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On October 11 2023 18:53 Excludos wrote:
I'm impressed that people have just decided that "nothing is being done", when absolutely none of us have any insight into what's happening behind closed doors. Impressed? Isn't it, like, the most common thing here on forums, where most people don't have any insights other than what is posted in media outlets? I see it all the time. 
There might have been a lot of negotiations or none, we might learn more about this in time but right now nobody here has a clue what is happening in that regard.
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On October 11 2023 18:53 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2023 18:22 r00ty wrote:On October 11 2023 18:08 Silvanel wrote:
Well. I do agree with You r00ty. That was forseable outcome. Israeli government didn't even try to bring it's people home. And in my opinion thats what they should do. Thats the duty of the government - to protect its people, not going on some bloody revange quest and disregrad their lives.
I have no ilusions that anyone will be brought to justice for crimes against Palestinians. I do hope however that families of those hostages will at least bring a civil case for this. It's fucked up you're right. I mean at least try to get the children out somehow, that would be the bare minimum. Also many of the hostages have dual citizenships, their other home countries should at least try. I had some hope, but this is Israel in existential-threat-mode. They don't care about rules, how it looks or our opinion. I'm impressed that people have just decided that "nothing is being done", when absolutely none of us have any insight into what's happening behind closed doors. Hostage negotiations are usually not done through the news. Neither are rescue operations
While I agree we don't know what has been tried, we do know that whatever was tried has failed, because Hamas is apparently executing them.
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Well in my initial post I wrote "if" as I wasnt completly sure if that information is true. I hope that at least some of the hostages are still alive and will be brought home.
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On October 11 2023 19:08 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2023 18:53 Excludos wrote:
I'm impressed that people have just decided that "nothing is being done", when absolutely none of us have any insight into what's happening behind closed doors. Impressed? Isn't it, like, the most common thing here on forums, where most people don't have any insights other than what is posted in media outlets? I see it all the time. There might have been a lot of negotiations or none, we might learn more about this in time but right now nobody here has a clue what is happening in that regard.
Yes, the western mainstream media coverage has been predictably one sided.Certainly not hearing as much about Israel cutting off electricity and water to over 2 million in the Gaza strip.How can any rational free thinking person can still think Israel has the moral high ground considering that?.
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On October 11 2023 17:05 Silvanel wrote:
I have read that hostages were executed and videos will soon hit the web... if thats true I hope Netanjahu will see his days in court. Not even trying to bring 150 of its own citizens home seems simply criminal.
If I demand that you wire me all of your money right now or I will go find a kitten and torture it, are you to blame for my actions if you didnt meet my demands?
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On October 11 2023 21:13 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2023 19:08 ZeroByte13 wrote:On October 11 2023 18:53 Excludos wrote:
I'm impressed that people have just decided that "nothing is being done", when absolutely none of us have any insight into what's happening behind closed doors. Impressed? Isn't it, like, the most common thing here on forums, where most people don't have any insights other than what is posted in media outlets? I see it all the time. There might have been a lot of negotiations or none, we might learn more about this in time but right now nobody here has a clue what is happening in that regard. Yes, the western mainstream media coverage has been predictably one sided.Certainly not hearing as much about Israel cutting off electricity and water to over 2 million in the Gaza strip.How can any rational free thinking person can still think Israel has the moral high ground considering that?.
Yea, the fact that so many people are 'standing with Israel' right now kinda stinks. Like, Hamas are disgusting terrorists and the attack they carried out was an atrocity -- but how does that justify an even bigger atrocity that is now taking place in Gaza? Erdogan is a crazy bastard but he is right in saying that Israel is acting like a terrorist organization themselves and not as an actual state, and the rest of the world has to follow suit and at the very least condemn their actions (or better yet, start doing something about this).
This is nothing less than blood for blood vengeance and it is not going to make Israel safer or anything of the sort, not unless they actually go and kill every single Palestinian in the region. The amount of justifications and reasonings people are trying to come up with for wholesome slaughter of mostly innocent civilians is insane.
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I wasn't trying to reason for what's going to happen. I was just pointing out what's most likely going to happen and i'm pretty confident in that opinion: No negotiations and a bloodbath in Gaza.
I have no incentive to defend the actions of the Israli government or the IDF. What was and is being done to the Palestinian people by Israel and "us" is inexcusable and is a crime against humanity.
Just not a fan of the indiscriminate killing, raping, beheading, ridicule and abuse of hostages for them to be killed in front of a camera. But that's maybe just because i'm a slave to MSM...
I try to see this in historic perspective and Israel is not going to take this lightly and the response is going to be extreme. If we like it or not. Edit: And i can't blame them.
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On October 11 2023 21:30 SEB2610 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2023 17:05 Silvanel wrote:
I have read that hostages were executed and videos will soon hit the web... if thats true I hope Netanjahu will see his days in court. Not even trying to bring 150 of its own citizens home seems simply criminal. If I demand that you wire me all of your money right now or I will go find a kitten and torture it, are you to blame for my actions if you didnt meet my demands?
No. But isn't about who is to blame for the murder, but about duty of the state and elected officials to care for its citizens. About failing to protect them or not even trying.
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United States43898 Posts
On October 11 2023 15:30 hitthat wrote:
After that war crimes I doubt Israelis will accept anything other than unconditional surrender of Hamas. Why would they talk? They will certainly win the war unless some other country involve.
It’s a failed state. There’s nothing to negotiate with.
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This would appear to make sense seeing how Hezbollah wasn't at the ready when the attack occurred. Showing some signs, at least, they had no idea what was happening in the first hours.
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On October 11 2023 22:43 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2023 21:30 SEB2610 wrote:On October 11 2023 17:05 Silvanel wrote:
I have read that hostages were executed and videos will soon hit the web... if thats true I hope Netanjahu will see his days in court. Not even trying to bring 150 of its own citizens home seems simply criminal. If I demand that you wire me all of your money right now or I will go find a kitten and torture it, are you to blame for my actions if you didnt meet my demands? No. But isn't about who is to blame for the murder, but about duty of the state and elected officials to care for its citizens. About failing to protect them or not even trying. Please point to the Israeli constitution and/or law that dictates this.
Yes a state 'should' care for it citizens and we would consider it their moral obligation, but if you want to sue someone you need a legal obligation and most countries have absolutely no legal obligation to negotiate the release of citizens taken hostage.
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Im sure the US intel community has no motive whatsoever to make it seem like Iran was not involved (after giving Iran regime 6 billion dollars recently)
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United States10363 Posts
On October 12 2023 00:07 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:This would appear to make sense seeing how Hezbollah wasn't at the ready when the attacked occurred. Showing some signs, at least, they had no idea what was happening in the first hours. https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1712114294865695173
So Hamas acted on it's own volition, planned this all somehow, and Egypt apparently had warned Israel about this weeks in advance and Israel ignored the warning. Wow.
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On October 11 2023 22:43 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2023 21:30 SEB2610 wrote:On October 11 2023 17:05 Silvanel wrote:
I have read that hostages were executed and videos will soon hit the web... if thats true I hope Netanjahu will see his days in court. Not even trying to bring 150 of its own citizens home seems simply criminal. If I demand that you wire me all of your money right now or I will go find a kitten and torture it, are you to blame for my actions if you didnt meet my demands? No. But isn't about who is to blame for the murder, but about duty of the state and elected officials to care for its citizens. About failing to protect them or not even trying.
I wouldn't blame them for failing to secure the release of the hostages (under the circumstances), but I do blame them for being taken by complete surprise by the attack given its scale and the sheer technological and intelligence advantage Israel has.
I'd be pretty furious if we spent >5% of GDP on defense, and a neighbour in a tiny strip of land and 2 tech levels below was able to sneak 5000 rockets in unseen and do air drops with Mad Max style junk on us.
Hell, I've even seen some Israeli voices blame the West for duping them into believing Hamas changed and was focused on the economy, e.g.:
Amidror, chairman of the National Security Council from April 2011-November 2013 and now senior fellow with the Jerusalem Institute for Strategy and Security, said some of Israel's allies had been saying that Hamas had acquired "more responsibility".
"We stupidly began to believe that it was true," he said. "So, we made a mistake. We are not going to make this mistake again and we will destroy Hamas, slowly but surely."
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/
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On October 11 2023 21:30 SEB2610 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2023 17:05 Silvanel wrote:
I have read that hostages were executed and videos will soon hit the web... if thats true I hope Netanjahu will see his days in court. Not even trying to bring 150 of its own citizens home seems simply criminal. If I demand that you wire me all of your money right now or I will go find a kitten and torture it, are you to blame for my actions if you didnt meet my demands?
Not really a comparison as I have no obligation to protect all kittens. Now if you had my kitten and threatened to torture it... things change, don't they? Both in how likely I am to wire you money and in how I failed in my duty to protect said kitten from harm if I don't do my utmost to stop you from torturing it.
+ Show Spoiler +But really, joke's on you, because I don't have a kitten.
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On October 12 2023 01:19 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2023 21:30 SEB2610 wrote:On October 11 2023 17:05 Silvanel wrote:
I have read that hostages were executed and videos will soon hit the web... if thats true I hope Netanjahu will see his days in court. Not even trying to bring 150 of its own citizens home seems simply criminal. If I demand that you wire me all of your money right now or I will go find a kitten and torture it, are you to blame for my actions if you didnt meet my demands? Not really a comparison as I have no obligation to protect all kittens. Now if you had my kitten and threatened to torture it... things change, don't they? Both in how likely I am to wire you money and in how I failed in my duty to protect said kitten from harm if I don't do my utmost to stop you from torturing it. + Show Spoiler +But really, joke's on you, because I don't have a kitten.
What is ‘doing the utmost’ to protect your kitten? If you wire me money, isn’t that just encouraging me to do the same thing all over again because you rewarded the behavior? Perhaps it would be wiser to not reward my extortion thereby not encouraging me to kidnap and torture your other kittens.
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United States43898 Posts
On October 12 2023 00:15 SEB2610 wrote:
Im sure the US intel community has no motive whatsoever to make it seem like Iran was not involved (after giving Iran regime 6 billion dollars recently)
Iran is an oil state and the 6b was their own money with strings on it. Do you really think it impacted this? That they couldn’t have possibly done it without the 6b?
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If I were kidnapped by pirates who demanded money in exhange for me, as much as my family would plead for my state to give in to the demands, is the better game theoretical approach not to send in commandos even if that would put my lige at risk?
I’m not suggesting this muddy conflict is clear-cut in any way — it is obviously a huge mess in many many ways.
What I am suggesting is that negotiating and accomodating extortionists (/terrorists) has a non-trivial price.
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On October 12 2023 01:33 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2023 00:15 SEB2610 wrote:
Im sure the US intel community has no motive whatsoever to make it seem like Iran was not involved (after giving Iran regime 6 billion dollars recently) Iran is an oil state and the 6b was their own money with strings on it. Do you really think it impacted this? That they couldn’t have possibly done it without the 6b?
6b is not nothing for Iran; that said, I agree with your assessment about it not being essential to help carry out what Hamas did (if they did in fact help).
My point is that the current US administration would very much like for people not to think they gave money to Hamas (with Iran as middle man) — a question of unfavorable optics. US intel community is known to lie through their teeth whenever they think it benefits them. Now, that does not necessarily mean you can count on the opposite of what they claim to be true — but you should be sceptical.
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On October 12 2023 01:31 SEB2610 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2023 01:19 Acrofales wrote:On October 11 2023 21:30 SEB2610 wrote:On October 11 2023 17:05 Silvanel wrote:
I have read that hostages were executed and videos will soon hit the web... if thats true I hope Netanjahu will see his days in court. Not even trying to bring 150 of its own citizens home seems simply criminal. If I demand that you wire me all of your money right now or I will go find a kitten and torture it, are you to blame for my actions if you didnt meet my demands? Not really a comparison as I have no obligation to protect all kittens. Now if you had my kitten and threatened to torture it... things change, don't they? Both in how likely I am to wire you money and in how I failed in my duty to protect said kitten from harm if I don't do my utmost to stop you from torturing it. + Show Spoiler +But really, joke's on you, because I don't have a kitten. What is ‘doing the utmost’ to protect your kitten? If you wire me money, isn’t that just encouraging me to do the same thing all over again because you rewarded the behavior? Perhaps it would be wiser to not reward my extortion thereby not encouraging me to kidnap and torture your other kittens.
Depending on what the kitten is and what the reward is you will be on either side of this argument during your entire life.
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EPT
