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On March 05 2022 18:41 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2022 18:37 xM(Z wrote:
you can't "turn" to the west and keep being turned to the west without being in NATO. Russia will eventually "get you". As evidenced by the situation in Ukraine. But *why* is that? Why does Russia (or at least Russia's ruling class) cling to 19th century ideas of imperialism? Because its a failing corrupt state dreaming of the days of glory past?
And the corruption runs so deep and is so institutionalised that turning Russia around into a modern day power that competes with the rest of the world and can stand on its own modern status is a colossal task that would negatively impact the ruling class (because they build their empires on said corruption).
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37120 Posts
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37120 Posts
Everyone, please note that saying stuff like: “OMG, this is sickening…” is NOT a supporting statement. That’s just posting your own opinion. You might as well just not post anything before the source if you’re going to do that.
The next infractions will result in auto warnings/temp bans. Please adhere to the public mod note.
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On March 05 2022 18:56 xM(Z wrote:
@Acrofales
why does US do it?, why does China do it?, why does France do it(in Africa)? etc ...
it's the same shit but under different master.
sure you can have opinions/thoughts/ideas over whom would fuck you gentler, and would like to choose your partner, but the drive for it it's the same.
...'cause if they're not fucked, then sooner or later, someone will come and fuck them, so then ... why not you?.
Do you think Portugal feels like they got fucked by the EU or NATO? What about Bulgaria or your own Romania? This concept of international deals as a zero-sum game has to go, as there is no reason for it to be true. The EU has pros and cons, but nobody in it is "getting fucked". The same for NATO: it's a mutual defense pact. The key being defense. Sure, there are some dubious missions, but nobody in NATO was forced through NATO to participate in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Mali or even Afghanistan. US/France used the existing collaborative framework to put pressure on its partners to help in these missions, but countries were able to decline with no repercussions (beyond the US "renaming" fried potatoes freedom fries in a dig to the French).
Ukraine was not given a choice of what it wanted, it was told by Russia "my way or the highway". They, maybe unwisely, chose the highway and indeed got fucked. But there's no reason to believe they would have gotten fucked at all by EU/NATO if Russia hadn't had its imperialistic notions and let them leave their sphere of influence peacefully... hell, maybe even join them in improving their relationship with the EU themselves.
Regarding your whataboutisms: China is scary too and I can't say I understand its one China policy either, beyond plain old greed. France's recent missions in Africa have been rather different, and are mostly in support of the sitting, democratically elected, government (in Mali or, nominally, Burkina Faso) against local rebels, Boko Haram, and ISIS. Libya was of a different nature, but aiding in overthrowing a tyrant who had lost the support of his people is hardly the same as invading Ukraine.
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On March 05 2022 18:56 xM(Z wrote:
@Acrofales
why does US do it?, why does China do it?, why does France do it(in Africa)? etc ...
it's the same shit but under different master.
sure you can have opinions/thoughts/ideas over whom would fuck you gentler, and would like to choose your partner, but the drive for it it's the same.
...'cause if they're not fucked, then sooner or later, someone will come and fuck them, so then ... why not you?.
I always get slightly provoked, as a frenchman when i hear eastern europeans saying they are getting fucked by nato or the european union. It’s our tax money that’s protecting you from Russia, just as it’s our tax money that has been massively invested in your economies. The EU has invested 35 billion euros into Romania since 2014 and the french army will have your back any time you are in trouble and protects you from any direct harm thanks to its nuclear capability. It’s more than a bit annoying to hear that you get « fucked gently ».
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Not that I'm anywhere near agreeing with the idea that my country was fucked by NATO or the EU, but I don't feel protected by France against Russia at all. We just happen to be members of an alliance with a country that does provide that kind of protection.
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Well, I certainly appreciate my country being both in NATO and EU. We get a lot from those organizations, that's for sure. It's not really charity, though. It's a mutually beneficial yet asymmetric arrangement.
EU: we receive money for development in turn west gets easy access to our markets, workforce and resources.
NATO: we receive protection, west receives advanced bases, buffer space and keep us from Russia's space of influence.
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We also gain access and are expected to buy western equpiment.
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On March 05 2022 20:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2022 18:56 xM(Z wrote:
@Acrofales
why does US do it?, why does China do it?, why does France do it(in Africa)? etc ...
it's the same shit but under different master.
sure you can have opinions/thoughts/ideas over whom would fuck you gentler, and would like to choose your partner, but the drive for it it's the same.
...'cause if they're not fucked, then sooner or later, someone will come and fuck them, so then ... why not you?. I always get slightly provoked, as a frenchman when i hear eastern europeans saying they are getting fucked by nato or the european union. It’s our tax money that’s protecting you from Russia, just as it’s our tax money that has been massively invested in your economies. The EU has invested 35 billion euros into Romania since 2014 and the french army will have your back any time you are in trouble and protects you from any direct harm thanks to its nuclear capability. It’s more than a bit annoying to hear that you get « fucked gently ».
How dare these eastern europeans provoke frenchmen, they don't even pay taxes!
Anyone with an explanation for this picture? Btw it's from yesterday. And I have no idea what's real on socials anymore so I'd probably take it with a grain of salt.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 05 2022 19:35 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2022 18:56 xM(Z wrote:
@Acrofales
why does US do it?, why does China do it?, why does France do it(in Africa)? etc ...
it's the same shit but under different master.
sure you can have opinions/thoughts/ideas over whom would fuck you gentler, and would like to choose your partner, but the drive for it it's the same.
...'cause if they're not fucked, then sooner or later, someone will come and fuck them, so then ... why not you?. Do you think Portugal feels like they got fucked by the EU or NATO? What about Bulgaria or your own Romania? This concept of international deals as a zero-sum game has to go, as there is no reason for it to be true. The EU has pros and cons, but nobody in it is "getting fucked". The same for NATO: it's a mutual defense pact. The key being defense. Sure, there are some dubious missions, but nobody in NATO was forced through NATO to participate in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Mali or even Afghanistan. US/France used the existing collaborative framework to put pressure on its partners to help in these missions, but countries were able to decline with no repercussions (beyond the US "renaming" fried potatoes freedom fries in a dig to the French). Ukraine was not given a choice of what it wanted, it was told by Russia "my way or the highway". They, maybe unwisely, chose the highway and indeed got fucked. But there's no reason to believe they would have gotten fucked at all by EU/NATO if Russia hadn't had its imperialistic notions and let them leave their sphere of influence peacefully... hell, maybe even join them in improving their relationship with the EU themselves. Regarding your whataboutisms: China is scary too and I can't say I understand its one China policy either, beyond plain old greed. France's recent missions in Africa have been rather different, and are mostly in support of the sitting, democratically elected, government (in Mali or, nominally, Burkina Faso) against local rebels, Boko Haram, and ISIS. Libya was of a different nature, but aiding in overthrowing a tyrant who had lost the support of his people is hardly the same as invading Ukraine.
In terms of Bulgaria, I'll share statistics, then I'll share my opinion.
Statistics
Research: 6-13 June 2020
European Union
71% approval of EU
Curious fact: 49% approval among supporters/members of BSP (ex-communist party)
NATO
60% approval
25% disapproval
Curious fact: only 1/3 approval among supporters/members of BSP (ex-communist party)
Link (Bulgarian): https://bnr.bg/post/101300457/71-ot-balgarite-odobravat-chlenstvoto-v-es-60-v-nato
Post-invasion of Ukraine statistics
Approval of Putin
June 2021: 55%
February 2022: 32%
Disapproval of Putin:
June 2021: 20%
February 2022: 48%
Support for Zelenskyy:
Positive: 40%
Negative: 29%
Can't decide: 31%
Support for united sanctions within EU against Russia:
Positive: 63%
Negative: 32%
Can't decide: 5%
Do you agree to pay more temporarily in support of Ukraine due to sanctions against Russia? This is about electricity, gas, etc.
Yes: 47%
No: 36%
Can't decide: 17%
Link (Bulgarian): https://www.capital.bg/politika_i_ikonomika/bulgaria/2022/03/01/4318349_alfa_risurch_voinata_v_ukraina_srina_odobrenieto_za/
----
Personal opinion:
Some Bulgarians think of Russia highly for 2 major reasons. The historic one is they helped us to gain independence from the Ottoman occupation in the 1877-1878 Independence war. The other one is nostalgia of communism among the older population (a.k.a certain brainwashing, nostalgia of youthhood, sheer abundance of Russian literature & TV during those times). These same reasons are probably valid for other Eastern European countries like Romania, Serbia, etc if I had to guess.
Younger generation? I hope we don't follow Russia blindly and leave past behind. Independence help was "paid" for a long time ago when we were occupied by communists, so it wasn't free help by any means in my opinion.
Edit: If it wasn't for Soviet crap and sphere of influences, I'd probably be more inclined to support Russia but what they did in the not too distant past is a deal breaker. It leaves bad aftertaste, probably how it feels like for some Serbians regarding Kosovo...
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On March 05 2022 23:04 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2022 20:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 05 2022 18:56 xM(Z wrote:
@Acrofales
why does US do it?, why does China do it?, why does France do it(in Africa)? etc ...
it's the same shit but under different master.
sure you can have opinions/thoughts/ideas over whom would fuck you gentler, and would like to choose your partner, but the drive for it it's the same.
...'cause if they're not fucked, then sooner or later, someone will come and fuck them, so then ... why not you?. I always get slightly provoked, as a frenchman when i hear eastern europeans saying they are getting fucked by nato or the european union. It’s our tax money that’s protecting you from Russia, just as it’s our tax money that has been massively invested in your economies. The EU has invested 35 billion euros into Romania since 2014 and the french army will have your back any time you are in trouble and protects you from any direct harm thanks to its nuclear capability. It’s more than a bit annoying to hear that you get « fucked gently ». How dare these eastern europeans provoke frenchmen, they don't even pay taxes!
What is your point? That is not what he said or implied at all.
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On March 05 2022 23:16 justanothertownie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2022 23:04 Vivax wrote:On March 05 2022 20:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 05 2022 18:56 xM(Z wrote:
@Acrofales
why does US do it?, why does China do it?, why does France do it(in Africa)? etc ...
it's the same shit but under different master.
sure you can have opinions/thoughts/ideas over whom would fuck you gentler, and would like to choose your partner, but the drive for it it's the same.
...'cause if they're not fucked, then sooner or later, someone will come and fuck them, so then ... why not you?. I always get slightly provoked, as a frenchman when i hear eastern europeans saying they are getting fucked by nato or the european union. It’s our tax money that’s protecting you from Russia, just as it’s our tax money that has been massively invested in your economies. The EU has invested 35 billion euros into Romania since 2014 and the french army will have your back any time you are in trouble and protects you from any direct harm thanks to its nuclear capability. It’s more than a bit annoying to hear that you get « fucked gently ». How dare these eastern europeans provoke frenchmen, they don't even pay taxes! What is your point? That is not what he said or implied at all.
The point is it's the type of post you'd read from an ultranationalist and quite belittling for an eastern european when you're at the receiving end.
"You don't pay as much and we got the guns"
Reminds me of a few things Trump said about Europe back in the day.
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United States44383 Posts
On March 05 2022 18:53 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2022 18:41 Acrofales wrote:On March 05 2022 18:37 xM(Z wrote:
you can't "turn" to the west and keep being turned to the west without being in NATO. Russia will eventually "get you". As evidenced by the situation in Ukraine. But *why* is that? Why does Russia (or at least Russia's ruling class) cling to 19th century ideas of imperialism? Listen, they feel threaten by the west and NATO, up to you to consider that valid or not. The message is simple, any countries at their border that dare joining NATO will get a war, as much as it displeases us. We have to deal with it. So we continue with that NATO expansion and we know what's gonna happen.
That’s the same logic as “Any woman who won’t smile at me gets harassed, as much as I hate to harass women. I have to deal with that. The ball is in their court, hopefully they don’t make me harass women.”
Question is why Russia has this incel mentality.
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It's pretty difficult for me to give a shred of credibility to the idea that this was borne out of fear of NATO encroaching on Russia's borders. There were no recent big steps to Ukraine joining NATO (in large part because Russia had already de facto prevented them from joining by its actions in Crimea putting them in a land dispute conflict) and Russia is already bordered by five NATO countries. Russia had standing agreements with Ukraine to avert further conflict and broke them for the sake of the invasion. And, most critically, invading Ukraine makes Russia adjacent to even more NATO countries (though admittedly the leadership will not view Ukraine as part of Russia even while treating it as a de facto vassal).
I can't see this as anything other than Russia (well, Putin) wanting more territory and a vassal state that he felt entitled to. Period. Indulging Putin's pathetic rationalization is exactly what he wants people to do, so don't do what the psycho wants.
Edit: At least, this specific course of action was not borne out of NATO fear. It might be a real concern of Putin and co, but it just isn't coherent as a cause for the invading of Ukraine.
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On March 05 2022 19:35 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2022 18:56 xM(Z wrote:
@Acrofales
why does US do it?, why does China do it?, why does France do it(in Africa)? etc ...
it's the same shit but under different master.
sure you can have opinions/thoughts/ideas over whom would fuck you gentler, and would like to choose your partner, but the drive for it it's the same.
...'cause if they're not fucked, then sooner or later, someone will come and fuck them, so then ... why not you?. Do you think Portugal feels like they got fucked by the EU or NATO? What about Bulgaria or your own Romania? This concept of international deals as a zero-sum game has to go, as there is no reason for it to be true. The EU has pros and cons, but nobody in it is "getting fucked". The same for NATO: it's a mutual defense pact. The key being defense. Sure, there are some dubious missions, but nobody in NATO was forced through NATO to participate in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Mali or even Afghanistan. US/France used the existing collaborative framework to put pressure on its partners to help in these missions, but countries were able to decline with no repercussions (beyond the US "renaming" fried potatoes freedom fries in a dig to the French). Ukraine was not given a choice of what it wanted, it was told by Russia "my way or the highway". They, maybe unwisely, chose the highway and indeed got fucked. But there's no reason to believe they would have gotten fucked at all by EU/NATO if Russia hadn't had its imperialistic notions and let them leave their sphere of influence peacefully... hell, maybe even join them in improving their relationship with the EU themselves. Regarding your whataboutisms: China is scary too and I can't say I understand its one China policy either, beyond plain old greed. France's recent missions in Africa have been rather different, and are mostly in support of the sitting, democratically elected, government (in Mali or, nominally, Burkina Faso) against local rebels, Boko Haram, and ISIS. Libya was of a different nature, but aiding in overthrowing a tyrant who had lost the support of his people is hardly the same as invading Ukraine.
One of THE best answers I've seen to those with paranoia about EU/NATO. And to those who can't understand terms like: DEFENSE, choice, independence...
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I think it may be easier to understand Russia's worries if you expand them to more complicated conflicts and no direct war. Good examples of these are probably Ukraine in 2013, Belarus in last year and Kazakhstan in January. No direct war but civil unrest that could remove pro-Russia leaders or make their position much weaker. However, there seems to be very little that Russia can offer economically, culturally, and ideologically that is actually interesting to the population of their neighbors. Thus, they really can not do anything else than threaten with military. However, It is surprising how they seem not to understand how little support they have. Maybe their success in pushing some of their views in Europe and North America has led them to believe their own propaganda, that there is big divide in the west.
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On March 06 2022 02:08 Legan wrote:
I think it may be easier to understand Russia's worries if you expand them to more complicated conflicts and no direct war. Good examples of these are probably Ukraine in 2013, Belarus in last year and Kazakhstan in January. No direct war but civil unrest that could remove pro-Russia leaders or make their position much weaker. However, there seems to be very little that Russia can offer economically, culturally, and ideologically that is actually interesting to the population of their neighbors. Thus, they really can not do anything else than threaten with military. However, It is surprising how they seem not to understand how little support they have. Maybe their success in pushing some of their views in Europe and North America has led them to believe their own propaganda, that there is big divide in the west. I think they there is a level of officials that understand how little support Russia has. But do you want to be the one to tell Putin that the people of Ukraine overwhelmingly hate him and risk 'falling out of a window'? Easier to smile, nod and say 'of course the people love you oh great leader'.
That is the problem with punishing dissent. People get to scared of the punishment to tell you that your wrong.
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The PM of Israel is meeting with Putin who appears to be in Moscow. Not in a bunker in the Urals.
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On March 05 2022 01:05 AEsgaims wrote:
The US and Europe's failure to fully sanction everything economic (including oil and gas) prior to the unfolding disaster is completely rooted in the continued dependence on fossil fuels throughout the world. We have to finally start seriously pushing EVs, solar, wind power, and other renewables so that we can stop depending on fossil fuels. That being said, there is no excuse for not delivering this punch now. I think its time to sanction all of the fossil fuels coming out of Russia and cut off the supply of oil money.
The whole problem is with limiting domestic production. If Germany didn't limit nuclear, it wouldn't be in the position it is right now.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/fJGE9op.jpg)
