think the vast majority of that spending should go into developing manufacturing domestically for everything needed, using it to spend on US shit seems insane given the current geopolitical situation.
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5% is just a message to the world that EU will be ready for a war with Russia. Because the clown brigade that Russia is today is not the potential enemy we face in 20 years.
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On July 06 2025 19:42 0x64 wrote:
5% is just a message to the world that EU will be ready for a war with Russia. Because the clown brigade that Russia is today is not the potential enemy we face in 20 years.
Unless demographics change a lot Russia in 20 years is in a worse spot than right now. Right now they would 100% lose a conventional war against EU/European NATO members members and at 2% spending it is even more certain.
The discussion is about how to make Russia certain that Spain and Italy will protect Lithuania if Russia invades it, thus meaning they won't invade. Lowest percentage that achieves that is a good percentage to aim at.
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Part of it should be used to fund Ukraine's immediate military needs, including buying American equipment if there's no alternative, and building up our manufacturing long-term.
As for our needs, I think the US should be a supplier of the last resort, after EU, other NATO members, and West-aligned countries like South Korea. The Republicans should learn that being openly hostile to your allies has a price.
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Some time ago the EU created a financial instrument called SAFE. This instrument is supposed to help with buying military equipment under the condition that most of the components have to be produced in the EU, EEA/EFTA states or Ukraine. This should allow Europe to gradually reduce the reliance on American manufacturers, but that's still distant future.
It's okay to keep buying Patriots or F-35s as long as the prices are reasonable. If they demand more, especially for stuff that's supposed to be given to Ukraine, it's going to be a hard choice. We want to keep Ukraine afloat, but burning money is usually a bad way of keeping yourself warm.
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Are the frontlines still moving or are they stuck? Any advantage either side?
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On July 06 2025 21:43 sertas wrote:
Are the frontlines still moving or are they stuck? Any advantage either side?
December 2023-January 2025
![[image loading]](https://d9i69xcahp226y.archive.ph/jTAcu/30c904610aff8f74e08a277f0750ca2347e578d4.png)
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On July 06 2025 21:43 sertas wrote:
Are the frontlines still moving or are they stuck? Any advantage either side?
Always moving back and forth, mostly towards Kyiv, but at no pace that is of actual importance. This war isn't going to be won in meters.
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Yeah it really looks like its going to be does Ukraine's support or the Russian economy fall apart first.
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No one at the top believes in the Russian collapse copium
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On July 06 2025 22:47 Sent. wrote:
No one at the top believes in the Russian collapse copium
You are wrong. You really think the people at the top think Ukraine is winning this war with tanks and men?
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Who said anyone expects Ukraine to win this war
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On July 06 2025 23:30 Sent. wrote:
Who said anyone expects Ukraine to win this war
ROLF! wow glad to know you all the people in the know and exactly what they think.
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On July 06 2025 22:47 Sent. wrote:
No one at the top believes in the Russian collapse copium
Doesn't need to be a collapse. It just needs to turn the economy sour enough that they'll have to pull out. There are numerous signs that they can't continue this war forever, including their own central bank who just announced that they're in big big trouble, whereby Putin immediately passed a law that makes them no longer allowed to speak out about the subject
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EPT
