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On January 14 2024 06:52 Magic Powers wrote:
I mean it does indicate a strong sense of grandiosity when someone starts with "the entire planet will be under our law". Coming from someone whose people can't even overcome a neighboring country's military. Big bark no bite. It sounds like a declaration of supremacy but probably as much like the wild imagination of a man who's so filled with hate, passion and narcissism that he can't see straight.
"No more Jews or Christian traitors" is equally ludicrous as that would require his global rule.
It wouldn't surprise me if there were a number of Hamas members who consider that man more of a useful tool for their war efforts than a visionary.
I think for folks like us who are simply not immersed in their world, it’s hard for us to see it as real. But suicide bombers and similar folks are existing within a different world. This video is a good example of the mindset behind these people.
https://reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/x53roq/isis_suicide_bombers_play_a_game_to_decide_who/
In this video, this kid winning the ability to go explode and kill people reminds me of someone on their wedding day. The pride, joy, and purpose he experiences realizing he gets to be the guy to explode needs to be taken at face value. By no means am I saying “and they’re all like this guy”, but I do think many western folks are incapable of fully understanding the mindset of people like the guy in the video.
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On January 14 2024 04:09 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 03:15 stilt wrote:On January 13 2024 08:55 JimmiC wrote:
And for those of you that keep bringing up how Israelis must support the bad blah blah. How come you are giving all the Palestinians a pass on what Hamas does? Should we just start talking about the genocidal actions and talk as what the Palestinians want since Hamas is way more popular in Gaza than Bibi is Israel?
The double standards are so blatant. Since when did Hamas commit a genocide ? And what are you talking about ? The rightful wish of palestinian people to have the fascist colonial state which is mass murdering them expelled ? Israeli society as a while supports this slaughter and the colonization of west bank. Even the "left-wing opposition" does. But you can talk about the so called babies in the oven and other israelis bs as much as you want but that's boring like every medias are parroting them. Hamas themselves happily and openly admit that their aims, if they could practically achieve them go far beyond liberation and right into genocidal intent. To deny this goes far beyond any skepticism of media narratives and straight into the ‘choose your own adventure’ school of unpicking the realities of the world.
Where did hamas commit genocide then ? By thoughts ? They have psychic power or is it on your own "unpicking the realities of the world" ? Calling this kind of desesperate operations which we saw during the course of history "genocidal" is absolutely insane.
That's curious because all I am seeing in this region is agonizing palestinian children... I am surely biaised thanks to my close proximity with lebanese community (my best friend is a christian woman of palestinian ascendance) but really, it's pretty hard to justify this operation by pointing the so called genocidal intent of hamas when they are a bunch a youngsters in adidas pants holding ineffective rockets and rpg against one the most modern army in the world which have plenty of politicians who are talking nicely about ethnic cleasing or throwing a nuclear bomb on Gaza and civilian population which are coming to endorse the slaughter.
But yes, ofc I live in my own world and the medias didn't lie about the numbers of isaeli casualties or crimes of Hamas.
How fascinating it is by the way, to see how children are quiet while dying, I would have thought before they would scream and so on bjt no, I guess I should thank Israel to educate me on how agonizyng bodies react.
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On January 14 2024 07:23 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 04:09 WombaT wrote:On January 14 2024 03:15 stilt wrote:On January 13 2024 08:55 JimmiC wrote:
And for those of you that keep bringing up how Israelis must support the bad blah blah. How come you are giving all the Palestinians a pass on what Hamas does? Should we just start talking about the genocidal actions and talk as what the Palestinians want since Hamas is way more popular in Gaza than Bibi is Israel?
The double standards are so blatant. Since when did Hamas commit a genocide ? And what are you talking about ? The rightful wish of palestinian people to have the fascist colonial state which is mass murdering them expelled ? Israeli society as a while supports this slaughter and the colonization of west bank. Even the "left-wing opposition" does. But you can talk about the so called babies in the oven and other israelis bs as much as you want but that's boring like every medias are parroting them. Hamas themselves happily and openly admit that their aims, if they could practically achieve them go far beyond liberation and right into genocidal intent. To deny this goes far beyond any skepticism of media narratives and straight into the ‘choose your own adventure’ school of unpicking the realities of the world. Where did hamas commit genocide then ? By thoughts ? They have psychic power or is it on your own "unpicking the realities of the world" ? Calling this kind of desesperate operations which we saw during the course of history "genocidal" is absolutely insane. That's curious because all I am seeing in this region is agonizing palestinian children... I am surely biaised thanks to my close proximity with lebanese community (my best friend is a christian woman of palestinian ascendance) but really, it's pretty hard to justify this operation by pointing the so called genocidal intent of hamas when they are a bunch a youngsters in adidas pants holding ineffective rockets and rpg against one the most modern army in the world which have plenty of politicians who are talking nicely about ethnic cleasing or throwing a nuclear bomb on Gaza and civilian population which are coming to endorse the slaughter. But yes, ofc I live in my own world and the medias didn't lie about the numbers of isaeli casualties or crimes of Hamas. How fascinating it is by the way, to see how children are quiet while dying, I would have thought before they would scream and so on bjt no, I guess I should thank Israel to educate me on how agonizyng bodies react.
I'm a bit confused. Are you trying to claim Hamas wouldn't commit genocide if they could by showing that they haven't because they can't? That seems like some really bad reasoning. It'd be like someone being tried for attempted murder to argue that they couldn't have attempted it because the target is still alive...
You don't need to justify Hamas as being the good guys in order to criticise Israel of being genocidal. Hamas are scum. So is Israel's current government and the IDF. You see? Not that hard. There is also an insane power imbalance, making it so that the IDF being a bunch of psychopathic war criminals makes it a far bigger problem than Hamas being a bunch of psychopathic terrorists. The former has a seemingly inexaustable arsenal of modern weaponry with which to flatten all of Gaza. The latter has home-brewed rockets and a tunnel network. Yes, they're homicidal maniacs but October 7, in all its atrocity, was the peak of their ability, while Israel has already slaughtered multiples of the dead in that attack and show no signs of introspection.
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Northern Ireland25441 Posts
On January 14 2024 07:23 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 04:09 WombaT wrote:On January 14 2024 03:15 stilt wrote:On January 13 2024 08:55 JimmiC wrote:
And for those of you that keep bringing up how Israelis must support the bad blah blah. How come you are giving all the Palestinians a pass on what Hamas does? Should we just start talking about the genocidal actions and talk as what the Palestinians want since Hamas is way more popular in Gaza than Bibi is Israel?
The double standards are so blatant. Since when did Hamas commit a genocide ? And what are you talking about ? The rightful wish of palestinian people to have the fascist colonial state which is mass murdering them expelled ? Israeli society as a while supports this slaughter and the colonization of west bank. Even the "left-wing opposition" does. But you can talk about the so called babies in the oven and other israelis bs as much as you want but that's boring like every medias are parroting them. Hamas themselves happily and openly admit that their aims, if they could practically achieve them go far beyond liberation and right into genocidal intent. To deny this goes far beyond any skepticism of media narratives and straight into the ‘choose your own adventure’ school of unpicking the realities of the world. Where did hamas commit genocide then ? By thoughts ? They have psychic power or is it on your own "unpicking the realities of the world" ? Calling this kind of desesperate operations which we saw during the course of history "genocidal" is absolutely insane. That's curious because all I am seeing in this region is agonizing palestinian children... I am surely biaised thanks to my close proximity with lebanese community (my best friend is a christian woman of palestinian ascendance) but really, it's pretty hard to justify this operation by pointing the so called genocidal intent of hamas when they are a bunch a youngsters in adidas pants holding ineffective rockets and rpg against one the most modern army in the world which have plenty of politicians who are talking nicely about ethnic cleasing or throwing a nuclear bomb on Gaza and civilian population which are coming to endorse the slaughter. But yes, ofc I live in my own world and the medias didn't lie about the numbers of isaeli casualties or crimes of Hamas. How fascinating it is by the way, to see how children are quiet while dying, I would have thought before they would scream and so on bjt no, I guess I should thank Israel to educate me on how agonizyng bodies react.
Hamas killed what, 1700 people, some incredibly brutally just a couple of months ago?
This is deluded nonsense, one can still be critical of Israeli policy without going to la la land
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On January 14 2024 07:23 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 04:09 WombaT wrote:On January 14 2024 03:15 stilt wrote:On January 13 2024 08:55 JimmiC wrote:
And for those of you that keep bringing up how Israelis must support the bad blah blah. How come you are giving all the Palestinians a pass on what Hamas does? Should we just start talking about the genocidal actions and talk as what the Palestinians want since Hamas is way more popular in Gaza than Bibi is Israel?
The double standards are so blatant. Since when did Hamas commit a genocide ? And what are you talking about ? The rightful wish of palestinian people to have the fascist colonial state which is mass murdering them expelled ? Israeli society as a while supports this slaughter and the colonization of west bank. Even the "left-wing opposition" does. But you can talk about the so called babies in the oven and other israelis bs as much as you want but that's boring like every medias are parroting them. Hamas themselves happily and openly admit that their aims, if they could practically achieve them go far beyond liberation and right into genocidal intent. To deny this goes far beyond any skepticism of media narratives and straight into the ‘choose your own adventure’ school of unpicking the realities of the world. Where did hamas commit genocide then ? By thoughts ? They have psychic power or is it on your own "unpicking the realities of the world" ? Calling this kind of desesperate operations which we saw during the course of history "genocidal" is absolutely insane. That's curious because all I am seeing in this region is agonizing palestinian children... I am surely biaised thanks to my close proximity with lebanese community (my best friend is a christian woman of palestinian ascendance) but really, it's pretty hard to justify this operation by pointing the so called genocidal intent of hamas when they are a bunch a youngsters in adidas pants holding ineffective rockets and rpg against one the most modern army in the world which have plenty of politicians who are talking nicely about ethnic cleasing or throwing a nuclear bomb on Gaza and civilian population which are coming to endorse the slaughter. But yes, ofc I live in my own world and the medias didn't lie about the numbers of isaeli casualties or crimes of Hamas. How fascinating it is by the way, to see how children are quiet while dying, I would have thought before they would scream and so on bjt no, I guess I should thank Israel to educate me on how agonizyng bodies react.
Wait where in the world is this quiet while dying thing coming from. There’s of course plenty to unpack, but others have already requested clarification.
Maybe it would be easier to just ask this: in your opinion, what happened on October 7? Who did what and to what extent? You seem to have immersed yourself in this situation so I imagine you have a well defined mental model of the gist of what happened.
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On January 14 2024 08:22 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 07:23 stilt wrote:On January 14 2024 04:09 WombaT wrote:On January 14 2024 03:15 stilt wrote:On January 13 2024 08:55 JimmiC wrote:
And for those of you that keep bringing up how Israelis must support the bad blah blah. How come you are giving all the Palestinians a pass on what Hamas does? Should we just start talking about the genocidal actions and talk as what the Palestinians want since Hamas is way more popular in Gaza than Bibi is Israel?
The double standards are so blatant. Since when did Hamas commit a genocide ? And what are you talking about ? The rightful wish of palestinian people to have the fascist colonial state which is mass murdering them expelled ? Israeli society as a while supports this slaughter and the colonization of west bank. Even the "left-wing opposition" does. But you can talk about the so called babies in the oven and other israelis bs as much as you want but that's boring like every medias are parroting them. Hamas themselves happily and openly admit that their aims, if they could practically achieve them go far beyond liberation and right into genocidal intent. To deny this goes far beyond any skepticism of media narratives and straight into the ‘choose your own adventure’ school of unpicking the realities of the world. Where did hamas commit genocide then ? By thoughts ? They have psychic power or is it on your own "unpicking the realities of the world" ? Calling this kind of desesperate operations which we saw during the course of history "genocidal" is absolutely insane. That's curious because all I am seeing in this region is agonizing palestinian children... I am surely biaised thanks to my close proximity with lebanese community (my best friend is a christian woman of palestinian ascendance) but really, it's pretty hard to justify this operation by pointing the so called genocidal intent of hamas when they are a bunch a youngsters in adidas pants holding ineffective rockets and rpg against one the most modern army in the world which have plenty of politicians who are talking nicely about ethnic cleasing or throwing a nuclear bomb on Gaza and civilian population which are coming to endorse the slaughter. But yes, ofc I live in my own world and the medias didn't lie about the numbers of isaeli casualties or crimes of Hamas. How fascinating it is by the way, to see how children are quiet while dying, I would have thought before they would scream and so on bjt no, I guess I should thank Israel to educate me on how agonizyng bodies react. Hamas killed what, 1700 people, some incredibly brutally just a couple of months ago? This is deluded nonsense, one can still be critical of Israeli policy without going to la la land
Deluded nonsense is to justify a mass murder by stating the people who are getting genocided don't like their slaughterers.
And that's 1140, not 1700.
My point was hamas didn't commit a genocide and that Israel has grossly exagerated the atrocities (babies put on oven, numbers of deaths as you just did) but your answer is full of make up lies and switching narrative.
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On January 14 2024 08:36 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 07:23 stilt wrote:On January 14 2024 04:09 WombaT wrote:On January 14 2024 03:15 stilt wrote:On January 13 2024 08:55 JimmiC wrote:
And for those of you that keep bringing up how Israelis must support the bad blah blah. How come you are giving all the Palestinians a pass on what Hamas does? Should we just start talking about the genocidal actions and talk as what the Palestinians want since Hamas is way more popular in Gaza than Bibi is Israel?
The double standards are so blatant. Since when did Hamas commit a genocide ? And what are you talking about ? The rightful wish of palestinian people to have the fascist colonial state which is mass murdering them expelled ? Israeli society as a while supports this slaughter and the colonization of west bank. Even the "left-wing opposition" does. But you can talk about the so called babies in the oven and other israelis bs as much as you want but that's boring like every medias are parroting them. Hamas themselves happily and openly admit that their aims, if they could practically achieve them go far beyond liberation and right into genocidal intent. To deny this goes far beyond any skepticism of media narratives and straight into the ‘choose your own adventure’ school of unpicking the realities of the world. Where did hamas commit genocide then ? By thoughts ? They have psychic power or is it on your own "unpicking the realities of the world" ? Calling this kind of desesperate operations which we saw during the course of history "genocidal" is absolutely insane. That's curious because all I am seeing in this region is agonizing palestinian children... I am surely biaised thanks to my close proximity with lebanese community (my best friend is a christian woman of palestinian ascendance) but really, it's pretty hard to justify this operation by pointing the so called genocidal intent of hamas when they are a bunch a youngsters in adidas pants holding ineffective rockets and rpg against one the most modern army in the world which have plenty of politicians who are talking nicely about ethnic cleasing or throwing a nuclear bomb on Gaza and civilian population which are coming to endorse the slaughter. But yes, ofc I live in my own world and the medias didn't lie about the numbers of isaeli casualties or crimes of Hamas. How fascinating it is by the way, to see how children are quiet while dying, I would have thought before they would scream and so on bjt no, I guess I should thank Israel to educate me on how agonizyng bodies react. Wait where in the world is this quiet while dying thing coming from. There’s of course plenty to unpack, but others have already requested clarification. Maybe it would be easier to just ask this: in your opinion, what happened on October 7? Who did what and to what extent? You seem to have immersed yourself in this situation so I imagine you have a well defined mental model of the gist of what happened.
What happened isn't the result of an ideology but the conditions of the palestinian people. Hamas could have been ecologist, communist, nationalist, such violence will have erupted anyway.
You're Khamas stuff is just a way to paint islamist super vilains in order to justify a policy only based on mass repression and murders rather than eliminating the condition of emergence of Hamas.
As the conditions of subsistance of Hamas remains because your only answer is mass repression, this is indeed a war on the palestinian people and basically a genocidal logic as the point is to bombard them so much until the conditions are so harsh they lose any kind of humanity.
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Northern Ireland25441 Posts
On January 14 2024 10:46 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 08:22 WombaT wrote:On January 14 2024 07:23 stilt wrote:On January 14 2024 04:09 WombaT wrote:On January 14 2024 03:15 stilt wrote:On January 13 2024 08:55 JimmiC wrote:
And for those of you that keep bringing up how Israelis must support the bad blah blah. How come you are giving all the Palestinians a pass on what Hamas does? Should we just start talking about the genocidal actions and talk as what the Palestinians want since Hamas is way more popular in Gaza than Bibi is Israel?
The double standards are so blatant. Since when did Hamas commit a genocide ? And what are you talking about ? The rightful wish of palestinian people to have the fascist colonial state which is mass murdering them expelled ? Israeli society as a while supports this slaughter and the colonization of west bank. Even the "left-wing opposition" does. But you can talk about the so called babies in the oven and other israelis bs as much as you want but that's boring like every medias are parroting them. Hamas themselves happily and openly admit that their aims, if they could practically achieve them go far beyond liberation and right into genocidal intent. To deny this goes far beyond any skepticism of media narratives and straight into the ‘choose your own adventure’ school of unpicking the realities of the world. Where did hamas commit genocide then ? By thoughts ? They have psychic power or is it on your own "unpicking the realities of the world" ? Calling this kind of desesperate operations which we saw during the course of history "genocidal" is absolutely insane. That's curious because all I am seeing in this region is agonizing palestinian children... I am surely biaised thanks to my close proximity with lebanese community (my best friend is a christian woman of palestinian ascendance) but really, it's pretty hard to justify this operation by pointing the so called genocidal intent of hamas when they are a bunch a youngsters in adidas pants holding ineffective rockets and rpg against one the most modern army in the world which have plenty of politicians who are talking nicely about ethnic cleasing or throwing a nuclear bomb on Gaza and civilian population which are coming to endorse the slaughter. But yes, ofc I live in my own world and the medias didn't lie about the numbers of isaeli casualties or crimes of Hamas. How fascinating it is by the way, to see how children are quiet while dying, I would have thought before they would scream and so on bjt no, I guess I should thank Israel to educate me on how agonizyng bodies react. Hamas killed what, 1700 people, some incredibly brutally just a couple of months ago? This is deluded nonsense, one can still be critical of Israeli policy without going to la la land Deluded nonsense is to justify a mass murder by stating the people who are getting genocided don't like their slaughterers. And that's 1140, not 1700. My point was hamas didn't commit a genocide and that Israel has grossly exagerated the atrocities (babies put on oven, numbers of deaths as you just did) but your answer is full of make up lies and switching narrative.
Ask other thread regulars as to my acceptance of Israeli policy and we’ll talk
Hamas only don’t commit genocide because they lack the means to do so.
There’s fucking heinous video Hamas themselves saw fit to put out that sadly for my sanity and general love of humanity I’ve seen that’s just fucking horrific.
You can pretend all you want this doesn’t exist and didn’t happen, go for it, but don’t be surprised if nobody takes you seriously.
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On January 14 2024 10:56 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 08:36 Mohdoo wrote:On January 14 2024 07:23 stilt wrote:On January 14 2024 04:09 WombaT wrote:On January 14 2024 03:15 stilt wrote:On January 13 2024 08:55 JimmiC wrote:
And for those of you that keep bringing up how Israelis must support the bad blah blah. How come you are giving all the Palestinians a pass on what Hamas does? Should we just start talking about the genocidal actions and talk as what the Palestinians want since Hamas is way more popular in Gaza than Bibi is Israel?
The double standards are so blatant. Since when did Hamas commit a genocide ? And what are you talking about ? The rightful wish of palestinian people to have the fascist colonial state which is mass murdering them expelled ? Israeli society as a while supports this slaughter and the colonization of west bank. Even the "left-wing opposition" does. But you can talk about the so called babies in the oven and other israelis bs as much as you want but that's boring like every medias are parroting them. Hamas themselves happily and openly admit that their aims, if they could practically achieve them go far beyond liberation and right into genocidal intent. To deny this goes far beyond any skepticism of media narratives and straight into the ‘choose your own adventure’ school of unpicking the realities of the world. Where did hamas commit genocide then ? By thoughts ? They have psychic power or is it on your own "unpicking the realities of the world" ? Calling this kind of desesperate operations which we saw during the course of history "genocidal" is absolutely insane. That's curious because all I am seeing in this region is agonizing palestinian children... I am surely biaised thanks to my close proximity with lebanese community (my best friend is a christian woman of palestinian ascendance) but really, it's pretty hard to justify this operation by pointing the so called genocidal intent of hamas when they are a bunch a youngsters in adidas pants holding ineffective rockets and rpg against one the most modern army in the world which have plenty of politicians who are talking nicely about ethnic cleasing or throwing a nuclear bomb on Gaza and civilian population which are coming to endorse the slaughter. But yes, ofc I live in my own world and the medias didn't lie about the numbers of isaeli casualties or crimes of Hamas. How fascinating it is by the way, to see how children are quiet while dying, I would have thought before they would scream and so on bjt no, I guess I should thank Israel to educate me on how agonizyng bodies react. Wait where in the world is this quiet while dying thing coming from. There’s of course plenty to unpack, but others have already requested clarification. Maybe it would be easier to just ask this: in your opinion, what happened on October 7? Who did what and to what extent? You seem to have immersed yourself in this situation so I imagine you have a well defined mental model of the gist of what happened. What happened isn't the result of an ideology but the conditions of the palestinian people. Hamas could have been ecologist, communist, nationalist, such violence will have erupted anyway. You're Khamas stuff is just a way to paint islamist super vilains in order to justify a policy only based on mass repression and murders rather than eliminating the condition of emergence of Hamas. As the conditions of subsistance of Hamas remains because your only answer is mass repression, this is indeed a war on the palestinian people and basically a genocidal logic as the point is to bombard them so much until the conditions are so harsh they lose any kind of humanity.
May I ask if you are familiar with the videos Hamas posted on telegram? It sounds like some of the things you are saying didn’t happen are things that were publicly shared by Hamas in the moments/days after October 7. I don’t encourage you to watch those videos because Wombat wasn’t being hyperbolic when he described his reaction to the content of the videos. But I do encourage you to determine for yourself whether or not Hamas posted videos of the event on telegram and the general events shown in the videos. I have not met an ecologist who behaves in that way, but perhaps I’ve just been lucky.
May I ask what exactly is the meaning behind “Khamas”? I have seen this phrasing used in random comments and I suspect it has some sort of meaning because it would otherwise be an abnormally common typo.
Since it sounds like our views differ significantly, may I ask what you see as the best path to peace at this moment? I am not asking you to define some grand solution. It’s just that since we differ so strongly I’m genuinely curious what your general view of solutions to the current situation would be.
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On January 14 2024 12:40 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 10:56 stilt wrote:On January 14 2024 08:36 Mohdoo wrote:On January 14 2024 07:23 stilt wrote:On January 14 2024 04:09 WombaT wrote:On January 14 2024 03:15 stilt wrote:On January 13 2024 08:55 JimmiC wrote:
And for those of you that keep bringing up how Israelis must support the bad blah blah. How come you are giving all the Palestinians a pass on what Hamas does? Should we just start talking about the genocidal actions and talk as what the Palestinians want since Hamas is way more popular in Gaza than Bibi is Israel?
The double standards are so blatant. Since when did Hamas commit a genocide ? And what are you talking about ? The rightful wish of palestinian people to have the fascist colonial state which is mass murdering them expelled ? Israeli society as a while supports this slaughter and the colonization of west bank. Even the "left-wing opposition" does. But you can talk about the so called babies in the oven and other israelis bs as much as you want but that's boring like every medias are parroting them. Hamas themselves happily and openly admit that their aims, if they could practically achieve them go far beyond liberation and right into genocidal intent. To deny this goes far beyond any skepticism of media narratives and straight into the ‘choose your own adventure’ school of unpicking the realities of the world. Where did hamas commit genocide then ? By thoughts ? They have psychic power or is it on your own "unpicking the realities of the world" ? Calling this kind of desesperate operations which we saw during the course of history "genocidal" is absolutely insane. That's curious because all I am seeing in this region is agonizing palestinian children... I am surely biaised thanks to my close proximity with lebanese community (my best friend is a christian woman of palestinian ascendance) but really, it's pretty hard to justify this operation by pointing the so called genocidal intent of hamas when they are a bunch a youngsters in adidas pants holding ineffective rockets and rpg against one the most modern army in the world which have plenty of politicians who are talking nicely about ethnic cleasing or throwing a nuclear bomb on Gaza and civilian population which are coming to endorse the slaughter. But yes, ofc I live in my own world and the medias didn't lie about the numbers of isaeli casualties or crimes of Hamas. How fascinating it is by the way, to see how children are quiet while dying, I would have thought before they would scream and so on bjt no, I guess I should thank Israel to educate me on how agonizyng bodies react. Wait where in the world is this quiet while dying thing coming from. There’s of course plenty to unpack, but others have already requested clarification. Maybe it would be easier to just ask this: in your opinion, what happened on October 7? Who did what and to what extent? You seem to have immersed yourself in this situation so I imagine you have a well defined mental model of the gist of what happened. What happened isn't the result of an ideology but the conditions of the palestinian people. Hamas could have been ecologist, communist, nationalist, such violence will have erupted anyway. You're Khamas stuff is just a way to paint islamist super vilains in order to justify a policy only based on mass repression and murders rather than eliminating the condition of emergence of Hamas. As the conditions of subsistance of Hamas remains because your only answer is mass repression, this is indeed a war on the palestinian people and basically a genocidal logic as the point is to bombard them so much until the conditions are so harsh they lose any kind of humanity. May I ask if you are familiar with the videos Hamas posted on telegram? It sounds like some of the things you are saying didn’t happen are things that were publicly shared by Hamas in the moments/days after October 7. I don’t encourage you to watch those videos because Wombat wasn’t being hyperbolic when he described his reaction to the content of the videos. But I do encourage you to determine for yourself whether or not Hamas posted videos of the event on telegram and the general events shown in the videos. I have not met an ecologist who behaves in that way, but perhaps I’ve just been lucky. May I ask what exactly is the meaning behind “Khamas”? I have seen this phrasing used in random comments and I suspect it has some sort of meaning because it would otherwise be an abnormally common typo. Since it sounds like our views differ significantly, may I ask what you see as the best path to peace at this moment? I am not asking you to define some grand solution. It’s just that since we differ so strongly I’m genuinely curious what your general view of solutions to the current situation would be.
No idea what seeing Hamas massacre would change the fact this is not a genocide nor it has been exagerated.
For peace, well, I am seeing the same as everyone else, a massive slaughter and dezhumanisation. Only the israelis have something to propose as the others are weak to the point there are at their mercy.
The hypothetical solution have to begin with the récognition of a palestinian sovereign state, a commission of justice/reconciliation about the numerous crimes commited, the end of colonization, the build up of strong economic ties so they will at least give the palestinians something to lose and a plan for the end of gaza's blocus.
Stopping the destruction of palestinian cimeteries for the one who aren't protected by unesco and stopping of making touristification of the ones who are being transformed as touristic place rather than a place of commemoration and grief.
Massive compensation for the exilees in lebanon and a push to give them citizenship of their current country of residence might be a good idea as well even if it will screw the religious balance of the country.
Prosecution of settlers/soldiers who are committing crimes.
Won't ever happen without external pressure which... won't ever happen. I guess International sanctions should hurt israel way more than Russia but the usa and the west is a firm ally of Israel.
I will disgress of this part, but the worrying part is a large chunck of the french far right have a decent chance to pass the election. And their views are pretty medieval : they love the reference to the crusaders to repel and attack the horde of muslims (reconquête is the name of the second major far right party, the one of zemmour). And basically there are now a sort of leapfrogging effect between the 3 rightist parties (even the supposed moderate one) which will sput more and more xenophobia while embrassing Israel's model to deal with the muslim population and emigration. European far right is not the american one, it is far worse, the general discourse has never been this violent while a far right which is trying to whitewash the collaborationnist legacy has never been closer to be elected.
And as much as I have been anti islam in this forum or elsewhere, I am not for Israel method on my own citizen.
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From official Israeli PM twitter account, will ignore any rulings from International courts in The Hague (South Africas genocide claim) and continue doing as they wish.
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Northern Ireland25441 Posts
On January 14 2024 17:39 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 12:40 Mohdoo wrote:On January 14 2024 10:56 stilt wrote:On January 14 2024 08:36 Mohdoo wrote:On January 14 2024 07:23 stilt wrote:On January 14 2024 04:09 WombaT wrote:On January 14 2024 03:15 stilt wrote:On January 13 2024 08:55 JimmiC wrote:
And for those of you that keep bringing up how Israelis must support the bad blah blah. How come you are giving all the Palestinians a pass on what Hamas does? Should we just start talking about the genocidal actions and talk as what the Palestinians want since Hamas is way more popular in Gaza than Bibi is Israel?
The double standards are so blatant. Since when did Hamas commit a genocide ? And what are you talking about ? The rightful wish of palestinian people to have the fascist colonial state which is mass murdering them expelled ? Israeli society as a while supports this slaughter and the colonization of west bank. Even the "left-wing opposition" does. But you can talk about the so called babies in the oven and other israelis bs as much as you want but that's boring like every medias are parroting them. Hamas themselves happily and openly admit that their aims, if they could practically achieve them go far beyond liberation and right into genocidal intent. To deny this goes far beyond any skepticism of media narratives and straight into the ‘choose your own adventure’ school of unpicking the realities of the world. Where did hamas commit genocide then ? By thoughts ? They have psychic power or is it on your own "unpicking the realities of the world" ? Calling this kind of desesperate operations which we saw during the course of history "genocidal" is absolutely insane. That's curious because all I am seeing in this region is agonizing palestinian children... I am surely biaised thanks to my close proximity with lebanese community (my best friend is a christian woman of palestinian ascendance) but really, it's pretty hard to justify this operation by pointing the so called genocidal intent of hamas when they are a bunch a youngsters in adidas pants holding ineffective rockets and rpg against one the most modern army in the world which have plenty of politicians who are talking nicely about ethnic cleasing or throwing a nuclear bomb on Gaza and civilian population which are coming to endorse the slaughter. But yes, ofc I live in my own world and the medias didn't lie about the numbers of isaeli casualties or crimes of Hamas. How fascinating it is by the way, to see how children are quiet while dying, I would have thought before they would scream and so on bjt no, I guess I should thank Israel to educate me on how agonizyng bodies react. Wait where in the world is this quiet while dying thing coming from. There’s of course plenty to unpack, but others have already requested clarification. Maybe it would be easier to just ask this: in your opinion, what happened on October 7? Who did what and to what extent? You seem to have immersed yourself in this situation so I imagine you have a well defined mental model of the gist of what happened. What happened isn't the result of an ideology but the conditions of the palestinian people. Hamas could have been ecologist, communist, nationalist, such violence will have erupted anyway. You're Khamas stuff is just a way to paint islamist super vilains in order to justify a policy only based on mass repression and murders rather than eliminating the condition of emergence of Hamas. As the conditions of subsistance of Hamas remains because your only answer is mass repression, this is indeed a war on the palestinian people and basically a genocidal logic as the point is to bombard them so much until the conditions are so harsh they lose any kind of humanity. May I ask if you are familiar with the videos Hamas posted on telegram? It sounds like some of the things you are saying didn’t happen are things that were publicly shared by Hamas in the moments/days after October 7. I don’t encourage you to watch those videos because Wombat wasn’t being hyperbolic when he described his reaction to the content of the videos. But I do encourage you to determine for yourself whether or not Hamas posted videos of the event on telegram and the general events shown in the videos. I have not met an ecologist who behaves in that way, but perhaps I’ve just been lucky. May I ask what exactly is the meaning behind “Khamas”? I have seen this phrasing used in random comments and I suspect it has some sort of meaning because it would otherwise be an abnormally common typo. Since it sounds like our views differ significantly, may I ask what you see as the best path to peace at this moment? I am not asking you to define some grand solution. It’s just that since we differ so strongly I’m genuinely curious what your general view of solutions to the current situation would be. No idea what seeing Hamas massacre would change the fact this is not a genocide nor it has been exagerated. For peace, well, I am seeing the same as everyone else, a massive slaughter and dezhumanisation. Only the israelis have something to propose as the others are weak to the point there are at their mercy. The hypothetical solution have to begin with the récognition of a palestinian sovereign state, a commission of justice/reconciliation about the numerous crimes commited, the end of colonization, the build up of strong economic ties so they will at least give the palestinians something to lose and a plan for the end of gaza's blocus. Stopping the destruction of palestinian cimeteries for the one who aren't protected by unesco and stopping of making touristification of the ones who are being transformed as touristic place rather than a place of commemoration and grief. Massive compensation for the exilees in lebanon and a push to give them citizenship of their current country of residence might be a good idea as well even if it will screw the religious balance of the country. Prosecution of settlers/soldiers who are committing crimes. Won't ever happen without external pressure which... won't ever happen. I guess International sanctions should hurt israel way more than Russia but the usa and the west is a firm ally of Israel. I will disgress of this part, but the worrying part is a large chunck of the french far right have a decent chance to pass the election. And their views are pretty medieval : they love the reference to the crusaders to repel and attack the horde of muslims (reconquête is the name of the second major far right party, the one of zemmour). And basically there are now a sort of leapfrogging effect between the 3 rightist parties (even the supposed moderate one) which will sput more and more xenophobia while embrassing Israel's model to deal with the muslim population and emigration. European far right is not the american one, it is far worse, the general discourse has never been this violent while a far right which is trying to whitewash the collaborationnist legacy has never been closer to be elected. And as much as I have been anti islam in this forum or elsewhere, I am not for Israel method on my own citizen.
I don’t disagree with a lot of this but equally there is an ideology underpinning this, and unfortunately it is rather Islamic in basis. The majority of my adult life since 9/11 I’ve been railing against the largely baseless Islamophobia that has come in its wake.
But Hamas are absolutely religiously motivated zealots. It’s not all their motivation of course, and they are shaped by conditions too.
Equally they’re not the IRA, or an ETA, the former not exactly being popular amongst Brits here that I know, indeed I have a close family member whose husband they killed in a bomb so it’s a topic we skirt around, as I have certain sympathies for that cause.
But the IRA largely didn’t go around massacring civilians, and when their broad goals were achieved they (largely) gave up arms. It certainly helped that the likes of the US interceded, which is lacking in the Palestinian cause.
Hamas have, and if they had the means, would engage in wholesale slaughter on a regular basis.
As much as I (I believe correctly) worry and bemoan the rise of the far right rhetoric, inflamed with religious bigotry all across Europe, equally it doesn’t serve my left wing sensibilities to over compensate and whitewash what Hamas is. One can still have broad Palestinian sympathies and want a resolution to their very legitimate issues without crossing that particular Rubicon,
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Since I refuse to watch any of the footage Hamas uploaded, I'd like to ask if someone has a SFW summary/explanation of some or all of the available footage? If so, could you please provide a link?
A pure text form summary would also suffice.
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You should never have expected anything else, that was obvious. The provisional measures matter in that, if they're demanded by the ICJ, they create extremely bad PR for the countries that will continue to support Israel, not in that we think Netanyahu is going to suddenly start caring about international law.
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On January 14 2024 18:51 Nebuchad wrote:You should never have expected anything else, that was obvious. The provisional measures matter in that, if they're demanded by the ICJ, they create extremely bad PR for the countries that will continue to support Israel, not in that we think Netanyahu is going to suddenly start caring about international law.
Indeed, the ICJ ruling wouldn't a stick to hit Netanyahu with. Well, best case he would abide by international law, but then he wouldn't have started an indiscriminate bombing campaign in the first place. The point is that it is a stick to beat Biden with to stop vetoing UN resolutions for a ceasefire, and a legal basis on which to maybe start sanctioning Israel. Both of those should be done even without "possible genocide" occurring, because Israel is committing plenty of atrocities even if it isn't "maybe genocide" and need to be stopped. But nobody is actually doing anything to stop them.
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I can't help but note that the previous "threat to Israel's existence" has recently turned into "threat to Israel". They know. They know and they don't care.
Edit: also, if my estimate is correct it'll require roughly 50 000 more civilian deaths before Hamas is wiped out.
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Northern Ireland25441 Posts
On January 14 2024 19:27 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2024 18:51 Nebuchad wrote:You should never have expected anything else, that was obvious. The provisional measures matter in that, if they're demanded by the ICJ, they create extremely bad PR for the countries that will continue to support Israel, not in that we think Netanyahu is going to suddenly start caring about international law. Indeed, the ICJ ruling wouldn't a stick to hit Netanyahu with. Well, best case he would abide by international law, but then he wouldn't have started an indiscriminate bombing campaign in the first place. The point is that it is a stick to beat Biden with to stop vetoing UN resolutions for a ceasefire, and a legal basis on which to maybe start sanctioning Israel. Both of those should be done even without "possible genocide" occurring, because Israel is committing plenty of atrocities even if it isn't "maybe genocide" and need to be stopped. But nobody is actually doing anything to stop them.
One can but hope.
Reasonably dismantling Hamas’ ability to consistently harm Israelis is an eminently achievable goal, outright eradicating them is not, at least without a heinous humanitarian cost. You run into the mythological hydra problem
Unfortunately in the aftermath of such an evocative event, appetites will be trending towards the latter, although obviously there are many Israelis who aren’t so minded
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EPT
