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Hamas wants to do exactly that, to kill everyone in Israel and take over.
No question about that tbh. Not that they can do that though.
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On January 12 2024 00:18 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2024 13:15 Cerebrate1 wrote:On January 11 2024 12:15 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 11 2024 11:55 Cerebrate1 wrote:On January 11 2024 10:49 WombaT wrote:On January 11 2024 00:07 Cerebrate1 wrote:
Kudos specifically to JimmyC, Cricketer12, and WombaT for raising the bar here with some of your recent high effort well thought out reasonable posts and discussion. I appreciate seeing civil engagement in discussion. Why thank you sir and very much reciprocated, although I also do engage in rather frequent lazy posting too! On January 11 2024 10:18 Cerebrate1 wrote:On January 11 2024 00:40 JimmiC wrote:On January 11 2024 00:07 Cerebrate1 wrote:
Kudos specifically to JimmyC, Cricketer12, and WombaT for raising the bar here with some of your recent high effort well thought out reasonable posts and discussion. I appreciate seeing civil engagement in discussion. Thank you. Would you know of Israeli politicians that someone like cricketer12, or myself might be interested. They would be left leaning, want to end settlements and some sort of permanent likely two state solution with the Palestinians. I don't think the American/Canadian "Left/Right" spectrum is very useful for categorizing politics in Israel. It's multifaceted in a lot of ways (partially because it's style of parliamentary democracy leaves room for a ton of political parties), but also united on things that are political in other countries. For instance, every party is on board with a public healthcare system and welfare (even religious orthodox parties that are called "far right" by certain media publications). One of the big political debates a couple years ago was exactly how young children could be to be eligible for government funded childcare (only from the age of 3, immediately from birth, or somewhere in between.) So by a number of metrics, basically every politician in Israel is "left wing." They also all support significant military spending (probably cus Israel wouldn't exist long without it), so in that way, they could all be called "right wing." In terms of which parties support a two state solution, Yesh Atid, Labor, UAL, and Hadash Ta'al parties all support it. Labor used to be the most significant of those, but it's diminished a lot over the years. Yesh Atid has the most seats in the current coalition and you'd probably like them. They support focusing on Israel's economy and technology first to improve other factors. I support a number of their policies, but don't like their anti-religious bent (but it seems like that might be another plus for you). Their leader Yair Lapid. Interesting insight, and part of the reason I enjoy these hallowed forums to get a bit of understanding on various locales. I think with the probable exception of the US, which permeates so much of our media and culture it’s very difficult to actually get a sense of the diversity of a country’s views and its particulars, its ‘soul’ if you will without a native providing it. I try my best to articulate the quirks of the basket case that is my native land in return! In this sense I think it’s a shame we don’t have many, if any posters who are Palestinian dwellers, or indeed from neighbouring countries that are embroiled in this conflict somehow. Palestinians I’ve engaged with over here at solidarity events for example are invariably Palestinian by heritage, but not natives as it were, so I always wonder how much their general worldview has diverged by that distance, and how similar they’d be to someone born and bred in Gaza for example. In hindsight, maybe I should have asked more Palestinians their thoughts on these issues when I lived in Israel. I had a number of Palestinian neighbors and people I interacted with (I lived in a very mixed neighborhood.) On the other hand, my policy to not talk politics with my neighbors in general is probably a good one, lest it turn out we disagree vehemently on some issue that will never actually matter personally as much as being able to borrow milk or the like. My Egyptian born friend in University (in America) was probably more vocally pro-Israel than I am. But I don't think he is representative of the average Egyptian because his family is Coptic (Christians that were in Egypt since before Islam existed). A lot of Christian ex pats from Egypt and Lebanon are very pro-Israel because they've faced similar challenges. I'm not going to insult their intelligence and suggest their thought process is flawed, I recognize and am saddened by their struggles. They are a historic part of those lands and deserve respect. With that said this is a good time to bring up the fact that there is a sizeable and ancient group of Palestinian Christians that struggle and suffer under Israeli occupation just as the Palestinian Muslims do. To clarify, it's not because of their being there first or something, I was merely defining "Coptic Christians" because many here have probably never heard of them. Their shared experience with Israel is that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and Hezbollah in Lebanon have similar ideologies to Hamas in Gaza and have caused much suffering for Christians, secular people, and even Muslims who aren't devout in the same way as them in their respective countries. A lot of those minorities left Egypt and Lebanon when those respective groups gained power to escape the persecution. Things are a lot better in Egypt now under a secular(ish) government, but it took a lot of guns to force the Muslim Brotherhood out of power. As for Christians in Gaza, if reports from doctors who visit are anything to go by, they fear getting shot by Hamas for even saying anything "treasonous" a lot more than they fear Israeli missile strikes. If we got a whole family of Christians out from under the thumb of Hamas, I bet they'd relate quite well to the Coptic Christians and the Lebanese Christians. Gotcha, that's really interesting and not a perspective I ever hear. It doesn't necessarily contradict what I've observed either (which is purely them begging Israel to stop bombing their lands and peoples), which I'm sure is a message Hamas wouldn't care to prevent.
For sure. I feel particularly bad for them as they are really caught between a rock and a hard place. It's hard to imagine a happy ending for them regardless how this all shakes out. Maybe if they move to Israel and get citizenship or something.
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On January 12 2024 03:24 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2024 03:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 01:53 JimmiC wrote:I think the thought is that if they worked together opinions would change to where they were before. Otherwise you're in a situation where Hamas wants to kill everyone in Israel and take over. In that case at some point this happens again only worse. And yes worse is possible. I don't really know Israeli poll numbers. But if 75% Palestinians support the attack of Oct. 7, and same number are NOT in support of two-state solution, what choice does Israel have when apparently 3/4 of Palestinians seem to basically support HAMAS and their (Israel) land has been attacked? Do the attacks (war) end, if they come with terms that the "western world agrees with" (that's what we are talking about right? because the arab world is never going to be good with any terms anyways long term).. I do not have good answers for you. From the start I've been asking for anyone with good solutions on how Israel can exist and peace can exist. No good answers have come likely because it is a incredibly difficult and complex situation. My personal hope is that if Israel actually starts acting like the good guy better options come up. It appeared like a two state solution was realistic and possible at one point. Does that solve everything? No not even close but it at least makes all the rules of engagement more clear, it would make western support more clear. The big problem is when Hamas explicit goal (along with all their "axis of resistance" (interesting they chose axis) partners) is to kill and remove all of Israel (including the Palestinians that live there) . Their enemy ISIS has that same goal but also both groups want to kill each other. How do you ever have true peace and not just lulls between attacks? I really do not know, maybe taking out the top people? Maybe the top people get sick of all the killing and realize everyone can live a better life and they can be even richer and more powerful if they stop killing each other? I really do not know.
There probably is not a good solution, unfortunately. 
I don't think, if Israel starts acting like a "good guy", that it will do anything better.
I think many people here like to promote the assumption that if one side does a "good thing", then the conflict would somehow resolve. From what i have seen, on statistics on those sides, i don't really believe in that.
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On January 12 2024 01:53 JimmiC wrote:I think the thought is that if they worked together opinions would change to where they were before. Otherwise you're in a situation where Hamas wants to kill everyone in Israel and take over. In that case at some point this happens again only worse. And yes worse is possible.
Yeah unless PA pulls off a miracle, we're looking at the first big step coming from the Israeli side
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On January 12 2024 03:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2024 03:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 12 2024 03:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 01:53 JimmiC wrote:I think the thought is that if they worked together opinions would change to where they were before. Otherwise you're in a situation where Hamas wants to kill everyone in Israel and take over. In that case at some point this happens again only worse. And yes worse is possible. I don't really know Israeli poll numbers. But if 75% Palestinians support the attack of Oct. 7, and same number are NOT in support of two-state solution, what choice does Israel have when apparently 3/4 of Palestinians seem to basically support HAMAS and their (Israel) land has been attacked? Do the attacks (war) end, if they come with terms that the "western world agrees with" (that's what we are talking about right? because the arab world is never going to be good with any terms anyways long term).. I do not have good answers for you. From the start I've been asking for anyone with good solutions on how Israel can exist and peace can exist. No good answers have come likely because it is a incredibly difficult and complex situation. My personal hope is that if Israel actually starts acting like the good guy better options come up. It appeared like a two state solution was realistic and possible at one point. Does that solve everything? No not even close but it at least makes all the rules of engagement more clear, it would make western support more clear. The big problem is when Hamas explicit goal (along with all their "axis of resistance" (interesting they chose axis) partners) is to kill and remove all of Israel (including the Palestinians that live there) . Their enemy ISIS has that same goal but also both groups want to kill each other. How do you ever have true peace and not just lulls between attacks? I really do not know, maybe taking out the top people? Maybe the top people get sick of all the killing and realize everyone can live a better life and they can be even richer and more powerful if they stop killing each other? I really do not know. There probably is not a good solution, unfortunately. I don't think, if Israel starts acting like a "good guy", that it will do anything better. I think many people here like to promote the assumption that if one side does a "good thing", then the conflict would somehow resolve. From what i have seen, on statistics on those sides, i don't really believe in that.
The conflict is unlikely to resolve because neither side has an incentive to go for a resolution. The Palestinians don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because if they capitulate every indication points to Israel will just continue their expansion project, and the Israelis don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because their government wants to expand, we're letting them get away with just about anything they want, and they're obviously winning. It would take a major shift for that to change.
I can't let you get away with this post though, because it's a bit weird to be all realpolitik and declare that there are no good guys and it would be naive to expect good things and all, but then to side with and defend one of the aggressive forces like you've been doing.
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On January 10 2024 17:58 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2024 11:47 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 11:13 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 10:32 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 09:35 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 06:57 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 05:10 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 05:01 JimmiC wrote:On January 10 2024 04:55 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 10 2024 04:48 JimmiC wrote:
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If you can find where I said ALL Palestinians are zealots? Is it at all controversial to say that lots are?
Thanks though for proving my point of thinking the worst of people who do not hate on Israel, whereas Nettles on this thread gets incredible levels of benefit of doubt when his whole posting history has earned the opposite.
Who tf is Nettles? I think I have said anything regarding him once and it was calling him out. I do like that I call you out saying "hey, words have meaning, you say things that insinuate a poor review of the average Palestinian" and you hit me back not with "hey good point I'll do better" or "can you point to some examples" or "can you clarify what you mean", but with "um actually I never said ALL". This is not the first time I've called you out on trying to say shit about the average citizen, last time you ignored me, which is fine, it's a big thread and stuff is easily missed, hard to give you the same benefit of doubt here. Nettles is the guy who made the race post. He’s a far right poster who has made his world view clear on the USpol thread, Covid thread and likely others. Those who post there know his world view and many of them have called him out on them there. But here it’s crickets. Pun intended. I can’t make every post a perfect dissertation that people can’t find something to be mad about if they want too. I’m not particularly worried about it as I know where my morales and values stand. I’m happy to clarify and debate, but if people are going to hold their negative assumptions of me as fact that is their problem and not mine. I don't think you have to be perfect to address the point I raised. I don't think it's a particularly political point of discussion (unless you're an alt-right racist) which I don't think you are. I'm happy you know where your morals and values stand but if the wording in your posts varies from that and people point that out, I'm not sure how you can be annoyed by that, unless I am wrong in my assumptions and you really do believe the Palestinians are a problematic people in general, or that the IDF's crimes are far fewer than is the reality. Yeah, from the sounds of it, Nettles post here was really insidious and should be called out. You were correct in your reply to him that the primary problem and the first thing to be called out isn't race, it's the very concept of forced mass exodus. I have said lots that I think the IDF is very callous in their war with Hamas. They show no regard for the Palestinian people. I'm not sure why I have to reiterate it over and over. I also do not believe the Palestinians are a problematic people in general. I do believe that Hamas is evil. I do believe that religious extremism is a huge problem in the world. And that is true in most nations. A story that didn't get any mention on this thread, which is not a big deal since it is not directly related, is that ISIS sent suicide bombers to kill a bunch of people at a funeral for a Iran commander who was killed by Israel. I think Iran and is a huge problem in funding terror and participating and yet I didn't cheer. The people at funeral do not deserve to die by suicide bomb regardless of me disagreeing that they should attend. And how could I cheer for anything ISIS does they are just the different side of the same coin with Hamas. ISIS "winning" does not help anyone, even if they destroy a group I despise. This is very round about and maybe not that well thought out, but what I'm trying to get at is talking like its Israel or Israeli's causing the major problems is not accurate. It is the far right within Israel that is, and is powered by religious extremists and that group is growing not shrinking. Yelling hate towards Israel is not going to change that, it might even accelerate it. Palestine has basically been over run by religious hate groups, Syria is having a civil war between multiple hate factions, Iran is run by them, Lebanon is either run by one of these groups or to scared to do anything about it, the Taliban won and they are spreading in there part of the world. The way Israel is going about dealing with it is wrong, partly because they are not dealing with the problem internally and largely because their callous actions are feeding the problem not lessoning it. But what is the solution? The US tried their own ham fisted attempt in Iraq on false pretenses, their attempt to create a democracy was an abject failure and somehow in ousting one of the worlds most evil dictators they made it worse. They had more support in Afghanistan and failed just as hard. Are we as a world returning to where powerful people use religion to justify evil acts that make themselves more rich and powerful (not that it ever really went away), and empires rise and fall with human rights completely ignored? Can the world even survive this kind of thing with how far technology has gotten? What kind of environmental damage is being done in Ukraine, Syria and now Gaza? I'm sure it dwarfs what is still happening in China, India, the US and basically everywhere. We have big collective, possibly world ending, problems that we can't even talk and debate about, because it seems like just about everyone feels the need to "pick a side" then they apologize away all the evil their own side does. And how Hamas became part of the left absolutely boggles my mind, they have zero shared values. Shared values matter nothing to people anymore, its not a left problem (hello the Donald and hard core Christians) its a world wide everyone problem. Thanks for taking the time to put that together.
I have said lots that I think the IDF is very callous in their war with Hamas. They show no regard for the Palestinian people. I'm not sure why I have to reiterate it over and over. I also do not believe the Palestinians are a problematic people in general. I do believe that Hamas is evil. I do believe that religious extremism is a huge problem in the world. And that is true in most nations.
So I will say, I do believe you and believe this, I think I've done a poor job of explaining why I harp on this matter. I will, moving forward, bear this in mind, with that said, my criticism is one I would like to see improvement on and here is why. In the event you say something that can be misconstrued in a malicious manner and others digest that interpretation, while I would not hold you at fault, I would be saddened by that outcome. It's easy to avoid. I see this a lot in America, where words are used in Media headlines to describe two events that playout similarly but paint them in completely different ways. With a few exceptions whose posts are rare, I do not find this thread guilty of the level of racism I find in the general public in the West, and while I acknowledge that this thread is rather innocent of that crime, it remains a sore spot and a hot button issue for me personally. I am not asking you to prove your morals, I'm asking you to phrase your points in a way that demonstrate that, and if I see an unintentional slip up, I'm gonna call it out (you aren't the first I've called out in this thread, though others have been far more overt by intentionally saying disgusting things) because i find you to be a noteworthy voice here, and one with impact and sway. That's probably unfair to you, and I should be better about holding everyone to the same standard, some posts just happen to pop out more, and I miss things. Regarding religious extremism, I don't know if I view it as problematic as you do. My view is that religious extremism in the modern day is a direct reaction and symptom to what I view as greater issues, and addressing those would largely solve the extremism. I don't know exactly what you feel about that so I won't assume. Not sure if this thread is the place to ask about that in particular (though in my mind it does eventually connect).
A story that didn't get any mention on this thread, which is not a big deal since it is not directly related, is that ISIS sent suicide bombers to kill a bunch of people at a funeral for a Iran commander who was killed by Israel. I think Iran and is a huge problem in funding terror and participating and yet I didn't cheer. The people at funeral do not deserve to die by suicide bomb regardless of me disagreeing that they should attend. And how could I cheer for anything ISIS does they are just the different side of the same coin with Hamas. ISIS "winning" does not help anyone, even if they destroy a group I despise.
I am glad to hear this, my view is similar.
This is very round about and maybe not that well thought out, but what I'm trying to get at is talking like its Israel or Israeli's causing the major problems is not accurate. It is the far right within Israel that is, and is powered by religious extremists and that group is growing not shrinking. Yelling hate towards Israel is not going to change that, it might even accelerate it. Palestine has basically been over run by religious hate groups, Syria is having a civil war between multiple hate factions, Iran is run by them, Lebanon is either run by one of these groups or to scared to do anything about it, the Taliban won and they are spreading in there part of the world.
The way Israel is going about dealing with it is wrong, partly because they are not dealing with the problem internally and largely because their callous actions are feeding the problem not lessoning it. But what is the solution? The US tried their own ham fisted attempt in Iraq on false pretenses, their attempt to create a democracy was an abject failure and somehow in ousting one of the worlds most evil dictators they made it worse. They had more support in Afghanistan and failed just as hard.
I will agree that the average Israeli citizen hasn't done anything wrong. I don't have pure numbers and polls from Israel, so perhaps my assumptions are incorrect. I've only read articles and seen videos displaying pure hate (from politicians and layman alike) but I don't mind admitting that the sample size is biased and there's likely more to the story. From what I have seen, depending on what you are referring to as alt-right in this regard, I don't know that I agree the issue, from those in political power is as contained as you describe, that said the last time I had looked into the matter, Benny Gantz was with Blue and White and was described as the liberal candidate compared to Bibi, and so far as Palestine is concerned, he didn't seem much better. Perhaps there are new candidates and politicians who can bring in a brighter future, I hope so, I'm not aware of them, but if they exist, please educate me. To answer your question, to me the solution relates to what I alluded to earlier. I think the problem is a lot of what we see is a reaction to foreign intervention in the region. Take America for example, with Biden's now infamous moment in Congress essentially admitting that America's alliance and support for Israel has been determined by Israel's ability to destablize the region. I think there needs to be less intervention and more of a handsoff approach. I don't think that will immediately make everything perfect, but it's an important step. Are we as a world returning to where powerful people use religion to justify evil acts that make themselves more rich and powerful (not that it ever really went away), and empires rise and fall with human rights completely ignored? Can the world even survive this kind of thing with how far technology has gotten? What kind of environmental damage is being done in Ukraine, Syria and now Gaza? I'm sure it dwarfs what is still happening in China, India, the US and basically everywhere. We have big collective, possibly world ending, problems that we can't even talk and debate about, because it seems like just about everyone feels the need to "pick a side" then they apologize away all the evil their own side does. And how Hamas became part of the left absolutely boggles my mind, they have zero shared values. Shared values matter nothing to people anymore, its not a left problem (hello the Donald and hard core Christians) its a world wide everyone problem. I mean, the powerful have always blinded the masses any way they can use deception and distractions, scapegoating the innocent to their own benefit. I agree that justice is justice, and evil should be called out regardless of where it is coming from. I think people defending Hamas are falling into a trap. I think Hamas is evil, and we may disagree here, but I think the IDF is evil as well. There are civilians across the board in the region being ideologically driven to the margins and damned physically, emotionally and mentally. Thank you for taking the time, and there is no doubt that I do get defensive and frustrated then lash out at times unfairly. Sometimes I even feel bad about, but other times not so much. However, I do appreciate the kind words. I'm not sure what greater issue you are speaking of, but if it is income disparity than I would largely agree. With the caveat that I do not think religious extremism is that easy to unwind. If it is something else, I would have to hear the rational. My guess on whether it is appropriate for this thread or not, it likely it would be fine as long as it is well thought out, well reasoned, follows threads rules then it would OK. Many times threads go on strange tangents (and that is often them at their best) with moderators not having any issues while the posts are quality. I would have to dig up some polls that I've posted in the past and I have not really read much of them post Oct 7th. But I also think that people need to have at least some empathy to the great tragedy that Israel endured. It was worse than 9/11 in many ways, way more personal (and by that I mean murdering in close quarters, people looking others in the eyes while they torture, raped and murdered) and look at the collective rage and grief that America went through. Look at the sympathy and support they received basically globally. Compare that to Israel, where in this thread (which I agree with you is better than the general public in many ways) people were already basically fantasizing about what awful things Israel was going to do in great detail with a mere hand wave about what had been done to them. Even now, I'm not sure if you read Desantis's comments, but he suggests that if Barbados was firing rockets at Florida he would wipe them off the face of the earth. People are acting as if Israel's actions are uniquely evil and I don't see that as the case. From the people I interact with where I live, the people I read on the internet, politicians and so on, I see it as sadly "normal". As for good politicians to follow and support you would need someone with a much more detailed view. Cerebrate1 would likely be able to comment. I only really look at things from a 10,000 ft view and then read about the major events. Everything else I'm just playing catch up on. I would be scared to suggest someone I have no fully researched only to have some awful comment they made be unearthed and then go through that mess. The only politician I know well enough to talk about is Bibi and I despise him. I do not think the IDF is evil, though their are likely people in the IDF leadership that I would consider that. The same way I do not think the Vietnam vets were evil. Lots of people under the duress of combat, the psychological pressure that militaries place on their soldiers to comply and disregard their regular morals is well tested and works on most people. I keep using the word Callous because I think it is very apt. They have decided enough is enough and they are going to do whatever it takes from a force perspective to destroy them. I disagree with that approach in multiple ways, firstly the cost is way to high, innocents are dying in huge numbers including babies. Next, I don't think they will succeed in destroying them, short term they could cripple but I believe there is a greater chance of them being stronger. others too but those are the big ones. What does frustrate me though is no one here is putting any blame for the massive casualties on Hamas. Ukraine is moving civilians away from the fighting, they are not asking them to stay and putting their bases in hospitals, schools and daycares. This should not be an effective way to gain support from the world. The human shield strategy is awful. When the war crimes were written I do not believe that the writers envisioned a group that would purposefully sacrifice their most vulnerable citizens so they basically made those targets off limits as long as they were not used militarily. Now you have a case where the IDF can attack these places under the strict reading of the laws and Hamas is purposefully trying to get as many dead innocents as possible. I also agree with you that destabilizing is not a good plan, I'm not sure it has ever worked out well for humanity. I do however think (extremely unpopularly) that Israel's values, Israeli's values more closely match mine than any other country or group in the area. I believe that with the right leadership they could truly be a beacon of good in the area (not that they are one to be clear). I wish another country and populous would step up, but in the people defense almost every other country is some form of awful dictatorship where they are just trying to survive. I've also read how for these reasons other people hold them to a higher standard, which I believe is fair. But it is not fair to hate them for not reaching it. I'm not sure how many of the posters here would have the same feelings if a close family member was raped, tortured, murdered and then the people guilty of that were massively celebrated. And I think your final sentence is bang on, and I have no idea how to fix it but it will take time. Quite a long time ago I watched a documentary that took children from Israel and Palestine and put them together to see what would happen. They sure hated each other at first, as they were taught to. But it really did not take that long until they realized that they were all just kids, no one was evil and they became friends had fun and all that. That sort of thing gives me hope, what doesn't is that the adults in power are hell bent on hate. Apologies for run-ons and mistakes. edit: my bad Desantis was talking about blowing up Bahamas and not Barbados. https://www.businessinsider.in/politics/world/news/ron-desantis-keeps-talking-about-blowing-up-the-bahamas/articleshow/106426259.cms Sorry if I hadn't made clear, income disparity is certainly part of it, but so is Foreign/US intervention, which in tandem with corrupt leaders, does create income disparity and poverty in the region. Certainly here in the states I'd point to income disparity as the chief contributor to crime. I think regarding the reaction to 10/7 that's a good point to bring up, and this is a heinous mistake I personally am seriously guilty of (and I know plenty of Muslims in the West feel the same), where whenever some demon succeeds in creating harm and misery one of the first thoughts that creeps up is "oh fuck was it a Muslim" or "oh fuck the blowback on this is gonna suck". Which is fucked. Those problems have their place, but they should not take precedent over the crime that has actually already occurred. Israeli civilians never deserved Oct 7 and never should have had to endure what they did. That said, not to minimize that atrocity, if that is the reaction you have, which is a good reaction to have, I hope you then empathize with Palestinians who have dealt with similar atrocities for decades. In this recent conflict alone i think over 80 families have been completely wiped out, every single person in the immediate family. Over 30,000 dead, 10000 of which are children. That's just in the last three months, I can never stress enough that pre October 7, life wasn't great for Palestinians. People were still being killed, people were still being raped, people we still being imprisoned without cause or trial. That does not excuse retaliation towards civilians, but if we can (and should) have empathy for Israel, the Palestinians deserve the same tenfold. Regarding DeSantis, you have no reason to know this because I don't post in USPMT, but I am very outspoken here in the states. I try to do my part to be politically active and illicit positive change. Frankly foreign policy-wise there are few role models in the American establishment, and every Republican gives me chills. I despise that thinking everywhere. From DeSantis, Haley, Bibi, Geert, Le Pen, Hamas, Bin Laden, Baghdadi, etc. The reason I call the IDF evil is the same that neither of us call Hamas morally justified, as Magic Powers would put it "They think they are morally sound, and have convinced their soldiers to do the same". I'm not convinced the IDF is truly positioned as a defense of civilians but rather an arm of brutal occupation and militaristic expansion. I agree that Hamas has done nothing to help the people it claims to represent. I have no clue where, as your Ukraine example states, they would move Gazans to, but they certainly aren't helping and are instead actively hurting. In an ideal world the current PA, with their purely diplomatic peaceful mission statement would have full sway and authority and they would be successful in their pursuit for liberty and self-actualization. Alternatively if we had a true rebel force resisting occupation we may have a more nuanced discussion, but Hamas doesn't fit that trope. To your point that it's not fair to hate them for not reaching a higher standard for the atrocities they have suffered, sure, but by that logic it is truly a goddamn miracle all of Gaza does not actively militarily assist Hamas with how much they suffer and how often they suffer it. To your final point, I wholeheartedly approve and agree. People hate what they do not know, experience or understand, but are only told to fear. I can personally attest to dozens of people I've encountered who had Islamaphobic notions who then learned after interacting with a real person. Dehumanization is real. It happened in Nazi Germany. I've seen it plenty in Israeli rhetoric post Oct 7 and I have no doubt it happens daily in Gaza as well. People just need to meet others first hand, but it's beautiful what doing so can do. I’m no fan of US foreign policy always doing evil for the “greater good”. But the greater good never seems to happen. I would argue that income disparity is a bigger factor but I think we would mostly agree and it would end up in some sort of chicken or egg style discussion. I of course have tons of sympathy for the Palestinians, more than the Israelis they have it and have it worse for a long time. They have been mistreated for longer than Israel has existed. The “lucky” ones are in Israel’s borders and they still deal with racism, mistreatment and so on. That being said I have no sympathy for Hamas, when you are talking about rape, murder, extrajudicial executions and so on pre Oct 7th they likely committed more than the IDF. (In fact I don’t know of any IDF rape, and if it happened I’m fairly certain it would not be sanctioned and the perpetrator would face consequences). My tone on this thread would be very different if we had a large percentage actively cheering for wiping the Palestinians off the map, for what Hamas has done. Even though most of Hamas is Palestinians I understand that not all Palestinians are Hamas and try to make that clear by writing Hamas. I do even have the tiniest sympathy for Hamas members because they have had horrific lives, the same way I do when I hear about a serial killers awful childhood. None for those members who are pulling the strings and living in mansions riding in yachts mind you. But the rank and file I do, some are probably salvageable, but those that rape and torture or celebrate those acts have probably crossed lines you can’t come back from. I also agree that if Hamas was a liberation army attacking the IDF and trying to protect the Palestinians we would have a different discussion. I’m not sure where they would send them, but certainly they could not build there bases in day cares, shoot people trying to flee, tell civilians specifically not to move to safe areas and so on. Yeah pretty much this, and what makes this conflict so intractable it’s seemingly irresolvable. The very tenor of Hamas’ violence on October 7th rather encapsulates the problems with that particular organisation. Violence is never pain free for the recipient of course, but there were such visceral acts of absolute barbarism that no amount of historic repression can hope to justify them remotely. Although I chime in more frequently with criticisms of Israeli policy, Hamas are maniac zealots and they live next door. The core issue is somehow threading the needle to untether Hamas from influence and control and allow some reasonable folks to take the reins. Which would likely necessitate Israeli concessions, but the time they are least likely to occur is understandably in the aftermath of such a heinous event. Argh, the world sucks sometimes, or well, frequently.
Do you really think the repression is historic ? Considering how how palestinian kids were being killed ny israelis prior to the 10/07, considering how many minors got imprisonned without any judgment for an indefinite time, considering how palestinian cimeteries old of many centuries are destroyed to make public park, I'd say the repression is pretty contemporary.
The war Israel launched against the people of Palestine didn't begin now, that's a given but it never stopped either.
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On January 12 2024 04:17 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2024 03:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 03:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 12 2024 03:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 01:53 JimmiC wrote:I think the thought is that if they worked together opinions would change to where they were before. Otherwise you're in a situation where Hamas wants to kill everyone in Israel and take over. In that case at some point this happens again only worse. And yes worse is possible. I don't really know Israeli poll numbers. But if 75% Palestinians support the attack of Oct. 7, and same number are NOT in support of two-state solution, what choice does Israel have when apparently 3/4 of Palestinians seem to basically support HAMAS and their (Israel) land has been attacked? Do the attacks (war) end, if they come with terms that the "western world agrees with" (that's what we are talking about right? because the arab world is never going to be good with any terms anyways long term).. I do not have good answers for you. From the start I've been asking for anyone with good solutions on how Israel can exist and peace can exist. No good answers have come likely because it is a incredibly difficult and complex situation. My personal hope is that if Israel actually starts acting like the good guy better options come up. It appeared like a two state solution was realistic and possible at one point. Does that solve everything? No not even close but it at least makes all the rules of engagement more clear, it would make western support more clear. The big problem is when Hamas explicit goal (along with all their "axis of resistance" (interesting they chose axis) partners) is to kill and remove all of Israel (including the Palestinians that live there) . Their enemy ISIS has that same goal but also both groups want to kill each other. How do you ever have true peace and not just lulls between attacks? I really do not know, maybe taking out the top people? Maybe the top people get sick of all the killing and realize everyone can live a better life and they can be even richer and more powerful if they stop killing each other? I really do not know. There probably is not a good solution, unfortunately. I don't think, if Israel starts acting like a "good guy", that it will do anything better. I think many people here like to promote the assumption that if one side does a "good thing", then the conflict would somehow resolve. From what i have seen, on statistics on those sides, i don't really believe in that. The conflict is unlikely to resolve because neither side has an incentive to go for a resolution. The Palestinians don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because if they capitulate every indication points to Israel will just continue their expansion project, and the Israelis don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because their government wants to expand, we're letting them get away with just about anything they want, and they're obviously winning. It would take a major shift for that to change. I can't let you get away with this post though, because it's a bit weird to be all realpolitik and declare that there are no good guys and it would be naive to expect good things and all, but then to side with and defend one of the aggressive forces like you've been doing.
that's just not true, you know..
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On January 12 2024 05:17 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2024 04:17 Nebuchad wrote:On January 12 2024 03:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 03:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 12 2024 03:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 01:53 JimmiC wrote:I think the thought is that if they worked together opinions would change to where they were before. Otherwise you're in a situation where Hamas wants to kill everyone in Israel and take over. In that case at some point this happens again only worse. And yes worse is possible. I don't really know Israeli poll numbers. But if 75% Palestinians support the attack of Oct. 7, and same number are NOT in support of two-state solution, what choice does Israel have when apparently 3/4 of Palestinians seem to basically support HAMAS and their (Israel) land has been attacked? Do the attacks (war) end, if they come with terms that the "western world agrees with" (that's what we are talking about right? because the arab world is never going to be good with any terms anyways long term).. I do not have good answers for you. From the start I've been asking for anyone with good solutions on how Israel can exist and peace can exist. No good answers have come likely because it is a incredibly difficult and complex situation. My personal hope is that if Israel actually starts acting like the good guy better options come up. It appeared like a two state solution was realistic and possible at one point. Does that solve everything? No not even close but it at least makes all the rules of engagement more clear, it would make western support more clear. The big problem is when Hamas explicit goal (along with all their "axis of resistance" (interesting they chose axis) partners) is to kill and remove all of Israel (including the Palestinians that live there) . Their enemy ISIS has that same goal but also both groups want to kill each other. How do you ever have true peace and not just lulls between attacks? I really do not know, maybe taking out the top people? Maybe the top people get sick of all the killing and realize everyone can live a better life and they can be even richer and more powerful if they stop killing each other? I really do not know. There probably is not a good solution, unfortunately. I don't think, if Israel starts acting like a "good guy", that it will do anything better. I think many people here like to promote the assumption that if one side does a "good thing", then the conflict would somehow resolve. From what i have seen, on statistics on those sides, i don't really believe in that. The conflict is unlikely to resolve because neither side has an incentive to go for a resolution. The Palestinians don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because if they capitulate every indication points to Israel will just continue their expansion project, and the Israelis don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because their government wants to expand, we're letting them get away with just about anything they want, and they're obviously winning. It would take a major shift for that to change. I can't let you get away with this post though, because it's a bit weird to be all realpolitik and declare that there are no good guys and it would be naive to expect good things and all, but then to side with and defend one of the aggressive forces like you've been doing. that's just not true, you know..
No obviously I don't know that it's not true otherwise I wouldn't have said it why do people talk like this on the internet I'll never understand.
If you have something to say you can just say it you don't have to introduce the threat that you might answer in the future.
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On January 12 2024 05:26 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2024 05:17 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 04:17 Nebuchad wrote:On January 12 2024 03:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 03:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 12 2024 03:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 01:53 JimmiC wrote:I think the thought is that if they worked together opinions would change to where they were before. Otherwise you're in a situation where Hamas wants to kill everyone in Israel and take over. In that case at some point this happens again only worse. And yes worse is possible. I don't really know Israeli poll numbers. But if 75% Palestinians support the attack of Oct. 7, and same number are NOT in support of two-state solution, what choice does Israel have when apparently 3/4 of Palestinians seem to basically support HAMAS and their (Israel) land has been attacked? Do the attacks (war) end, if they come with terms that the "western world agrees with" (that's what we are talking about right? because the arab world is never going to be good with any terms anyways long term).. I do not have good answers for you. From the start I've been asking for anyone with good solutions on how Israel can exist and peace can exist. No good answers have come likely because it is a incredibly difficult and complex situation. My personal hope is that if Israel actually starts acting like the good guy better options come up. It appeared like a two state solution was realistic and possible at one point. Does that solve everything? No not even close but it at least makes all the rules of engagement more clear, it would make western support more clear. The big problem is when Hamas explicit goal (along with all their "axis of resistance" (interesting they chose axis) partners) is to kill and remove all of Israel (including the Palestinians that live there) . Their enemy ISIS has that same goal but also both groups want to kill each other. How do you ever have true peace and not just lulls between attacks? I really do not know, maybe taking out the top people? Maybe the top people get sick of all the killing and realize everyone can live a better life and they can be even richer and more powerful if they stop killing each other? I really do not know. There probably is not a good solution, unfortunately. I don't think, if Israel starts acting like a "good guy", that it will do anything better. I think many people here like to promote the assumption that if one side does a "good thing", then the conflict would somehow resolve. From what i have seen, on statistics on those sides, i don't really believe in that. The conflict is unlikely to resolve because neither side has an incentive to go for a resolution. The Palestinians don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because if they capitulate every indication points to Israel will just continue their expansion project, and the Israelis don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because their government wants to expand, we're letting them get away with just about anything they want, and they're obviously winning. It would take a major shift for that to change. I can't let you get away with this post though, because it's a bit weird to be all realpolitik and declare that there are no good guys and it would be naive to expect good things and all, but then to side with and defend one of the aggressive forces like you've been doing. that's just not true, you know.. No obviously I don't know that it's not true otherwise I wouldn't have said it why do people talk like this on the internet I'll never understand. If you have something to say you can just say it you don't have to introduce the threat that you might answer in the future.
Palestinians won't resolve, or have incentive to resolve to conflict because they don't want to.
Did you look at what i posted about Palestinian mindset on the conflict?
Israel won't resolve the conflict because they have been attacked, and they will be attacked even if they do. Maybe not tomorrow, but history has shown at some point it always happens.
EDIT: I guess you can say that "because neither side has an incentive to go for a resolution"
But it's a shitty thing to say, when one side has been attacked out of nowhere basically for the last 60 years, and other side are just "hooraying" for the attackers...
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On January 12 2024 05:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2024 05:26 Nebuchad wrote:On January 12 2024 05:17 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 04:17 Nebuchad wrote:On January 12 2024 03:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 03:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 12 2024 03:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 01:53 JimmiC wrote:I think the thought is that if they worked together opinions would change to where they were before. Otherwise you're in a situation where Hamas wants to kill everyone in Israel and take over. In that case at some point this happens again only worse. And yes worse is possible. I don't really know Israeli poll numbers. But if 75% Palestinians support the attack of Oct. 7, and same number are NOT in support of two-state solution, what choice does Israel have when apparently 3/4 of Palestinians seem to basically support HAMAS and their (Israel) land has been attacked? Do the attacks (war) end, if they come with terms that the "western world agrees with" (that's what we are talking about right? because the arab world is never going to be good with any terms anyways long term).. I do not have good answers for you. From the start I've been asking for anyone with good solutions on how Israel can exist and peace can exist. No good answers have come likely because it is a incredibly difficult and complex situation. My personal hope is that if Israel actually starts acting like the good guy better options come up. It appeared like a two state solution was realistic and possible at one point. Does that solve everything? No not even close but it at least makes all the rules of engagement more clear, it would make western support more clear. The big problem is when Hamas explicit goal (along with all their "axis of resistance" (interesting they chose axis) partners) is to kill and remove all of Israel (including the Palestinians that live there) . Their enemy ISIS has that same goal but also both groups want to kill each other. How do you ever have true peace and not just lulls between attacks? I really do not know, maybe taking out the top people? Maybe the top people get sick of all the killing and realize everyone can live a better life and they can be even richer and more powerful if they stop killing each other? I really do not know. There probably is not a good solution, unfortunately. I don't think, if Israel starts acting like a "good guy", that it will do anything better. I think many people here like to promote the assumption that if one side does a "good thing", then the conflict would somehow resolve. From what i have seen, on statistics on those sides, i don't really believe in that. The conflict is unlikely to resolve because neither side has an incentive to go for a resolution. The Palestinians don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because if they capitulate every indication points to Israel will just continue their expansion project, and the Israelis don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because their government wants to expand, we're letting them get away with just about anything they want, and they're obviously winning. It would take a major shift for that to change. I can't let you get away with this post though, because it's a bit weird to be all realpolitik and declare that there are no good guys and it would be naive to expect good things and all, but then to side with and defend one of the aggressive forces like you've been doing. that's just not true, you know.. No obviously I don't know that it's not true otherwise I wouldn't have said it why do people talk like this on the internet I'll never understand. If you have something to say you can just say it you don't have to introduce the threat that you might answer in the future. Palestinians won't resolve, or have incentive to resolve to conflict because they don't want to. Did you look at what i posted about Palestinian mindset on the conflict? Israel won't resolve the conflict because they have been attacked, and they will be attacked even if they do. Maybe not tomorrow, but history has shown at some point it always happens. EDIT: I guess you can say that "because neither side has an incentive to go for a resolution" But it's a shitty thing to say, when one side has been attacked out of nowhere basically for the last 60 years, and other side are just "hooraying" for the attackers...
Out of nowhere is a pretty disingenuous way to describe what has occurred. Palestine has been eating shit for years. To not recognize there would be violent retaliation in response to that is I find, a tad shortsighted.
Unless I have it mixed up and the hoorayers refers to the Israelis who set up lawn chairs on the beach to watch the bombs hit Gaza like fireworks.
If your point was being vague on purpose, well played.
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On January 12 2024 05:53 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2024 05:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 05:26 Nebuchad wrote:On January 12 2024 05:17 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 04:17 Nebuchad wrote:On January 12 2024 03:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 03:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 12 2024 03:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 01:53 JimmiC wrote:I think the thought is that if they worked together opinions would change to where they were before. Otherwise you're in a situation where Hamas wants to kill everyone in Israel and take over. In that case at some point this happens again only worse. And yes worse is possible. I don't really know Israeli poll numbers. But if 75% Palestinians support the attack of Oct. 7, and same number are NOT in support of two-state solution, what choice does Israel have when apparently 3/4 of Palestinians seem to basically support HAMAS and their (Israel) land has been attacked? Do the attacks (war) end, if they come with terms that the "western world agrees with" (that's what we are talking about right? because the arab world is never going to be good with any terms anyways long term).. I do not have good answers for you. From the start I've been asking for anyone with good solutions on how Israel can exist and peace can exist. No good answers have come likely because it is a incredibly difficult and complex situation. My personal hope is that if Israel actually starts acting like the good guy better options come up. It appeared like a two state solution was realistic and possible at one point. Does that solve everything? No not even close but it at least makes all the rules of engagement more clear, it would make western support more clear. The big problem is when Hamas explicit goal (along with all their "axis of resistance" (interesting they chose axis) partners) is to kill and remove all of Israel (including the Palestinians that live there) . Their enemy ISIS has that same goal but also both groups want to kill each other. How do you ever have true peace and not just lulls between attacks? I really do not know, maybe taking out the top people? Maybe the top people get sick of all the killing and realize everyone can live a better life and they can be even richer and more powerful if they stop killing each other? I really do not know. There probably is not a good solution, unfortunately. I don't think, if Israel starts acting like a "good guy", that it will do anything better. I think many people here like to promote the assumption that if one side does a "good thing", then the conflict would somehow resolve. From what i have seen, on statistics on those sides, i don't really believe in that. The conflict is unlikely to resolve because neither side has an incentive to go for a resolution. The Palestinians don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because if they capitulate every indication points to Israel will just continue their expansion project, and the Israelis don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because their government wants to expand, we're letting them get away with just about anything they want, and they're obviously winning. It would take a major shift for that to change. I can't let you get away with this post though, because it's a bit weird to be all realpolitik and declare that there are no good guys and it would be naive to expect good things and all, but then to side with and defend one of the aggressive forces like you've been doing. that's just not true, you know.. No obviously I don't know that it's not true otherwise I wouldn't have said it why do people talk like this on the internet I'll never understand. If you have something to say you can just say it you don't have to introduce the threat that you might answer in the future. Palestinians won't resolve, or have incentive to resolve to conflict because they don't want to. Did you look at what i posted about Palestinian mindset on the conflict? Israel won't resolve the conflict because they have been attacked, and they will be attacked even if they do. Maybe not tomorrow, but history has shown at some point it always happens. EDIT: I guess you can say that "because neither side has an incentive to go for a resolution" But it's a shitty thing to say, when one side has been attacked out of nowhere basically for the last 60 years, and other side are just "hooraying" for the attackers... Out of nowhere is a pretty disingenuous way to describe what has occurred. Palestine has been eating shit for years. To not recognize there would be violent retaliation in response to that is I find, a tad shortsighted. Unless I have it mixed up and the hoorayers refers to the Israelis who set up lawn chairs on the beach to watch the bombs hit Gaza like fireworks. If your point was being vague on purpose, well played.
I don't understand any of this.
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While continuing my journey to understand this dynamic, I was discussing it with a friend and made a hilarious connection.
People who follow this conflict through tweets and headlines love to frame it as "colonialism" or some sort of unnatural disruption. The general accusation is that Palestine is some sort of eternal cornerstone of indigenous identity and that Jews relied on their evil imperialist allies to mirror the events of Europeans wiping out native Americans.
As I described here: https://tl.net/forum/general/573090-things-arent-peaceful-in-palestine?page=179#3562
There is an easy reference to be made to Palestine's creation.
Version 1.0 of the Israel/Judah/etc was around 900 BC
Eventually Jews got back what was then called Judea. Same'ish area with trims here and there.
Later on, after Jews tried to rebel against Romans, 1.6 million Jews were killed, exiled, and sold into slavery, and Judea was renamed as "Syria Palaestina". But even after that happened, Jews did not become a minority in Palestine until around 400 CE.
The idea that an extensive erasure campaign against Jews, including renaming Judea to further erase the identity, was what came before Palestine makes it feel remarkably dishonest when people try to frame Palestine as some sort of historic cornerstone. Not only were Jews and the identity of Judah/Israel/Judea established as large nations in exactly that region way before Palestine, but they continued to live there ever since. Its not like Jews were spending most of their time in Japan and then suddenly they decided the middle east might have nice weather.
In the post I linked above, I describe how this region was conquered numerous times and lots of different folks came came and went. Giving Jews the least possible credit, it could be described as "actively contested" territory since 900 BC. But the idea that Jews are in any way some sort of foreign, unnatural, or artificial presence in the region is hilarious.
Jews have been fighting for this land for a super, super long time. To the point where I still say its best to wrap things up and just move to North Dakota. But it needs to be abundantly clear that if there is any sort of "historic claim" to this land, there is no world where it is "Palestinian" rather than "Jewish". Its not like Jews just had a single kingdom and that was it. By my count, there have been 3 separate, major Jewish kingdoms in the region since 900 BC.
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On January 12 2024 06:08 Mohdoo wrote:While continuing my journey to understand this dynamic, I was discussing it with a friend and made a hilarious connection. People who follow this conflict through tweets and headlines love to frame it as "colonialism" or some sort of unnatural disruption. The general accusation is that Palestine is some sort of eternal cornerstone of indigenous identity and that Jews relied on their evil imperialist allies to mirror the events of Europeans wiping out native Americans. As I described here: https://tl.net/forum/general/573090-things-arent-peaceful-in-palestine?page=179#3562There is an easy reference to be made to Palestine's creation. Version 1.0 of the Israel/Judah/etc was around 900 BC Eventually Jews got back what was then called Judea. Same'ish area with trims here and there. Later on, after Jews tried to rebel against Romans, 1.6 million Jews were killed, exiled, and sold into slavery, and Judea was renamed as "Syria Palaestina". But even after that happened, Jews did not become a minority in Palestine until around 400 CE. The idea that an extensive erasure campaign against Jews, including renaming Judea to further erase the identity, was what came before Palestine makes it feel remarkably dishonest when people try to frame Palestine as some sort of historic cornerstone. Not only were Jews and the identity of Judah/Israel/Judea established as large nations in exactly that region way before Palestine, but they continued to live there ever since. Its not like Jews were spending most of their time in Japan and then suddenly they decided the middle east might have nice weather. In the post I linked above, I describe how this region was conquered numerous times and lots of different folks came came and went. Giving Jews the least possible credit, it could be described as "actively contested" territory since 900 BC. But the idea that Jews are in any way some sort of foreign, unnatural, or artificial presence in the region is hilarious. Jews have been fighting for this land for a super, super long time. To the point where I still say its best to wrap things up and just move to North Dakota. But it needs to be abundantly clear that if there is any sort of "historic claim" to this land, there is no world where it is "Palestinian" rather than "Jewish". Its not like Jews just had a single kingdom and that was it. By my count, there have been 3 separate, major Jewish kingdoms in the region since 900 BC.
You do realise that a lot of those people who were Jews in Roman times and before converted to Islam and are now called Palestinians, right? It's not as if anything distinguishses the modern-day Palestinians and modern-day Mizrahi jews other than what God they believe in.
The reason people call it colonialism is because the large population influx after 1947 is from "settlers" who have no ties to the middle-east at all beyond some vague idea about the promised land. Would you be as willing to agree with a few million Irish Americans showing up in Kerry to caim they have a right to half the land there because a few centuries ago their ancestors were from there?
Now I'm not saying the modern-day Israelis don't have a right to live there. Most were born there and have as much right to live there as modern-day Palestinians. Not less, but not more either. They need to share. Neither side wants to do that...
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On January 12 2024 05:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2024 05:53 Cricketer12 wrote:On January 12 2024 05:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 05:26 Nebuchad wrote:On January 12 2024 05:17 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 04:17 Nebuchad wrote:On January 12 2024 03:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 03:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 12 2024 03:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 01:53 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
I think the thought is that if they worked together opinions would change to where they were before. Otherwise you're in a situation where Hamas wants to kill everyone in Israel and take over. In that case at some point this happens again only worse. And yes worse is possible. I don't really know Israeli poll numbers. But if 75% Palestinians support the attack of Oct. 7, and same number are NOT in support of two-state solution, what choice does Israel have when apparently 3/4 of Palestinians seem to basically support HAMAS and their (Israel) land has been attacked? Do the attacks (war) end, if they come with terms that the "western world agrees with" (that's what we are talking about right? because the arab world is never going to be good with any terms anyways long term).. I do not have good answers for you. From the start I've been asking for anyone with good solutions on how Israel can exist and peace can exist. No good answers have come likely because it is a incredibly difficult and complex situation. My personal hope is that if Israel actually starts acting like the good guy better options come up. It appeared like a two state solution was realistic and possible at one point. Does that solve everything? No not even close but it at least makes all the rules of engagement more clear, it would make western support more clear. The big problem is when Hamas explicit goal (along with all their "axis of resistance" (interesting they chose axis) partners) is to kill and remove all of Israel (including the Palestinians that live there) . Their enemy ISIS has that same goal but also both groups want to kill each other. How do you ever have true peace and not just lulls between attacks? I really do not know, maybe taking out the top people? Maybe the top people get sick of all the killing and realize everyone can live a better life and they can be even richer and more powerful if they stop killing each other? I really do not know. There probably is not a good solution, unfortunately. I don't think, if Israel starts acting like a "good guy", that it will do anything better. I think many people here like to promote the assumption that if one side does a "good thing", then the conflict would somehow resolve. From what i have seen, on statistics on those sides, i don't really believe in that. The conflict is unlikely to resolve because neither side has an incentive to go for a resolution. The Palestinians don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because if they capitulate every indication points to Israel will just continue their expansion project, and the Israelis don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because their government wants to expand, we're letting them get away with just about anything they want, and they're obviously winning. It would take a major shift for that to change. I can't let you get away with this post though, because it's a bit weird to be all realpolitik and declare that there are no good guys and it would be naive to expect good things and all, but then to side with and defend one of the aggressive forces like you've been doing. that's just not true, you know.. No obviously I don't know that it's not true otherwise I wouldn't have said it why do people talk like this on the internet I'll never understand. If you have something to say you can just say it you don't have to introduce the threat that you might answer in the future. Palestinians won't resolve, or have incentive to resolve to conflict because they don't want to. Did you look at what i posted about Palestinian mindset on the conflict? Israel won't resolve the conflict because they have been attacked, and they will be attacked even if they do. Maybe not tomorrow, but history has shown at some point it always happens. EDIT: I guess you can say that "because neither side has an incentive to go for a resolution" But it's a shitty thing to say, when one side has been attacked out of nowhere basically for the last 60 years, and other side are just "hooraying" for the attackers... Out of nowhere is a pretty disingenuous way to describe what has occurred. Palestine has been eating shit for years. To not recognize there would be violent retaliation in response to that is I find, a tad shortsighted. Unless I have it mixed up and the hoorayers refers to the Israelis who set up lawn chairs on the beach to watch the bombs hit Gaza like fireworks. If your point was being vague on purpose, well played. I don't understand any of this.
What were you referring to when you said one side has been attacked out of nowhere and the other has "hoorayers"
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On January 12 2024 03:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2024 01:53 JimmiC wrote:I think the thought is that if they worked together opinions would change to where they were before. Otherwise you're in a situation where Hamas wants to kill everyone in Israel and take over. In that case at some point this happens again only worse. And yes worse is possible. I don't really know Israeli poll numbers. But if 75% Palestinians support the attack of Oct. 7, and same number are NOT in support of two-state solution, what choice does Israel have when apparently 3/4 of Palestinians seem to basically support HAMAS and their (Israel) land has been attacked? Do the attacks (war) end, if they come with terms that the "western world agrees with" (that's what we are talking about right? because the arab world is never going to be good with any terms anyways long term)..
The difficulty in assessing how to answer this is the large number of examples of why it is very easy to describe Gaza as victims. Under Nasser's rule, Gaza was the victim of a great deal of brutality conducted by Egypt. Later on, Israel became a big issue for Gaza. Quite frankly, Gaza is perfectly positioned to be a victim for basically forever. Since the one thing this thread has no shortage of is lists of reasons why Gaza is a victim, I won't continue with details. So after you are a victim a billion times, at what point do you just kinda get angry and mean? Hamas was democratically elected because people were angry and mean. The people of Gaza are angry and mean. I don't blame them for being angry and mean.
The problem is that 75% of Gaza love the idea of all Israelis being killed and they want that to happen. They don't want a 2 state solution. That ship has sailed. They want a bunch of Israelis to die. There were plenty of moments in history where peace was possible, but we are absolutely not there anymore.
To make matters worse, the current situation is so frustrating to people who are invested in this topic that they don't even have any desire to engage with the current reality. Watch how many people will reply to this post indicating a 2 state solution was possible 50 years ago or 80 years ago or 100 years ago. Despite the fact that 2 state solutions fell apart for many different reasons, people will focus purely on details which do not have any concrete ability to create a modern solution. Literally just finger pointing. Rather than trying to find a way to deal with the current reality, these people prefer to disengage entirely and focus only on "so who is to blame for 75% of Gaza wanting all of Israel to die?".
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On January 12 2024 05:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2024 05:26 Nebuchad wrote:On January 12 2024 05:17 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 04:17 Nebuchad wrote:On January 12 2024 03:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 03:24 JimmiC wrote:On January 12 2024 03:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 12 2024 01:53 JimmiC wrote:I think the thought is that if they worked together opinions would change to where they were before. Otherwise you're in a situation where Hamas wants to kill everyone in Israel and take over. In that case at some point this happens again only worse. And yes worse is possible. I don't really know Israeli poll numbers. But if 75% Palestinians support the attack of Oct. 7, and same number are NOT in support of two-state solution, what choice does Israel have when apparently 3/4 of Palestinians seem to basically support HAMAS and their (Israel) land has been attacked? Do the attacks (war) end, if they come with terms that the "western world agrees with" (that's what we are talking about right? because the arab world is never going to be good with any terms anyways long term).. I do not have good answers for you. From the start I've been asking for anyone with good solutions on how Israel can exist and peace can exist. No good answers have come likely because it is a incredibly difficult and complex situation. My personal hope is that if Israel actually starts acting like the good guy better options come up. It appeared like a two state solution was realistic and possible at one point. Does that solve everything? No not even close but it at least makes all the rules of engagement more clear, it would make western support more clear. The big problem is when Hamas explicit goal (along with all their "axis of resistance" (interesting they chose axis) partners) is to kill and remove all of Israel (including the Palestinians that live there) . Their enemy ISIS has that same goal but also both groups want to kill each other. How do you ever have true peace and not just lulls between attacks? I really do not know, maybe taking out the top people? Maybe the top people get sick of all the killing and realize everyone can live a better life and they can be even richer and more powerful if they stop killing each other? I really do not know. There probably is not a good solution, unfortunately. I don't think, if Israel starts acting like a "good guy", that it will do anything better. I think many people here like to promote the assumption that if one side does a "good thing", then the conflict would somehow resolve. From what i have seen, on statistics on those sides, i don't really believe in that. The conflict is unlikely to resolve because neither side has an incentive to go for a resolution. The Palestinians don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because if they capitulate every indication points to Israel will just continue their expansion project, and the Israelis don't have an incentive to resolve the conflict because their government wants to expand, we're letting them get away with just about anything they want, and they're obviously winning. It would take a major shift for that to change. I can't let you get away with this post though, because it's a bit weird to be all realpolitik and declare that there are no good guys and it would be naive to expect good things and all, but then to side with and defend one of the aggressive forces like you've been doing. that's just not true, you know.. No obviously I don't know that it's not true otherwise I wouldn't have said it why do people talk like this on the internet I'll never understand. If you have something to say you can just say it you don't have to introduce the threat that you might answer in the future. Palestinians won't resolve, or have incentive to resolve to conflict because they don't want to. Did you look at what i posted about Palestinian mindset on the conflict? Israel won't resolve the conflict because they have been attacked, and they will be attacked even if they do. Maybe not tomorrow, but history has shown at some point it always happens. EDIT: I guess you can say that "because neither side has an incentive to go for a resolution" But it's a shitty thing to say, when one side has been attacked out of nowhere basically for the last 60 years, and other side are just "hooraying" for the attackers...
There's this major inconsistency in this type of worldview where you at the same time profess to believe that you know Israel is doing bad things with sentences like "Even if they were to be the good guy the conflict wouldn't solve" but then we get into the details and you're willing to assert that Israel is just acting in self-defense (and last time around you didn't even want to say they were doing war crimes).
The things that make Israel bad in this conflict are all things that you deny are happening. So why don't you just say that they're good?
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EPT
